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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:14 PM
Original message
Forum Upheavals Are Just Par for The Course
Edited on Sun Jun-20-10 01:19 PM by MineralMan
I've been frequenting discussion forums on all sorts of topics since back in the GEnie and Compuserve days. Forums on boats. Forums on software. Forums on fishing. Forums on politics Forums on...well you name it. I gravitate towards large forums with large memberships. They're more active, and more fun.

There's something that every one of those forums, and pretty much every organization in human history, have in common: Discord.

Any time a large group of people comes together to discuss things or to share common interests, minor differences are bound to occur. In almost every such situation, from church denominations to service clubs, hobby groups, and discussion forums, there are always people who have differences with those who form the leadership and the general beliefs of the larger group. They grow dissatisfied with the group, which they feel no longer represents their viewpoint. Sometimes, they even become disruptive and get tossed from the group.

So, what happens next? Very often, the dissatisfied or banned go and form a new group, taking like-minded, disgruntled people from the original group with them. Martin Luther did it, and protestant denominations have been doing it ever since. These splinter groups form, complain about the original group, grow, and then end up with new splinter groups forming from within the original splinter group.

On discussion forums, the splintering occurs, too. A general automotive discussion group will end up splintering over brand loyalties and other issues. A fishing group will splinter when some people think their favorite fishing specialty is being ignored.

Typically the splintering occurs when one person or a small group becomes disruptive in seeking changes in the group. Eventually, they get banned from the original group and go off to form their own group. The new group generally has even narrower viewpoints than the original group and ends up banning people who don't agree with their viewpoint, forming more and more, ever smaller splinter groups.

In religion, which predates the Internet by centuries, the splintering takes place over doctrinal issues, mainly. Today, starting from Martin Luther's original break from the Roman Catholic Church, Protestantism has hundreds, if not thousands, of denominations, all smaller than the original, with some so small that they consist of a dozen people meeting in someone's home. All over minor doctrinal issues.

The other thing that splintering produces is a focus on the wrongs that were done by the previous organization. All too often, that is the main point of discussion in the new group. This is especially true of Internet discussion forums. The splinter group almost always has a public or private area where the topic is always the original forum and how horrible it is. This happens in almost every type of forum, from fishing or automobiles to religion or politics. The focus is on the differences, not on the similarities.

All the Protestant denominations share far more in their doctrine than they disagree about. But, they are convinced that the differences are what is important, and spend great amounts of time condemning the original denomination for its "unholy" doctrine. The original reason for the religion and the common goals are diminished.

Same thing with Internet forums. The more things change, the more they remain the same. It wouldn't matter, I guess, but with all of these organizations, the splintering tends to destroy cooperation toward common goals. It sets up animosities, which grow, and defeats the entire purpose of organizing in the first place. It's a pity. I've seen it happen in almost every large discussion forum and organization I've belonged to, on a very wide range of topics. I think it's a shame.

Me? I stick with the original, large group. There, at least, there are numbers, even if there isn't consensus. Consensus is rare to the point of nonexistence on almost any topical forum. And that's not a bad thing, necessarily. So, I stick to the large group for my discussions, and always have. If I were a Christian, which I'm not, I wouldn't be going to church in someone's house. I'd find a nice large denomination that was trying to work toward the important goals of the religion.

So, here I am.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right!
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

Don
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Too true...
:grouphug:
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Here you are indeed
:hi:
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Hi, yourownself!
:hi:
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. So DU is like the Catholic Church?
:shrug:


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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. All large organizations are like all other large organizations.
In the respect I was discussing.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. My dear MineralMan...
You have accurately explained just what happens. Kudos!

Recommended...

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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Thanks. It's not good or bad. It's just what happens.
It always happens. I've never seen a large group that existed for long without it happening.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
8. So very true. I never want to hear the phrase "Atkins Diet" again... k/r nt
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Dr Morbius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. One thing I've noticed about virtual communities is that the sense of community...
...can be shattered by the perception of unfair treatment. It doesn't really matter whether one poster has or has not been treated unfairly, but if it is widely perceived that he or she got shafted, then trust in the community itself takes a hit.

I've seen good boards go quickly when this happens. Sometimes dozens of regulars drop out, and sometimes they stick around but become disgruntled, and the overall "vibe" turns negative. Disagreement, passionate debate, even raw emotional attack a message board can survive if the overall perception is that everyone will more or less get treated fairly.

I haven't been at DU long enough (less than two months) to make any analytical comments about this particular virtual community. But I have been on the internets enough to recognize that a virtual community is a community, and like all communities requires a sense of trust in the commons. The nature of all communities is different; internet boards are as diverse as the people who post on them. I will make one comment about DU, though: so far, I like it here.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Usually, the larger the organization it, the more likely it is
to survive and even grow, despite the splintering. DU has been around for a long time, in Internet years, and seems to be thriving. The splintering has not reduced its activity, so I expect it will be around for a long time to come.
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CBR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. You are right.
You should see the yoyoing message boards my husband participates in. There are splinters, secret forums, anonymous chans, vendor battles, GBCW flameouts daily, cliques, youtube video battles/flameouts. They have a very small community and yet the drama equals anything on DU. Pretty crazy.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Yoyoing forums? And they're doing the same thing.
I'm not surprised. You should see the fishing forums. They're wild!
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. LOL. Until I read this post I was thinking that "yoyoing" was slang, I
couldn't imagine that actual yoyo enthusists had a forum with so much drama. Live and learn.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. Just like Obama...
...I talk to these people to learn whose ass needs to be kicked.

:kick:
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
15. We're The People's Front of Judea!
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. LOL! The Life of Brian is an all-time favorite,
and it does illustrate my point beautifully. Thanks for the link!
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
16. Great post!
:thumbsup:
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
18. So what took you so long to find DU?
I'd have bet you'd have been among us "old timers..." :shrug:

And your summary of the natural progression of groups and forums is certainly spot on.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I spent some time in an opposition forum, acting as an
agent provocateur. I grew weary of that in time, since it's hard work. I finally decided that I'd go somewhere more attuned to my actual political viewpoint. So, I wrote an opus and boogied. DU is my only political forum now, and I feel right at home here, even if I don't agree with everyone here. But, then, I don't agree with everyone on any subject, so...

I'm on a half dozen other topic forums, though, but none of them are political in any way. DU's my home, and will remain my home.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
20. except there was another thing going in protestantism
that is, local elites. Germany, for example was divided into thousands of little countries, supposedly sovereign within the Holy Roman Empire. Lutherism spread that way - not by people deciding to leave over doctrinal differences, but by their Kings or Dukes deciding to leave, perhaps over doctrinal issues, but more generally for pragmatic reasons of greed and covetousness. When a Duke became a Protestant that meant he got to take all of the Catholic church's property in his dukedom. This generally happened in the north, with states that were further away from Roman power. It was the King of Sweden, either Gustavus Adolphus, or his predecessor who made Sweden a Lutheran nation, not a whole bunch of Swedes deciding they had huge doctrinal differences. Then Gustavus invaded Germany, for some reason, and might have taken over the whole country if disease had not struck hin down. Catholic France and Austria were opposing him, but I would say that Thirty Years War (1618-48) was at least as much about good old secular conquest as it was about religious beliefs.

As for more modern times, I do not find Methodists putting down Presbyterians or vice versa. In the small town, people had friends and family in the other denominations. The Free Methodists and the Nazarenes were very closely aligned. Some smaller churches or stricter ones like Assembly of God may be bigger in stressing their doctrinal purity against other denominations, but often church membership will be a matter of taste and personalities. My parents, when they moved to town tried out various churches and picked one because of the way they were welcomed. Other times there might be a dispute, causing some people to leave, but these are just as likely to be personality and practical disputes, rather than ideological or doctrinal ones. There might be a battle over some building improvement project or a new hymnal.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. You're correct, of course, but as time went by,
the splits continued again and again. Even the Lutheran Church has some variations, some of them radically different from the others. In fact, the recent acceptance by the ELCA of GLBT clergy is about to create a new splinter group.

And then there's The Wisconsin Synod, which has Michele Bachmann as a member. They hate the ELCA, because it's just so damned liberal. It's hilarious to see the things they say about the ELCA. I love denominationialism. It's so entertaining. And all over disagreements about Jesus. Amazing shit.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. not really though
because there was also movement the other way. At least when I was a senior my roommate was talking about some Lutheran branches combining. The UNITED Methodidist church is a combination of the old EUB (Evangelical United Brethern, which was itself a combination) and the Methodist church. In the example you gave also, the disagreement is not "about Jesus" it is about other issues, like homosexuality, or, in the past slavery. There also are ministerial associations in many towns as well as the UN-like National Council of Churches.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. +1
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
22. Imagine the internet of the 1500s
The Papists are trying to enforce message discipline here on Religious Underground!

The heretics are disrupting the board!

Heretics are marginalized and ignored by the church! And always told to wait for reforms! Unfair!

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Do you remember how that turned out?
lol
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Curmudgeoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
23. I agree wholeheartedly. I do not want to listen only to the choir.
Personally, I want to hear several sides of the issue. Since none of us know it "all", we should be open to all opinions. We don't have to like them, and we never have to agree with them, but we should know they exist and at least give thought to them.

I am new posting, have been reading longer, and wish I had found this sooner, although I think it is taking too much of my time. But I appreciate the diverse opinions.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. Actually this could be the Vampire Underground cause it sucks away
at time - hours go by, one's left depleted but the next day one's come back for more. Welcome to DU. :hi:
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Curmudgeoness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. LOL, I do believe you are right. At least I am getting good info while time goes by
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
24. I really don't post on any other discussion groups...
I feel that there is a place for most anyone who has something to offer....

Diversity is strength...
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
26. I large large message boards for the same reasons
But I also like small, cozy boards like this one with a lot of deep, intellectual, geeky discussion (in that case, linguistics and constructed languages).
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. That's true. I'm on a tiny fishing forum in my local area, where
we all fish pretty much the same waters. It's very friendly and there's lots of good information. I think there are only about 50 active posters. It's not a busy forum, but a good one.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-10 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
36. Good post. I don't have the patience for small forums. Conversations
to not move quickly enough for me. I've seen some "forums that discuss other forums" that you mentioned,it would be cool to see a study done as to why some people obsess about anonymous discussion forums on the internet.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
28. This board has tolerated me since the first time the 10 Conservative Idiots
was linked at Buzzflash.

That has got to be some sort of a record.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-20-10 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
33. I'm on a forum for my particular motorcycle that's remarkably free of this sort of discord..
But I know what you mean, it's sort of like driving, anyone going faster than me is an idiot and anyone going slower is a moron..

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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-10 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
35. What a delightful thread!

Thank you, Mr. Mineral Man.

K & R
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