CHETRY: Eleven and a half minutes past the hour now.
The uproar over the Islamic center and mosque near Ground Zero has taken over everything from the news cycle to political debate going on right now in this country.
And "TIME" magazine is the first news organization that's actually been allowed to film prayers going on inside of the site, of the Park 51 mosque. A look now at it. This was shot during evening prayers marking a holy month of Ramadan, which continues until early September, as part of "TIME's" investigation for its upcoming cover story, "Is America Islamophobic?"
The article is written by "TIME's" deputy international editor, Bobby Ghosh. And he joins us now.
And thank for being with us. Bobby, you've also spent a lot of time, as we know, in Baghdad. You were the bureau chief there for "TIME" magazine.
So, I want to ask you first about the news overnight. You know, the breaking news last night dramatically, just like we all, 7 1/2 years ago, watched the beginning of the shock-and-awe campaign live. Last night, live, we are watching the last of the combat troops rolling into Kuwait and sort of the gates closing on that.
As we look to that, and we look at what we've learned and how far we have come with the past 7 1/2 years in Iraq, what is your take on what we left behind?
BOBBY GHOSH, TIME MAGAZINE: Well, to start with, we are still -- we left behind 50,000 American soldiers who are not necessarily combat soldiers, but who are combat enabled -- which means if the situation in Iraq continues to deteriorate, as it has in recent months, some of those soldiers may find themselves once again in harm's way and once again having to go out and actually engage in combat operations. We hope that is not the case.
We've left behind a country that now has a form of democracy. It is very messy. Perhaps it was always going to be messy. It's certainly going to be unsettled and unstable for a very long time to come.
There's -- you will notice that there are not a lot of Iraqis sending us "thank you" cards as the American military leaves. It's a part of the world that is now in some ways more unstable than it was 10 years ago. The U.S. presence has contributed -- although not exclusively -- to that instability.
CHETRY: I want to ask you, though, about anything good -- I mean, anything good come of the seven years sacrificing trillions of dollars and thousands of lives?
GHOSH: Yes, of course. Iraqis are much freer now than they were under Saddam Hussein. Most Iraqis are grateful for Saddam Hussein being removed from their lives. As I said, there's some form of democracy -- Iraqis have more freedoms to express themselves, more freedom to elect their leaders, more freedom to travel, more freedom to leave. They have a free media.
All of these things are important gains. At some point in this country, they'll have to be a discussion about the costs that the United States paid. And in Iraq, there's also a discussion about the costs that country paid and the lives of ordinary Iraqis, civilians, who died, in achieving all these things.
CHETY: It's interest when you take a look at what people think about it. Has the U.S. achieved its goals in Iraq? This was asked earlier in the month, CNN/Opinion Research poll -- nearly 70 percent of people said no.
GHOSH: Yes, because it was -- because those goals when they were set by President Bush were unrealistic and very, very large. We were not just going into Iraq to remove a dictator. We were going to change the political landscape of the Middle East, and this one democracy would then lead to a number of democracies all over the Middle East and the whole world would change. That's a very unreasonable expectation, and, of course, I'm not surprised. People say we haven't --
CHETRY: We have downgraded those, quote, "goals," or, you know, over time, and then people still -- overwhelmingly are --- don't believe that we've reached them in Iraq. And as you said, I mean, this is something we'll have to see as support role continues for U.S. troops. The actual combat role is over.
I want to change topics, though, and talk about the cover story in "Time" magazine. Is America Islamophobic? And the subtext is what the anti-mosque uproar tells us about how the U.S. regards Muslims, do you believe that this -- debate, this highly charged emotional debate over the really renovation almost because of a mosque is already there --
GHOSH: Yes.
CHETRY: -- it typifies how people feel on larger scale about Muslims in America?
GHOSH: Well let me clarify. You don't have to be an Islamophobe to have reservations about this particular project. You don't have to be prejudice to have very genuine concerns about it. But what we have seen in the process of this debate and about mosques, not just here in New York but all over the country, is that there has been a vicious -- some very vicious, it's a very vicious hate speech has entered the mainstream of the discussion in this country. And that is -- we are seeing some Islamophobe views been expressed by people who we wouldn't have expected it from. When you have legitimate political figures comparing the religion of Islam to Nazism. That is something on a scale that we have never seen before.
CHETRY: I want to -- people are going to wonder what we are talking about.
GHOSH: Yes.
CHETRY: So I want to read what Newt Gingrich said. Newt Gingrich is against the mosque being built that close to ground zero and what he said in the Nazi comparison is quote. "Nazis don't have the right to put up a sign next the holocaust museum in Washington. There is no reason to accept a mosque next to the World Trade Center. Is that -- that's something, of course, received a lot of attention. Do you think that's the main sentiment, though, of people who oppose the mosque? Which the majority of people polled, New Yorkers, as well as others, do oppose it being built there.
GHOSH: That's not the only reason. There are lots of people who feel not unreasonably they emotionally attached to that particular space. There are people who are concerned genuinely for the feelings of the families of the victims at the World Trade Center. There are people that have -- as I said, perfectly legitimate reasons to have concerned. But what this debate has done is brought out from previously what was in the fringes into the mainstream along reasonable people, a lot of hate speech and a lot of very vicious hate speech that we haven't heard before.
CHETRY: And not just the mosque debate. The controversy over this one. But we have seen a bit of a change many say over the past few years. Any of it linked to the fact that we've seen more instances of either attempted or homegrown terror that we thought, I mean after 9/11 a lot of people said this is a problem the United States doesn't have, what Europe has, problem with radicalization within the borders. And we have the Times Square bomber and few other thwarted attempts or plots. Has that added to this fear and feeling that Islam in America perhaps is radical in some ways?
GHOSH: Absolutely. There is certainly alarm that has grown in concern and suspicion. But there are also people who are taking advantage of this for political reasons. Who are taking advantage of this concern, who are take advantage of the fact that a lot of Americans don't know very much about Islam. It is a very small religion in this country. Compared with some other places in the world. So many Americans and we have a poll that shows us we don't really know that much about it.
So - and now you have people, who for political reasons are taking advantage of the combination of fear and lack of knowledge and adding to this toxic language. And are spreading sometimes, knowing full well, spreading lies and misrepresentations about the faith. And are tarring and entire community, and entire religion with -- that they are all from -- all potentially terrorists. That your neighbor, who is an American citizen, and -- by all polling proud to be an American citizen, happens to be a Muslim, may potentially someone who is talking against us.
We have polling that shows this is attitude is now beginning to spread. We have nearly two-thirds of the people that the poll said they had a negative or not positive view about Islam. Lots of people say that they -- that American Muslims may not be patriotic. Nearly a quarter of the people said American - they thought American Muslims were not patriotic. Another quarter were not sure if they were patriotic. And this sort of doubt and suspicion just seems to be growing and because of these controversies over the mosques that said -- these are now coming to the mainstream.
CHETRY: Well it is a very thoughtful piece. And we appreciate your sharing some of your insights with us this morning.
Bobby Ghosh great to talk to you, as always, thank you.
GHOSH: Thanks for having me.
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