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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 05:27 PM
Original message
WSJ: Home-Sales Decline Suggests Trouble
Home-Sales Decline Suggests Trouble
By JAMES R. HAGERTY and NICK TIMIRAOS


The withdrawal of federal tax credits for home buyers led to a steeper-than-expected plunge in May home sales in much of the U.S., as the housing market struggles to wean itself from government support.

Economists and real estate analysts expected home sales to slow after the tax credit, of as much as $8,000, expired at the end of April. But early data from real estate brokers indicate that the sales decline has been far more substantial than expected, with some markets showing declines of 25% to 30%.

"Anybody who wanted to buy a house probably did" before the tax credit deadline, said Jay Brinkmann, chief economist of the Mortgage Bankers Association, a trade group.

Housing analysts say that the May slump is ominous but that it's too early to tell whether it portends another serious downward lurch in a market that has generally been leveling off over the past year.

Some recent signs have been encouraging. In April, for instance, the government reported that new-home sales, spurred by the tax credit, jumped 48% from a year earlier to an annual rate of 504,000.

But Ivy Zelman, chief executive of Zelman & Associates, a research firm, estimates that sales of new homes nationwide in May were down 25% to 30% from April. She warns that the weak May performance increases the chances of renewed price cuts by builders caught with too much inventory. ...........(more)

The complete piece is at: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704080104575286760022273010.html?mod=googlenews_wsj



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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. I know I bought then -- I'm gonna love tax credit and
Not having a mortgage.

But I do wonder if I could have done better if I
waited.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. "far more substantial than expected"
:banghead:

Not by any of the 10,000+ critics of this poorly devised stimulus who predicted precisely this result.
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skeptical cynic Donating Member (404 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't know what to believe
I could have sworn that only a day or two ago I heard that home sales had increased. Maybe it was just new homes, or existing home, or some other specific category.

We just got a rosy report about new jobs increasing, only to learn later that day that the majority of the increase was due to the hiring of temporary census workers. And I know an engineer with 30 years of experience working at Home Depot to keep busy until a job comes along because he wants to stay in Fairbanks, Alaska and there aren't any positions.

Our real estate agent friend is telling us not to buy a house unless we plan to stay in it at least ten years. The company we have our IRAs through is keeping us out of real estate and stocks, and they are predicting a commercial real estate bubble and another wave of foreclosures as the economy fails to improve.

I just don't know. We're not doing any unnecessary spending, just rent, utilities, food and fuel. I'm rereading books I already own, or buying used books. We're in survival and expect-the-worst mode.

Whatever "green shoots" there were are now soaked in crude oil.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hello Obama! The only way to fix this is to reverse the wealth gap...
And get fundamental increases of the lower and middle classes income and savings levels. They are already spent with no savings, and mounds of debt, and a health economy won't return until you resolve that issue.

Roll back the REAGAN tax cuts!

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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. The $ 8,000 credit moved many people into the market...
But let's be real, this was designed as much to stop the slide in valuation as well as to pump up sales...

The market was kept higher than is should have been because of the credit and will slowly work that artificial level back to where the market should have been before the credit was implimented...

It's the rules of Supply and Demand...
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I just checked Zillow.com to see what the valuation of my home is
It's crazy.

Prices have been all over the place.

in November '03 it was 241K

May of '05, down to 129K

April of '08 up to 229K

and this month it's down to 160K


We're trying to sell and move closer to "civilization". We've got the house listed at 189K, but even though people come through and say it's real nice, or real cute, they're still saying it's "too expensive".

sigh...


should probably just wait till the market gets better again...
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. But if the market gets better for you...
It also means the market is getting better "closer to civilization". It's better to not try and time the market if your real concern is something outside of the realm of economics...
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. That's the problem too
I was all excited to see the numbers of really cheap homes being sold nearer to the city (that we could afford after paying off the mortgage and other fees), but then that works against us if people can get a larger home in the suburbs (as opposed to out in a rural area) for way cheaper than what we're asking.


It actually makes more sense, from a financial POV, to stay here because what remains on the mortgage is not that high and it's affordable for two people on fixed incomes. I love the area. It's beautiful.

What I don't love is the trip into town, which isn't all that often, but necessary for groceries, medical care, etc. There is literally nothing out here, so we have to travel 20 miles each way. A couple of errands can be an all day project and it gets more and more tiresome the older we get. Plus there's the added fear about being trapped by ice storms and blizzards, and health issues and what might happen if rescue vehicles can't make it in and out (a huge sanding truck got stuck out here one time).

There's a whole lot of mixed feelings involved....



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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Zillow is a poor evaluator for home prices.
It only uses statistical data and hard numbers, such as assessments. It has no way to the value of a particular neighborhood, scenic views, etc.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-10 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. How true it is...
Our property tax assessment is lower that the other houses because of a homestead exemption because of my disability so our house is assessed 10% lower that the exact same house next door...
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unc70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-10 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Zillow is poor quality data, probably makes things worse for buyers & sellers
Zillow (and similar systems) gives the illusion of providing "valuations" for properties (Zestimate) for comparisons and trends. There are so many problems with the underlying datasets supporting their computer "models" and with those models themselves that the results are far worse than useless -- they contribute to misinformation, misleading media articles, frenzied panic decisions by buyers and sellers, counter productive or wasteful public policies, and much more.

I think Zillow is trying to compile and report reasonably accurate and valid data in an accessible format with enough perceived value to maintain traffic to their site so they call sell advertising. Their business model is much the same as online companies like Google or traditional advertising-supported information and entertainment providers -- newspapers, magazines, or commercial television.

The issues with Zillow are much the sames as those with similar sites, whether consumer oriented like Zillow or supposedly more professional tools used by appraisors, lendors, Realtors, taxing authorities, etc. The underlying data compiled from public records (deeds, tax records) varies from county to county, city to city, state to state. The online records are riddled with errors introduced at each step in the process, and almost noone seems to have done even simple common sense data validation on the online records, except for items critical to collecting taxes, etc.

Even when dealing places with detailed, high quality property and tax records such as those in Chapel Hill (Orange County) where I live, Zillow is wildly inaccurate, inconsistent, unstable, erratic, and likely to harm all parties involved with the real estate market. First, there are important items that Zillow mishandles. It connects a property to the nearest schools, public or private. In my case, it uses a fairly good private school rather than the nationally recognized public high school for my district and sees no problem comparing with houses in adjoining counties with the same ZIP.

Zillow seems to value all square footage the same, whether main level or below grade (basement) which is usually given a much lower value per sq.ft.

The Zillow algorithm fails to properly identify comparable properties seems grossly inadequate. While my house is EnergyStar, "green", etc. in a walkable dense neighborhood, none of the comps selected for it by Zillow are in my neighborhood and all are much older, somewhat smaller, but with much higher energy costs, and often with hazardous building materials. One of these comps was torn down and a new house is being built on its nice lot.

But Zillow has even bigger problems establish valuations/Zestimate. This problem is widely discussed, typically questioning why several nearly identical houses by the same builder within a block or two of each other are assigned very different Zestimates, and their individual values often move quickly in different directions by large amounts without any apparent reason. In my case, while the tax appraisal for all the similar houses differ by less than 5%, the Zillow estimates are often much more different and move up and down independent of each other over just a week or two.

After puzzling over this for too long, not understanding why they did not find and fix this problem, I think I might now understand. It is not a bug, it is a feature -- designed to increase dramatically the number of repeat visitors to the Zillow site. If Zestimates were relatively stable and slowly changed in response to sales and other infrequent events, most people would take longer before revisiting the site.

While that random-walk component of the Zestimate might be good for building traffic at Zillow, think about how a typical homeowner reacts. With everyone already very nervous about the housing market, having constant reminders that the value of your house (or another of interest) is fluctuating wildly for no obvious reason increases your perception of risk. Homeowners might panic and try to sell into the falling market, while potential buyers delay taking any actions.

In previous downturns in the housing market, most home owners held onto their properties and worked with the lenders who still owned the note. They road out the crisis and tried not to think too much about doing anything except continue to make their monthly payments.

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. The "housing market" is weaker now than ever because
the only real "customers" are the investors who are looking for cheap houses they buy in bulk from banks & flip, or the people who bought-low (years ago) and have some extra cash to buy investment property, or to move UP to a better/bigger one..or to buy "vacation homes" here and there.

The heart of the "middle class" has been ripped out & stomped on. People in their late 30's-mid 40's ( the traditional home-buying public) is worried sick about:

keeping their jobs
FINDING a job
child care expenses
college costs
the collapse of their retirement plans
the ever-increasing costs of health care
their aged parents


these people are staying put, if they can manage to hang onto the home they have, or trying desperately to UNLOAD it, so they don;t end up losing it. They are likely to have little or NO savings, and any plans to buy a home is now pie-in-the-sky.

"First-time-buyers" USED to be from this age group, but over the last 10-15 years, clever marketers lowered that age to 20-somethings and "poorer" folks who were lured into untenable positions, and ended up trapped in deals they could never afford, long-term.

The foreclosure market is a big joke too. Banks advertise a place for a ridiculously low price, and then when people try to buy it, they drag their feet (often for MONTHS) as they wait for "better offers". My friend's daughter tried to buy a foreclosed house and after waiting to hear back from the bank for FOUR months, she finally had to just buy a different house. The pre-approval from her bank was a limited-time thing, and she could not wait any longer.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Yep...I have a feeling the only way I'm going to sell my home
is if someone wants it for a vacation home, even though there are families that have lived, and still do live, in the area.

The location is a big problem, unfortunately. :(

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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. Makes sense. It front loaded a bunch of purchases.
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. Cash for clunkers effect
With the end of the tax credit, demand was bound to slump. All the credit did was pull demand forward. Now expect demand to fall like a stone, and of course prices to follow.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. gee, and I was badgered on DU couple of weeks ago for predicting...
...that the earlier bounce was unsustainable.
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haele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-10 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. It's down in part because lenders aren't lending -
The banks are still playing internal games with the money they were supposed to use to lend to homebuyers, because it's easier to pay off the taxpayers with the interest they are investing on speculations for the quick, high return.
And they're not going to help homeowners who are underwater or need some help, because that affects their pretty books; it looks better for them to be holding property, even property that was forclosed on and is sitting empty - that was overpriced because of speculation and the desire to profit off fees.
So properties go into forclosure. But don't get "sold" at forclosure prices; they are being listed for the still inflated value of the home. And working family who's household credit score isn't exactly perfect, or who don't have 20 - 30% downpayment can't get the loan on a home that should have been listed for $100K or so, but is being listed at the 2007 flipper's price of $300K (down fromn early 2008's $400K!)so the bank owner won't show a loss selling it for what it was worth.

I still can't find an equivelant house for less than I'm currently paying rent for. And since my credit isn't stellar, and I'm not making 6 figures, I'm not going to qualify for any sort of loan with any less than $50K to $75K saved up to come to the table with - and that would be for a $250K resale. And even with that much in hand to put down, it will pretty much be eaten up by the fees as well as buying down points enough to make a resonable mortgage for my income level. And then, I'll still probably need to drop $20K for repairs, appliances and to put in some energy savings. (And if it's a house, at least another $25K to put in solar or wind energy and a grey-water system for both utilities savings and environmental concerns because I live in a freak'n desert with lots of sun, wind, and very little water)which will have to be tacked on to the $250K mortagage, pushing my home purchase up to almost $300K when all is said and done.
And I know I'm not in this boat alone.

Haele
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