Does anyone else recall when about the only thing we heard about was reducing class size?

[NNN0LHI]

Seemed like that was a huge issue a decade or two ago. Thats the way it was when my kids were in school. Made sense. Smaller classes logically should lead to smarter students. Even most of the politicians were pushing the idea. Everything was all good.

Now all I hear from the same people is about increasing class size.

We have come full circle haven't we?

Don

[AngryAmish]

1. The science tells us that reducing class size doesn't really help.

It does reduce the teacher work load and makes more jobs for teachers. Teachers like that.

[donco6]

2. That's absolutely untrue.

Research shows that class sizes of 13:1 in grades K-3 make a tremendous difference, but that larger classes in later grades don't make as big of an impact.

[AngryAmish]

3. I will accept your point. Larger point remains.

[msongs]

4. let's get even with those teachers and have class sizes of 1000. that'll show em nt

[AngryAmish]

6. ?

[donco6]

9. Sure, but in reality, I've rarely seen a class size less than 28 in all my years.

What teachers complain about is a class size of 33 versus 20-anything. Those three extra kids make a quantum leap of difference in everything to do with a classroom. Really. It's a daily problem - from the number of packets that a curriculum comes in (usually 30, so now you have to scramble to find 3 more from someone every day), to the classroom management (again, behaviour issues accelerate logarithmically when you get past 30 or so), to space (squeezing 3 more desks into an already crowded room, which is different today than in the past. Now we have computer stations that take up this corner, small group stations that take up that corner, storage for materials that aren't purchased centrally anymore, etc. etc.) And on and on. The grading and stuff is just a little part of it.

So yeah, they'd like lower class sizes, but I don't think they're asking for anything outrageous. It really would help them do a better, more focused job.

[AngryAmish]

11. All of that makes sense

We had class sizes growing up in the 33-36 level but I went to Catholic School and the tools of discipline were easier for the teachers back then. Plus the terrible kids got sent to public school.

Many places want to reduce class size to well below 30 but that does not work.

[donco6]

13. Yes. I went to Catholic school, too.

It was a different era, then, fer sure (remembering Sister Rita Claire grabbing me around the neck in the hallway one day, scratching me with her fingernails - you can see the marks on my 4th grade school photo!)

If it were up to me, I'd work to minimize class sizes at K-3 to 20:1 max, then have an average class size (no cap) at 4-8 at about 28 (2 slots for in-and-outs during the year, so really 30:1). At high school, it'd be great to limit to 30 per section. I think we'd be better off with primary being ungraded, but rather leveled so that the kids didn't move into 4th until they were really ready (we have so many monolingual Spanish speakers here who never, ever get to real English fluency . . . they THINK they do, but it's pretty low-level stuff).

I don't believe in class size caps. I can't see them being sustainable. A cap means you have to create another classroom once the enrollment exceeds that cap - an in reality, there often isn't anywhere else for the classroom to be set up. It creates this quantum expenditure (modulars? $25,000 per modular lease, $50,000 for site prep with elec, fire, tech hookups, stair/ramp rental another $800, then outfitting the classroom with tables, chairs, desks, etc. - total for first year $70,000).

Rather than caps, I'd like to see the money put into good quality subs (some of the subs we get are . . . well, you see them in the nasty vids posted here occasionally.) If we could really weed out our pool more quickly, that'd be great.

Anyway, ranting now.

[jayschool]

5. And reducing class size

makes teaching a more desired profession because the workloads aren't so huge. Thus, with more talented teachers, students will get better educations. At least that's another hypothesis.

[AngryAmish]

7. But the data doesn't support that hypothesis

So we try to find other ways to educate our children.

[d_r]

17. Yeah, that isn't true.

Here is information from project star, that was conducted in Tennessee:

http://www.heros-inc.org/star.htm

I'm kind of worried abut what you said here - if you represent people that really think that is true - even though it isn't - no wonder we are having a hard time with the educational system in the US.

[madokie]

8. From the first through the 7 grade

There was 5 girls and 2 boys in my class. We averaged around 48 to 52 students for the whole school, grades 1 thru 8. Three teachers, Man, wife and daughter. Wonderful people they were. My 4th and 5th grade teacher was the daughter, Mary Ruth was what she insisted we called her. She was a polio victim but she never let it get in her way. She played ball with us like the other kids, she was part of our student body in every way except that she was the teacher. We started doing basic algebra in the 4th grade and advanced with each new year. Needless to say all of us kids in my family and from our neighborhood are all mostly good at math.

[stray cat]

10. It didn't solve the problems

[C_Lawyer09]

12. I don't know the real deal regarding class size

I really feel that teachers have been slowly but consistenly relegated to a place of obscurity within their own classrooms. My gut feeling is, similar to much of my experience in the military; The more control teachers have over curriculum and classroom management, have the ear of the admin. etc. The more successful the process. One motivated and dedicated teacher will probably do a better job with 40 kids than a burnout with 10. How can a teacher be passionate about their subject if they are not allowed the latitude to manage their own teaching style?

[slackmaster]

14. There were 42 students in my 1st grade class

I started Kindergarten that year, and got moved into 1st because I could already read and write and do arithmetic.

I joined a class that already had four other boys with the same first name as mine.

:D

[NNN0LHI]

16. Think I was in third grade when they moved me into what they called an "advanced" class back then

They did it during the middle of the school year. I went into the new class not knowing anyone. We were saying the Pledge of Allegiance in my old regular class. When I moved into the new class the kids all stood up an began singing God Bless America in unison. I didn't even know the words. Never caught up with the kids in that class scholastically. Worst thing that ever happened to me ... except for JFK being murdered that same year.

Don

[zipplewrath]

15. Hate to say this but bigger changes are coming

Education is quietly but significantly changing in the country, and there is little if any debate going on about it. All the debate is about the nature of the "public school industry". But a change started when home schooling started to take off. At first, it was just some born agains trying to create some false environment for their kids. But in there somewhere an ability started to get created for parents to take direct control of their children's education. Their kids might still be "in school" but they were getting sent to tutors, or to specialized programs that were doing more of the actual "teaching" than the school. This ran head long into an "AP" system that sat roughly "outside" of the individual school, and was open to some extent to anyone, in any school, public, private, or home schooled.

We are now seeing kids getting into high school and spending as much time "out of the building" as in it. "precollege" programs, AP programs in other buildings, and private "tutors" running "classes" for groups of students from different schools. And beyond just the "advanced" students, we are seeing the "GED" system catching up to the 21st century. Students are taking classes "online" at "virtual" high schools to finish degrees. It is becoming a way for the pregnant teenager, or the expelled "trouble" student to get their diploma. And community colleges are starting to step in. There are courses being given for "remedial" education, in some case to support a GED program, in others to allow students to move on to "college level" classes towards a AA or BA degree.

And this is where the sea change is coming. The high school "diploma" is soon not going to be the avenue into "college". Community colleges will merely take "any" student and work them "up to grade". Much of it may be done "on line" similar to the students accomplishing this for the GED. Colleges and Universities are offering much of their graduate programs "on line" with "distance learning" and the system lends itself to almost anyone studying anything. And there is little reason it won't work at the high school level. Furthermore, the college itself can run a "remedial" program whose purpose is to allow people to get enough education to begin the college level studies. Every state college can in essence have an "on line" high school.

It is all a small minority of students right now. But as the traditional "public school" model begins to disintegrate into an odd collection of AP programs, GED programs, and various versions of "charter" schools and "home schools", the model of the public school is going to change. And it could be for the better.

Gone could be the concept of the student moving through a system, almost on a social level, through a standard curriculum, "graduating" from each grade to the next. Teachers won't be "day care workers" but education management specialists, dealing with each student and their needs. Progress will be measured by educational results, not the age of the student. Students won't be tied to their neighborhood schools, but can use them as a "base" of their education resources. Socialization and edition can be finally separated from each other. No more "student factories" that "pass" students on to the next link in the chain, unprepared and failing. "troubled" students will be educated in environments that deal with their needs, and prevent them from damaging the education of other students. "Advanced" students can study in greater depth, or breadth, or merely at a faster pace, without any socialization issues. There will be no more "special education" because all education will be individualized.

It will be no utopia, and there will still be problems galore. But the individual nature of the system will allow individuals to succeed, as soon as they are ready, which may not be until well into adulthood. Furthermore, "education" will become something that never really ends. Gone will be the day of "getting your degree and cashing in". It will merely be a case that we study less, and work more. But "continuing education" will become an integral feature of employment, with "students" using company assets to access distance learning courses at colleges and universities. Major corporations will probably establish courses, thought colleges, which combine the work of the professors, with the needs of the employees. In the end, education won't be something you "accomplish" it will be something you just "always do".