What Do You Think Is The Best Way To Educate Our Children?

[Dinger]

Poll question: What Do You Think Is The Best Way To Educate Our Children?

[jp11]

1. Public School.

Private and charter schools are a great tool to let corporations get rich off elementary/secondary schools, destroy teacher's unions, and offer inroads for religious organizations as well as the corporations.

[mzteris]

23. charter schools are free and public schools

open to all who apply

all charter public schools are non-profit. 10% are managed by for-profit management companies - the same that manage some traditional school systems.

80% of all charter public schools are operated LOCALLY by concerned parents, teachers, former teachers, admin, and community members.

[baldguy]

45. Charter schools take money away from "traditional" public schools.

They don't perform any better - and often do much worse - than regular public schools also. And finally, they spend more per student in return for that also.

Charter schools are no solution to the problems we face in public education.

[mzteris]

59. quit reading the propaganda -

charters do as well or better - some do worse, but then bad charters get closed PDQ. Too bad the same can't be said "bad traditionals", eh?

Charters get LESS MONEY PER STUDENT. Read the stats for yourself - take a look at any states DPI website for the info. The truth IS out there.

Charter schools are NOT THE SOLUTION - but they do offer A solution for some children. They are a necessity for some children in some areas because the trads are so abysmally failing to do their job of equitably teaching ALL children.

I support traditional public schools. And charter public schools. And virtual schools. And specialty schools. And magnet schools. And homeschooling. And - if I had the money, I'd probably be supporting a private school right now. But the sad fact is, private schools aren't affordable by the vast majority of people so why should children receive an inferior education because they don't have the bucks? Make the same qualities of a private school available to all children - FOR FREE. And that is exactly what many charter public schools are doing.

[Nikki Stone1]

60. Less money per student = more money for investors

and hedge funds.

[mzteris]

61. they don't GET the money -

do you have any understanding of charter public schools are even funded?

Based on your comment, obviously NOT.

[Nikki Stone1]

63. They are getting more and more money.

It's only a matter of time.

[mzteris]

62. some reading material for you.

Office of the Dean, Teachers College
Ball State University
CHARTER SCHOOL FUNDING: Inequity Persists
May 2010
Major Findings
For the second time, this study finds that:
 Charter schools overall were significantly underfunded relative to district schools:
- The average state disparity was 19.2 percent, $2,247 per pupil.
- Differences in student need, including students with disabilities, free or reduced price lunch students, and the grade levels taught, do not justify the disparity.
 Funding disparities were even wider in most focus school districts:
- The average disparity was 27.8 percent, $3,727 per pupil.
 The chief culprit was charter schools’ lack of access to local and capital funding:
- No state provided charter schools equal access to all funding sources (federal, state, local, and facilities).
- Statewide, more than 85 percent of the disparity between charter and district school funding resulted from differences in access to local revenues.
- Across focus districts, access to local funding streams also drove the funding disparity, but state funding was more unequal than at the state level, representing 30.4 percent of the disparity in focus districts vs. 8.9 percent of the disparity statewide.

http://www.bsu.edu/teachers/media/pdf/charterschfunding051710.pdf


******

This comparative study of school funding in charter schools and traditional public schools in 16 states and the District of Columbia finds that charters are significantly under- funded relative to district schools. The report, based on 2002-03 revenues, finds that, on average, the funding gap is 22 percent, or $1,800 per pupil. Researchers found that discrepancies are larger in most big urban school districts. In urban areas the gap widens to $2,200 per pupil. In cities like San Diego and Atlanta, charters receive 40 percent less than traditional public schools. The inequity is most severe in South Carolina, California, Ohio, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Missouri. The study finds that the primary driver of the district-charter gaps is charter schools' lack of access to local and capital funding. It includes detailed state-by-state and district financial and policy information, as well as recommendations for closing the funding gap. http://www.edexcellence.net/doc/Charter%20School%20Funding%202005%20FINAL.pdf

********

Funding for Charter Schools

As public schools, charter schools are funded through a combination of federal, state and local tax dollars. Different than non-charter public schools, though, charters have the freedom to determine how to spend their funds – in exchange for being held accountable for their academic, fiscal and operational results.

There is wide variation from state to state, though, in how the funding of charter schools actually works. Some of the most serious funding problems involve restrictions on the use of funding by charter schools, delays in payments to charter schools and forcing charter schools to pay for their facilities out of their operational budget.

What is consistent across the country – and most problematic – is that public charter schools receive significantly lower funding than non-charter public schools. A recent analysis of 24 states and the District of Columbia, covering 93 percent of the nation’s public charter school population, shows an average per-pupil funding gap of 19.2 percent or $2,247, when compared to traditional public schools in the same state during the 2006-2007 school year. For a typical 250-student charter school, the funding gap amounts to a nearly $562,000 shortfall every year. The gap was even larger – 27.8 percent – in “focus districts,” 40 cities where almost half of all charter schools in the study are located. http://www.publiccharters.org/node/44

[Nikki Stone1]

64. This is meaningless without knowing the specifics of which charters are

being run by whom and how their money is allocated. There are a number of types of charter schools. Some exist within larger school systems, and some are corporate-based, like those of Imagine, Inc., Edison, Inc., and Green Dot, Inc., among others. We'd need to separate out those different types of charters. The ones within school systems have support from that system which may not get counted on the spreadsheet.

From what I have seen, the corporate charters are doing what Wal-Mart does in a new market: they will low-ball the public schools out of existence, and then start demanding more and more tax money, once they are established. In Los Angeles, the charters aren't even doing this very well, though. Green Dot, Inc. has bid on only the newest school buildings (to which they want the titles for free!) and then are exempt from state laws on education. They don't have to take children with disabilities or other learning issues, among other things. Part of the reason the cost per student is so high in the public schools is that they have to take everybody: the kid with cerebral palsy, turret's syndrome, Downs syndrome, etc. These kids cost a lot of money to educate. The CP kids are provided with special computer equipment which can run over 30K per child. (This is one reason the "per pupil" spending is so high in the public schools.) The charters can say "Fuck the problem kids" and keep their costs down as a result. They look like they are surviving on less, but they have less expensive kids.

I suggest you get educated on how money gets allocated in a school district. Hint: busing is a really big cost to any school district (Federal law requires busing for integration purposes); legal departments are a really big cost to school districts (since PUBLIC schools can be sued for any accusation of not providing access. The charters, at least in CA cannot.). The charters don't have to follow the same laws as the public schools in California and Florida (and I'll bet Chicago as well), so they can afford to low-ball the public schools. The public schools are so busy spending money on complying with legal mandates that many classrooms don't have class sets of books for their students and can't do repairs on roofs and ceilings.

Rhetoric does not substitute for spreadsheets. To really compare charters and the public system, you need to know how money is allocated. I would need to see item by item spreadsheets to really know what is happening. I don't trust rhetoric about money, since most people are not that bright about numbers.

What I DO know is that Eli Broad, Green Dot, Imagine, Edison, et al. are not in the charter school business to lose money. They're in it to MAKE money for wealthy investors, like Broad. And to capture the market, you need to low-ball it first, drive your competition out of business, and then, once you have control of the market, you raise costs, both on the taxpayer and parents. Watch the tuition go way up in about a decade in places where the Green Dots and Imagines have control. It's like the health insurance giveaway bill that masqueraded as a health care bill: now that health insurance has been mandated for all by US law, and the customer base is captive, the rates are already starting to climb, even before 2014. Kaiser Foundation has just said that these costs will go up 20% THIS YEAR alone. Once an industry runs the market, they will raise prices until they can get the highest amount possible from the customer base. And, since education is compulsory in this country, the charter system will have the same net effect as the health insurance bill.

[mzteris]

67. low-ball?

You really do not comprehend how it all works.

You really believe the you and only you and the other "anti- charters" CARE about children and their education. Is it truly impossible for you to grasp that other people care a very great deal about education? about children? That this ONE ALTERNATIVE is NOT a threat to public schools but simply another option. Another tool with which to reach more children.


I'm sorry your mind is SO MADE UP that you can't be bothered to do a little open-minded research. I figure it truly is a waste of my time to gather the information for you.

[DireStrike]

77. So investing strategy works like this:

1) Find a cause you care about.
2) Throw money at it until it improves the world.

That's it, right? I'm not missing anything?

[mzteris]

81. it's what I would do.

Isn't what you would do if you had the money?

[DireStrike]

86. No.

I would look for highest rate of return at a level of risk I deemed acceptable. The purpose of investing is to make money, not to make the world better.

[mzteris]

87. so you're selfish with your money - that's your perogative.

doesn't mean everyone is...

[DireStrike]

99. I would bet that 99% of people act this way

In reality I wouldn't. I said that to make a point.

I would still invest so as to achieve the greatest return, but this would include things like environmental and societal stability. And my tolerance for risk would take into account whether a company was a serial breaker of laws and shitter-on of humanity.

Still this takes a lot of work to figure out, and companies all try to look like they meet all these criteria. Even people with good intentions will probably be mostly suckered in. Especially when everybody in just about every industry is involved in a race to the bottom.

How many hedge fund managers do you think allow their morality to rule their investments?

[mzteris]

68. one more -

the report from Ball State includes reports on every state at the main site. I figure you didn't go to the site. Did you read the main report? All 52 pages of it?

http://www.bsu.edu/teachers/ocsr/funding/


Charter School Funding Report (05/17/10)


Individual State Reports

* Arizona
* California
* Colorado
* Connecticut
* Delaware
* Florida
* Georgia
* Idaho
* Illinois
* Indiana
* Louisiana
* Massachusetts
* Michigan
* Minnesota
* Missouri
* New Jersey
* New Mexico
* New York
* North Carolina
* Ohio
* Pennsylvania
* South Carolina
* Texas
* Washington DC
* Wisconsin

Individual State Data

* Arizona
* California
* Colorado
* Connecticut
* Delaware
* Florida
* Georgia
* Idaho
* Illinois
* Indiana
* Louisiana
* Michigan
* Minnesota
* New Jersey
* New Mexico
* New York
* Ohio
* Pennsylvania
* South Carolina
* Washington DC
* Wisconsin


And I'll add this last bit

Charter Schools

The American Federation of Teachers strongly supports charter schools that embody the core values of public education and a democratic society: equal access for all students, especially students with special needs and English language learners; high academic standards; accountability to parents and the public; a commitment to helping all public schools improve; and a commitment to the employees' right to freely choose union representation.

Charter schools are publicly funded schools that are granted autonomy from some state and local regulations in exchange for meeting the terms of each school's charter. State laws, which vary widely, govern who can authorize charters, who can apply for them, and the total number allowed. Today, there are more than 4,500 charter schools across 40 states and the District of Columbia, enrolling more than 1 million children.

Charter Schools Can Empower Teachers

In a landmark address in 1988, former AFT president Albert Shanker became one of the first education leaders to champion the concept of charter schools. Shanker envisioned teacher-led laboratories of reform that would experiment with new instructional practices. These practices would then be subjected to rigorous evaluation and, if successful, would serve as models for other public schools.

Shanker also saw charter schools as a way to empower teachers, free them from overly bureaucratic regulations, and strengthen their voice in school and curriculum decision-making. In his view, unions were essential to charter schools, because unions help create the kind of secure work environment that encourages innovation and risk-taking.

The AFT and Charter Schools Today

The AFT believes strongly in Shanker's vision and the vital connection between charter schools and unions. In fact, the AFT represents charter school teachers and support staff in a dozen states. Our largest affiliate, the United Federation of Teachers in New York City, operates two charter schools. And in fall 2008, the UFT partnered with innovative charter school operator Green Dot to open a high school in the Bronx. The Chicago Teachers Union and the Illinois Federation of Teachers have joined with other partners to open a new charter high school in Chicago's West Garfield Park neighborhood.

Many teachers and staff in unionized charter schools report high levels of job satisfaction, noting that they benefit from the protections and rights of a union, and the freedom and flexibility of a charter.

Charter Schools: Realizing the Promise

Charter schools hold promise as engines of innovation and reform, but just as there are good and bad public schools, there are good and bad charter schools. Unfortunately, some charter school operators stifle input, exploit their staff, and put profit ahead of students' needs. Teachers working in poorly managed charter schools are the first to acknowledge this reality.

The AFT believes that responsible charter school management must be both transparent and accountable. Charter schools should:

* Be tuition-free, not-for-profit, and open and accessible to all students on an equal basis. Charter schools shouldn't use selective admissions to "cherry pick" top performers. And, just like other public schools, they should serve special needs students and English language learners.
* Operate transparently by fully disclosing their finances, curriculum, student demographics and academic outcomes to parents and the public. Charter schools, like other public schools, also should be subject to ongoing public input and oversight.
* Meet or exceed the same academic standards and assessment requirements that apply to other public schools.
* Hire well-qualified teachers . Teachers should be either certified or on a pathway to certification.
* Work cooperatively with local school districts. One of the goals of charter schools is to try out new instructional practices so that the lessons learned can be used to improve all public schools. This sharing of ideas should be a two-way street, with innovations coming from regular public schools too.
* Permit their employees to freely form unions. A strong teacher voice supported by a union is essential to achieving fairness in the workplace and improving academic outcomes. Charter school teachers and staff should be able to choose union representation in a timely and straightforward process.

The Bottom Line: What Happens in the Classroom Matters Most

Frontline educators know that there's no silver bullet for improved student learning. Simply changing a school's governance structure—for example, from regular public to charter, or from charter to regular public—does not magically lead to better results. Regardless of the type of school (regular public, charter or private), what happens in the school and in the classroom matters most.

Research shows that all schools have the best chance to succeed when they work collaboratively with all stakeholders; foster safe and orderly environments conducive to learning; have the ability for individualized instruction, which is possible with small class sizes; value quality teaching and great teachers; offer ample and effective professional development; feature a challenging, content-rich curriculum; use proven, research-based instructional practices; and have parental engagement. Schools also succeed when teachers and staff have a strong voice in school operations. For decades, the AFT has helped educators expand their influence as school leaders and decision-makers. That commitment extends to charter school teachers and staff, who deserve the same rights and responsibilities. The AFT established the Alliance of Charter Teachers and Staff in order to better serve and support our members in charter schools. This national network allows AFT-affiliated charter school educators to share best practices and professional resources, and speak out on public policy issues that affect charter school teachers' jobs.

http://www.aft.org/issues/schoolchoice/charters/

[MattBaggins]

71. No they are not

[laughingliberal]

104. +1000 nt

[Fumesucker]

2. Have parents that give a damn about education..

Without that none of the things you mention are worth much most of the time.

[hobbit709]

7. +1000

[NotThisTime]

21. K&R caring but efficient educators and administration would be nice

[seabeyond]

17. that is the bottom line..... nt

[rucky]

3. An environment where teachers are in control and parents are involved.

And it's the job of administration to support that environment.

[DrDan]

4. +1

just like our government, that pyramid somehow was turned upside-down.

But as a former teacher . . . agree completely. We need to support our teachers . . . like supporting the troops. We are quick to do that.

And we need parents to get involved - not as constant critics - but as positive support of the schools and teachers.

[Fumesucker]

5. I disagree about supporting the troops..

Just like education, we *say* we support the troops, the reality is far different.

There wouldn't be as many homeless vets as there are if we really and truly supported the troops.

I'm reminded of Kipling's poem Tommy (Tommy is Brit for GI Joe)

http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/tommy.html

[Scuba]

6. Charter schools cherry-pick students. Public schools...

...are increasingly burdened with a disproportionate share of 'special needs' students. But the charter schools get the same dollar-per-student rate as the public.

[mzteris]

25. No, they don't, scuba

Charters are filled by blind lottery. Anyone who wants to go can apply and have the same odds as the next person.

Charters can and do serve special needs children. And no, charters do NOT get the same dollar-per-student rate - in actuality, charters operate on fewer dollars-per-student.

" Charter schools are public schools and should receive the same type and amount of funding as conventional district schools. But they do not. Charter schools across the United States are funded at 61 percent of their district counterparts, averaging $6,585 per pupil compared to $10,771 per pupil at conventional district public schools. http://edreform.com/charter_schools/funding/

[William Z. Foster]

34. huh?

You are using the right wing front group "The Center for Education Reform" as your source?

http://www.edreform.com/About_CER/?Board_of_Directors

And this one? -

http://www.dfer.org/list/about/board/

There is a good thread on this here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x23229

Follow the money.

[mzteris]

37. Facts are facts william -

I don't care who posts them if they're true facts.

The MONEY is in the classroom where it BELONGS. Yeah there are SOME who are abusing the system, and I predict they will be out of business in the not so distant future.

The VAST MAJORITY of charter public schools are operated LOCALLY - by parents and teachers and former teachers and former school administrators and citizens of the community.

All charter schools are non-profit and they do not receive the same "$$" as their traditional counterparts.

[William Z. Foster]

38. I care

I care who claims things to be "facts" and disseminates them, and I care about their intentions and agenda. So should all of us.

The extreme right wing has been trying to destroy public education and break the Union for a long time. They are well funded and relentless. They will selectively present "facts" that mislead people into supporting the various privatization schemes they are forcing on us.

The burden of proof is on you, and you are not making the case that the right wingers with their "Democrats for this and that right wing program" front groups can be trusted, and you are destroying your own credibility in the process.

Your arguments in this post are red herrings and straw men, and I would hope that everyone here reading this thread can smell right wing sales and marketing tricks a mile away. Your posts read like a corporate advertisement or multi-level marketing pitch. That does not prove that they are, but that and your reliance on right wing sources - intentionally deceptive ones at that - compels us to raise these questions.

I am being extremely mild and courteous with my remarks here, given my feelings about this.

[mzteris]

46. oh blah blah blah antipunion crap and destroy education bs

The fact is that nearly the entirety (sans some creeps) of those in the charter public school movement care a very great deal about children and their education. AND yes, william, many of those charter school teachers are unionized. (psssssssssssst - did you know that some traditional schools teachers are NOT???)

The burden of proof is on you that every single charter public school in this country deserves to be shut down because of a very few "bad apples" and - what I think is the real driving force - the fears of a handle of old fuddyduddys who fear change.

My arguments are based on fact and first hand experience. Not reading the vapid ravings of those who are so threatened by the concept that they rely on lies and rumormongering.

HOW MANY CHARTER SCHOOL TEACHERS AND CHILDREN DO YOU KNOW PERSONALLY, WILLIAM? (Though as in when I ask anti- hs'ers that question, I'm prepared to hear about "that niece" or that neighbor, or that person - who so totally and royally sucks - thus indicating that every every single hs'er is a rw zombine fundie ijut.... :eyes:)

Don't worry about being courteous with me, william. I've been called every name in the book in here. I've been accused of being a f'ing pedophile and worse! All because some "teachers" are so locked into YESTERDAY - or whose sole experience is in their own little neighborhoods - that they can not comprehend that the world is changing and that that change requires innovation.

I wish charters didn't have to exist, william, really I do. But the fact remains that so many traditional public schools systems are abysmally horribly BAD!!! and no one is doing a damn thing about improving them.

Maybe "your neighborhood" is fine. Maybe the neighborhood schools of all yall good folks who are so anti-charter-public school even though you've never stepped foot in one - are oh so fine.... but I'm here to tell you that many many children have been abandoned by the traditional public schools available to them in their neighborhoods and they have given up waiting for someone to take notice and get their f'ing act together.


I'm really glad "your neighborhood" is just fine. But you know what? Those hundreds of thousands of children who are FAILING because the SCHOOLS IN THEIR AREAS HAVE FAILED THEM! deserve to have something better. And if the trads can't provide that, then I'm 100000% behind those that can. And you knopw what? If that someone is a weasly f'ing republican with an agenda, I don't CARE! As long as "little dashaun" gets a good education then more power to him! Take that education and run!!!

Maybe the dems can get off of their collective asses and provide a worthwhile education that will meet the needs of the children in the classroom and stop ob-fing-cessing over whether the teacher feelings are getting hurt over it. You ever read a gd UNION CONTRACT? something something XX and 1/2 MINUTES per day? GIVE ME AN F"ING BREAK. 30 seconds needs to be "hashed out in a f'ing contract"? Maybe contracts are necessary for the goliath school systems. Maybe that's why they aren't so necessary when you have a direct relationship with the people who hired you.

Everyone in here KNOWS that I support good teachers and more pay and smaller schools and smaller classes and more flexibility and more automony and i HATE "teaching to the test" and I think teachers should be EMPOWERED!!

And you know what, William?? It has been my experience wiht those I know in charter public schools - and yes there is more than one - those teachers ARE EMPOWERED anbd they ARE making a difference in the lives of the children in their charge and they're happy- very happy to be in a system that respects them and allows them to be TEACHERS and not just babysitters trying to meet some asinine "quartile".

[William Z. Foster]

48. wow

OK.

Best of luck to you.

[Mudoria]

52. Well said

[Nikki Stone1]

65. Trojan Horses: charter companies will low-ball the public system until

they drive the public system out of business. Here is my answer to you above. I'll paste it here in case you don't see it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8597057&mesg_id=8623735

[DireStrike]

76. Charter schools make profits, right?

If that is the case, public schools will always be better. No school should make any profit beyond paying its teachers and administrators.

[mzteris]

82. No. All charter public schools are NON-PROFIT BY LAW.

[DireStrike]

100. I hope you are right.

Of course, even if you are, corporations also started out as entities created to accomplish a purpose. Today they are the most evil entities in all of history.

[Hannah Bell]

105. she's wrong. if they're run by for-profit management corps, there's profit involved by definition.

and if they're run by "non-profits" that play funny games with administrative salaries, or real-estate arms, or curriculum arms -- it's profit too, even if not called such.

bottom line -- it takes money that used to go for educational needs, with public oversight, & gives it to private, unaccountable parties.

[Hannah Bell]

106. yes, financiers are such caring types. that's a well-known "fact" -- straight

from the "propaganda-is-us division" of walmart, inc.

the whole movement's driven by hedge fund & corporate types & you're talking about how much they CARE?

LOL.

[MattBaggins]

72. Yes they do

[mzteris]

118. no they don't.

:P

[stray cat]

8. Make all public schools equal to the worst school in America

then they really can be called public schools and people who can afford to live in areas with good public schools will no longer get a benefit for their children denied the masses in poorly run public schools with no money and high crime and murder rates. No public school should be any better than the worst school in the bronx

If you want your children to be safe and get a good education you then first have to fix the worst school before they can attend one any better

[stray cat]

9. Public schools are discriminatory - people send kids to the best area they can afford a house

charter schools are great for evening the odds for people who can't afford a house in decent areas. Look at the good charter schools in Harlem

[LWolf]

10. Charter schools are more discriminatory, since

they can filter enrollment in ways that public schools can't.

Fully fund every public school.

And, while you're at it, abolish poverty so that every area in the U.S. is "decent."

[Scuba]

12. Nailed it.

[mzteris]

26. how is it they are "filtering" enrollment when it's by blind lottery?

[LWolf]

28. Depends on the individual schools.

"Blind lottery" is not a universal feature, which I'm sure you know. It also doesn't negate filtering.

The first, and simplest, feature, is this: transportation.

One reason why schools in a district have attendance zones is to make transportation more efficient and cost effective. Busing students from anywhere to any school is cost prohibitive.

So the only families who will even apply for charter schools, unless that transportation issue is somehow solved, are those that can afford to transport their kids themselves.

Which automatically puts them in that higher-functioning SES group.

[mzteris]

29. do have any stats on

this lack of "universal feature"? and any info as to why a particular school might not be a "lottery"? I personally do not know of any, but I'm willing to take your word for it that there are. Do you have any names?

Transportation can be an issue for some. Our charter gives priority to kids "in district" and those kids are able to ride the regular school bus. Nearly all students are "in district" especially in the lower grades.

Transportation is ALSO an issue for magnet schools in the traditional public school system.

Of course, now transportation has become an issue for regular schools period. Wake County is now using that as an excuse to desegregate their schools. but I digress...

In inner city schools, aren't most charters located in such a way that the "usual methods" of transportation to school apply?

[LWolf]

42. In district doesn't mean automatically bused.

My district, for example, serves a 556 square mile area. Obviously, there are a hell of a lot of families within our district boundaries that would not be able to take a bus.

Even in smaller (geographically) districts, the whole point of an attendance zone is to make transportation affordable and efficient. It costs a bunch more money to run buses all over an entire region to transport to one school.

So..those families who live outside walking and bus zones...transport themselves.

Are you truly saying you've never heard of a charter school that doesn't enroll by lottery? If so, then I begin to think that you haven't looked into many charter schools around the nation.

Do I have stats? No, because I haven't looked for nor compiled them. I can give you examples, though. Here's one:

A charter school in my district, which was "unchartered" and absorbed into the regular public schools in my district 2 months ago. As a charter school, it was "The International School of the Cascades." They required comprehensive written applications which included an essay and letters of recommendation. I know, because some of my students attended and requested letters of recommendation from me, as well as asking me to help them with the application process.

It's now the "International Academy," and falls within several "school within a school" "academies" making up our comprehensive high school.

[mzteris]

43. I should have said "school district" -

not district as in the entirety of the school board oversight. (edit to add) would "school attendance zone" be a better phrase?

No, I haven't heard of any regular charter schools that enroll by anything other than lottery. There ARE specialized schools catering to a particular group - as does some trads - but yeah, if you have the names of some, I'd surely love to see 'em. If they're "non-lottery" - there must be a "reason" - and hopefully - it's a very valid and legal reason.

And yeah, I've done a whole lot of reading about charters so I'm pretty comfortable saying that the overwhelmingly vast majority are filled via blind lottery.

That particular school then had a "raison d'etre" - it was established for a particular purpose, much like magnet and other traditional schools "of excellence" or some other designation meaning that a child needs to meet a certain criteria.

Those types of schools are the gross minority. Though yeah, I support them as well. Gifted students are getting very short shrift in the trads these days. Very.

Wanna know what homeschoolers call NCLB??

No Child Gets Ahead.

[LWolf]

50. I'm referring to one school district.

One of 5 that serve our larger county district.

It's certainly true that the traditional system has some clear dysfunctions and doesn't serve all populations equally well.

You and I both recognize that, and we both support alternatives to the traditional system.

The difference? I want to change the traditional system. You just want to opt out. That's what charters do. They advance a privatization and union-busting agenda, while leaving a system that needs updating in place.

[mzteris]

53. No I don't want to "opt out" -

but I think Charters are one of those alternatives that are so desperately needed right now.

I've said repeatedly that I wish charters didn't have to exist, but they do and I support their existence. They ARE providing viable alternatives for thousands and thousands of children, LWolf.

I WANT the traditional system to change. DRASTICALLY. And contrary to the popular opinion around here, charters ARE effecting good and positive change in their communities. Not all charters, no. I don't think they're "the answer" nor the panacea, they are ONE option. One. Traditional public schools aren't going any where so I don't know why are the running around and squawking like the sky is falling. But they do need to change. They've become stagnant. And that was well before George Bush was even considered for office.

I don't like NCLB. I don't like "testing" as it exists now. I don't like evaluating teachers on "a test" any more than I like evaluating students on one. There's a whole lot that needs to be done. Innovations and creativity must take place.

I don't buy that charters (as a whole -maybe some do, I don't personally know all of them!) have a "union-busting" agenda. Of course, I honestly don't think unions are necessary when an employee has a personal relationship with their employers who treat them well and right and with the respect due them. And yeah, that can't happen in a mega workforce - so unions ARE necessary in a huge conglomerate, but in a small individually run group - a small community? Not so much. I know you are aware that there are unionized charter public schools, including those founded and run by unions. So I'm really not buying the "union-busting" meme anymore.

I don't consider a non-profit locally operated public school to be "privatized" either. I guess it's a matter of interpretation, but from where I'm sitting, most of the charters in this country are more "public and publically run and publically accountable" than the majority of traditional public schools.

[LWolf]

56. "privatized"

means not regulated by the local legal body...the school board. They regulate themselves, or they are run by outside for-profit or non-profit corporations.

If a school is regulated by a local school board, under their umbrella to ensure that all ed codes are followed, that labor codes and contracts are followed, etc., then it doesn't NEED a charter.

While charters have to follow some codes, they don't follow all and they don't have the same oversight that is there to protect students. Hence, you can have principled, professional people, or not.

When the top-down authoritarian laws that work to standardize, and diminish, public schools and districts are removed, then districts and schools can be flexible enough to make "charters" irrelevant. That's what we should be working for. Not more charters, but the real source of the problems. If Obama/Duncan think charters are that great, they ought to call a halt to promoting standardization and de-valuing teachers, and work to pass some legislation that allows flexible restructuring of ALL public schools. THAT's equity.

They don't do that, because charter schools allow filtering, allow public funds to be directed toward private groups, and allow public funds to detour around unions. If public school districts and schools were empowered to restructure themselves, those agendas would be weakened.

Instead, we've still got standardized testing used as the weapon of mass standardization and teacher, (and teachers' union) demonization.

There ARE districts trying to restructure in such a way that charters will be irrelevant; donco's, for instance. It's just a much harder effort when the nation is stampeding in the opposite direction. With some actual support, you'd see more and more whole districts doing the same.

[mzteris]

57. "school boards"

Ima thinking they are part of the problem . . . for reference see: Wake County North Carolina... and I'm here to tell you that they were corrupt 10 years ago- way before this current crop of racists.

Your second para doesn't make any sense at all to me. As it is the "school boards" who are least partially - if not sometimes totally - responsible for creating the conditions that necessitate charters' existence!

Student protection oversight is there - the "codes" that don't have to be followed are the asinine ridiculous ones that all the teachers on here are constantly complaining about!! That's the part I don't get. Charter public schools (many - most?) give teachers the very freedoms they keep screaming that they WANT!

Well before bush's version of NCLB came into existence, schools were in trouble. Big Trouble. It's not just the "teach to the test" mentality - though that is a huge part of the problem -

I've been "working" for solutions to the traditional school problem since I was in school - and Reagan wasn't even elected as yet. And all to no avail. Many of the problems that existed when I was in school still exist to this day. The entrenched mind-set that exists in MOST - not all - traditional public schools systems (at least in the South and in large metropolis areas) - existed then and they exist now. No matter what steps, measures, innovations, pleading, what-have-you - has taken place, the same damn problems exist. The "system" is too entrenched and something drastic has to happen.

Like I said, I wish charters didn't HAVE to exist, but the need for them is there and somehting needs to fill the gap = and it sure as hell shouldn't be RELIGIOUS schools or "VOUCHERS". I want the same damn quality education that private school students get for the average - or below average - or challenged - or poverty - or poor gifted - child. without cost to that student. No "vouchers" - which is a f'ing JOKE in my book. ALL students are entitled to a quality education and many many traditionals can't and won't do it ( yeah, some systems are great, but in many - ?most? - they are NOT. - and I'm publicly stating that I think RACE has a whole damn lot to do with it!!)

Look - I'm aware that "some" charters are "crooked" - but there are 10X - 100X as many traditionals that are crooked when it comes to equality of education. I grew up in the South. I KNOW. The only AGENDAS that are being weakened, imo, is that of those whose sole concern is ensuring that only the "right kids" get a good education.

You know I hate standardization. and I don't support teacher demonization. Though I do believe that some of the unions are shooting themselves - and their teachers - in the foot by their excessive demands that have absolutely nothing to do with education and professionalism.

Teachers should be paid and treated as PROFESSIONALS. Last I looked, professionals don't necessarily need unions - only "workers" do. Think about it. Really. Are you are "worker" or are you a professional? You should be paid a very generous yearly salary with good benefits and generous PTO (paid time off - be that personal, sick, or vacation). None of this 1/2 minute crap. None of the minutae of your day dictated. You have a job to do. Do it and none of the dictating exactly how that "day" should go. You should empowered to do your job to the best of your ability and as how you see fit. If you don't do that job, then - well the same that happens to any other professional who doesn't do their job.......

Does any of my philosophy make sense to you? The system as it exists was based on "poor women folk" who needed job security and a pension because they couldn't be trusted to make their own decisions and provide for themselves. There was a post to me a while back about how pensions are truly short-changing women (teachers) and it would be in your best interest to say "F" the pensions and take your increased pay now - up front and be responsible for it. I'll try and find that post- it was quite interesting.

I've posted repeatedly ahout donco's district. I think what they did was amazing and wonderful. If only ALL districts did that. But they dont. And Lwolf - some kids, some parents, some races, are just soooooo tired of waiting for their schools to buy a clue and get their acts together. For those districts, then if a charter can provide them with the education their districts can't or won't provide - then more power to them.

I know you support the education of children - regardless of the source. I'm thinking that just maybe you don't realize just how bad it is in some areas of the country and honestly, charters are truly their ONLY hope. I'm not going to take that hope away just because it's not a "traditional" option. And honestly, I don't think you would either.

[mzteris]

58. here's that post I mentioned about pensions:

from poster Nicholas D Wolfwood . . . "We also have to realize that there's a reason why companies like GM and US Steel went out of business, and it's the pensions. We should absolutely honor every teacher's pension, but that doesn't mean we should continue offering it. Long term, it's not a viable financial situation - as it currently stands, 40 cents on every additional education dollar spent by the government goes to teachers that aren't in the classroom anymore. Honestly, it's not a great deal for teachers themselves either - it locks them into careers (which this generation of Americans doesn't like at all - most switch careers 3 times in their lives) if they want to ever see their actual earnings, which they don't realize until they're in their late 40s in most cases. Plus, you can't buy a home with pension money you don't get until you retire. If you look on a dollar for dollar, total compensation package, teachers actually do make a very good living, except that most of it is deferred. I say stop deferring it - the average teacher makes about $45k/year now - bump it up to $80k and axe the pensions. The overlap would mean a short-term investment to switch systems, but in the long run, it will save our municipalities and states a lot of money and will make teaching a much more attractive profession for top college graduates.. . " http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8359776&mesg_id=8375156

[Hannah Bell]

110. as i said the last time you posted this cut & paste: GM & US STEEL never "went out of business".

that claim is false, & so is everything else in the post based on that false premise.

[Hannah Bell]

108. +100

[MattBaggins]

74. enrollment may be blind lottery

kicking out the "bad apples" afterward is not.

[mzteris]

94. Statistically, "kicking out" occurs at about the same rate

as traditional public schools.

[Hannah Bell]

113. uh, no, it doesn't. & public schools in most cases can only suspend, not kick out forever.

public schools *have to* serve the kids in their district.

if not by the ordinary means, then they have to set up special means.

charters can kick out someone & don't ever have to see them again.

your post is completely false.

[Hannah Bell]

111. yep. & "encouraging" those who aren't "a good fit" to move on.

as well as not having the programs for the most problematic students (esl, special ed) in the first place -- "we'd love to take little johnny, but unfortunately, we don't offer those services"

[Fumesucker]

11. That's not necessarily true..

Housing costs in my county are considerably less than in the next county over going toward the big city and yet the academic performance or our students is substantially higher.

Higher housing prices do not automatically equate to improved public schools.

[elleng]

19. Can you explain your high academic performance?

[Fumesucker]

20. I don't have an airtight explanation..

I suspect that our students tend to be less spoiled on the average than those that live in the area with all the McMansions.

But that could be my bias showing.

[seabeyond]

18. the high school that ranks highest in our city is low income, very diverse... least rich.

kids have gone to private, low income public and high income in public. the low income public was excellent, run really well, and education there, if child took the opportunity

[DireStrike]

79. This is true. Public schools need federal funding.

It is a crime to fund public schools purely locally.

[msongs]

13. require all children of elected officials to attend public schools.nt

[Dappleganger]

39. Bingo!!

[Freddie Stubbs]

80. A President hasn't sent his kids to public schools since Jimmy Carter

[H2O Man]

14. Other.

I favor public schools with a solid foundation of learning at home. Obviously, every good school teacher and administrator recognizes the "learning at home" is essential for in-school success (and I'm sure that is intended in this poll). However, it is not always the reality ..... and hence, public schools are held to a different, unfair standard than private schools.

[seabeyond]

15. i have done public, private and watched niece be homeschool. i chose public.

IF we had a private or charter that went beyond the public academically, i would put them equal. we dont

[elleng]

16. REALLY depends on where we are, quality of schools.

I grew up in NYC/suburb and had excellent public schools. Had family in DC - not at ALL the same situation. Paid for private, parochial schools.

NOW they attend public university and private university/graduate school.

[tabbycat31]

54. I grew up in an affluent NYC suburb

politically speaking, it's deep in the heart of Hillary Clinton territory. I HATED HATED HATED my public school experience and would have given my left arm to get out of the system. The education itself was good (2/3 schools in the district received national school of excellence), but I was bullied to the point where I was afraid to go to school from 4th grade to high school graduation. There were less than 100 in my high school class, 75% of who were there since K.

A child can't learn when they're afraid to go to school. My school district's policy on bullying was to blame the victim, since the bullies are usually popular athletes. It's very similar to asking a rape victim why she wore that dress.

[mzteris]

22. The best way is the way that works for the kid

for some - in some neighborhoods and cities - that may be traditional public schools.

for some - it may be charter public schools.

for some it may be private schools - and who of us doesn't not want the same "quality" of education that (many) private schools have - if we could "just afford it". Wouldn't it be GREAT if those "private school standards" were available FREE to ALL COMERS?!? (ooops - I just described some charter public schools, didn't I?)

for some - few schools are up to properly educating them. For some - homeschooling is really the only viable option, unless you could hire a private school teacher.

You forgot online schools and correspondence-type schools and other homeschool/school "hybrids".

There are also "speciality schools" - for gymnasts and musicians and dancers and artists and then there are the schools for the highly and profoundly gifted.

Children should have CHOICES. They should be able to attend any school - without cost - that meets their unique and specific needs. There should be more options - more models - available.

There should be MORE schools and MORE teachers in order for the schools and the classes to be smaller. Teachers should be treated and paid like every other professional.

One size does NOT fit all. Every child is unique and different and has specific needs that they have a RIGHT to be met. Charter schools have the freedom to implement programs that traditionals can't or just plain won't - for whatever reason. Our district is now embracing OUR charter school concept and implementing it in their schools. That is what a charter can do for a community.

In some communities, the traditional public schools have failed and failed dismally in educating the children who live there. It's not the "teachers" fault, no - but the system itself, in so many places, are broken and stagnated beyond belief. In some communities there is still rampant racism and discrimination. There is cronyism and elitism and favoritism. There are people in charge who have agendas that most of us on DU find abhorent.

For every "bad story" about a charter, I can find dozens about traditional public schools - and I can find dozens of GOOD stories about charter public schools. Bad schools - be they charters or traditional or private or religious or homeschool - should be CLOSED! And for charters, that can happen in an eyeblink. For traditionals? No, they go on and on and on and on and on with their sub-par performances. You may not like RTTT - but it sure as hell is shaking things up which is EXACTLY what needed to happen. Sometimes if people won't "do the right thing" you have to force them to. (And no, I'm not talking about not one single teacher here, I'm talking about the SYSTEM.)

Should charters even HAVE to exist? No. They shouldn't. But the fact remains that there is a need for them in many many communities because the traditionals in those communities just aren't getting the job done properly.

And please please remember - no matter how you try to spin it otherwise - Charter schools ARE PUBLIC schools - open to all who apply and without charge.

I'm a Democrat and I believe in CHOICE.

[William Z. Foster]

33. sounds just wonderful

Almost like reading a sales brochure.

So why not apply this model to ALL public schools, with Union teachers?

I'm a Democrat and I believe in universal access to equal opportunity, not "choice," and I believe in the Union.

Obviously, behind the swell sales pitch lurks Union-busting and privatization.

[mzteris]

35. I don't know why they don't apply this model

to all traditional public schools.

But they don't.

And it's getting a little too late in the day to keep waiting, you know?

Sometimes the people have to take matters into their own hands.

Oh - and quite a few charter public schools are already unionized. Hey, did you know the teachers unions have started some of their OWN charter schools?

Teachers should be jumping at the chance to be a charter public school teacher - you get what you always wanted - WAY MORE SAY about what is going on in YOUR CLASSROOM. Autonomy. Freedom from mindless and ignorant "regulations" that do nothing other than hamper your ability to teach.

I believe in the universal access to equal opportunity - FREE AND PUBLIC AND APPROPRIATE EDUCATION FOR ALL. Should our traditionals be providing that? Absolutely. But they do not. So sorry, CHOICE it is - a true Democrats support CHOICE last time I looked. We are not all lock-step mindnumbingly vapid followers.

[Lorien]

55. Well said.

I'm also getting sick and tired of "being pro-choice" as an applicable phrase for use on ANY issue. I'm not "pro-choice" when it comes to war, child or animal abuse, predatory capitalism, the death penalty, environmental regulation, etc. etc. I am "pro-choice" when it comes to a woman's ability to control what happens to her own body, though.

Nobody is saying that private schools should be outlawed. I attended a non-profit private school as a child, but I am a strong supporter of well funded public schools staffed by union teachers and employees. The for-profit model hasn't worked well in providing public services so far overall. It would be particularly harmful in education, imho.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

114. I'm with you, mzteris!

:hi:

[City Lights]

24. Public schools.

My kids have gotten an outstanding education at the public schools in our district.

[Odin2005]

27. Homeschooling, if possible.

[LeftyMom]

30. The method that works best for the individual child, naturally.

Kids aren't interchangable. They have differing aptitudes, interests and goals. Any one-size approach will fail.

[Dappleganger]

40. I agree with this.

While most children do best in a public school environment, some (a small percentage) do better in a tutoring relationship of some kind. I support fully-funded public schools with strong, effective teachers' unions as well as the option for a family to secure special types of teaching (including homeschooling) for kids which fall outside the norm or those who are having social problems in their schools (such as excessive bullying and discrimination).

[mzteris]

44. +1mill

:applause:

[Merchant Marine]

31. More hands-on and practical education

Students should have options like wood shop and metal shop, as well as "life learning" classes. My school taught me plenty of algebra but I never learned how to balance a checkbook or pay my taxes.

'Course I rectified my lack of hands on with a Maritime Academy, but the hordes of kids my brother's age who have no idea what to do with a wrench or a screwdriver shocks me.

[mzteris]

36. another perk of homeschooling

is the daily exposure to "real world" education.

[noamnety]

32. It depends on the child and the school. (nt)

[harun]

41. Other: Mix.

[aikoaiko]

47. I don't think the best education varies along the options you provide.

Where I grew up, the screwed up kids went to private school because the public schools were excellent.

Where I live now, almost every parent who can afford to get their kid in private school does because of the poor schools. Where I live one third of 6th graders are suspended during their 6th grade. I'm not sending my gentle boy into that environment.

[lostnfound]

49. Other - It depends on the child, the school AND the FAMILY

People pick schools because of how their kids are, what their values are, and what their family situations are -- not only financially but emotionally. Some families need help in guiding their kids to be responsible or to be positive or to be structured or whatever..and if the local public school isn't able to offer that, then what?

[Stevenmarc]

51. If you live in a major city and have boat loads of money then it's private school.

and I'm not talking about the Catholic school down the street, there are a handful of schools around country that can pretty much guarantee acceptance into an Ivy League university but be prepared to spend $30,000+ a year.

[PM Martin]

66. Public Schools first.

Private Schools could work but are usually too expensive for many working class people.
Charter Schools cherry pick their students and exclude those who are no in the top academic ranks.
Home Schooling(Palin)......:crazy:

[mzteris]

69. excuse me, but -

1. Charter public schools do NOT "cherry pick" their students. If there are more applicants than slots, then there is a BLIND LOTTERY. Some charters provide the quality education of a private school - but it is free of charge to the students. Which is how it should be. Not only the rich and privileged are entitled to a good/specialized education!

2. AFAIK Palin has never truly homeschooled. But a whole damn lot of DU'ers DO. Come on over to our hs forum. Or read the thread recently posted about hs'ers in this group for more information about who and what we are.

[TexasObserver]

70. I believe public schooling should be mandatory.

Those who want to teach their children religion can do so on their own time. School is for education, not religious indoctrination.

No private schools. They're anti democratic.

[depakid]

73. I wouldn't go that far- but I'll put this out for your consideration

I think public schools would do well to have uniforms like Australian and British kids do.

Wouldn't have thought that 10-15 years ago....

[TexasObserver]

75. Private schooling communicates disparity of opportunity and rights.

If people could not segregate their children from the masses for education, they'd have to deal with diversity, instead of hide from it. Cloistered kids are kids who have not been given the tools to understand the world around them. They live in a cocoon created by their parents' prejudices and money.

[depakid]

78. I can see that line of reasoning...

Uniforms also prevent segregating on the basis of perceived status and create a commonality and camaraderie.

Not to mention making life a bit easier on parents.

[mzteris]

85. one of my son's schools was a uniform

we loved it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

83. How exactly are private schools ant--democratic?

:shrug:

[mzteris]

84. It's a myth that all homeschool for "religious" reasons -

most do it for educational reasons. Very good ones at that.

If you'd like to visit the DU Homeschool group, we'd be happy to enlighten you.

[TexasObserver]

92. Home schooling is what parents should do when kids come home from public school.

We sent all three of our kids to public schools because we live our ideals, one of which is that life is a melting pot, and the kids can't properly melt if they're kept cloistered away at home or hidden away in some private school of privilege.

What you call home schooling I call "going over the kids school work and home work with them." We did after that the kids came home from public school.

Public school is as much about societal assimilation as about education.

[mzteris]

93. and again the stereotype

hs'er aren't kept locked in the basement. They're out IN THE REAL WORLD every day. They interact with a wider variety of kids, especially age-wise, in different settings - not the artificial environment of a "classroom".

When you spend nearly as much time "going over the kids school work and home work with them." than they spent IN school, then it's time to do something different. Some schools can not and do not meet the needs of all children. For some children hs'ing is an excellent option.

Again, please feel free to visit the homeschooler forum and ask any questions you care to ask. If they're not too busy, and you're polite, they just might answer you.

[TexasObserver]

96. The need of society to have children taught by non parents is key.

Society has an interest in seeing children away from their parents and in the care of a large number of responsible adults, as public school provides. This is one way of making certain that children are exposed to more than their parents can teach them. When children can only learn through the eyes of their parents, they are limited by that perspective.

We also need to be able let children know their parents aren't the authority on all things, that we have laws which protect children, that there are other adults they can talk to if their parents are abusive, and that they don't have to follow the path their parent thinks is best.

School provides a place we can identify the children at risk from bad or oppressive parenting. Who will save the abused home schooled child? Many home schoolers - perhaps as many as 40% - believe in strict discipline and some include physical punishments.

[mzteris]

103. welll- you sure have your stereotypes down pat

not to mention quite a few odd ideas about parenting and child-rearing.

In some cases, I quite agree, some children should be not be homeschooled. I'm glad you don't believe in it.

[TexasObserver]

107. You stereotype every time you accuse others of doing it.

I've addressed home schooling. You've attacked me for disagreeing with your point of view.

Do you have something substantive to say?

[mzteris]

116. you're basing your "opinion" on pure conjecture - or at the very

best - a limited sample base.

How many homeschoolers do you KNOW personally? From one community? Two? Different states? Countries? What demographics? Political persuasion. Religious or not. How many adults who were homeschooled do you know?

Your "opinion" are your own, but I think that with your very limited sample base you have do not have the knowledge to have that "opinion" substantiated beyond "opinion". You're entitled to it, of course. And I'm obligated to try and enlighten you, and failing that, ensuring that anyone else reading your "opinion" is informed that that "opinion" is merely that and nothing more.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

115. Public school is not necessarily a haven from parental abuse.

And homeschooled children aren't necessarily only taught by their parents.
University of Maryland, for example, offers classes for homeschooled kids in various subjects. And interestingly, it isn't just wealthy, white, elitist, christians who send their kids to participate.

[mzteris]

117. Stories of abused children in public schools far out weigh

those who are TRULY homeschooling.

There are those few, of course, who hide behind "hs'ing" because their states laws are lax - but they are not REALLY homeschoolers.

[EstimatedProphet]

88. Apparently listening to Rush Limbaugh is all they need

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/gop-listening-gives-jeb-bush-some-answers

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzteris]

90. which is how many homeschoolers

operate.

There are plenty of co-ops of every type imaginable many have classes taught by experts in their fields.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzteris]

95. a lot of people make the mistake of

thinking the kids they meet are odd because they're homeschooled, when the truth is - most of those are homeschooled 'cause they're a bit "quirky".

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LatteLibertine]

98. Be truly green

Don't have any. That's the best thing for the planet and global warming. Stop being mindless breeders.

[SoCalDem]

101. oops a dupe

[SoCalDem]

102. Look back..

1. small neighborhood schools
2. ample recess & "gym" classes
3. real food cooked onsite by real people
4. school uniforms
for starters

[Starry Messenger]

109. Wow, once again the majority is anti-privitization and/or leftist

but a few voices dominate the discussion and give the impression that the majority is against it. Interesting poll Ding! Judging from the results I can think of one poster who must have you on ignore. ;)

[mzteris]

119. actually Dinger and I get along just fine.

She has an open mind and a kind heart. We may not always agree about the HOW, but we agree about the purpose and the WHY.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

112. Other: Depends on the child and the options available