"Do you want to pay $10 for a head of lettuce?"

[AllentownJake]

I wish people would stop saying such bullshit. Here is the deal. No one will pay $10 for a head of lettuce if people in this country illegally were paid the minimum wage and entitled to benefits like every other US worker. What would happen, is the executives at the large Agricultural corporation would have to take a pay cut because no one wants to pay $10 for a head of lettuce. The market won't allow for $10 lettuce.

That is simply the truth. The CEOs and other executives of the large businesses that manufacture our food (I'm not going to call it farming, modern farming has been entirely industrialized) would have to take a pay cut. There would be less money for them to lobby and bribe congressman and overall these institutions would be less powerful.

I highly doubt, anyone would accept on here "Do you really want to spend $100 for a T-shirt if slavery is abolished on cotton?" Same deal, the economic system was rotten than, and importing people from another country to work cheaply and cheat them out of the fruits of their labor because you can is morally wrong now. Circumventing US law, designed to give US citizens a basic standard of living by importing people, wrong.

You know, when the UAE imports people from the Philippines to work in their country pays them shitty, treats them like dirt, and abuses their basic human rights we wag our finger and shake our head. Mostly because they are Muslims in my opinion. When the good Christian Agribusinesses do it here with a poorer population south of our border, it is somewhat acceptable because people are worried what their Arugula is going to cost them. Shameful in the UAE, Shameful in the United States.

[Turbineguy]

1. Or....

We'd all do a stint in the Pentagon, after which, we'd think "$10? Must be a sale on!"

[sendero]

2. No...

... but $1.10 I could live with. And that is the increment.

[AllentownJake]

4. I hear the $10 line more often than I want to

and sadly from Democrats defending the status quo of the immigration situation.

[SharonAnn]

29. I respond, "Better that than require people to be slaves and provide for me."

Why can't people see that this is related to slavery, which is supposedly abhorrent in the U.S.A?

Requiring people to work for our benefit without adequate remuneration is requiring slaverly.

[AllentownJake]

32. Well

Human beings (that aren't the slaves) never really have had that big a problem with slavery. Being against it is a relatively rather modern thing if you think about it.

[Adsos Letter]

64. True be that; and even the ones who were (in antebellum US history)

often weren't believers in racial equality.

[zipplewrath]

10. The reality

The reality is that there is a tenuous connection at best between what you pay for something, and what the employees compensation will be. "What the market will bear" tends to define prices, and wages actually.

[AllentownJake]

19. There is a limited amount of what people will pay for something

What each person on the chain of bringing it to the market gets is the debate. Allowing a non-citizen population to be imported to do the labor at a wage set below where the government has determined is a wage a person can have to at minimum feed, clothe, and house themselves adequately allows people on the higher end of the chain to take more than they should. It is cheating the law, pure and simple ;-)

It is not much different than what the UAE does, and is equally harmful to society and disgusting morally.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Who Cares?

I like argula.

:-)

[AllentownJake]

5. America summed up in 5 words nt.

[polichick]

6. $20 for that. :)

[ima_sinnic]

7. ironic sentiment along with that avatar (nt)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. That's Why I Put The Smiley

I literally haven't had argula in two years.

[ima_sinnic]

9. it was the "who cares?" I was talking about

Martin Luther King Jr would have cared very much about the whole issue of workers being exploited on the false notion that to pay them fairly would result in "$10 lettuce."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Oh, The "Who Cares" Was In Gest As Well

I can rememember collecting singatures for fair treatment of farm workers when I was eight years old.

[AllentownJake]

12. Glad it was sarcasm

Little shocked to see that statement from you. I was like, that is out of character. Should have known better.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. I'm Sorry

It was a joke that failed. I was just trying to inject a little levity into the discussion.

Oh, and isn't there a certain gentleman in high office who was complaining about the high cost of argula.

[AllentownJake]

14. Well he does like his Argula

and the latte liberals in the suburbs nodded their heads. I have a great deal of trouble, with the Latte crowd. I'm a dunkin donuts liberal as I would smile at them. Coffee black, two sweet and lows. Keep it simple stupid and generally in most situations the Golden rule applies in two ways. Best policy is the Do unto others thing, in reality in our culture, the person with the Gold rules lets distribute the Gold around a little more ;-)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Like I Said The Last Time I Had It Was About Two Years Ago

Like fresh spinach it is very good with a little cheese and caesar dressing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Yes- My Eating Habits Are Quite Plebeian As Well

~

[northernlights]

60. it's arUgula....sheesh

at least spell it right if you're going to overcharge for it! ;)

[AllentownJake]

62. I hate the stuff

:rofl:

[rhett o rick]

73. What the hell is argula? nm

[Richard Steele]

74. That's the bland tasteless lettuce that rich idiots overpay for.

Sometimes it's not even arugula; They don't know the difference.

They only know that "arugula" sounds classier than "lettuce"
when they say it LOUDLY to impress other idiots seated nearby
in eateries that cater to folk with more money than brains.

[WinkyDink]

82. If ONLY it were bland! It's horribly peppery!

[rhett o rick]

84. Ohhh, arugula not argula. I get it. nm

[Retrograde]

79. An Italian lettuce-like plant

but actually more closely related to cabbage, formerly a staple of poorer people, since it grows like a weed. It has a distinctive bitter taste, which I happen to like, but a lot of people find it too strong for them. It's got a tony cachet because "arugula" sounds a lot better than "that weed out in the garden".

[lumberjack_jeff]

69. +1 for snark. +10 if the misspelling was intentional.

:hi:

[n2doc]

15. Actually what would happen is that there would be an incentive to reduce labor

by mechanization, cutting down on shipping and storage losses, etc., etc. When you pay nothing to your workers it allows for all sorts of slop.

[AllentownJake]

17. Efficiency would rise

and government subsidies for waste would fall I would imagine.

Probably lead to a more effective use of land.

Rome had all the technology for a steam engine, they just had no use for it because they had slaves.

[hunter]

51. I wonder what our society has "all the technology for..?"

We could probably have a twenty hour work week, medical care, good food, good education, and housing for everyone on earth, along with a thriving space program, a healthy natural environment... who knows?... if only we could abandon wage slavery and our cruel primitive economic system.

[Xithras]

50. Indeed, that's one of the reason early Americans were so inventive.

During Albert Einstein's initial travels though America, which included a train ride across the country, he wrote a series of letters to a German newspaper to describe his travels. In one of those letters he discusses the inventiveness of Americans and our differences as compared to Germans, especially when it came to agriculture and industry. He cited the comparatively thin population of the United States (while the population was larger than Germany's, it was spread out over a much larger area) and the corresponding decrease in locally available workforces. He deduced that the lack of available local labor both increased the monetary value of the manual laborers that did exist, and drove farmers to develop machines capable of performing more work with fewer workers. A large farmer in Germany could put the word out and have 50 peasant laborers on his land the next morning. A large farmer in America couldn't.

Like all things in a capitalist society, the value of labor is determined by supply and demand. When supply is high, value drops. When people are cheap, there is no reason to innovate new ways to accomplish laborious tasks.

[baldguy]

20. $10 heads of lettuce - $450/lb beef

What would you buy to eat?

What Americans don't realize is that the food that's available to us is incredibly inexpensive as compared to the rest of the world.

[AllentownJake]

21. If people in agriculture

Were paid the minimum wage, our food prices wouldn't increase significantly, but the CEO of Tysons would decrease.

There were plenty of people lining up to sit in that chair 30 years ago when we didn't have our wage disparity situation, my guess the same number of people will be lining up if he was compensated less as well.

[mstinamotorcity]

22. Personally, I feel your rant

Its like anything they say to people that will protect their corporate dollars, makes more sense to some people than the facts. And it seems like if a person was really concerned about a ten dollar head of lettuce, they would get a one dollar pack of lettuce seeds and some elbow grease. See while you and I and others were watching the systematic loss of jobs and the middle class.We watched them import workers in and jobs out.And nobody was listening until the jobs started disappearing at a rate of half a million a month. Now everyone notices. This is the capitalism that republicans believe in.They say smaller Government, that means less for you and me.

[AllentownJake]

26. We are a society

The value of having Lloyd over at Goldman and Warren Buffet over at Berkshire needs to be assessed with the value of having a civil society.

There will always be a certain amount of inequality in any society. The question is how much is acceptable and how much value do the people who have the higher ends of the wealth add to the rest of the populace.

Frankly, I'm seeing them as parasitic organisms on the national economy right now.

[mstinamotorcity]

58. This is so they

can retain their wealth. Only one percent of the population are in the mega dough club. They would rather have everyone else poor in order to keep their wealth. For years corporate paid politicians told us that they hold the keys to employment and great success. Corporate had politicians tell us that rich people create the jobs and do the hiring and they are the ones who need the tax breaks.So they then get to keep the majority windfall profits they love to post at the end of the year.Go on their little junkets to Rio,Cancun,Las Vegas or some other vacation lala spot.
Yes they are parasites. Well there are only so many people left with a couple of dollars and they are using them to eat and keep a roof over their heads. So the only place they will be able to get money from is themselves and people like them. So it won't be long before they start screaming foul.This will happen when America is on the verge of doing something like in Greece or Thailand. only this time people won't be in their neighborhoods looting and tearing up. See you can't keep putting people at a disadvantage while watching them go hungry,and then tell them to pick them selves up by their boot straps. See the worst thing it is for a parent of a hungry child is to look in their eyes with no food in your hands.

[Bluenorthwest]

23. You claim it is 'shamefull'

To me, it is extremely typical of how straight American society treats those unlike themselves.

[AllentownJake]

24. This is not a new thing in the land of the free and the home of the brave

and the arguments against equal rights for the gay community are equally as easily discounted. The states with more rights for gay citizens seem to have healthier marriages. Not that there is a direct correlation. People who erect social safety nets also tend to be more proactive in treating those that are different than themselves equally.

Societies with social safety nets have marriages that last longer, as economic issues are the primary drivers for couples to fight and separate.

I think not being married to the first person you experiment sexually and allowing people culturally to mature before they choose a partner also has a little to do with that

[Bluenorthwest]

28. Yep. Americans feel that others should 'do' for them

I am supposed to make straight people's marriages 'safe' by not having marriage rights. If we had marriage rights, marriage would lose value, lettuce would be $10 a head, but spouses a dime a dozen. Apparently the straight white 'faith community' is unable to harvest their own food, clean their own toilets, or honor their own 'Sacred' marriages. It all has to be done for them.
My point here is that what you are complaining about is routine, typical, and in fact one of the defining characteristics of American culture. It amazes me that it surprises anyone.

[AllentownJake]

30. Well the most convincing political argument of all time has always been

Those people over there are the reason everything fucking sucks, you are the hard working good people.
Actually trying to solve a problem is hard work, burning someone in effigy is pretty easy.

I mean, this goes back many years to when we used to sacrifice people to appease deities. A wonderful trait we have evolved that prevents us from solving problems and we are all guilty of it from time to time.

If something isn't working right, I look to the people in charge...not the group out of power.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. I think the 'faith community' is still into sacrificing the lives of

others to their notion of a deity. Not many years back, right now. They demand here that we have no rights, in other nations, they are plotting death sentences, right now, today.

[AllentownJake]

49. The funny thing is the guy they say they worship

Said knock that shit off.

[Orsino]

25. "Would you sell your fellow man into bondage for cheaper lettuce?" n/t

[AllentownJake]

27. Well the answer to that question is

The fact that outrage is not the response to the question shows we as a country are morally bankrupt.

[closeupready]

33. I don't agree the you or I are morally bankrupt, but the larger culture is in many ways, this being

a big one, IMO - the idea that we need indentured servants in order to maintain a standard of living which is higher than 95% of the rest of the world.

[AllentownJake]

36. The sick thing is

Our standard of living is a result of not liking slavery for many years.

More people making a decent wage, more economic activity going on. A 1% Rich group can only go to so many restaurants.

[closeupready]

37. That is EXACTLY right.

What you have, in the pro-indentured servitude camp, is many of those at the very top pushing a faulty ideology which often sounds sensible and novel ("heck, why didn't I think of that?"), but in reality serves their own very narrow interests, but not the interests of just about everyone else, and in fact is destructive to society on many levels.

[Orsino]

53. I think it's not so much an ideology that they're pushing...

...as merely wanting to retain the option to sell us out for a momentary gain in stock prices.

Calling mere greed an ideology is exaggeration, at least.

[JVS]

47. You shall not crucify mankind upon a bed of lettuce!

[Adsos Letter]

63. Ah, the perennial presidential candidate...great use of a great speech, btw.

:D

[AllentownJake]

70. I was planning on going for the nomination in 2016 on the cross of Arugula speech nt.

[havocmom]

31. Fuckin-A, AJ

:thumbsup:

[AllentownJake]

59. Glad you enjoy :-)

[Nuclear Unicorn]

34. Slave labor: it keeps prices down

K&R 4 ATJ

[L0oniX]

35. Yes ...let's keep slaves here so we can eat cheap.

:crazy:

[GoneOffShore]

38. I'm already paying $3-4 for a head of lettuce - direct to the farmer

who delivers to my door.

And I live in Philadelphia -

CSA's are pricey, but you know where your food is coming from and you know who's getting the money.

[KittyWampus]

40. THANK YOU for injecting reason into this thread. And your lettuce would be even less expensive

if more of your neighbors did the same.

[GoneOffShore]

45. We're hosting the CSA for this neighborhood.

Have about 14 people buying. Plus he brings in a truck from Lancaster every week that delivers to 5 different locations.

Plus there are other CSA's and farmers markets. Food Trust, Farm to City are two.

[ima_sinnic]

42. I applaud you for that--I too have accepted that I'll pay more for locally grown, organic food,

and will grow when and what I can. I love stopping at farm stands and cruising the farmers markets to try something new.

[AllentownJake]

52. Good for you

I do a fair amount of shopping at the Allentown Farmer's Market. I at least know which retailer is getting the money...though I'll have to look into the food.

[KittyWampus]

39. Without low-wage workers, Agriculture would devolve back into more local scale farms where

families and communities worked on a more sustainable economic and environmental scale.

Edit 0ut unnecessary comment. Sorry.

[AllentownJake]

48. Well that is part of the equation

Why large businesses fight for no change in the way migrant workers are treated. Competition sucks.

[defendandprotect]

43. Excellent . . . and just more of the inane "pony" argument by extension . . .!!

[laughingliberal]

44. K & R nt

[NYC_SKP]

46. A mere 10 cent increase per head of lettuce would double a picker's pay, or more.

The numbers vary, and other labor processes like washing and packing enter into the equation, and I'd be happy to pay 50 cents more per head, but the $10 figure is pure bullshit.

For pickers, a rate of 100 heads per hour is not unreasonable.

A good resource for information regarding labor and processes for different crops here, in PDF: http://www.roxburyfarm.com/pdf_documents/harvest_manual.pdf

:patriot:

[Goblinmonger]

56. But, but, but.....

illegal......brown......jobs from Americans.....illegal.....$10.

Sadly I hear too much of that here on DU and not just from Repubs.

[NYC_SKP]

61. Don't forget that "these are jobs that Americans won't take...."

That has come from both sides over the years.

I don't care who is saying it, though, I just know it isn't true.

Perhaps many Americans won't do these jobs for such shit pay, but even at the low wages there are many Americans who would be happy to do the work.

Jobs like this got me through high school and through college.

Though I quit more than one job when a better one came up.

[AllentownJake]

67. Thanks for that stat

:toast:

[NYC_SKP]

71. Hey!

Keep that PDF link handy, too.

I've got enough experience in ag to know that it's pretty valid and useful when we have discussions about things others don't know a hell of a lot about.

:toast:

[AllentownJake]

72. I view the immigration debate as the slavery debate of our time

We bring people in to work below what they would be paid as citizens. I view it as one of the most important issues we have going on.

It is not fair to the workers or the citizenry and business wants the status quo to hoard wealth.

[One_Life_To_Give]

54. Machine Pick for less

Long before you get to crazy high prices. It will be economical to field automated pickers. Only the relatively cheaper price and higher quality of manual labor picking prevents this.

[NYC_SKP]

55. Not all crops can be machine picked, and there will always be manual labor tasks.

And the machines are operated by "common" laborers at roughly the same dirt low rate.

There are packing jobs and washing jobs and transport jobs, all held by low low pay job-holders, documented or not.

It was my experience driving bank-out wagons and tractor trailers on harvesting operations that allowed me to work an excavator and backhoe at union scale.

Now, even these underground construction jobs are being paid dirt wages.

It should have been the other way around; ag machine operating jobs should have risen toward operating engineers' union scale.

:patriot:

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unapatriciated]

65. and yet another reason for fair pay and workplace standards.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/06/lettuce-recall-e-coli-pos_n_566956.html

[amborin]

66. and California's economy would shut down, as one more example

the California economy runs on the backs of undocumented workers

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. In 1980, crops were picked mostly by legal residents.

So what was the price of tomatoes in 1980? $0.39/lb.

Now that they're picked by illegal workers, the price has gone up 1000%.

http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/80sfood.html

[Warren DeMontague]

75. Enough, with the fucking arugula, already.

That and the latte bullshit is just exceedingly, exceedingly tired.

That said, you're right. Minimum wage and other worker protection laws are meaningless if they don't apply to everyone.

For the record, MY arugula is picked by the world's sexiest smartass.

[AllentownJake]

83. I have friends who fit the stero-type

Driving Range Rovers talking about fuel efficiency, drinking $6 coffees, married older and richer.

I'd be more critical of one in particular if they weren't such damn good organizers.

[Warren DeMontague]

85. I think, given the state of health in this country, we shouldn't be doing anything to discourage the

eating of salad, no matter what kind of lettuce it contains.

[depakid]

76. Aussies don't pay $10 per head of lettuce- and have a look at the wages:

Hourly Rate Snapshot for Farm Worker/Crop Field Jobs

Hourly Rate AU$15.18 - AU$19.79

Overtime AU$15.13 - AU$34.00

[county worker]

77. I hope you read this. The farm workers do not work for the corporate farms.

They are employed by a labor contractor who pays them $8 to $10 per hour with health benefits. The workers have FICA, Medicare, SDI and state and local taxes deducted from their pay. I was the controller of the largest labor contractor in the San Joaquin Valley.

The workers have legal documents or ones that look legal. There is this myth here at DU that all undocumented workers work for cash and below minimum wage. Some do but that is the exception. If an employer violated the state and federal income tax laws the penalties and interest would put them out of business. Most undocumented immigrants get up in the morning, put on their pants and go to jobs just like the rest of us do.

[pa28]

78. Point well made.

The retail market dictates what the cost to the consumer is. When the labor end is squeezed the money simply goes to the profit pool which is then divided up as compensation among the principles of the organization.

Even though a head of lettuce has nothing to do with credit card merchant fees or financial derivatives they always use the same formula to twist the public interest against itself.

[DailyGrind51]

80. Is the lettuce that good?

[Swamp Rat]

81. We'll be eating Soylent Green by the end of this century.

No joke.

[Pryderi]

86. I have a raised bed full of lettuce.