Americans find it difficult to accept that their 'leaders' are war criminals.

[Philosoraptor]

I was talking to a friend the other night about politics and I called bush and cheney and pals war criminals, and my buddy thought I was actually exaggerating, he said they are rotten politicians but they don't rise to the level of a war criminal.

I didn't feel like getting into a debate with my pal but I think it's that he just doesn't want to hear himself say it. He can't get it into his head that they are in the same league as Joseph Mengele or Adolph Hitler or Saddam or Osama.

I believe the whole lot are war criminals, if you make huge profits off of a war that wasn't even necessary, and half a million have died by your decree and 4,000 soldiers are dead for no damned reason other than profit, this qualifies one as a war criminal.

I believe that this disconnect in the heads of millions of Americans, this inability to accept that the men they voted for are war criminals, this totally unacceptable mental conundrum will be the main reason that these men will probably all escape prosecution and justice. The simple fact that millions of Americans simply can't wrap their minds around this. Our president, vice president, and the entire bush cabinet including the PNAC signers are all disgusting, vile, greedy, sub human war pig war criminals, and the reality of it is just too horrific to conceive.

[2008]

1. k&r (nt)

[Double T]

2. The entire bushco regime are certainly war criminals but..........

it goes much further than that. bushco has sold out this nation and this nations economic stability and future making them also traitors. Denial solves everyone's uncomfortable problem.

[indepat]

17. Those who still support/enable knowing the reality of what has gone down, the

enormity of their crimes, are much worse than mere traitors imo: I just can't think of a single word that adequately describes the lot of them.

[Edweird]

3. Their tacit or implicit approval makes them accomplices.

Their denial is stunning.

[populistdriven]

12. Public servants placing Loyalty before the American People

These Neocons need to be excommunicated, stripped of citizenship, have their bank accounts siezed and nationalized, have their properties taken by the feds and sold at auction. Give all the proceeds to whomever, I don't care, even to the RNC if it gets the job done.

FUCK TRIALS - COURTS - JAILS

Just remove them from our country as quickly as possible please dump them off in China / India / Brazil

The only thing Neocons respect / understand as punishment is being treated worse than they treat others.

[Flatulo]

38. Jesus, I'm glad you're not in charge...

> FUCK TRIALS - COURTS - JAILS

Deal with people who have ignored the law and due process by... ignoring the law and due process. Something about that doesn't seem quite right to me...

[populistdriven]

45. How many Neocons are sitting in Jail right now?

I'll wager the same number that will be 3 years from now.

[Flatulo]

46. Maybe so, but we seek redress through the ballot box and the courts, not the pitchfork and bonfire.

Justice moves very slowly here.

Patience.

[populistdriven]

49. ok, you got it :)

[DKRC]

43. I'm with you up to a point

But I say strip them all of US citizenship and dump them on the Hague's doorstep for their trials for war crimes. I have no problem seeing these criminals for what they are & turning them over to be judged and punished by the international laws that they have ridiculed & flauted.

While they're otherwise occupied we've got to restore our Constitution and get our country back on track after 6 years of their blatant dismantling of our democracy.

[conscious evolution]

4. We are the 'good guys'.

The average American has been thouroghly brainwashed into believing this.This indoctrination begins early and is hard to overcome.
I beleive that part of the reason the education system is being destroyed is so that people will not be able to learn from history.Education,or lack of it,is a key component in the indoctrination process.Well educated people are more likely to see reality for what it is.

[ixion]

11. exactly...

spot on, that. :applause:

[merh]

27. you hit the nail on the head

:(

[sandyd921]

47. Yes and another part of it

is the decimation of the media as a source of information about what is really going on. Those who get most of their information from the MSM (the vast majority of the population) and do not access the Internet, progressive radio, etc. tend to be aware of the some of the broad strokes of Bushco's malfeasance in office but are not tuned into or aware of the extent of the corruption and criminality. The elimination of real investigative reporting and the dumbing down of the content are not just the result of corporations watching their bottom line, it is intentional. Both the destruction of the educational system and the media were intentionally designed to allow for fascism to take root.

[conscious evolution]

48. Planned corruption of public institutions

shows malice and premeditation.
Time to bring out RICO on their ass's.

[klyon]

5. Yes and the lying us into war doesn't hurt your case either

People see all Muslims as the enemy. "We were attached you know." They don't understand that everything will not be solved by hitting. "We'll kick their ass" is another popular attitude. Torture, killing innocent people, bombing infrastructure of cities are all war crimes in war but we don't have a war. We have an illegal invasion and occupation of a sovereign country, that is worst than war crimes that is flat out murder. If the President takes our country on military offensive their better be an undeniable, solid, unequivocal case for that need, if not they should pay the ultimate price for such a decision. This President must pay for this.

[Philosoraptor]

6. & of course WE will be the ones to suffer for their acts.

[Broadslidin]

7. A 1930's Style Depression would temporarily Quell our Imperial Narcissism.

:hide:

[Nimrod2005]

8. k

[ChairmanAgnostic]

9. succinct and to the point.

they are all war criminals.

k&r.

[LynnTheDem]

10. Illegally invading a nation is, IN FACT, a war crime.

bush's invasion of Iraq is, IN FACT, illegal.

That IN FACT makes bush & the bush regime war criminals.

Facts may not be palatable, but they remain facts.

[many a good man]

13. In fact, it is the SUPREME war crime

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0310-07.htm
At the Nuremberg trials, the principles of international law identified by the tribunal and subsequently accepted unanimously by the General Assembly of the United Nations included that the planning, preparation or initiation of a war contrary to the terms of an international treaty was "a crime against peace". The tribunal further stated "that to initiate a war of aggression... is not only an international crime, it is the supreme international crime"

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_aggression

And especially:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110904A.shtml

Associate United States Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson was the chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg Tribunal. In his report to the State Department, Justice Jackson wrote: "No political or economic situation can justify" the crime of aggression. He also said: "If certain acts in violation of treaties are crimes they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them, and we are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us."

[Poiuyt]

24. Good post

The supreme international crime

[Senator]

14. Stick With The Torture/Geneva Violations (Impeachment Article I)

While I would agree that the profiteering and "illegal invasion" are arguably war crimes, it is the Geneva Violations/Torture that is the real stain on Our National Soul and our best hope to gain traction on National Redemption and retribution/accountability for the perpetrators.

And it's not simply because we've "got art" on that one -- though it's undeniable that the graphic, personal nature of those atrocities demand attention. But that's also why they do the most (ongoing) damage to the reputation of our once-great nation.

The main reason to concentrate on the torture is that it has the best chance of garnering positive result (impeachment/removal/prosecution). It's pretty much an open and shut case that's already fully revealed on the public record. The only thing remaining is to bolster the political will -- mainly among our DC Dem "leadership" (whose current failure to act against is arguably a war crime in itself) -- to pose the question of whether we retain War Criminal Nation status or reject it -- by rejecting bushcheney personally.

And while it's one thing to remain in denial over horrors about which you have little control, it's quite another to be forced to take a stand on a reality thrust into your lap. This is true of GOP Senators and the public/electorate. Acting to overcome this type of denial is what political leadership is for. Let's hope we've still got some to respond.

Only Impeachment ... is a substantive act against the war crimes.

It IS our positive agenda.

It is our ONLY moral, patriotic option.

--

[DarkTirade]

15. The people of Germany didn't want to believe that Hitler did the things he did either...

For some reason many people just don't seem to be able to come to grips with the fact that people in authority can be downright rotten to the core.

[Philosoraptor]

16. No American could be as evil as the Nazis, impossible!

No true American would exploit the dead of nine eleven would they?

[DarkTirade]

34. Exactly.

I know at least one person (not by choice... he's dating a family member) who voted for Bush because he just couldn't believe that all the bad things said about him could be true.

[riverwalker]

18. the war was an epiphany

I realized that in any town in America, if concentration camps were set up in the suburbs and if trainloads of boxcars arrived full of victims and left empty, they would not lift a finger to stop it. They would not question the smoke from the crematoriums. They would not ask. My neighbors, my fellow citizens, would do absolutely nothing. I know that now.
This makes us worse than the nazis, we had precedent and recent history of WW2, we KNEW what happens when the people refuse to look. Still and now in denial.

[whosinpower]

19. This is the number one reason why impeachment is off the table

Because to openly admit that Bushco is a war criminal will fracture the nation in ways we can hardly concieve. That is why it was so easy to impeach Clinton. America's view of itself would remain intact......but to impeach a president for going to war under false pretenses......and declare them war criminals would break the country.

What they have done is truly criminal. And they deserve to be spend the rest of their days in prison.....or, if you are advocates of the treatment that Hussein recieved, then that is a possibility.

Perhaps pigs will fly and the republicans will bring forth articles of impeachment. It would be the only way to restore any sense of credibility to that party.

[stubtoe]

28. Tend to agree.

I fear we will have to wait for history's writing to unveil the complete extent of the criminality of this Administration.

A big chunk of the electorate thought they were voting for "God's candidate", fer chrissake. Psychologically, they're unprepared to accept their complicity, or that they were soooo easily fooled.

[Demeter]

39. The Nation's Already Fractured

This would just rip off the wallpaper and bandaids.

[OnyxCollie]

41. Denial is the public's psychological defense.

If all the crimes of the administration were laid out before the public, how irreparably damaging could you imagine it would be?

9/11: Yeah, we made that happen. Worked pretty well, didn't it? Pretty easy too, what with all the new-fangled gadgets we got. We made a lot of money off that.

The anthrax attacks: Yeah, we made that happen too. Scared the hell out of Congress and made sure they wouldn't fuck with us. 'Specially that bastard Daschle. Wouldn't allow us to wiretap from the start. We showed him. We showed those tabloid rags, too. No more pictures of my whorish daughters.

The war in Afghanistan: Didn't give a shit. There's nothing to bomb there. Goddamn Daschle passed the AUMF that was specific to the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. What the fuck did I care about them? I even said so six months later.

I could go on and on but I think you get the point. The crimes of the * administration are a true glimpse into hell. When I think about them, I experience a sense of dread and sorrow that I never thought possible. Most would say, "Stop thinking about them. It doesn't effect you." Or "Why would I want to clutter my beautiful mind?"

But for the myriad of crimes and sins committed, they can all be boiled down to two things: Make money and steal elections. This people can understand, but sadly, they expect a level of corruption in government. "They're all bad. Democrats and Republicans."

As I had said in a different thread, it's no different than proving to someone that God doesn't exist. Nobody's looking out for your security. Nobody's checking your food for poison. Nobody's taking care of the environment. Nobody's doing anything to help you, but you can be damn sure they're helping themselves. It's one step above the state of nature. The public are nothing more than servants to an elite society.

And we question the popularity of American Idol?

However, I believe if there is anything that may take down bushco, it's the U.S. Attorney scandal. Congress and the White House can duke it out, and the public will be content with that because nothing will really change in their world. It's safe for general consumption.

[OnyxCollie]

42. Denial is the public's psychological defense.

If all the crimes of the administration were laid out before the public, how irreparably damaging could you imagine it would be?

9/11: Yeah, we made that happen. Worked pretty well, didn't it? Pretty easy too, what with all the new-fangled gadgets we got. We made a lot of money off that.

The anthrax attacks: Yeah, we made that happen too. Scared the hell out of Congress and made sure they wouldn't fuck with us. 'Specially that bastard Daschle. Wouldn't allow us to wiretap from the start. We showed him. We showed those tabloid rags, too. No more pictures of my whorish daughters.

The war in Afghanistan: Didn't give a shit. There's nothing to bomb there. Goddamn Daschle passed the AUMF that was specific to the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. What the fuck did I care about them? I even said so six months later.

I could go on and on but I think you get the point. The crimes of the * administration are a true glimpse into hell. When I think about them, I experience a sense of dread and sorrow that I never thought possible. Most would say, "Stop thinking about them. It doesn't effect you." Or "Why would I want to clutter my beautiful mind?"

But for the myriad of crimes and sins committed, they can all be boiled down to two things: Make money and steal elections. This people can understand, but sadly, they expect a level of corruption in government. "They're all bad. Democrats and Republicans."

As I had said in a different thread, it's no different than proving to someone that God doesn't exist. Nobody's looking out for your security. Nobody's checking your food for poison. Nobody's taking care of the environment. Nobody's doing anything to help you, but you can be damn sure they're helping themselves. It's one step above the state of nature. The public are nothing more than servants to an elite society.

And we question the popularity of American Idol?

However, I believe if there is anything that may take down bushco, it's the U.S. Attorney scandal. Congress and the White House can duke it out, and the public will be content with that because nothing will really change in their world. It's safe for general consumption.

[Lost4words]

20. I find it hard not seeing them at the end of a rope, frankly.

[Madspirit]

32. I Don't Support the Death Penalty

...and my ethics go across the board. Otherwise they aren't really ethics. They are just favoritism for some and not for others.

I don't support anyone, not ANYONE EVER, being at the end of a rope.

I do agree that Bush and cohorts are war criminals.
Lee

[Grandrose]

21. You nailed it.....

with such clarity, thank you!:applause: I just wonder, when will it come to a head and the reality of it all sink in.
What kind of retribution will there be, if any?:shrug: :kick:

[Pachamama]

22. Like the Germans, Americans will eventually with horror realize this to be true and their own role

in allowing it to happen. I truly, truly believe that I will see in my lifetime, Bush and Cheney's lifetime, that they will be charged with war crimes and crimes against humanity, if not in the US, in Int'l Criminal Court and they will either stand trial or be fugitives from justice, living in some 3rd World Country with a Gov't willing to take bribes and allow them to stay in exile from the law.

Also, add Treasonous Bastards to the description of these vile creatures....

[porphyrian]

23. Not this American, and it's obvious I'm not alone. - n/t

[Hissyspit]

25. They are war criminals in the legal sense. It is entirely defensible to refer to them that way.

In both a Constitutional and international law-based sense, they fit definitions of war criminals, and in that sense, it doesn't matter what your friend thinks. It does affect things, of course, the phenomenon to which you refer, but in a strict legal-based Nuremburg trials-precedent debate, they would be found war criminals.

Ask your friend, if you and I went to speak to a dead Iraqi child, if we could, and said to the child, this man here is set off the events, through lies and manipulations, that resulted in your death and the death of your family, and now that man refuses to take responsibility for what they did, refuses to attend any funerals of the dead, refuses to quit getting people killed, what would that child think? What would that child want to know about legalities? Had the child had the chance to grow up, what kind of adult opinion would that child have formed?

The truth was known in 2002 and was suppressed and ignored. That alone is a war crime.

You are correct, Philosoraptor, in that Americans don't want to admit that their leaders are war criminals because it would be an admittance of their own complicity.

[Kansas Wyatt]

26. Once Americans Admit That...

Then the thought of a very real possibility that the American President, Vice President, etc. etc. would be brought to justice by the world, comes next. Americans are not prepared to even consider the President, Vice President, etc. etc. could be brought into a world court to be prosecuted, tried, judged, and sentenced or executed.

[dogday]

29. They don't know the whole story of this Administration

A lot of us here at DU have known for years about the war and the deceit it was based on.. Only now are people coming around to realize that the war is and was a mistake...

[Warren Stupidity]

30. Bush I Clinton Bush II - over 1,000,000 dead Iraqis.

And that does not count Gulf Farce I, which it should as we conned Saddam into that war in order to establish our base of operations in the middle east.

Once your country has crossed the 1,000,000 victims mark you are simply a nation of war criminals. That we cannot deal with our crimes is typical of our national malaise. We cannot accept the plain facts about a whole list of the manifestly obvious. For starters:

1) catastrophic climate change;
2) peak oil;
3) the idiocy of the war against some drugs, the obvious corruption of the prison industrial complex;
4) pervasive corruption of both instutionalized political parties;
5) the obvious conspiracy to create a global 'warnterra' in order to further the corrupt aims of the ruling elites;
6) evolution;


I could go on. We are a nation of willfully stupid people.

[Madspirit]

31. k&r

It's the spoiled American sense of entitlement. We have a RIGHT to control the world and do whatever we want because WE ARE 'MARKINS.

...and we're UGLY.

I agree with the OP.
Lee

[earth mom]

33. Yes-people are in denial big time-but wouldn't be if we had an ethical & truthful media.

That's why we need Rosie O'Donnell exposing the criminals on mainstream t.v. Sure, Olbermann is great-but not everyone has cable-I don't and my computer is too old to watch him online. But Rosie was telling the masses the truth except the PTB found a way to get rid of her. Damn them! :grr:

[Time for change]

35. I agree absolutely

I said something similar in a recent post, except that it encompassed a wider period of time:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x865591

[struggle4progress]

36. Could Bush Be Prosecuted for War Crimes?

By Jan Frel, AlterNet. Posted July 10, 2006.

~snip~ Perhaps no person on the planet is better equipped to identify and describe our crimes in Iraq than Benjamin Ferencz, a former chief prosecutor of the Nuremberg Trials who successfully convicted 22 Nazi officers for their work in orchestrating death squads that killed more than one million people in the famous Einsatzgruppen Case. Ferencz, now 87, has gone on to become a founding father of the basis behind international law regarding war crimes, and his essays and legal work drawing from the Nuremberg trials and later the commission that established the International Criminal Court remain a lasting influence in that realm.

Ferencz's biggest contribution to the war crimes field is his assertion that an unprovoked or "aggressive" war is the highest crime against mankind. It was the decision to invade Iraq in 2003 that made possible the horrors of Abu Ghraib, the destruction of Fallouja and Ramadi, the tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths, civilian massacres like Haditha, and on and on. Ferencz believes that a "prima facie case can be made that the United States is guilty of the supreme crime against humanity, that being an illegal war of aggression against a sovereign nation." ~snip~

"The United Nations charter has a provision which was agreed to by the United States formulated by the United States in fact, after World War II. Its says that from now on, no nation can use armed force without the permission of the U.N. Security Council. They can use force in connection with self-defense, but a country can't use force in anticipation of self-defense. Regarding Iraq, the last Security Council resolution essentially said, 'Look, send the weapons inspectors out to Iraq, have them come back and tell us what they've found -- then we'll figure out what we're going to do. The U.S. was impatient, and decided to invade Iraq -- which was all pre-arranged of course. So, the United States went to war, in violation of the charter."

It's that simple. Ferencz called the invasion a "clear breach of law," and dismissed the Bush administration's legal defense that previous U.N. Security Council resolutions dating back to the first Gulf War justified an invasion in 2003. Ferencz notes that the first Bush president believed that the United States didn't have a U.N. mandate to go into Iraq and take out Saddam Hussein; that authorization was simply to eject Hussein from Kuwait. Ferencz asked, "So how do we get authorization more than a decade later to finish the job? The arguments made to defend this are not persuasive." ~snip~

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/38604/

Here's his website:
http://www.benferencz.org/arts/83.html

[Cerridwen]

37. K & R

I have no additional words to add. You said it so well.

[stillcool]

40. Something I took note of...

from the book "The Power Elite" C. Wright Mills 1956

"Caesar could do less with Rome, than Napoleon with France. Napoleon Less with France than Lenin with Russia, and Lenin less with Russia than Hitler with Germany. But what was Caesars power at it's peak compared with the power of the changing inner circle of Soviet Russia or of America's temporary administrations? The men of either circle can cause great cities to be wiped out in a single night, and in a few weeks turn continents into thermo-nuclear wastelands. That the facilities of power are enormously enlarged and decisively centralized means that the decisions of small groups are now more consequential."

.......and here we are fifty years later.

[Philosoraptor]

44. .............