Some clarification about Thailand

[grantcart]

Some have made remarks about the red shirts under the mistaken assumption that these protesters have some connection with radical revolutionary forces in Thailand.

This is not true.

As explained and documented below there is a closer relationship among the militant red shirt leadership to the anti communist operations of the CIA than being affiliated with the CPT.

The Communist Party in Thailand was offered an honorable amnesty in the 1980s and with the help of the King there were mass defections under a flag of truce. Cadres were given land and money to return to farm. Many of the students who left after the assault on Thammasat were completely rehabilitated and returned to civilian life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_communist_Party

In 1980 the Thai government adopted a government order, "66/2523", encouraging CPT cadres to defect.<15> Former cadres were eventually granted amnesty.

In March 1981 the Socialist Party of Thailand broke its relation with the CPT, claiming that CPT was controlled by foreign influences.<2>

In April 1981 the CPT leadership proposed the Thai government to initiate peace talks. The Thai government responded that the CPT fighters had to demobilize before any talks could be initiated.<2> In a declaration on October 25, 1981 Major General Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, the director of the Thai Army Operations Department, said that the war against CPT armed forces was approaching its end as all major bases of the PLAT in the North and North-East had been destroyed.<13>

In 1982 the government, under the then-Prime Minister General Prem Tinsulanonda, issued another executive order, 65/2525, offering amnesty to CPT/PLAT fighters.<16>

In 1982-1983 CPT experienced mass defections of its cadres, and its military potential was severely reduced.<15> Many of those that defected in the early 1980s were the students and intellectuals that joined CPT after the 1976 massacre. The defectors generally rejected the Maoist ideological positions of the CPT, arguing that Thailand was emerging as an industrial nation and the peasant war strategy had to be abandoned.<13>


There have been no reports of CPT activity since the beginning of the 1990s. However, the exact fate of the party is not known, and it remains banned to this day.<17>

As a result there are more former communist cadres in the government than there are in the Red Shirts.





The Red Shirts are an openly compensated protest group hired by Taksin the deposed former Prime Minister of Thailand who has had a judgement of B 76 billion against him and his assets seized. He is trying to get the money back and has promised to 'share it' with the red shirts.

Human Rights organizations estimate that Taksin is resonsible for about 3,000 extra judicial killings as prime minister.

The Red Shirts not only don't have former communist cadres among them but are made up in part of reactionary anti communist elements.

The Prime Minister has offered a compromise plan that was accepted by most of the red shirt leadership

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/05/04/politics/Reds-conditionally-agree-to-the-road-map-30128574.html

The red shirts have accepted the road map for reconciliation under four condition, their leader Veera Musigapong said from the Rajprasong rally site

The four conditions are a clear date for the dissolution of Parliament paving way for the November 14 poll, a show of sincerity by stopping all types of intimidation, no amnesty on criminal charges related to terrorism and anti-monarchy offence and immediate stop to involving the monarchy in the political conflict.


Veera said the red-shirt leaders had formed an unanimous decision for the conditional acceptance of the road map for reconciliation in order to prevent further loss of life.


Red-shirt leader Natthawut Saikua said the red shirts were prepared to fight their charges to the fullest extent of the law and that he challenged the government and the authorities to face up to the same legal treatment if found to have involved in the killings of innocent people in the April 10 violence.

A small militant group of Red Shirt leaders are wanted on serious sedition and murder charges including General Khattiaya. He denounced Veera and the other Red Shirt leaders.

General Khattiya has vowed that he would never get up and wants to ignite a civil war.

This morning General Khattiya again denounced the government, the other red shirt leaders and vowed that no one could touch him and thirty minutes later he was taken out by a sniper.

General Khattiya has shown to have some mental instability and is not supported by his own family

FROM THE BARRACKS: 'Seh Daeng' - a clowning soldier not to be laughed at (retrieved 8:50 PM 11/27/2008). The article says that "his only daughter, Khattiyar, 27, ironically is an ardent supporter of the PAD.... But he was not prepared to go soft on the PAD - believing that one can have another daughter but a shattered nation cannot be rebuilt."

Not only is General Khattiya not sympathetic to proressive values he boasts that he was a top CIA operative in killing communists:


Khattiya Sawasdipol (Thai: พลตรี ดร.ขัตติยะ สวัสดิผล; born June 2, 1951), alias Seh Daeng (Thai: เสธ.แดงEnglish: Red Commander), was a major general in the Royal Thai Army, assigned to the Internal Security Operations Command. He claims to have helped the United States spy on North Vietnam during the Vietnam War, and to have taken part in the CIA-financed "Secret War" against the communists in the Plain of Jars, in Laos. Khattiya disguised himself as a Muslim in order to infiltrate rebel groups in Aceh Indonesia.

[Robbien]

1. There is a post in LBN from a DUer living in Thailand which has a different take

SnohoDem (866 posts) Fri May-14-10 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Sorry, it's not that simple.

I live in Thailand, speak Thai fairly well, and know lots of working class people, many of them red shirts, in Ratchaburi province, around Hua Hin and down to Phuket, and up through various parts of Isaan. While there is no doubt Thaksin supplied some of the money for the movement, it has grown beyond Thaksin - actually, it's my fervent hope that it moves far beyond him. Collections are taken every day in northern Thailand to support the protesters. The most radically red shirt town in Thailand is Khon Kaen, not Chiang Mai, Thaksin's hometown.

To think that people would be risking their lives, especially after April 10, Black Saturday, for a few hundred baht a day is a bit silly. Until the blockade, the size of the crowd swelled every night as Bangkok reds (and there are many) came in after work. I know people who have been protesters. I've been to the site. Many people fervently believe in their cause and hope they can make a better country for their kids. Many in the rural areas aren't that poor, but they've seen Bangkok receive so much benefit from Thailand's growth while they've lagged far behind. The battle is economic as well as political. It's not by coincidence that they are occupying an area full of high end shopping malls (and a shopping mall with a McIntosh stereo shop and Ferraris on display seems pretty high end to me).

Look at the name of the group - UDD - United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship - the second D is quite important. Although Thaksin did a lot of terrible things - please don't think I'm an apologist for him - he did one other thing - he awakened the vast rural population to the idea that their vote could count.

After Thaksin was elected twice (something no other PM ever achieved) and then again in a snap election which the Democrats (Abhisit's party) boycotted, he was deposed in the coup of 2006. In the first election after the coup, his party won a majority, but due to irregularities (judged by courts packed by the coup makers) two PMs from the party had to step down, 35 MPs were barred and the Democrats came to power after a deal brokered by the military and involving rather large cash payments to members of the coalition who 'crossed the aisle'.

The red shirt rank and file, while many support Thaksin, are _really_ pissed at the dictator - if you speak Thai and listened to the early speeches (back in March) there was no question who, besides Abhisit, they were telling to 'get out'. The dictator is not the monarch. They are tired of voting people into power and having them removed, when other parties do the same things for which the 'red' politicians are removed and nothing happens. Vote buying happens everywhere - I know a vote broker who has worked for several parties, and money for a vote doesn't assure that the party that paid gets the vote.

(The problem here is that I have almost too much to say - I apologize if I ramble and switch subjects too quickly, and I'm not trying to start a fight, just give the perspective of someone who's been here since shortly after the 2006 coup.)

While Thaksin's HR record is abysmal, Abhisit's is not too great. Learn about the Rohinga (also sp Royhinga) who were set adrift, or the Lao people forcibly repatriated. Thailand's HR record is abysmal. It is a country in which one can spend eighteen years in prison for saying the wrong thing (lese majeste). BTW, LM prosecutions have soared under Abhisit.

For corruption, study the bus deal if nothing else - the Democrats are no cleaner than Phuea Thai (the current incarnation of Thaksin's party). Though they 'got' Thaksin for corruption, that wasn't his real crime - as corrupt as Thailand is, he was just like every other top politician. His real crime was challenging the power structure that's ruled Thailand for the last fifty years or so. He didn't go through the right channels.

Thaksin's economic policies, while far from perfect, worked better than you seem to imply. One of the reasons so many rural people support him is that, in their own words, "My life got better". Unfortunately, his "War on Drugs" was wildly popular. It did have the effect of cleaning up many villages. Also unfortunately, he stopped short of taking out the real bosses - many of whom are Thai generals.

Seh Daeng was not a good guy - look up his history. I hate to rejoice in someone's death (he will probably die in the next 48 hours) but I'll make an exception in his case. It is entirely possible that Seh Daeng's group a) shot first on April 10 b) took out Colonel Romklao's group c) killed red shirts and d) were behind at least some of the M79 attacks that have plagued Bangkok. Seh Daeng was playing his own game. That he may have actually collaborated with hard line red leaders brings the leaders' integrity into question - this has been very much on my mind lately. Without Seh Daeng, there may never have been a massacre on April 10.

For that matter, the red leaders appear to have acted like fools. They had won, then they tried to change the rules of the game. Again, this makes their integrity suspect. I respect the normal working people who support the cause, but think their leaders may be typical Thai politicians.

If all this seems too complicated, sorry, it gets worse. There are lots of players in this game, and lots of things in Thailand that can't be said. Suffice to say that if I've presented a complicated picture, I've barely scratched the surface. The army has divides, the police are mostly red, and several powerful and old politicians are jockeying for power behind the scenes.

As it looks now, I expect the red shirts to be forced out of Bangkok having gained nothing. I'm pretty sure this will lead to something like a 'cold' civil war - more like Northern Ireland than Spain or the USA. It is quite sad, as Thailand is a beautiful country and Thai people away from the tourist areas are some of the kindest people you will meet anywhere in the world. Real Thailand, though a political trainwreck, is a far cry from beaches and bargirls.

Please, if you get your news from The Bangkok Post or The Nation, be aware that these are mouthpieces for the very people the red shirts are fighting. If what you read uses these as a source, and doesn't use other sources, it has the same problem. And Asia Times? As far as I know it's still indirectly owned by Sondhi Limthongkul. Thai news is controlled to the point of absurdity. The Australian Broadcasting Network recently did a piece on Thailand that got their Bangkok bureau shut down for a couple of weeks, and if the reporter returns, he will be charged under the LM laws. Same for at least one reporter from the BBC and an American journalist.

In conclusion, please don't trivialize this as 'bad Thaksin' vs. 'good Abhisit'. There are no good guys at the top here. There are many good people, on both sides, at the bottom.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4381012&mesg_id=4381164

[grantcart]

2. Here are the responses

I lived in Thailand for 20 years (but have been outside for 10) and have passed the Pah 6 literacy test. I have relatives in the Mae Sai area, and Bangkok of course.


1) This is accurate. However like the Tea Party movement in the US they are united against but divided for. The most respected leaders like Veera have already left the movement because control of the movement is still held by Taksin and he has only one thing in mind.

2) If you think that the leaders who are involved are only receiving a few hundred baht then you are mistaken. But it is true that once people became invested in one side or the other then it grew beyond money.

3) Like Peron he has ignited the population. Unfortunately Taksin is something of a meglamaniac and for him it is only about him.

4) As everyone knows Taksin's has developed the most effective vote buying machinery in modern Thai history, and that is saying something. My relatives regularly collected their B 500 and surrendered their ID cards for a day. It was a good investment. Taksin has been found to have taken B 76 Billion and his assets are being seized. That is what these demonstrations are all about.

5) Vote buying does not occur everywhere. It doesn't exist in much of the central region and the South. Vote buying doesn't happen in Bangkok. There is a long tradition of vote buying in the North and Northeast and all political parties that have sizeable numbers of Reps in those areas are involved in vote buying. Taksin came to power with support from both areas however when his true self was identified he lost support in the areas outside of the


Nothing speaks more to the dishonesty of red shirt supporters than the comparison of human rights records. They are night and day different.

Taksin's wasn't "bad" he authorized the extra judicial killing of thousands of people.

Most of them were in the dead of night when Police claimed that the suspect was killed "trying to escape from arrest"

Some were done in the light of day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Thailand_insurgency#Tak_Bai_incident

Hundreds of local people, mostly young men, were arrested. They were made to take off their shirts and lie on the ground. Their hands were tied behind their backs. Later that afternoon, they were thrown by soldiers into trucks to be taken to the Ingkayutthaboriharn army camp in the nearby province of Pattani. The prisoners were stacked five or six deep in the trucks, and by the time the trucks reached their destination five hours later, in the heat of the day, 78 men had suffocated to death.

Abhisit's human rights problem on the other hand? Not accepting the Royhinga or repatriating Lao refugees.

The Thai response has been the same for 30 years. Thailand is happy to give temporary asylum to any refugee that the US or anybody else will give permanent resettlement to.

I posted in depth earlier on the Rohinga problem here http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7937901

Here is the bottom line. Rohinga are a 'stateless' tribe that Burma has long abused. If the US wants to accept a hundred thousand Rohinga then Thailand will give them temporary asylum. Thailand will not give peremanent resettlement to refugees outside of Thailand.

Unless you are advocating that the US should take tens of thousands of refugees then you have the same HR record as Abhisit.



Now much of the rest of the OP we are in agreement. There are no pure angels in Thai politics although the Democrat Party makes the greatest effort to mirror an outside party. All parties receive a kickback (usually 3 %) but that is what makes Taksin seems like a meglamaniac - he wants it all and he won't compromise.

While much of the aspirations that have been used by the leaders of the red shirt are noble Taksin's interest is in getting his B72 billion back and if you speak Thai you heard him openly state that he is going to 'share it' with the red shirts.

The situation has changed dramatically however because a militant group led by Seh Daeng has taken over the site after Red Shirt leaders agreed to the compromise

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/05/04/politics/Reds-conditionally-agree-to-the-road-map-30128574.html

The four conditions are a clear date for the dissolution of Parliament paving way for the November 14 poll, a show of sincerity by stopping all types of intimidation, no amnesty on criminal charges related to terrorism and anti-monarchy offence and immediate stop to involving the monarchy in the political conflict.


Veera said the red-shirt leaders had formed an unanimous decision for the conditional acceptance of the road map for reconciliation in order to prevent further loss of life.


Red-shirt leader Natthawut Saikua said the red shirts were prepared to fight their charges to the fullest extent of the law and that he challenged the government and the authorities to face up to the same legal treatment if found to have involved in the killings of innocent people in the April 10 violence.

Of course after Seh Daeng threatened these leaders of the Red Shirts then they left the movement and renounced the continuation of the protests in Bangkok.



Seh Daeng isn't the only terrible guy that was in the Red Shirts.

Samak Sundaravej had his hands full of hundreds of murdered college students (he died of natural causes last year)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samak_Sundaravej

Following the coup of 6 October 1976, Samak became Minister of the Interior in the administration of Tanin Kraivixien, a royalist anti-Communist with a reputation for honesty. Samak immediately launched a campaign which saw hundreds of alleged leftists, many of whom were writers and other intellectuals, arrested.<7>

In 1979 Samak founded the right-wing Prachakorn Thai Party. In the 1979 General Elections it defeated the incumbent Democrat Party by winning 29 of the 39 seats in Bangkok. In the 1983 General Elections it extended its base to 36 seats, and did not suffer too greatly from the Democrat surge in 1986.<9>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samak_Sundaravej

There has been no greater enemy to the progressive forces in Thailand than Samak over the last 40 years. He is one of the ones responsible for progressives having to flee for their lives and join the communists in the jungle.

Samak was Taksin's choice to take over as PM. This is why the progressive community never embraced the Red Shirts even as their leaders were given token support to progressive policies. It would be as if the black listed actors joined with Senator McCarthy.


Thailand has an 800 year history of compromising through conflict. Even with the Communist Party of Thailand negotiation and compromise is possible.

The reason that Thais are going to be killed today is that Taksin wants to come back and get his money. The politicians who joined the Red Shirts have largely left because they recognize that Taksin refuses to compromise and in doing so is losing support even among those that used to support the red shirts.