PIC: Nun vs. Muslim girl--what's the diff?

[yurbud]

To answer my own question, the Muslim girl might be cute, the nun, meh.





I asked a Muslim guy whose wife I knew if he made her wear the headscarf since she does, and he laughed and said, "You know her! Do you think I can make her do ANYTHING?"

While it might not be true of all, there is at least some chance that Muslim women wearing the headscarf choose to do so, just as if an American woman went to a French beach she might keep her bikini top on because she chooses to not because she fears her husband or father.

[Catherina]

1. Rec'd n/t

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yurbud]

18. actually there are rules for guys too and you'll notice their clergy wear those flowing robes

that don't outline their package.

[IDHow]

I'm not talking about the clergy, I'm talking about ordinary people

It's basically like medieval Europe this obsession Muslims have with controlling their females' sexuality, and only the females. The males basically do whatever they want, I dont see them wearing any burqas, while their sisters in hijab claim they are "not discriminated against". Right.

[immoderate]

75. Actually Muslim men must cover up.

From mid abdomen to below the knee. Beards, headgear, lots of rules. Males are likely to be hypocritical about following rules, but many, including some Christians and Jews are just as "medieval" as their Islamic counterparts.

While the misogyny abounds, there are certainly rules *cough* for males that are pretty nuts. OK, so they get the benefit of the doubt. That the males control the females is an illusion of control, as they are controlled.

--imm

[IDHow]

88. I know about these "rules" about beard and and not showing their wiener and stuff

that's hardly equal to the extreme control of women, and as you say, 99.9% of men dont care about it either, and the women have no way of enforcing it on the males. If men were forced to wear the burqa, the law wouldn't last a day.

[iris27]

267. And every time I come across a Muslim family in summer, it seems the dad and sons are in

tanks and shorts, while the mom and daughters are in full hijab, if not niqab. The men are supposed to at least be covered to their wrists and ankles, too...but I never see it.

[immoderate]

336. Religious people are hypocrites? I'm shocked!

I'm an atheist, and I invite you to smack me silly if you catch me breaking one of the rules. (We don't countenance stoning.)

--imm

[haifa lootin]

339. One hundred percent of the beliefs and practices of all religions are

manifestations of insanity. It's absolutely astonishing that here in the twenty first century there are still human beings who believe (or even just claim to believe) in imaginary deities...it's just very discouraging.

[immoderate]

340. It would be nice if that were true.

If it is insanity, then we could give people anti-psychotic drugs and they would snap out of it. Religion and theism is a natural extension of human's tendency to provide "closure" to a perception, by filling in causes and relationships that may or may not exist. This pattern seeking served us well in our hunter and agrarian phases. And it's only been a short time since we emerged from tribalism.

People's political beliefs are not much different. They may be irrational. But it's dangerous to label people insane because of their beliefs. That makes it even harder. I'd love to see some supply-siders "taken away," but that could happen to Marxists as well.

In a colloquial sense though, I agree with you.

--imm

[haifa lootin]

341. You're right...I'm no clinician and meant 'insane' as you say colloquially

rather than as a documented DSM-IV category (athough 297.1 is tempting)...;-)

Hopefullly this isn't out of line here, but I find this place hugely interesting:
http://www.godisimaginary.com

(it isn't my site and I have no connection to it, I just think it's terrific)

[immoderate]

342. It's sometimes difficult. I frequently engage Christians in live debate forums.

It's sometimes quite a challenge being civil. (Their ravings are so irrational.) <-- example of being civil :)

Looks like you're new here, so welcome to DU. Take some time to visit our amazing Atheists and Agnostics Group. :hi:

--imm

[haifa lootin]

344. Thanks for the referral, I hadn't noticed it!

I'll drop in. :D

[Dorian Gray]

182. To be fair

it's the burqa that people have problems with, not the head scarf. Personally, I don't think that the USA shoudl make laws against wearing the burqa in public, however, those who do wear it are more likely to be coerced into doing so than those who wear head scarves. There is a difference between modesty and facelessness.

[defendandprotect]

35. Where are the average guys wearing burquas or veils ... ???

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

55. Oh, I don't know. Seventy-two virgins, polygamy, not allowed out except with male relatives,....

[superduperfarleft]

59. Polygamy, menstruating women being "unclean" for 7 days, women not being allowed in the clergy...

forced birth, etc.

All religion is about control, oftentimes control of women. None of them are better or worse than the others. Singling out Islam is only fashionable because many of its adherents are brown people.

[Chulanowa]

65. Gotta find some way to dehumanize Muslims so it's more fun to kill them

Just like they did with my folks, and with black people, and with Jews, and so on...

[sufrommich]

68. Oh bullshit. A woman's right to the same freedoms as men is

not "dehumanizing muslims so we can kill them".

[Chulanowa]

78. Absolutely she is

And the fact that you and many other posters are assuming that all Muslim women are stupid apes who are utterly, UTTERLY incapable of deciding how to dress themselves is what i'm basing my statements on, tyhat you are dehumanizing them so that you can get more joy when they die - or at least less guilt.

[sufrommich]

86. What a ridiculous post. I'm assuming all muslim women are

more than capable of dressing themselves. Unfortunately, in some muslim countries, that fact is moot.


Every post you make that accuses those who stand up for the rights of women as being proof positive that we secretly want to kill them is absurd. Your whole argument seems to be that calling for women's rights in countries where they lack the basic right of dressing themselves is an act of war.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

101. It's not just Muslim countries where women are dictated to...don't forget France...

And let's not forget those DUers who hide behind excuses of supporting the rights of women in their quest to dictate what women should be forced not to wear...

btw, I know of very few countries where women are forced to dress in a particular way (Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan being two). The impression you appear to be trying to give is that this is more common than not when it comes to countries with a Muslim majority. I don't think that's the case at all...

[sufrommich]

106. I'm not in favor of France dictating what a woman can

wear anymore than I am any place else.

[Violet_Crumble]

118. France is dictating what women can't wear, not what they can wear...

And forcing women not to wear things is every bit as hateful of women as forcing them to, wouldn't you agree?

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TroglodyteScholar]

222. If your prescriptions have run out...

...there's an Rx number on the bottle. Please call your pharmacy ASAP, because you are speaking in nonsense.

[Chulanowa]

330. How dare I think Muslim women are as capable of thinking as nonmuslim women!

I MUST BE CRAZY!

Fuck you

[TroglodyteScholar]

331. If that was all you'd said, I wouldn't have commented. n/t

[Chulanowa]

337. I've been saying two things on this thread

1) Muslim women have the ability and the right to dress as they please
and
2) The people here painting 2.5 billion human beings as one and all being either brainwashed oppressed subhumans or savage oppressive monsters are fucking bigots

I'm not sure how you can be supportive of the notion that Muslim women have rights, while at the same time you're also supporting open hatred towards 2.5 billion people on the basis that they accept Mohammed as a prophet. 'Cause that's the absolute limit of your knowledge about any given Muslim. When you are equating a fourth of the world's population with the Saudi Mutawas, you are being a bigoted motherfucker. When you are using this bigotry to justify further bigotry, it only makes you a bigger bigot. They don't cancel each other out.

[TroglodyteScholar]

350. No, you're saying all kinds of crazy shit

And then when someone calls you on it, you act like you've only said very simple things that every sane person agrees with. It's a cheap tactic, and you should quit it.

[Chulanowa]

352. I notice you've failed to specify any "crazy shit"

I think an majority of people on this thread are islamophobic dumbfucks. Maybe that's impolite, but given the many posts backing me up, it's certainly not crazy-talk.

[yurbud]

71. Frederick Douglass said it best: if you are going to treat someone unjustly, you have to do one of

two things:

1. Feel guilty until you change your behavior.

2. Convince yourself that they deserve it, and the worse you treat them, the worse they need to deserve it.

[IDHow]

76. Is women's rights only for white, Christian women?

Why not just rename all women's rights organizations as organizations for the rights of white women?

[Chulanowa]

79. Apparently you think so

Since only white christian women have a right to dress as they please in your world.

Interestingly, most feminist organizations DO only concern themselves with the White protestant American vision of the world. So I guess you're ahead of the curve on that one.

[IDHow]

84. It's not only about dress but about control of women in general

Regarding why most feminist organizations only care about white women and not the brown ones, are basically because of people like you who think they are racists if they care. A twisted logic indeed.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

94. So if women in fundamentalist controlled muslim nations decide

to NOT wear burqas they are free to do so?

No one here is claiming a woman in the US or any such place should be excoriated for wearing a burqa. I cannot recall anything but undying support on DU for muslim women who CHOOSE to dress as they see fit.

So your accusation is without foundation in fact.

[Chulanowa]

130. Actually, most posters here ARE saying that

After all, they're speaking of "Muslims" - not Saudis, not Iranians. When you make a blanket statement, you're talking about EVERYONE under that blanket.

"Blacks are lazy animals! ...Wait, I didn't mean YOU, man, just all those other lazy black animals! No, not your cousin, all those lazy black animals except for him... I'M NOT A BIGOT!!!"

If you think there's support on DU for women who choose to wear the hijab or anything else vaguely Islamic, then, well, I'd like to know what the URL for this super-secret DU is, 'cause the one I have at http://www.democraticunderground.com most fucking certainly does NOT have any such support. Your alter-DU sounds like it might be a cool place, hook a fella up!

And no, those women are not free to do so - and they absolutely SHOULD be. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to get at here, but it seems to be the usual sad attempt at equivalency.

[IDHow]

96. I have not said that every woman in headscarf is,

but a huge proportion of Muslim women are shackled and treated like the serfs of medieval times who are owned by their men, and it is a shame that women's organizations that now have won the power and privelige that so many women in the world lack, don't dare to fight for these women because of being afraid of being labeled racists.

[Chulanowa]

131. Got some numbers?

[yurbud]

117. nope, but right now these regressive religious practices are being used as an excuse to kill

Muslim men, women, and children.

You have no rights when you are dead.

And clearly our government is not primarily motivated by women's rights or we would be occupying Saudi to end the theocracy there right now instead of occupying the previously secular Iraq.

[IDHow]

67. Most Christians are also what you call "brown"

I agree that Christianity is also about control of women, but the mainstream Christianity is not as harsh as Islam is today. Hijab was not common on Muslim women 60 years ago, but from the 1970s and onwards it has become more and more common in most of the Muslim world. Islam has reformed, but in a more conservative and intolerant direction. Saudi Arabian oil money in bed with the US has something to do with that.

[leftynyc]

103. Bullshit

There are plenty of white Muslims and plenty of brown Jews and Christians. Try that bullshit someplace else.

[superduperfarleft]

114. To you and the other guy: the existence of brown Jews & Christians does absolutely nothing to prove

or disprove my point. Most Americans are unaware that Jews & Christians flourished in Saddam's Iraq, and even live peacefully in theocratic regimes like Iran.

And when Sikhs are being assaulted after 9/11 and even while protesting against the mosque in NYC, you can't tell me there's not a racial (instead of religious) component to the anti-muslim sentiment.

[leftynyc]

137. Most Americans don't post on DU

so that's more bullshit coming from you. Nobody here claimed what happened to Sikhs after 9/11 wasn't racism. Your lashing out is getting very tiresome.

[superduperfarleft]

141. How in the hell am I lashing out?

I posted one thing and you respond with "BULLLLLSHITITTTT!!!!WARBLE GARBLE!"

"Nobody here claimed what happened to Sikhs after 9/11 wasn't racism. "

Um, wasn't it you that just posted that the anti-islam sentiment in the US right now is not racially-motivated?

[leftynyc]

147. That incident was racism

You claimed it was ALL racism. That's bullshit.

[superduperfarleft]

150. So, a Sikh gentleman shows up to join christians in protesting the NYC mosque,

and without provocation is physically attacked. Just like the Sikhs that were attacked after 9/11. And you mean I'm NOT supposed to draw from these related incidents that anti-muslim hysteria is due to the color of the skin of many of its adherents, as opposed to reasonable disagreement with Islam itself?

Sure....

[IDHow]

152. I think you are painting with a too big brush here

Just because there are racists around doesn't mean that there are not real and very objectionable issues with how islam is practiced by many Muslims that needs to be addressed.

[superduperfarleft]

153. I'm intentionally not trying to paint with a broad brush.

It's the posters screaming "muslim women are oppressed!" that are doing so.

Edit: the only broad brush I admit I'm engaging in is saying that ALL religions are nuts when brought to their inevitable conclusions.

[IDHow]

158. So you are unintentionally painting with a broad brush? Why?

[superduperfarleft]

161. Please point out the broad brush. Thanks. n/t

And for the record, drawing my own conclusions about the motivations of many of the anti-Islam crowd based on their past actions is not a broad brush attack. I'm simply responding to the evidence at hand.

[IDHow]

169. Your whole argument is to try to lump everyone together as some sort of evil racists, so your

concern about broad-brushing is a hollow one.

[superduperfarleft]

176. I said many behind the anti-islam sentiment in this country are motivated by racism.

If you're not in that category, then I wasn't talking about you, was I?

[IDHow]

187. You were talking about racial component being part of this whole "sentiment" you are objecting to

and trying to portray people who have real and objectionable issues with Islam as part of this whole "sentiment" with racist agendas.

Let's just agree that Islam needs to be radically reformed from its current mainstream interpretations to be a force for progress for all of humanity.

[superduperfarleft]

191. I'm saying those with the loudest mouths rarely have real issues with Islam other than it's

scary and practiced by brown people.

"Let's just agree that Islam needs to be radically reformed from its current mainstream interpretations to be a force for progress for all of humanity."

Religion will never be a force for progress for all humanity. It all eventually ends up exactly how radical Islam has ended up now.

[Violet_Crumble]

219. And you still haven't explained what yr 'issues' with MANY Muslims is...

You said in this sub-thread that you have problems with how MANY Muslims practice their religion and still haven't answered the question I asked you about what these problems are, or what constitutes *many*. No matter, I suspect that if yr given enough time you'll embark on the 'There Is No Such Thing As Islamophobia, And Anyone Who Says Otherwise Is A Bigot!' routine and start singing the praises of Pamela Geller as being the poster-girl of feminism in her wholesome fight against the evils of Islam...

[Violet_Crumble]

162. You were the one broadbrushing, not them n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

155. So you respond by painting with a bigger brush in an ugly colour?

And what is the problem with how *many* Muslims practice their religion? What constitutes *many*?

[Chulanowa]

175. "Many" is just a CYOA way of saying "all" for some people

Sort of like the fox news question mark prophylactic.

[Violet_Crumble]

220. CYOA? What does that mean?

In the case of that poster, they've clearly got a rather nasty agenda they're running with, as even if they meant 'many' to mean the majority of, that claim in itself is problematic as the majority of Muslims are no more an issue than the majority of Christians are...

[Chulanowa]

329. Cover Your Own Ass

[leftynyc]

163. That's exactly what I'm saying

the assholes in this country would hate Muslims if they were white as snow. They're the same ones who condemn what we did in Kosovo.

[superduperfarleft]

164. But why do they hate muslims? What's their motivation?

I say racism, based on their past behavior, yet you seem to disagree. I'm willing to listen to your ideas.

[leftynyc]

172. I don't think it's racism

I think it's a Christian superiority complex. The bozos in Muslim countries that scream "death to America" and "kill the infidels" are merely playing right into their hands.

[superduperfarleft]

177. So why not go after Jews as overtly as they do Muslims? And why go after Sikhs at all? n/t

[leftynyc]

184. That's a whole other story

that has to do with Christian Dominist and another Christian fundy sect whose name escapes me at the moment. They have no great love for the Jews - they simply need Israel to exist for their revelation fantasy to happen so they're big supporters of the country of Israel who happens to be run by Jews at the moment. The people who went after the Sikhs after 9/11 and at the Park51 demonstration are just assholes who think any man wearing something on their head that isn't a baseball cap is a Muslim - it wouldn't matter what color they are.

[superduperfarleft]

192. The Dominionists are exactly why I don't hesitate to point out

that if US christian fundies had a reasonable chance to implement a Saudi Arabian-style theocracy here, they would in a heartbeat.

"it wouldn't matter what color they are."

Do you think they'd have attacked an Hasidic Jew (hat, beard, etc.)? I doubt it. They were going after people who "look" muslim, and you know what that means.

[leftynyc]

198. You think Muslim = brown

I maintain it was the headwear that is the issue. Even if the person was white, if they were wearing the kind of headgear we've all seen in Muslim countries, they would be a target. That moron mouth breating rednecks can't tell the difference between that headgear and a Sikh headgear is besides the point. Hasidic Jews wear tall black hats (or just a yarmulke) so I don't think they would be mistaken for a Muslim.

I think our first amendment, while not perfect, is the very reason this country will not become a theocracy regardless of how much the dominists want it. We're the only country (that I can think of, if I'm mistaken, please let me know)that has such a edict as part of our founding document.

[superduperfarleft]

199. I DON'T think muslim automatically equals brown, and that's the point.

Just like black doesn't automatically equal gangbanger, but you can't tell me that's not a widespread and pernicious stereotype.

[superduperfarleft]

200. I DON'T think muslim automatically equals brown, and that's the point.

Just like black doesn't automatically equal gangbanger, but you can't tell me that's not a widespread and pernicious stereotype.

[yurbud]

335. Sikhs were probably attacked for wearing a turban which Americans wrongly think is Muslim

[onpatrol98]

111. ???

"Singling out Islam is only fashionable because many of its adherents are brown people."

Is the sarcasm icon missing, was this a joke, or was this actually meant to be serious...especially considering many "brown" people are Christians, Athiests, etc?

[superduperfarleft]

116. Of course there's no sarcasm.

And again, the existence of christian, atheist, or jewish "brown people" does nothing to prove or disprove my point about anti-muslim sentiment having a racial component instead of a genuine, sincere concern for the women who are victimized by this particular religion.

[Chulanowa]

148. That's a fact

And facts sometimes don't factor into reality. Weird, huh?

In this case, in America, "Christian" is generally synonymous with "white" - because American Christianity is overwhelmingly dominated and represented by people and ideals from European Protestantism and Catholicism. Which is why you hear talk of "black churches" but almost never "white churches" - the white is implied in "church" so we have to make the distinction for a predominantly nonwhite church. Additionally, black congregations (or Chinese, or Mexican, or whoever) are almost always considered "different" - the standard is held as a white european one.

Judaism in America is almost completely represented by European Jews and their descendants, as well. There are not very many Falasha or Sephardim or Temani in the United States, are there? I'm sure there's a few, but they're not very representative.

Islam on the other hand is seen as a "foreign" religion being imported by Arabs and Asians and being adopted by blacks. Though there are certainly white Muslims, they are not hte "face" of Islam in America. In our country, that face is dark-skinned. Unlike the two cousin religions, Christianity and Judaism.

There are people of all colors in all religions. This does not change the fact that in America, race and religion are wound up this way. Nor does it change the fact that this "foreign minority" image of Islam is what makes it so tempting a target for bigots, and is a huge part of what makes such targeting more acceptable to the general public than targeting, say, Jews.

[superduperfarleft]

151. Thank you.

I can't tell if I'm not expressing myself adequately or if people are just being obtuse.

[Chulanowa]

167. They're being obtuse

I see people who can be completely rational anywhere else who have suddenly forgotten how when the subject changes to Muslims. It's actually kind of interesting, sort of a study in how concerted dehumanization can have its effect on even the most rational and fair-minded of people.

[alanquatermass]

180. Fuckin'A, yes! It is coded hatred for non-whites...

-- and, what's more, it runs counter to the Cultural Relativism that ought to be holding sway here at DU.

And no, "Cultural Relativism" is not a terrible term. It is a sensible approach to geo-political reality: Namely, that some cultures develop at a different rate than others.

[jancantor]

183. Please not the equivalency again...

NONE of them are better or worse than the others? Please. Get. Real. Fwiw, I'm not singling out Islam. I am saying saying they all are equally good or bad (especially on this issue) is laughable. Some subjugate women to a much greater extent than others. It's not surprising to me that religions, created BY men, tend to favor men. Are you honestly going to say the Society of Friends (Quaker) is no better or worse than Shi'ites, at least on this issue?

[alanquatermass]

186. Sorry but the Society of Friends...

-- is a branch of Christianity and as such has a GREAT DEAL to answer for.

Most recently, the murder of 500 thousand Iraqis.

[jancantor]

190. Get real

First of all, the murder of 500k Iraqis was not done in the name of Quakerism. Second of all, it was not done in the name of Christianity. Sure, many of those in charge happen to be Christian. But it wasn't done in the name of Christianity. Many also happen to be Jewish (certainly true in Bush's regime) and other religions.

This country has had no problem whatsoever bombing all sorts of folks into oblivion regardless of their religion. Dresden was almost exclusively Christian... and white I might add. Didn't prevent us from incinerating them. We came to the aid of Muslims being oppressed by Christians during the Clinton presidency. In desert storm, we came to the aid of (largely) Muslim population in Kuwait. There are a heck of a lot of "brown" Buddhists worldwide. I don't see us bombing them into oblivion. Ditto for Hindus.

To argue that Society of Friends is JUST AS BAD as Shi'ite when it comes to this issue is laughably absurd. Try walking around an area where there are a lot of Quakers in a bikini. You might get looked at. Try doing that in a Shi'ite controlled area of any # of countries. It's just a comparison that ignores all evidence in order to sound "fair". It's anything but "fair" since it lumps two very disparate views of women as one in order not to "offend".

What next? Are we going to claim that clitoral mutilation is "no better or worse" than religions that don't impose that?

[superduperfarleft]

196. You're picking at individual tree stumps while we're talking about the whole forest. n/t

[jancantor]

201. I;m giving counterexamples to the broadbrush inaccurate

statement that they are all no better/worse than others. I could give tons of counterexamples to that absurd statement. It's one of those canards that some people trot out because it makes them FEEL good, despite its complete detachment from reality.

[alanquatermass]

204. If anyone needs to "get real" around here...

-- it's YOU.

Religion in general is obscene and vile and Bill Maher did an entire movie about it (maybe you've seen it) called RELIGULOUS. Fantastic fucking movie.

What's more...

Christiane Amanpour of CNN also made a terrific documentary called GOD'S WARRIORS that compared Christianity, Judaism and Islam and found abuses going on in ALL THREE RELIGIONS!

And finally: Like it or not, jan, it is a fucking TENET of Progressivism that we often ignore "facts" (which are sometimes dubious) in favor of "what feels good" in the moment. It's called having a conscience. Have you ever met a Conservative whose policies and worldview were based entirely on facts and data and logic? I have. A lot of them. In fact, that is a good working definition of Conservatism: Sticking rigorously to empirical data.

And those kinds of people often -- in fact, almost invariably -- have no heart.

[superduperfarleft]

205. I was with you until the "heart" part.

Please don't take up my case. Thanks.

[alanquatermass]

206. But it's true, super! Fucking Conservatives...

-- 99 times out of 100, have no fucking heart.

Are there RARE exceptions to this rule? Maybe. But good luck finding one.

You're better off playing the lottery.

[superduperfarleft]

208. They all have hearts. They wouldn't be alive without one. *

Hearts pump blood. That's it.



* - excluding Dick Cheney

[alanquatermass]

213. Dear superduperliteralist --

Thank you for taking my use of the word "heart" at face value, and missing the metaphor.

Your confusion, of course, is understandable: The idea of using "heart" as a synonymn for "conscience" is still pretty new. In fact, I doubt it's been around more than 5 hundred years or been used in this particular context more than 17 billion times.

In other words, it hasn't quite caught on yet, and I will try to find something more familiar next time.

I'd have thought of this before, if I had any brains -- WHOOPS!!! LOL! (Laugh Out Loud -- although not necessarily "out loud"... oh, forget it)

Be well, Supes!!!

Best,

Alan

[alanquatermass]

209. Wintston Churchill said it best --

"If you're not a Liberal...you have no heart."

[superduperfarleft]

211. Lulz, I don't think that's how that quote goes. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

194. I'm trying to say that religion was and eventually always will be used

to control and subjugate people. None of them are INHERENTLY worse or better than the others, but over time, the most destructive versions seem to switch between faiths pretty evenly.

And as far as Quakers vs. Shiites, the one Sunni muslim friend I have works in investment banking and wears Calvin Klein. I'd rather hang out with him any day than a Quaker.

[jancantor]

202. Here's a little hint for you

Sunni is not Shi'ite. So, your statement is laughably inapplicable to what I was poiting out.

Fwiw, I would not rather hang out with any person vs. "a Quaker" because I don't prejudge people based on their religion as you just admitted to. How do you know that you would rather hang out with him than "a Quaker". Do you know all Quakers? I know some who are dipshits and some who are cool. Ditto for Orthodox Jews, Sunnis, etc.

Again, though I can't believe you don't know the difference between Sunni and Shi'ite. They are the two largest branches of Islam for pete's sake, and quite different in many respects- especially in practice.

[superduperfarleft]

203. warble garble garble

I know the two are different. It wasn't the least bit germane to my point, I was mainly just being a smart-ass. But at least it gave you an opportunity to be a condescending nag, so you're welcome.

And here's another hint, this time for you: if you take everything people say on the internet so seriously all the time, you'll use up all of your sputter at once.

edit: I've made my point already all over this thread. Feel free to read some of those subthreads. You're honestly not special enough to focus on when I'm having much more enjoyable discussions elsewhere on the thread.

[WinkyDink]

343. Is that your "defense" of Islam? Just like Republicans say, "But you do it TOO!"

[Catherina]

61. Not true. The men are subject to rules also and must cover themselves

It's considered "unlawful clothing" if men's clothes don't cover the whole body down to the ankles which they can never cover and can't be tight-fitting or see through. They can't tuck their shirts inside their trousers. Relaxed rules for men say that between the navel and the knee must never be exposed.

[shraby]

83. From male clergy from all regions.

[LeftinOH]

3. One becomes a nun by choice; one does not become a woman by choice..

and in those places where headscarves are *mandatory* it isn't about religious devotion.

[durkermaker]

10. transgenders become women by choice nt

[WinkyDink]

58. Stupid contrarian post.

[superduperfarleft]

60. Really? Please elaborate... n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

62. You need to brush up on your knowledge of transgenderism n/t

[durkermaker]

69. ..

[CLANG]

134. BULL - A transgender man-2-woman did not choose to be a woman

She may indeed later choose to change her body to reflect her self image, but she is a woman the day she is born - just in the wrong body.

[CBGLuthier]

4. Nuns willingly take vows. Muslim women are subjugated by their men.

Sheesh not even fucking close.

[proteus_lives]

43. My first thought too.

They don't force women into convents anymore.

[yurbud]

74. Even Muslim women living in the West or secular Muslim countries? Have you ever talked

to a Muslim woman wearing that stuff?

[uncommon]

149. Just what I said.

Apparently this is lost on a lot of people.

[JoePhilly]

156. Most devote religious people "are subjugated" in one way or another ...

In a sense, this is a critical element of many religions. The religious leaders create the rules, and you follow them, or not.

Rather than talk about nuns, consider the Evangelical Baptists. They have no nuns, but many variations of this part of Christianity demand that the woman be "subservient" to her husband. For decades, fundamentalist baptists claimed that American women wearing pants, and working outside the home represented a perversion of their religion.

The reality is that most religious people have been indoctrinated since birth. The threat of HELL is held over your head as a way to make you CONFORM.

[jancantor]

188. Talk about a BROAD BRUSH

SOME Muslim women are subjugated by their men to wear headscarves or even a full face/head covering. SOME, otoh choose to do so. Since it's France that did the whole ban them in public thing, let's acknowledge reality that many women who wear same in public are doing so entirely out of a matter of choice.

It is paternalistic and inaccurate to make broadbrush claims about Muslim women only adopting certain clothing standards due to men. This is hardly unique to Islam fwiw. I know some Christian men and women who are very modest in terms of their clothing. It holds for both women and men. I come from a more nudity friendly culture, so it's weird to me. But at least in their case, it's not about subjugation. This is a choice both genders (that I know in this particular case) make.

[Fumesucker]

5. I'm guessing that very few nuns would be murdered by their relatives if they left the order?

Not all Muslim "girls" are so lucky.

[JoePhilly]

166. Girls in polygamist Christian sects here in the US aren't much better off.

Every major religion has branches which subjugate women. The main difference is the PACE at which the various religions have shifted away from such practices.

Christian women have benefited greatly in the last century in this regard.

Ironically, this discussion is a great example of why the separation of church and state is so important. Countries that have instituted such a separation allow women far more rights than theocratic countries that have not. But don't be fooled.

The GOP's christo-facists would LOVE to be able to tell women where and when they can work, how much they can make, and what they can or can not do with their bodies.

[iris27]

283. And I have the same visceral reaction to the sight of the FLDS women, and the Duggard/Quiverfull

folks, as I do when I see Muslim veiling. Or as I did growing up when I heard my teacher wish aloud for menopause to come to her 10 years early, because she and her husband were Catholic, and he was very strict on the whole no-BC thing, and she "just didn't know where to find the energy for a sixth little one" if she got pregnant again.

Oppression should be fought wherever it occurs.

[WinkyDink]

345. There are NO "polygamous CHRISTIAN sects." Even the official LDS anathematizes the practice.

Man, you are tyhpical of the DU need to praise Islam and criticize Christianity.

FYI: Mormonism is not mainstream Christianity, as it teaches that human men will become gods.

[fascisthunter]

210. yes, by the extremists which exist in every religion

I think that was the point the OP was trying to make by using the cartoon.

[Fumesucker]

216. That wasn't what I took away from the OP but it was more than a trifle ambiguous, IMO..

[PBS Poll-435]

6. I don't know any Nun that was forced into her vows or service. Not to mention no honor-killings at

the Convent.

[fascisthunter]

7. wow.... the obvious I guess wasn't that obvious to me

good one!

[Toucano]

8. Are all Catholic women nuns?

Are Catholic women forced to become nuns?

That might be the difference.

[durkermaker]

9. no once ever got arrested for not becoming a nun nt

[tigereye]

11. fair point, but most nuns don't wear the old style habit. But, it is a choice.

My problem is when women are forced to wear the chador or hijab due to oppressive policies in their countries, or are whipped or arrested if they don't. If Muslim women choose to cover their hair or body as a chosen expression of faith, I have no problem with that.

[durkermaker]

25. most nuns i know have kicked the habit

it's true, i'm Catholic and I'm not making this up

[tigereye]

334. he he.

[Lyric]

12. Because nuns choose to be nuns?

Their fathers, brothers, and uncles don't force the veil upon them the moment they become pubescent?

:shrug:

[tigereye]

14. exactly...

[alittlelark]

13. The difference is that one chose to wear a habit

The other was acclimated to it from a very young age. It is culturally ingrained - they see female relatives, friends, teachers etc wearing it.

In all honesty I think they often look quite beautiful. Living in the Bay Area I see them often.

Both are to honor a religion, but only one is mandated for all women in a group.

[HopeHoops]

15. Wait - I got it - The penguin is WHITE!

She still beat the crap out of Jake and Elwood.

The simple answer is "double-standard".

[Blue_Tires]

16. this makes no sense to me

since clearly one is by choice and the other isn't...

Is there some hidden punchline here? Am I reading this too literally?

[sufrommich]

17. Are catholic women forced to become nuns? nt

[uponit7771]

21. Are most Muslim women FORCED to put on Burka? If you have proof I'd like a link TIA

[maxsolomon]

23. define "most"

it depends, doesn't it. in Turkey, where secularism was state policy, probably not.

in Afghanistan, what do you think the answer would be?

[sufrommich]

28. SOME muslim women are forced to wear the burqa. No

catholic women are forced to wear a nun's habit.

[Turborama]

236. SOME Muslim women are forced to wear the hijab.SOME Christian women are forced to wear a nun's habit

If they want to be a nun.

Same could be said about the burqa.

(The hijab is in the OP's picture)

[iris27]

300. SOME Muslim women are forced to wear the hijab...if they want to go out in public.

Yeah, that's totally the same as a habit....

[woo me with science]

30. That "most" there is a very sly qualifier.

How many is it okay to force?

[ScreamingMeemie]

73. Yes. Some of them are.

[sufrommich]

87. Really, do you have a link? nt

[ScreamingMeemie]

129. No. I had a relative.

She died a nun. Never wanted to be a nun. The "job" was chosen for her by her father.

[yurbud]

77. Are American women forced to wear bikini tops at the beach or shirts and bras on a hot day?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

107. Yes, but American men are likewise forced to cover equivalent bits of themselves.

The biggest concern about the clothing requirements of many Islamic cultures is how grossly unequal they are, which is both sexist in itself and idicative and supportive of other, even more harmful, forms of sexism and misogyny.

[yurbud]

139. here it's the opposite: if I guy walked around on the beach in a thong or even a speedo

we would think he's a bit of a perv, but if a woman wears anything that covers more than a traditional one piece, we think she is an oppressed prude.

[yurbud]

221. American men don't have to cover their breasts, but women do.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

225. Hence "equivalent" rather than "identical". N.T.

[fascisthunter]

212. I don't know about Catholics but in the Dark Ages

many have been forced into Servitude for God.

[uponit7771]

19. Those who equate this to a choice, do you have any PROOF that Muslim women are choosing their

...wear?

TIA

[Chulanowa]

64. Do you have any proof that you CHOSE to put on clothing

Until you provide me with concrete proof of your thought process, I'm going to assume you were brainwashed into it by space aliens.

[maxsolomon]

20. no good can ever come of this thread.

however: it needs a orthodox jewish woman wearing a babushka or a wig to be complete.

[leftynyc]

45. Also not forced

Therein lies the difference.

[yurbud]

121. funny you should say that. This ad was aimed at fundy Muslim, Christian, and Jewish women (PIC):

[Codeine]

22. Virtue cops don't beat nuns on the street if they let their cover slip?

Nuns make the decision to be covered as adults, while Muslim girls aren't usually given a real choice?

A nun can stop being a nun at any moment she wants, can put on shorts and a spaghetti-strap top and go for a stroll in the sun?

Nuns don't have to sneak out of their back windows to go to school?

That was a STUPID FUCKING CARTOON and proved nothing beyond the ability of the cartoonist to draw a false analogy. Also anime and manga look stupid when used as political propaganda.

[Fuzz]

24. Well, I think any religious 'uniform' is just stupid anyway.

[WinkyDink]

348. Not exactly pertinent.

[YOY]

26. As a K-12 Catholic School Kid some points here:

1. Most nuns don't dress like penguins these days. More and more forego wearing the habits altogether. I guess that's just the Church slowly creeping out of the middle ages to join the rest of us.

2. Although they are incredibly well respected in their communities, some nuns are some of the most sexually repressed head cases and some older ones are the most BITTER women I have ever met in my life.

3. Of course some nuns it is blatantly obvious that they would make GREAT priests (priestesses?) but the only way they could follow "the calling" is to become a nun.

4. Some nuns really enjoy being nuns. They didn't seem to be in the majority of the nuns who taught me...

As for the comparison, I can't say either way...you see, I've never been a Muslim but I have been raised ULTRA-Catholic.

[IDHow]

33. What do you mean by ULTRA-catholic

Please explain

[YOY]

37. Non-Opus Dei but mass at least 3 times a week.

K-12 Catholic School. All the first sacraments of the seven, Schooled by the Sisters of the Incarnate Word and by Franciscan Monks. Sexuality is a strange point of guilt for me even into agnostic adulthood and although I am more comfortable than many I still feel weird talking about sex.

Shiny leathershoes and clipon ties. Every day religion class. Rosaries and prayers every day (if not me than my mother or Nona.)

Not my CCD public school Catholic friends' childhoods, but not some Mel Gibsoneque nightmare that wanted to forget Vatican II and emulate Southern Baptists. It was hardcore but not in the creepy cultish way.

If it was creepy cultish I wouldn't be talking to most of my family right now.

[durkermaker]

40. I've always had a problem with religious celebacy

not even on repressed sexuality, but restricting reproduction on anyone, and requiring this commitment at a young age when people may not comprehend the commitment. it's the most fundamental right there is

i've never thought that was right, yet i'm still (sort of) a Catholic

[YOY]

52. Considering two of the Franciscan Brothers who taught me were gay I thought it funny in hindsight.

One was a sweetheart of a guy. Gentle and kind. Nature loving soul. Real Franciscan.

The other a complete asshole.

Both were obviously gay.

Both were men of the cloth.

Did it change their spirituality...probably not. Was it hypocritical that they could not be who they wanted to? Yes.

I hope Brother Tom (the first one) is well where-ever he is.

[woo me with science]

27. Has a nun been pushed back into a burning building because she didn't have her habit on? nt

[yurbud]

80. nope, but I wouldn't spend a second defending the Saudis or any other fundamentalist gov't

but if a Muslim woman is living in the West or a secular Muslim country, there is at least some chance she is doing it by choice.

[iris27]

289. Sure. Probably the same chance that the women living in FLDS communities

in Utah and Nevada have, right?

[defendandprotect]

29. In both cases it's male-supremacist religion forcing Medieval garb on females....

In Afghanistan, there are still wardrobe enforcers on the streets, hitting

women with sticks if they don't have hair properly covered or for other infractions

of the dress code for women.

When you try to suggest this is not oppression of women but rather their choice it's

insulting to intellect and the history of these organized patriarchal religions and

their use of violence to force these religions on populations.

Let's also recall that during the liberalizing Vatican II period of the RCC, nuns did

change their habits -- and adopted uniforms which looked more like normal street wear

for females. Short skirts, short sleeved blouses.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftynyc]

47. That's quite a charge

Care to elaborate?

[Chulanowa]

56. The assumption that every Muslim woman is oppressed

And that every Muslim man is her oppressor. The notion that a woman cannot possibly make a free and conscious choice of her own clothing, unless she is a white christian woman. The equation of Muslims worldwide with the freakshow government of Saudi Arabia. And the fact that this despicable ignorant shit is being spouted in nearly every post in a fairly deep thread and no one gives a fuck.

You'd think it were a DU thread about Mexicans or Roma, the other okay-to-bash groups around here.

[sufrommich]

66. Are you denying that there are muslim countries that

dictate a woman's choice of clothing?

[Chulanowa]

72. Not at all

Do you deny that there are Christian nations where there are death penalties for being gay? Do you deny there are nations run by black people where disease, violence, and child rape are rampant? Do you deny that there are atheist nations where little girls have been left to die of exposure for simply being girls?

Do you find these nations representative of the selected groups worldwide? Of course you don't. So why do you make this leap for Muslims?

[sufrommich]

81. What leap? Some muslim countries dictate what a woman can wear.

The crimes you've listed in other countries are equally reprehensible. You're arguing that posters here are lumping all muslims together, which is not true. The fact that there is evil being done in the world does not negate the fact that women are treated as second class citizens in some muslim countries.

[Chulanowa]

90. You know, you're telling me something that a simple glance at the thread tells me is untrue

"You're arguing that posters here are lumping all muslims together, which is not true."

Yes you are. Yes you fucking are. The thread isn't "What's the difference between a nun and a Saudi girl," it's "what's the difference between a nun and a muslim girl?" The replies are about "Muslims" - not Saudis, not Iranians, just Muslims in general. And almost each and every one of them equates Muslim WITH the Saudi treatment.

i.e., to you, and most of your fellows on this thread, All Muslims act like the Saudis.

All the CYOA in the world isn't going to change the clear message beign sent in this thread, sufrommich.

And then you have the big dumb balls enough to try to pretend I'm saying that similar crimes in other necks of the woods negates the crimes in Saudi Arabia or Iran - NO. I'm simply pointing out that you apparently have enough sense to not equate all black people with the Democratic Republic of Kongo or Somalia, but LACK the ability to apply that same sense when differentiating Muslims as a whole from the Saudis.

[sufrommich]

97. Bullshit. I've made it very clear that I'm talking about

specific LAWS in some muslim countries that make women second class citizens. Every argument you've made so far works out to "well, women's rights are important,but". Along with your tired attempt to paint the feminist movement as a club for white, middle class ladies . For someone who accuses other of using a big paintbrush, you certainly seem capable of using it often.

[Chulanowa]

173. Is English your first language?

'Cause you're saying that my position is "well, women's rights are important, but..." when in fact my position is "well, women's rights are important, AND..." I understand that the words "but" and "and" fill the same function in the English language, but they do mean opposite things. And since i know I'm not being confusing here, I have to wonder if you're aware of the different meanings of these words. If you're not, then, well, there you go, it's "and"

Women's rights are important AND they have the right to dress themselves AND follow whatever crazy religion they want AND not a damn person has any right to say boo about it.

Yours is the but position - "Women's rights are important BUT I'd prefer if the muslim ones let me insult them and determine how they are allowed to live"

And the feminist movement is exactly that. I freely admit there are plenty of feminist individuals who care about the full scope of women; but the organizations are more concerned with the glass ceiling than the rock bottom.

[leftstreet]

179. +1

Everyone overlooks the issue of class here


Thanks for all your posts! You're tireless!
:-)

[leftynyc]

100. I don't see even one person

claiming what you say they claim. Your panties are in a bunch over some fiction in your head. BTW - it's more than Saudi Arabia, women are treated like shit in plenty of other Muslim countries.

[Violet_Crumble]

108. Women are treated like shit in Christian countries too, but you NEVER say anything about them...

So what's with the single-minded fascination with Muslims? Why aren't you as outraged against the mistreatment of women in countries like Papua New Guinea?

[sufrommich]

120. There is mistreatment of women in every country. The difference

is when the mistreatment is codified into law by the government.

[Violet_Crumble]

122. There's no difference. The PNG govt condones the abuse...

Try again...

On edit: To save some time, let's cut to the chase. The only difference is that one lot is Muslim and the other are Christian...

[IDHow]

132. The difference is of course that the women in PNG are black

while the Muslims are mostly whiter Middle Easterners, so it's pro-black, anti-brown racism. Right?

[sufrommich]

136. That's a false equivalence. To support women's rights in

muslim countries does not mean non support in non muslim countries. The argument is about choice for women.

[Violet_Crumble]

142. No, it's not. Show me one thread where you've spoken out against abuse of women in PNG..

See, I posted some stuff about them a while back to see how much interest would be taken in them. They sank quickly and the usual gang who are quick to appear when there's anything about mistreatment of Muslim women failed to appear...

The argument is not about choice for women. Many of those who are arguing aren't the slightest bit interested in what the individual wants, but want to impose their own views on them and force them not to wear particular items....

[leftynyc]

133. I NEVER say anything about other women?

Are you sure about that? Or are you just lashing out because your ridiculous accusation about anyone here speaking about ALL Muslim women has fallen apart?

[Violet_Crumble]

138. Feel free to point to all those threads about mistreatment of women in Christian countries...

..if they actually exist. And no, unlike you, I don't blindly lash out at people, and try to keep my strong distaste for misogynists and Islamophboes to myself :)

[leftynyc]

144. Bully for you

Are you saying that Christianity gets free reign on this site. That nobody ever trashes the fundies. Is that really your moronic claim?

[Violet_Crumble]

154. Yep, figured I was right and you'd never spoken out against mistreatment in places like PNG...

Yr getting a bit incoherent there. What I'm saying is very clear. There is a number of people on DU who, like you in yr earlier post, who try to make out that mistreatment of women is something that only happens if a country is Muslim. If you'd taken the second or two required to do so, you'd have noticed that one person who replied to me is actually trying to justify why it's okay to exert much time and energy on 'outrage' about women's choices in Muslim countries, but to stay silent about it if the countries aren't Muslim....

[leftynyc]

160. Where did anyone in this thread or any other

on this site EVER claim mistreatment of women is only in Muslim countries? I know you're not new here so you know that simply is not true.

[Violet_Crumble]

165. Why are you asking me to show you something I never claimed?

Read what I said. I said there are those who make out. I didn't say they say it.

btw, leftynyc - As a woman, there's some countries I wouldn't ever go to as I'm appalled by their treatment of women. Top of the list is places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. While I'm never likely to go to those places, unfortunately I have been to Papua New Guinea. I was young and wasn't aware of the way women were treated there, but now I know I'd never go back there...

[leftynyc]

170. I feel the same

Not even crazy about India although I suspect I'll get there one day (btw, I'm not allowed into Saudi Arabia, I have an Israeli visa stamp on my passport). I try and catch every single posting about treatment of women everywhere, not just in Muslim countries. We do hold up half the sky.

[Violet_Crumble]

178. Sorry for misjudging you, lefty...

I took some time and went back and read some of yr posts, and think I've judged you far too harshly....

That passport thing is so lame. Apart from the childishness of it, I suspect the vast majority of people who aren't allowed into Saudi Arabia coz they've got an Israeli visa stamp wouldn't want to go there anyway.

on edit: Forgot to add possibly the worst offender against women when it comes to countries to my list, and that's Iran. I feel so much revulsion and disgust for the Iranian government for the way it defends how its going to stone a woman to death for 'adultery' and locking up her lawyers and family members for continuing to raise attention to her case in the West..

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/iran-lashes-out-at-west-over-ashtiani-stoning-outrage/story-e6frg6so-1225947667604

[leftynyc]

181. Peace

I suspect you're right - I just took a minute to think about whether I would go to Saudi Arabia but I think my big mouth would get me arrested or deported in less than a day.

[IDHow]

145. Can a gay person be Islamophobe or Christianophobe?

[Violet_Crumble]

157. Yes, of course they can.

[Chulanowa]

338. Then you're not paying attention

'Cause it's all over the damn thread.

[NuttyFluffers]

234. OMG, thank you! i thought i was alone noting the hypocritical hubris.

reminds me of 3rd and 4th gen international feminists having to literally scream at 2nd gen feminists during conferences to get them to pay attention to issues beyond their "white, middle class, western european christian tradition, woman" myopia. apparently there are gatekeepers on what is the permissible ideology...

[valerief]

32. I say, "Off with the bride's veils, too!" Let the sun shine in! On. Down. nt

[blondeatlast]

34. Choice, even though I know Muslim women who prefer to wear the hijab.

I can't say I know any who choose to wear a burqa though--I've been in the presence of women in the burqa and their husband (singular; I traveled a lot in Malaysia) and would not have been permitted to ask the question.

Ignorant cartoon.

[IDHow]

38. I'm sure some muslim women do it by choice to feel better than the "sluts" n/t

[blondeatlast]

50. This was on my college campus here in the US, not Malaysia.

I'm not entirely stupid, but if it makes you feel better to think so, go right ahead, and bless your little heart.

[IDHow]

53. All I'm saying is that the so-called "by choice" can not be clearly defined

If there's a sexist culture in a school degrading the muslim and non-muslim girls that dont wear hijab as "sluts", then of course, many muslim girls will wear the hijab and seize on this to beat their chest about how "honorable" they are compared to the "slutty ones". Is it then "by choice" they wear it?

[Warren DeMontague]

36. Personally, I think they're both a bit oppressed.

But we need to presume that consenting adults are free to choose what to wear, be it a veil or habit. If there's evidence someone is being forced to do something against their will, that's another story.

[K8-EEE]

39. The nun chooses her vows & her order

First of all not that many orders even do that anymore. But it's not like the whole female population is expected/forced to dress like OR LIVE LIKE a nun! Lame comparison IMO.

[sam kane]

41. The bikini top in France is a great analogy. nt

nt

[yurbud]

42. on the ''forced'' issue:

I asked a Muslim guy whose wife I knew if he made her wear the headscarf since she does, and he laughed and said, "You know her! Do you think I can make her do ANYTHING?"

While it might not be true of all, there is at least some chance that Muslim women wearing the headscarf choose to do so, just as if an American woman went to a French beach she might keep her bikini top on because she chooses to not because she fears her husband or father.

While the covering is required in some Muslim countries, it is not in all, and in some places women choose to wear it just as many Americans choose to be fundamentalist Christians and wear more modest clothing.

The difference between this fundamentalist swimsuit




and the burkini is pretty slight:

[hedgehog]

168. Totally off-topic, but as an older woman who weighs considerably

more than I did 40 years ago, I prefer to cover up some at the beach or pool.

[Warpy]

44. Most nuns have kicked the habit

and become remarkably more humane in the process. However, no, there is little difference in restrictive dress between the overly godly Muslims and Catholic nuns who still wear the wimple and veil.

The difference is under it. Muslim women tend to be real fashion plates. With nuns, what you see is all that's there.

In any case, I've never met a Muslim wife who is a total doormat, although I'm sure they do exist, they're human and share all their flawed characters with the west. Some just feel naked without covering their hair.

I've watched immigrants in my own neighborhood who show up in the full abaya, although I haven't seen the niqab in town. Eventually they progress to the simple hijab and a few progress to no hair covering, at all. Most wear the hijab, though.

Covering the face is incompatible with a modern western society. However, it's crazy to tell any woman what else she can wear.

[durkermaker]

48. all veils should be replaced with visors

Black visors with a 'C' - Catholic nun

Purple visors with an 'M' - muslim

White visors with a 'B' - bride

it would resolve the issue, yet retain identity

plus, they're sporty and practical

[jberryhill]

49. Bottom Line - We Need Laws To Dictate What Women Can And Cannot Wear

Some here have pointed out that Muslim men are forcing women to wear things.

We cannot allow that to happen, and we need to re-assert the power of men in government to control what women wear.

We can't have these freelancers doing it.

Obviously, without appropriate laws, the wrong people will be in control of what women wear.

[yurbud]

92. I agree--down with pants and underwear!

[jberryhill]

125. And up with skirts and dresses! /nt

[yurbud]

135. cartwheels would do the trick

[Nuclear Unicorn]

51. What if my husband insists that I dress like a Catholic school girl.

What does that mean?

[Iggo]

54. It means he's been reading my blog.

:P

[blondeatlast]

57. It means that he needs to get more creative--and you need to "insist" he do so.

And a fun time will be had by all. ;)

[AnArmyVeteran]

63. I believe religion is the last thing in his mind :)

[RadiationTherapy]

70. How about calling it a woman in a skimpy outfit?

The "catholic school girl" is disturbing on account of the "school girl" part. I hate that creepy pseudo-pedophile stuff.

[yurbud]

82. in public or in private?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

89. yes

:P

[yurbud]

127. better you than someone else--or a real Catholic schoolgirl

[BoneDaddy]

93. When a nun refuses to wear her costume

she is not found dead at the hands of her relatives.

[Liquorice]

95. Gross, a cartoon that tries to make some sort of weird argument in support of religious

male dominance. How weird to see it here! The reason nuns wear that get-up is because they simply never changed their style of clothing from medieval times when all women wore that style of clothing. What you're seeing with the nuns is a remnant of what women in early Christianity wore. One day the Muslim women will also be freed from their head coverings and drapery. They just haven't progressed beyond that level yet.

The argument that because some nuns wear a habit, it is fine that Muslim women are forced to wear those loony clothes is plain old stupidity.

[Violet_Crumble]

99. None of the Muslim women I know who wear a hijab are forced to...

And if a woman wants to wear one, anyone who's going to try to force her not to wear one is as much of a woman-hater as those who'd force a woman to wear something she doesn't want to...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

109. How do you think their families and friends would respond if they stopped?

I don't imagine most of them are having knives held to their throats, but if they wouldn't be subjected to massive social pressure if they stopped then they are a very long way from a representative sample.

[Violet_Crumble]

115. I wouldn't think they'd care. They've got more important things to worry about...

They move in the same social circles as me, btw....

[sufrommich]

124. Your country has no laws in regards to the hajab. Hence,

they can't be forced to.

[Violet_Crumble]

128. Not many countries do...

Women can very much be forced to do things they don't want to if a law doesn't exist. I've heard of plenty of men who force women to do things they don't want to do...

btw, I think yr meaning to refer to a hijab, which is a scarf that covers the hair...

[Liquorice]

214. Only someone who was indoctrnated by religious dogma would consider

wearing something like that. So the "choice" to wear material covering the head and/or face is not made in a vacuum. It's not like these women woke up one day and decided to start dressing that way on a whim.

[Violet_Crumble]

217. Nope, my friends aren't indoctrinated by religious dogma....

Just because they offend yr sensibitities by wearing a head-scarf, that doesn't mean you get to sit there and pretend they get forced or coerced into it. People who act as though women are stupid creatures who don't have real choice if they're doing something the person approves of are right down there with those who'd force women to dress a certain way or those who'd force women not to dress how they want. They're all scumbags...

[Liquorice]

224. Oh, they're not wearing it for religious reasons? Come on, let's at least be honest. Look, there

have been plenty of women throughout history who have fought against women being equal. There were and always will be women who think they are inferior to men and who enjoy the status quo. There were women who created organizations against women's suffrage, women who believe men are the head of the household and they should be obedient, and on and on. These women have argued strenuously that it is God's will to be obedient to men, or that it is their choice to live a life of subservience to men. They did (and do) so because they were indoctrinated into religious dogma that told them they were less than a man. No little girl who has not been exposed to such poison would ever come to the conclusion that she is less than a boy on her own. That is an attitude that is learned through religious teaching. IMO, the head/face coverings for "modesty" and religious reasons are no different than those other beliefs I mentioned. That is my opinion, and I am not a scumbag for believing that way.

You want people to think it's just fine for women to be poisoned into believing it is pious or modest or whatever to walk around with their heads/faces covered, but not everyone feels that way. I don't believe that women have to cover their faces or heads to be "good," and I have a right to that belief. I believe that when women do cover themselves in such a way, it is a sign of male oppression. Maybe you need to look inside yourself for the intolerance you display of other people's opinions.

[Violet_Crumble]

227. I said they're not indoctrinated by religious dogma. They wear it for cultural reasons...

I know there's plenty of women who fight against women being equal. Those who think they should be able to dictate what other women wear are high on that list, including those who get all upset about a woman wearing a head-scarf. Wearing something convering our heads doesn't make us less equal than men at all. That's really a ridiculous attitude to have, imo...

Women from quite a few religions wear scarfs. Each to their own. What do you want to do? Bail women up in the street who are wearing anything covering their hair and screech at them demands to know what religion is 'forcing' them to wear it? I'm not obsessed with how other women dress, and don't give a shit what reasons a woman is wearing anything for. Maybe you could eventually reach that point as well?


You want people to think it's just fine for women to be poisoned into believing it is pious or modest or whatever to walk around with their heads/faces covered, but not everyone feels that way.

Huh? What a load of crap! So now yr just going to start pretending you know what I want. Great. I can see how yr the sort of person who disregards what other women actually want and just makes all the decisions for them. As I've said before, those who support dictating what women can't wear are every bit as much a woman-hating scumbag as those who think they should dictate what they can wear. Hopefully one day those sort of creatures will come to realise that women are more than capable of deciding for themselves what they wear and they shouldn't have to justify how they dress to anyone...

[Liquorice]

228. I think you have serious and probably longstanding issues. I feel sorry for you. :-( nt

[Violet_Crumble]

229. Put down the mirror. I'm not the one demanding other women dress how I want them to...

Nor am I the one seeming to think that I can impose my restrictive dress code on women if she's wearing anything for religious or cultural reasons. I'm an Atheist and I live by the idea that if I want religious folk not to push their views onto me, I'm not going to push my views onto them. Anything else is hypocrisy...

[Liquorice]

231. I just feel that something is wrong because you keep saying that I am writing

things that I'm not writing. I obviously don't know what is wrong because I don't know you, but something isn't right.

To be clear, my opinion is that some fundamentalist religious beliefs have created the poisonous idea that women are inferior to men. That false belief is mirrored in various ways--one way being the belief that women have to cover their heads and/or faces to be considered good or modest. And I believe that women who are poisoned by those ideas have been indoctrinated by male-dominated relgious dogma.

Good luck and no hard feelings.

[Violet_Crumble]

232. Self-delete. Post hiccup...

[Violet_Crumble]

233. Huh? Yr the one who's told me I want something I never said I did...

I haven't said that yr writing anything that yr not. I'm not sure where all that's coming from...

To be clear, my opinion is that some fundamentalist religious beliefs have created the poisonous idea that women are inferior to men.

So far, so good...

That false belief is mirrored in various ways--one way being the belief that women have to cover their heads and/or faces to be considered good or modest.

My friends who wear hijabs are what can only be described as moderate Muslims. Mainstream Islam isn't fundamentalism. Nor is Orthodox Judaism, another religion where women cover their hair. Also, it's not just women who dress modestly. Men also do...

And I believe that women who are poisoned by those ideas have been indoctrinated by male-dominated relgious dogma.

Yes, clearly women aren't capable of making their own decisions and have to have been brainwashed! After all, anti-choicers have trodden out that tired argument many times in the past when they insist that women have been brainwashed into making the 'choice' to have an abortion and that's why abortion should be banned. I think you've got to realise that just because a woman is religious and chooses to dress in a way you disapprove of, that doesn't mean she's brainwashed etc etc.

Good luck and no hard feelings.

Same to you...

[Violet_Crumble]

230. Yr the first person I've encountered who objects to women wearing a scarf on their heads...

'Something like that' is pretty much exactly the same thing as my granny was wearing in photos from back in the 1950's. Me, I've covered my hair similarly more than once or twice before, and I'm an Atheist. I suspect yr confusing a hijab with a burqa....

[JackRiddler]

98. Your throwaway sexist joke in the first line damages a serious point.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

102. Easy: one was not subjected to pressure from birth. Please think before posting.

I have no objection to women choosing to cover their heads; I do object strongly to them being pressured to cover themselves by a society that does not put similar pressure on men.

The line of argument set forwards in the OP is either a misunderstanding - I suspect - a deliberate misrepresentation of the concerns about sexism in Islamic societies.

[uppityperson]

119. Exactly. 1 was not subjected to pressure from birth.

"I have no objection to women choosing to cover their heads; I do object strongly to them being pressured to cover themselves by a society that does not put similar pressure on men."

[yurbud]

174. and our norms of dressing aren't reinforced with cultural pressure?

[uppityperson]

193. Not sure what that question has to do with ian's comment. Enlighten me?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

207. Let me repeat what I just said, with the relevant passage emphasised.

"I have no objection to women choosing to cover their heads; I do object strongly to them being pressured to cover themselves by a society that does not put similar pressure on men."

[Fumesucker]

104. But if a Frenchwoman comes to the US she *must* wear the bikini top on the beach..

Out of fear of our law enforcement.

It works both ways..

[yurbud]

159. sharia law is already here!

[Fumesucker]

171. It was your example, not mine

I was just turning it around to show the stupidity of your example..

[NNN0LHI]

110. They changed it but when I was young all women were required to wear veils inside a Catholic church

I can remember my mother wearing them.

Don

[sufrommich]

113. That was the dictates of the church, not the government. nt

[superduperfarleft]

123. And if the church was the government, like in many ME countries? n/t

[sufrommich]

126. Well, that's kind of my point. nt

[cynatnite]

112. The only equal thing about the two are the ignorant religions they follow. n/t

[Lucian]

140. No difference, religion wise...but...

I don't think men make the nuns cover up, whereas the men in Islamic societies DO.

So yes, Muslim women are oppressed.

[uncommon]

143. Because nuns choose to be nuns. Muslim girls usually don't choose to be Muslim girls.

[yurbud]

146. If they live in Western or secular Arab countries, is it possibly they choose their degree of

modesty?

[darkstar3]

242. Sure! Just like all Western women really like makeup. n/t

[uncommon]

260. This is a very good point --

as a Western woman with considerable freedoms, I still often feel compelled to engage in certain cultural beauty practices that are more or less mandated by the society in which I live.

I prefer not to. We all capitulate to the patriarchy now and then.

[darkstar3]

301. I'm so glad someone else decided to use the P word.

Thank you. You won't get much traction, but thank you anyway.

[uncommon]

333. Oh I know.

Actual feminists are anathema on DU.

[uncommon]

257. If they aren't "girls" then sure.

If we were talking about adult Muslim women, then sure, there could be some degree of choice there - then again, this depends on the immediate environment the woman is living in. Even in a Western country, she could be subjugated by her family and/or husband.

A "girl" has little freedom to choose unless she is coming from a secular family and choosing this for herself. In that case, fine. But this is very rare.

[JCMach1]

185. IF the Muslim girls marries Jesus, then we'll talk

:sarcasm:

[BlueCheese]

189. The cartoon is wrong.

If the cartoon is referring to American women, I don't think most people think that a headscarf in the US is a sign of oppression.

If the cartoon is referring to women in certain Middle Eastern countries, I hope nobody really thinks that women are as free in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan as they are in the United States. The headscarf is relatively mild, but the full-body coverings in Iran and Taliban-controlled Afghanistan really do reek of oppression.

I know we're supposed to be understanding of other cultures, but let's not go overboard. Generally, women in the US and other modern democracies are much more free than in most traditional cultures. There are good reasons that foot-binding, suttee, and honor-killings aren't tolerated here.

[krabigirl]

195. Honestly, people just need to mind their own business.

[MisterP]

197. many "New Atheists" like Hitch would say there's no difference, and they must be saved from

clothing in the name of liberalism, just like we have to invade Muslims abroad and humiliate them at home in the name of liberal freedemocrasecularism

of course, it's a very 19th-century English Defence League-friendly, North Oxford, Anglo-Franco-Dutch "liberalism" that hates Islam, Catholicism, and Communism, and can't really tell between the three

[Old Troop]

215. This is apples and oranges on several levels.

Last time I checked, becoming a nun was voluntary. Second, the habit is not required by most orders these days. Third, you can leave the sisterhood without being killed by clergy or family members.

[Violet_Crumble]

218. Yeah, because any woman who wears a hijab will be killed if she leaves Islam!

Where do people come up with complete crap like that? Many women turn their backs on their religion and aren't killed...

[darkstar3]

239. Tell that to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

244. What a stupid response...

The poster I was responding to was making out that being killed for leaving Islam is something that happens to women who wear hijab. Why would you respond defending someone trying to peddle such ridiculous crap?

[darkstar3]

247. People DO get killed for leaving Islam.

It happens more often than you hear about, and it happens no matter what they are wearing. The point of the poster you are attacking is that if women feel oppressed by the hijab and so many other Islamic customs, they risk death at the hands of their own families if they leave the faith. Do you deny this? Do you dare make light of it?

[Violet_Crumble]

250. It is NOT commonplace at all, and it happens in all religions...

Oh, and I'm not attacking anyone. It's called disagreeing with a comment that is revolting and untrue.

[darkstar3]

253. Christians kill other Christians for leaving the faith?

Let's be clear: Your equivocation argument is accusing Christians of killing other Christians simply for abandoning Christianity. Does that happen?

[Violet_Crumble]

258. Of course they do. Much as you'd like to ignore it, it must happen in most religions...

I know it spoils yr fantasy where it's only Muslims who do nasty shit, but anyone who tries to claim that no Christians have ever killed someone for trying to leave their religion is in denial and delusional...

[darkstar3]

263. Prove it.

Show me a news story. I'll wait.

[Name removed]

272. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turborama]

240. Where do they come up with crap like that? Years of drip drip drip from Faux et al feeding into.....

....America's consciousness.

Sad but true, as can be witnessed throughout this thread.

:hi:

[darkstar3]

243. You're telling me Muslims don't issue fatwas against apostates? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

245. That's not what the poster I was replying to was arguing...

Try and stay focused on what the discussions about...

[darkstar3]

248. That is what they were talking about.

Try reading, and also try understanding that just because someone's point is devastating to your case, that doesn't mean you can simply ignore it.

[Violet_Crumble]

252. No, it's not. Go back and read the post I was replying to...

They were making out that if yr a woman who wears a hijab, yr going to get killed for leaving yr religion. You come along and say that death is a penalty for leaving the religion. Two completely different things, and yrs is as inane as using quotes from the Bible to claim that Christians must do this or that if they're Christian...

I'm not the one trying to make any case, btw. I'm just pointing out that the initital comment was both untrue and ugly. Again, you should pay more attention to what's going on around you.

[darkstar3]

259. Read the original start of this subthread more carefully.

In fact, think more carefully about what you are writing yourself.

A hijab is what? An Islamic garment.
A woman wearing a hijab who left her religion would be leaving what religion? Islam.
People who leave Islam are often murdered for this action.
That was the point of the poster above, and that is the point you wish to avoid. The hijab is a bad comparison to a habit because can leave her faith and her habit behind without fear of being killed by her own brother.

[Violet_Crumble]

270. I've read it, which is why I pointed out you were trying to argue something different...

Women who wear hijabs are not OFTEN murdered for leaving their religion. Why don't you take yr Pamela Geller routine somewhere where people will be more amenable to it? I would like to think DU's a better place than that...

[darkstar3]

285. You should read it again.

Perhaps Old Troop will return and expound on the part of his post which you seem to have taken so strangely. Meanwhile, I didn't know the murder of women for escaping oppressive societies had to become a fucking PANDEMIC before you gave two shits about it.

And here I thought people on DU cared about rights...

[Violet_Crumble]

292. I read it several times already. It doesn't stop being ugly and wrong the more I read it...

And I'm sure you think babbling away about a 'fucking pandemic' makes you look very superior and intelligent or something. Pleaes don't mistake my speaking out against comments that are trying to portray something as common-place as meaning I don't give a shit about the small number who are murdered. If you do it again, I'll have to assume yr doing it deliberately....

[Name removed]

297. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

302. No, I don't, but don't let that stop you inventing crap n/t

[darkstar3]

303. It's not nice when people invent crap about you, is it?

Remember that should we meet again.

[Violet_Crumble]

306. Then don't do it....

I sincerely hoping I don't encounter you again, as yr revolting attitudes about Muslims is something I think brings DU down a notch or two...

[Turborama]

249. Only Islamic scholars can issue fatwas.Rarely Islamic scholars have issued fatwas on apostates

Your "Muslims issue fatwas against apostates" is a prime example of the ignorance we're talking about.

A fatwā - Arabic: فتوى‎ plural fatāwā Arabic فتاوى‎ - in the Islamic faith is a religious opinion concerning Islamic law issued by an Islamic scholar. In Sunni Islam any fatwā is non-binding, whereas in Shia Islam it could be considered by an individual as binding, depending on his or her relation to the scholar. The person who issues a fatwā is called, in that respect, a Mufti, i.e. an issuer of fatwa. This is not necessarily a formal position since most Muslims argue that anyone trained in Islamic law may give an opinion -fatwā - on its teachings. If a fatwā does not break new ground, then it is simply called a ruling.<1>

An analogy might be made to the issue of legal opinions from courts in common-law systems. Fatwās generally contain the details of the scholar's reasoning, typically in response to a particular case, and are considered binding precedent by those Muslims who have bound themselves to that scholar, including future Muftis; mere rulings can be compared to memorandum opinions. The primary difference between common-law opinions and fatwās, however, is that fatwās are not universally binding; as the Sharia is not universally consistent and Islam is very non-hierarchical in structure, fatwās do not carry the sort of weight that secular common-law opinions do.

Popular misconceptions

Some people use the term to mean an Islamic death sentence imposed upon a person.<2> This is indeed one possibility, but is a rare use for a fatwā, and the equation of fatwā with capital punishment is considered offensive by many Muslims. The term's correct definition is broader, since a fatwā may concern any aspect of individual life, social norms, religion, war, peace, Jihad and politics. Most Islamic opinions—millions of fatwā have been issued over the 1,400 year history of Islam—likely deal with issues faced by Muslims in their daily life, such as the customs of marriage, financial affairs, female circumcision or moral questions. They are issued in response to questions by ordinary Muslims, and go unnoticed by those not concerned, while the much smaller number of fatwā issued on controversial subjects such as war, Jihad, Dhmimmis, particularly by extremist preachers, sometimes get wide coverage in the media because of their political content (see examples below).

A fatwā is not automatically part of Islamic teachings. While the person issuing it may intend to represent the teachings of Islam accurately, this does not mean that that person's interpretation will gain universal acceptance. There are many divergent schools within the religion, and even people within the same current of thought will sometimes rule differently on a difficult issue. This means that there are numerous contradictory fatwā, prescribing or proscribing a certain behavior. This puts the burden of choice on the individual Muslim, who, in case of conflict, will be forced to decide whose opinion is more likely to be correct. On the other hand, some fatwās are considered absolute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatw%C4%81

[darkstar3]

251. Try this on for ignorance:

Why don't you tell me about honor killings.

Yes, I happen to know the proper terms, and my POINT in using them was to show the high profile nature of some of these cases. People hear about fatwas on the news. People know about Salman Rushdie. These are the ones you ACTUALLY hear about, and people here are trying to deny that such things happen.

Be very careful when you throw around accusations of ignorance, lest you show your own.

[Name removed]

254. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[darkstar3]

261. Obviously, I know more than you.

Which isn't surprising, considering that I have researched the subject from both a religious and cultural standpoint.

[Violet_Crumble]

264. Spoken exactly like the guy in the Onion article would have said it n/t

[darkstar3]

268. Your sophomoric attempts at ad hom bore me. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

326. I didn't write the article. It's from the Onion...

I'll post it again without my own comment coz it really is funny reading. I've posted in many times before at DU and most people find it funny and the mods have never deleted it before...

Man Already Knows Everything He Needs To Know About Muslims

SALINA, KS—Local man Scott Gentries told reporters Wednesday that his deliberately limited grasp of Islamic history and culture was still more than sufficient to shape his views of the entire Muslim world.

Gentries, 48, said he had absolutely no interest in exposing himself to further knowledge of Islamic civilization or putting his sweeping opinions into a broader context of any kind, and confirmed he was "perfectly happy" to make a handful of emotionally charged words the basis of his mistrust toward all members of the world's second-largest religion.

"I learned all that really matters about the Muslim faith on 9/11," Gentries said in reference to the terrorist attacks on the United States undertaken by 19 of Islam's approximately 1.6 billion practitioners. "What more do I need to know to stigmatize Muslims everywhere as inherently violent radicals?"

"And now they want to build a mosque at Ground Zero," continued Gentries, eliminating any distinction between the 9/11 hijackers and Muslims in general. "No, I won't examine the accuracy of that statement, but yes, I will allow myself to be outraged by it and use it as evidence of these people's universal callousness toward Americans who lost loved ones when the Twin Towers fell."

"Even though I am not one of those people," he added.

When told that the proposed "Ground Zero mosque" is actually a community center two blocks north of the site that would include, in addition to a public prayer space, a 500-seat auditorium, a restaurant, and athletic facilities, Gentries shook his head and said, "I know all I'm going to let myself know."

Gentries explained that it "didn't take long" to find out as much about the tenets of Islam as he needed to. He said he knew Muslims stoned their women for committing adultery, trained for terrorist attacks at fundamentalist madrassas, and believed in jihad, which Gentries described as the thing they used to justify killing infidels.

"All Muslims are at war with America, and I will resist any attempt to challenge that assertion with potentially illuminating facts," said Gentries, who threatened to leave the room if presented with the number of Muslims who live peacefully in the United States, serve in the country's armed forces, or were victims themselves of the 9/11 attacks. "Period."

"If you don't believe me, wait until they put your wife in a burka," Gentries continued in reference to the face-and-body-covering worn by a small minority of Muslim women and banned in the universities of Turkey, Tunisia, and Syria. "Or worse, a rape camp. That's right: For reasons I am content being totally unable to articulate, I am choosing to associate Muslims with rape camps."

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

[Turborama]

269. No, what you have been posting is exactly the same Islamophobic shit coming out of Faux 24/7

Maybe that's your source though.

[darkstar3]

277. Call me whatever you like.

I have been called an islamophobe, a christophobe (which someone made up), and many other things in the past simply because I do not suffer fools gladly. The simple fact of the matter is that, regardless of the sect, much of the religiously motivated behavior we see in the world today is foolish, and I have no problem whatsoever in calling it such.

The only Faux I see is clips from TDS and CR. I see what you did there, though, and let me assure you that I am in fact a liberal-minded individual, but frankly I believe that "freedom" and progression of human values is not to be found in most of today's religious structures. (I'd say all, but I haven't researched them all thoroughly yet. I am one man, and there are thousands.)

[Violet_Crumble]

279. You've been labelled an Islamophobe before? Colour me shocked and surprised!!!!

NOT!

[Name removed]

281. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

287. I do. You really don't like having the piss taken out of you, do you? n/t

[darkstar3]

291. I'll let you know when it happens. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

296. It's already happened, but you just let me know if that makes you happy n/t

[darkstar3]

298. You're funny when you're wrong. n/t

[Name removed]

304. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turborama]

309. You are. I have a lot of Aussie friends who are hilarious when they take the piss

Out of people, whether they're bigots or not. I think Aussies have it down to a fine art. Or is that a broad-brush/stereotypical statement in itself? :shrug:

:rofl:

[Violet_Crumble]

316. Thanks, Turbo. That's one broad-brush statement I can live with...

I'm a bit off my game right now though coz I'm recovering from some major surgery and feeling sore and sorry for myself. Check yr inbox in a little while, okay?

[Violet_Crumble]

327. I wasn't wrong. It definately already happened. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

325. No, you don't...

You don't know the first thing about what I do or don't know. Where have you been doing yr research? Atlas Shrugs?

[Turborama]

265. In fact, he is not a fictitious character. I saw one on a video filmed by TPM at BecKKK's rally

He's on here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuDs7uLx2XU

[Name removed]

274. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turborama]

319. Apologies, that was the wrong video. Just found the right one...

In New Left Media's video from the same rally to uphold ignorance. Watch from 9 minutes 30 seconds in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht8PmEjxUfg

[Turborama]

256. Honor killings are carried out by SOME Hindus and SOME Muslims

That has nothing to do with religion. It's a cultural/family "pride" thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

I am very careful when I call out ignorance and make sure to make a point of exposing it when I see it.

[Violet_Crumble]

262. Turborama, I've just read a post from that DUer opposing the 9/11 'mosque'

I think this explains their behaviour in this sub-thread...

'Those towers were knocked down by Muslims, in the name of their God and in what they saw as a defense of their land, their culture, and their faith. The crushing of the infidel. The halting and wounding of the Great Satan. These motivations and many more were purely religious in nature, and now followers of that same religion want to build a house of worship close enough for people to hear their call to prayer?

Lemme see if I can find an appropriate analogy...

It would be like you punching your neighbor in the face today, and then coming over tomorrow to raid his fridge and watch his cable.

That's why it's offensive.'

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=263&topic_id=41895&mesg_id=41944

Yep, nothing like holding all Muslims responsible for what a few did....

[darkstar3]

266. Show me one incorrect statement in that post.

The perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks admitted to all of that themselves. And if you had bothered to read that whole thread rather than looking for character assassination ammo, you'd know that my point in said thread about trying to understand the feelings of the New Yorkers who opposed the building of that Mosque.

[Violet_Crumble]

271. You equated all Muslims with the terrorists who carried out the attacks...

I read the entire thread and yr attitudes towards Muslims are revolting.

[darkstar3]

275. And for someone who debates

at the level of a middle-schooler I'm not surprised that you see it that way. But you see, there is more meaning to what we write than the simple words you see on the page. Some teachers call this "reading between the lines".

[Violet_Crumble]

278. I'm always embarressed for anti-semites and Islamophobes when they try to act superior..

...and then several microseconds later all my sympathy vanishes when I remember the ugly crap they try to peddle their suppsedly intelligent and superior 'thoughts'...

You clearly have some major issues when it comes to Muslims. Did one of them cut you off in traffic to cause such dislike? ;)

[Name removed]

280. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turborama]

286. Yes, you obviously do. Your comments on this thread are testament to that.

Do you even know what a "concern troll" is?

[darkstar3]

293. I do know what a concern troll is,

and if you knew me at all you'd know that Islam isn't a sole target of my ire.

Now, what would you call someone who posts a defensive statement purely out of concern that someone's feelings might be hurt by a little truth in language?

[Turborama]

311. You obviously don't

Otherwise you wouldn't accuse Violet_Crumble of being one.

[Name removed]

313. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turborama]

314. Ooh, you got me with your witty ad hom!

Time for you to get some sleep, your failboat has landed...

[darkstar3]

315. Oh my,

whatever shall I do? Your superior use of copy and paste has eviscerated my wit and left me helpless in a sea of malaise!

Or, you know, not.

[Turborama]

318. What I suggest you do is some more reading

And get some sleep. Not necessarily in that order.

[Name removed]

295. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

320. You clearly do have some major issues with Muslims...

And fyi, people who are opposed to Islamophobia aren't 'concern trolls'...

[Turborama]

276. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

I'm sure there are multitudes of posts just like that, if I could be bothered to look for them.


What amazes me is that it seems perfectly fine to come out with bigoted broad brush statements and accusations against Muslims whereas the anti-Semitism grenade is thrown whenever anyone discusses Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

284. I totally agree with you about that last line...

It's been one of the things that annoys me most about DU for a long time...


This thread's been a learning experience for me. I jumped to conclusions with one DUer earlier and only realised when I went and looked at older posts of hers that her and I were actually in agreement and coming from a similar direction. There was another who just was imo a bit confused when it came to feminism and religion, but this poster now is the only one I've engaged in where it's clear the agenda is a very ugly one...

[darkstar3]

273. 1. Never trust Wikipedia

2. In that culture, religion is inseparable from such decisions.
3. Don't try to dismiss the concept simply because not every single member of the faith follows it. A good number do, and will travel internationally to slay members of their own family when they feel that the need arises. Simply google the term "honor killing news" and read the reports. It's not some random, Waco-style nuttery, it happens all over the world and the incidents are on the rise.

Texas
Canada
France
Great Britain
Just to name a few countries where such things have happened more than once.

[Turborama]

282. My, isn't that convenient. Hindus & Muslims carry out honor killings. Try this Time article, then.

Why Are Hindu Honor Killings Rising in India?

By Madhur Singh / New Delhi Tuesday, May. 25, 201

For three weeks now, a morbid murder story has been playing out in the Indian media. Nirupama Pathak, 22, a New Delhi–based journalist, was allegedly murdered by her own mother. Her crime? She had wanted to marry a fellow journalist who belongs to a lower caste — and she was pregnant. On a trip home to make a final effort to convince her family, Nirupama texted her boyfriend that she was being held captive, locked up in a bathroom. On April 29, she was found dead. The family claimed Nirupama had killed herself, and lodged a case against her boyfriend for rape and abetting suicide. But when the postmortem results revealed Nirupama had been asphyxiated, the police arrested her mother, Sudha Pathak.

The case is now headed to court, which will disentangle the web of allegations and counterallegations. Meanwhile, it has thrust the issue of honor killings to the center of public debate. Though Western readers associate the term more with Taliban-ruled Afghanistan than with 21st century India, honor killings are shockingly frequent in villages in the northern and northwestern parts of the country, where those daring to cross the barriers of caste are made to pay with their lives. Mostly, these cases are confined to the inside pages of newspapers, but the Nirupama case — in urban, educated, middle-class India — has hit the front pages.
(http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1888592,00.html">See the tempestuous Nehru dynasty of India.)

Activists say dozens of people, both women and men, are killed for "honor" every year, falling victim to the deeply entrenched caste system, which dictates an individual's social standing based on the caste they are born into. The majority of these killings take place in the agrarian states of Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and Rajasthan, where land ownership and caste go hand in hand and an honor culture thrives by maintaining caste and gender hierarchies. "The upper castes fiercely guard their hold over land and power in the community," says Ranbir Singh, a Haryana-based sociologist currently a consultant with the Haryana Institute of Rural Development. "They are able to mobilize young, educated but unemployed, mostly unmarried men, who are all fired up to shore up their self-esteem."
(http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,904153,00.html">From TIME's archives: India and the politics of prejudice.)

Perceived caste transgressions are severely punished. In a recent case in a Haryana village, an 18-year-old Dalit girl and her father were allegedly burned alive by upper-caste Jat men following an argument over a dog. Women, since they have property rights, are a threat if not kept under a vicelike grip. It is no surprise that Haryana, one of India's wealthiest states with a largely farm-based economy, has the highest rate of selectively aborting female fetuses, a practice that has skewed the demographics so much that there are only 861 women for 1,000 men. Young men are forced to purchase brides from other states. The statistics on honor killings are also the worst there: groups called khaps run kangaroo courts that routinely issue fatwa-like orders for the execution of those who have offended caste boundaries.


Full article: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1991195,00.html

It IS a cultural/family thing, whether you want it to be a purely Muslim thing or not.

[darkstar3]

288. Check yourself, because I'm not claiming it's purely a Muslim thing,

I'm trying to tell you that religion, whether Hindi or Muslim, plays as big a role in the phenomenon as culture does. The two are inseparable in that part of the world and have been for a very long time. Only in the 20th century have some of them managed to start separating the two, and the backlash against the younger generation for doing so has been harsh.

You may wish to ignore the religious component of these killings because it makes it convenient for you to dismiss the unequal and shitty nature of the comparison made in the OP, but ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

[Turborama]

305. This subthread is about Muslims & Islam & you throw up the "what about honor killings?" red herring

Muslims and Hindus carry out honor killings. Therefore, it is not a religious thing, it is a cultural/family thing. Also, honor killings have nothing to do with the OP, no matter how "unequal and shitty" you think the nature of the comparison is.

[Name removed]

307. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

310. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turborama]

312. Can you read? Glad you gave up trying to defend your ignorance.

It was fun while it lasted, though.

[Violet_Crumble]

323. What Turbo said made sense and was logical...

I'm going to repost this because it's important. Things like honour killings and FGM are cultural things, not religious. They're cultural because religions don't dictate them happening, and they occur based on the cultural background and origin of those who carry them out. Not everything under the sun can be blamed on religion...

[Violet_Crumble]

324. How many is 'a good number'?

Sorry, but the vast majority of Muslims are moderate and the behaviours you describe are that of a small minority.

[Turborama]

294. BTW Thanks a lot for your frank and openly displayed ignorance

Even if you don't learn anything from our exchange, hopefully there'll be a lot of other readers of it who do.

[darkstar3]

299. Oh, there's definitely ignorance on display in this thread.

The real issue, though, is how do the ignorant learn the error of their ways, and how long will it take them to realize that "concern" is not the same as progressivism?

[Violet_Crumble]

308. Yes, and you've given us many posts of it...

You just repeat those questions to yrself as you drift off to sleep tonight and if you wake up still none the wiser, I suggest you contact one of the admin and ask them why it is that more than a few DUers are objecting to yr stance on Muslims...

[Turborama]

317. Well, hopefully you will have learnt the error of your ways by reading some of the material

I have posted for you to learn from. Failing that, try asking some more questions and I'd be happy to school you some more...

[Poll_Blind]

238. What a fucking insane statement to make. n/t

PB

[fascisthunter]

223. Very Good Thought Provoking Thread

[slackmaster]

226. Who cares? Neither one of them is likely to put out.

:nuke:

Seriously, when I was an undergraduate I invited a very hot Iranian woman who was in a psych class with me, to a party at my beautiful rented home in Del Mar, California.

She freaked out and left early because a bunch of gay men were preparing deep-fried wontons stuffed with pork, and drinking a lot of liquor.

Oh well.

[darkstar3]

235. Both are oppressed, and not just by their clothing.

It's sad that so many of them defend that oppression.

[WinkyDink]

346. How are nuns oppressed?

[flvegan]

237. This thread is AWESOME!!!

[SidDithers]

241. K&R...nt

Sid

[krispos42]

246. Most Muslim women aren't clergy n/t

[iris27]

255. Because some Muslims would still consider the nun to be brazenly uncovered, and

and debate hotly with one another over just exactly how much fabric Muslim women are expected to sweat underneath in order to be considered acceptable to their families and communities.

I've never heard a nun say anything like http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080303233135AAfEvWI">these Muslim women talking about niqab (face-veil):

"I tried it on b4 & can see how uncomfortable it can be trying to breathe, but on the bright side, probably hard to catch germs!"

or

"Personally I hate it.. I cant breathe... I feel like im having an asthma attack... My husband doesnt mind that I dont.. I also dont wear all black.. I like the type of silk or cotton scarves that have a whisp of color.. I also like maroon, beige, or blue abayas.. (so, Im a rebel). lol"

Exhibit A is the outward visual marker of a deliberately chosen status, achieved after years of study. Exhibit B is a socially-enforced norm of modesty, experienced as onerous and/or physically uncomfortable by at least some of those from whom it's expected.

[Jamastiene]

290. To me, it still boils down to choice.

If it is a woman's choice (regardless of what religion they follow) to wear certain clothing, then so be it. No biggie.

If it is forced, THEN I have a problem with it. In some areas of the world, it is forced.

[Warren DeMontague]

321. One thing no one has mentioned: NEITHER of those women has a nose.

GOOD GOD, MAN, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THEIR NOSES?!?!?! :o

[wickerwoman]

322. Does the nun get acid splashed in her face when she takes the habit off?

That would be your answer then.

[Violet_Crumble]

328. Women who take off their hijab get acid spashed in their face? On what planet? n/t

[WinkyDink]

349. Are you joking?! HERE:

http://frontpagemag.com/2009/11/24/muslim-women-disfigured-by-acid-by-phyllis-chesler/

http://hraic.com/punishment_of_muslim_women.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-dare-we-stand-up-for-muslim-women-969631.html

http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=21690

[Violet_Crumble]

351. No, I'm not joking because I know there's many many women who don't get acid in their face...

You trot out a few incidents (and I hope you realise one of those sources is an extreme RW Islamophobic source) involving Muslim womem, but I could find a few instances of Jewish women having acid splashed in their faces for not dressing modestly enough for the Haredi males who attack them, but it would be equally wrong to then use those examples as meaning that all Jewish women in Jerusalem are attacked with acid for not dressing modestly enough. The post I was replying to was one where they were talking as though if any Muslim woman takes off her hijab, she'llo be attacked with acid. That's clearly not true at all...

[WVRICK13]

332. No Difference

They are both equally oppressed by their cults.

[WinkyDink]

347. HERE'S THE DIFFERENCE: Being a nun is a VOCATION (literally). Being a female born into Islam is NOT.

END OF DISCUSSION.

[Chulanowa]

353. Here's the detail you're missing.

when you pass a nun on the street, you know she is a nun. You know why she is dressed in that fashion. If you're familiar with sisterly orders you may even be able to tell which she belongs to, what they do, and thus what this particular woman feels her calling is. You may not know what made her decide to become a nun, but you know that she is one, and you can make well-educated guesses from there.

You cannot do that with a woman in a headscarf.

A great many of such women are just women who are wearing a headscarf. some of them may just like headscarves. Some of them may be Muslim. others may be Jewish. Or one of the more orthodox varieties of Christianity. She may be a Sikh. She may be a Roma or a Slavic woman wearing what her culture considers appropriate headgear.

Of those who are Muslim, many will have been born into it. A fair number will have converted.

Many of them will never wear a headscarf in their life, much less anything more than that.

Many will wear some form of Islamic dress, however.

Of those that do, some will be forced or intimidated into it. Women in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and increasingly Iraq are subject to this sort of coersion and terrorism, and it is seen in abusive families elsewhere as well.

Some women will wear some variety of the outfit because they feel it is in keeping with their faith. They are no different from the millions of women worldwide who do the same for other faiths; or lack of faith, even, for those women who enjoy wearing their Darwinfish jewelry or something.

Others will wear it because they find it fashionable; this is often the case in Syria and Western Europe, where "designer" hijabs are increasingly popular. For these women, it is nothing more than a new variety of legwarmer or cast-eye sunglasses.

Some women will even wear these articles of clothing as an act of defiance - Some nations such as Syria, France, China, and Turkey have laws, regulations, and cultural stigmas against wearing these garments, and the women who wear them do so for the direct purpose of daring a motherfucker to do something.

In some places, Muslim women will wear their garments as a piece of cultural identity - and the practice may carry into the identity of non-Muslims who share that cultural identity. The Uighers of China wrap their heads to declare "I am Uigher!" - even if they are not Muslim - there are a fair number of Buddhists and Christians among them. In the West, a Muslim woman may don the hijab or even more, for the same reason African-Americans sported daishikis in the 1970's - to affirm their own identity and to let those around them know that they are not going to just "fade in."

Many of them will wear such outfits as a form of feminism, even! I know it sounds strange, given how in the West the clothing scale goes in the absolute opposite direction. But yes, there are plenty of Muslim and nonMuslim women through Africa, the Middle East, and Asia who see the headgear as a mark of femininity, something to be proud of wearing, a way of telling the world around them "yes, I'm a woman, and you will have to deal with it."

A nun is a nun. You know lots about her just by knowing that. You can't say the same about a woman in a headscarf, even if you know she's a Muslim.