Chávez receives advance brigade of Cuban doctors

[IndianaGreen]

Chávez receives advance brigade of Cuban doctors

CARACAS, October 8.— Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez today received the new advance brigade of Cuban doctors, who arrived in the country to boost the Barrio Adentro Mission healthcare program that is being implemented by the Bolivarian government.

Telesur reported that the incorporation of these new Cuban doctors will advance work in the 7,000 primary healthcare centers throughout Venezuela, given that approximately 2,000 of these had no permanent doctor, as the Venezuelan president stated in September.

On the other hand, Prensa Latina cited Chávez as having affirmed that 24,811 Venezuelans are studying community medicine in 318 of the country’s 335 municipalities.

This figure is in excess of the 22,059 students matriculated in seven-year programs at university medical schools in the nation, he stated during an event marking the Day of the Community Doctor.

Meanwhile, Rogelio Polanco, the Cuban ambassador in Venezuela, said that the fact that Venezuela is training its physicians in the community will promote doctors with a commitment to their people. He described the experiment, in which the Cuban doctors are collaborating as instructors, as unprecedented in the history of humanity

http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2009/octubre/vier9/Chavez-receives.html

[Peace Patriot]

1. One of the sorry legacies of rightwing rule in Venezuela was the rich oil elite's

utter neglect of the education of doctors. Venezuela had a critical shortage of doctors when Chavez was first elected, and that kind of problem--much like land reform (training a new generation of farmers, improving food self-sufficiency)--takes decades to overcome. You can't train doctors--or convert neglected land to food production--overnight. Especially with the rightwing and their corpo/fascist press screaming in your ears that you are a "COMMUNIST"!!!

They neglected food self-sufficiency and land reform. They neglected local manufacturing and were even importing machine parts for the oil industry! They didn't give a fuck about education and health care for the poor majority. They had their Gucci bags, and their Jaguars, and their second homes in Miami, and to hell with everybody else, and to hell with their country.

Just like our Bushwhacks.

Luckily, Cuba has poured some of its resources into medical education--instead of into the pockets of the rich--and created one of the best medical systems in the western hemisphere, and, indeed, in the world--which is available to ALL, free of charge. A medical education does not cost indenture to banks for the rest of your life. It is FREE. And Cuba can therefore provide doctors to countries who need them, and who are just beginning to overcome the neglect and malfeasance of rightwing regimes on health care issues.

[Braulio]

2. Venezuelan public hospital conditions

The new wave of Cuban doctors is a result of the letter sent by Fidel Castro to Chavez, pointing out the Barrio Adentro program had fallen into a crisis, and Venezuelan public health care was a big mess.

The experts point out the problem is pervasive, and a few Cuban doctors won't solve the problem as long as public hospitals are underfunded. Regarding the number of doctors in Venezuela, the Chavez response was very interesting. Rather than increasing the funding to the hospitals, to create better conditions, and raising doctors' wages, he chose to make a deal with Cuba to bring in Cuban doctors, creating a parallel Cuban-run system. This, it seems to me, was done in part to funnel cash to Cuba.

Thus, 10 years after Chavez took over, the public hospitals continue to be a big mess - don't forget Chavez himself said so - and the solution continues to be wrong headed - to import Cubans and create a distorted medical education system, rather than build on the existing medical school, nursing school, and hospital infrastructure - which just happens to be heavily underfunded and neglected.

This just one example of what we call mismanagement at the government level, and one reason why term limits is an excellent idea. It's not sanitary to have people running things who just happen to do it badly most of the time.

[Mika]

3. Why post such incredible nonsense?

The new wave of Cuban doctors is a result of the care, dedication and hard work in the training of the Cuban and Ven. medical professionals, and their own personal commitment to their neighbors and friends in need. Not some fucking letter! Way to go with the utter dismissal of the dedication and toils of caring health care givers.

Training thousands of Drs and health care auxiliaries is a hugely expensive undertaking. The money saved via this cooperative with Cuba is being redirected to the building of local clinics - the primary and most effective preventative and ameliorating care centers for most Venezuelans - leaving more money to be available to upgrade the hugely expensive hospital system.

Your whole comment on "10 years after Chavez took over" is rooted in bunk. Mr Chavez is the duly elected head of state by a large majority. It takes decades to rebuild a destroyed medical infrastructure, but the most effective methods of upgrading health care is on the local level, as Ven is doing. Using the Cuban model, and Cuban doctors to cover the transition phases, is a very good way to do this. Looking at Cuba's stats in this arena is very telling as to its effectiveness.

Your support for undemocratic process, such as term limits, doesn't surprise me one little bit.


I'm certainly not claiming that Ven. is any utopia, but conditions for the poor and working poor are certainly improving since Mr Chavez' administrations have been repeatedly elected. I am not going to join the corporatist choir in condemning their successful cooperative efforts in building social infrastructure.

[Braulio]

4. Stick to the subject

The new wave of Cuban doctors is the result of a letter sent by Castro to Chavez. Chavez himself said so, quoted the letter on national TV, and declared a national emergency because the hospital system is in terrible conditions.

The Cubans sent to Venezuela aren't exactly dedicated missionary workers, the Cuban government gets paid for their services, and they get a small cut.

Reality bites, but this the way it is: Hugo Chavez took over the Presidency 10 years ago - and don't start bsing about whether he was elected or not, that's completely irrelevant. He has been in charge for 10 years. And in 10 years the public hospital system has degenerated. The money has been put into the Cuban operated system. Meanwhile no additional funding has been dovoted to the medical schools, nor nursing schools, nor the infrastructure (in other words, if it's not in the system run by Cubans, it's not getting improved).

The Cuban system (the so called barrio adentro), was allowed to decay in recent years - which shows the government isn't focused on improving health care. The ONLY reason why there's additional activity now is because Castro wrote the letter to Chavez.

Why do I know this? Because I interviewed 5 Venezuelan doctors who have recently left Venezuela and moved to Europe because their pay was lousy, the hospitals are decaying, and they feared for their lives. Security in Venezuelan hospitals is terrible, and there are frequent robberies INSIDE the facilities (it's notable that Venezuela's crime rate has increased during Chavez' tenure in government, and today Caracas is one of the most dangerous cities in the world, with most of the victims being poor people who get gunned down during robberies and shootouts between gangs).

I also happen to read what Chavez says...and if you bothered to follow what he says, you would be fully aware he was recently forced to admit the health system was in serious trouble. A significant amount of material was discussed in DU about this matter.

I know this is the type of information people like you will reject. You live in your blahdedlidah world with your blahdedidlah excuses for your blahdedidlah systemic failures.

[Judi Lynn]

5. We know what has been discussed here by DU'ers. We've been here for years.

We also know what gets passed off in here as "news" by disruptors.

This site was designed for a Democratic, liberal, progressive user group.

[Braulio]

8. What would Jesus say?

Interesting point you make. "This site was designed for a Democratic, liberal, progressive user group". Let me guess, "democratic, liberal, and progressive" means anybody who agrees with you? And anybody who doesn't isn't.

Furthermore, I suppose this also means you believe it's better if people remain within closed, self-imposed boundaries, where they can avoid opinions contrary to those they hold so dear. This of course is very comfortable, like being held in your mother's arms, wrapped in your baby blanket.

I do wonder if you realize what you are missing, if you make your intellectual life so sterile you're not willing to face people who disagree with you. I also wonder if you realize the degree of insecurity people display when they're not willing to engage in debate.

Last year, I went into the Red States website to criticize Bush. I felt somewhat bitter that his presidency had caused so much harm, and didn't want the rigth wingers who blog there to feel they could escape without some criticism. I lasted about 72 hours.

Later, I visited the Commondreams website, recommended by my sister, who happens to be so radical she's on the US's no fly list, and I was driven out, also in about 72 hours. I believe it was because I advocated capitalism in spite of the financial meltdown. The guys at Commondreams don't like dissonance.

I've found DU to be quite a bit better than Common Dreams. Let's face it, my opinions are so radical, it's doubtful I will get much agreement with anything I say. I do find your opinions refreshing, if somewhat naive, and sometimes quite ill-informed. Sometimes I've found some very interesting tidbits, which lead my research into avenues I would never have found on my own.

So I'll continue to read here, and to bring you a simple message: you defeat yourselves if you refuse to listen to those who disagree with you. Don't be like the dogmatic Christians who used to burn heretics alive - in the end history will condemn you, and you will lose.

[EFerrari]

10. Your ideas are radical? To whom? Bay Buchanan?

:rofl:

[Braulio]

12. My ideas are radical to you

Aren't they? Here, you are the establishment, I am the revolutionary one.

[EFerrari]

14. LOL

[Mika]

7. "Stick to the subject" LOL. What subject might that be? Let's see..

I know this is the type of information people like you will reject. You live in your blahdedlidah world with your blahdedidlah excuses for your blahdedidlah systemic failures.

People like me? Oh, yeah. That subject.


Including the last fantastical comment, your entire post is swill laden hogwash. Especially your report on the lack of dedication to the missionary work of Cuban Drs by your claimed source of 5 Venezuelan Drs who left Ven. for Europe for more pay. :eyes:

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[Braulio]

9. Cuban Missionary Doctors

Actually, they're just plain doctors. No missionary work involved in their jobs. They're just doing work for pay, and don't have that revolutionary zeal you dream about. After 50 years of revolution, very few Cubans have much revolutionary zeal left at all. They're just looking out for themselves and their families.

As a matter of fact, I wonder if you realize the irony. If you've been in power for 50 years, and have become the establishment the way Castro has, then what's revolutionary about you or your position? You are just and old guy with stale ideas.

[Mika]

16. For your edification ..

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mission

It might help for you to understand the words you use.

The rest of your post is a demonstration of how you don't.

[Braulio]

19. I don't mind being patronized

The Cuban doctors in Venezuela aren't missionaries. They are medical workers making a living. The Cuban government charges a fee to the Venezuelan government for their services, and they get paid a small portion.

The word missionary is commonly used to mean a volunteer or a person with a religious bent, such as we see in Africa. Next time don't bother, I don't mind if you patronize or insult me.

[Mika]

28. Hopeless.

:dunce:

[EFerrari]

11. LOL! I want one of those.

It will help me forget my ill-imformed naivete.

:rofl:

[Peace Patriot]

17. "... and don't start bsing about whether he was elected or not...".

Well, he WAS--in an election system that is far, FAR more transparent than our own. So, this is a problem for the Venezuelan people. They don't like Chavez? They blame him for crime, or for bad hospitals? They can throw him out. They have the power, in Venezuela, to recall their president--a power that is kicking in right about now (they can get up a recall petition against a president two years into a term--he was re-elected in 2006). Or they can wait until 2010 and throw him out.

I'm not holding my breath, though. Chavez is very popular in Venezuela (consistent 55% to 60% approval ratings). You know why? Because he LISTENS and RESPONDS. Something's wrong? He ADDRESSES it. Maybe the Chavez government didn't address health care in the best way. But at least they didn't frigging sit on their frigging Gucci bags in their frigging Jaguars and DO NOTHING.

That's what the prior rightwing governments did--NOTHING!

And, frankly, I have no sympathy whatsoever for doctors who run off to Europe, to make bigger salaries, while their countrymen need them. What an example!

But back to the elections in Venezuela, which you casually dismiss as "bs." Isn't that what democracy and government are all about? The people of Venezuela chose Chavez in provably transparent elections, and they didn't listen to you or to people with opinions like yours. And, as with all Chavez government policies, in all fairness we must presume that the people of Venezuela largely approved of a decentralized medical system, with resources poured into local clinics. The Chavez government has meanwhile undertaken big efforts to keep children in school, to wipe out illiteracy, to greatly reduce extreme poverty and hunger, to provide funding for the poor to attend school (including adult education), and to insure education for all citizens through college--and through medical school, if that's what they choose and are capable of. Education--and also nutrition--are as important to health care as hospitals are. These priorities have been set by the ELECTED government. That government's failures or successes are plain for all to see. And it is up to the elected government to remedy its failures, and it is up to the voters of Venezuela to hold them accountable if they do not.

I've read accounts of poor old ladies in the barrios who never saw a doctor in their lives! Now they can walk down the street and get basic care and preventative care. That is an excellent goal. It is up to the communities involved, the medical professionals and the Chavez government to insure that for everyone who needs it. They can't solve long-term, chronic problems caused by decades of utter neglect and malfeasance overnight! The important point is that the Chavez government is TRYING. The previous governments did NOTHING. NOTHING! The rich got health care; and the vast poor majority could go to hell.

Your remedy is big salaries for doctors. Right. And that has improved our health care system...how? The truth is that medical care should not be a business at all. That it is, is a symptom of our corpo/fascist tyranny. Health care should be provided, free to all, through taxation--in the interest of the public and the common good. It should NEVER depend on how much money someone has, or how much money they can make by profiting from the suffering of others. Health care is a human right. The Chavez government has been working on that right for about half of Chavez's term (the latter half). (The first half they spent trying to fend off Bushwhack-instigated coups, strikes and every manner of disruption.) Acknowledging health care as a human right, and trying to implement it as a human right, is not an easy task, after decades of malfeasance and neglect. Why lard abuse on Chavez, for trying--and ignore the utterly uncaring, callous and obstructive rightwing, there and also here?

[Braulio]

20. Geez, you like to write a lot

You seem to bring up the mantra "he was elected, he was elected" as if being elected gave a politician the right to do a lousy job? LOL.

Doctors leaving Venezuela to make a better living elsewhere don't need your sympathy. The point is that Venezuelan doctors are poorly paid. It doesn't make sense for them to spend up to 10 years getting an MD so they can make the same amount of money if they work turning valves in the oil field. According to the doctors I interviewed, many of the specialist cadres are now empty - there's no interest to go through the grind after getting the basic MD, because it's not worth it.

What's my remedy? I don't know enough about Venezuela to be specific. I do know that it doesn't make sense to flood a country with imported foreign labor and underpay locals so much they start moving to Europe, and it sure doesn't make sense to underfund hospitals while at the same time paying a foreign power to build and staff an ad-hoc set of medical facilities which fail to deliver the care the people need, and on top are subsequently neglected.

Remember, I am just bringing up the point Chavez brought up in his speech - the national health care system in Venezuela is in crisis, and Chavez called it a national emergency. I wonder, if he's so busy with everything else he has to deal with, then why doesn't he fire the health minister, whoever he or she is, and get somebody with a working brain on the job? And fund it? He seems to have plenty of money.

Democracy isn't about mismanaging government. Since you're evidently American, I guess you do believe Bush wasn't elected TWICE to demolish the US economy, let New Orleans drown, get the USA involved in two wars he couldn't win, give the go ahead to torture prisoners, make sure the gap between rich and poor got wider, and otherwise do the lousiest job a person could have done.

The same applies to Chavez or any other politician - they ought to take their job seriously and manage it well. And it seems to me the Venezuelan health service is a good example of how NOT to do it.

[spanza]

22. "Chavez is very popular in Venezuela (consistent 55% to 60% approval ratings). You know why?

he LISTENS and RESPONDS. Something's wrong? He ADDRESSES it."

The problem with you is that you usually apply double standards.

Let's see:
If the rate of approval is a sign of a great social government in poverty affected countries like ours as you've been constantly implying, and Uribe's approval rate is +/- 15-20 points higher than Chavez's... What does it mean?

Are you saying Uribe's government is way better for the people than Chavez's?

[Peace Patriot]

23. You think poor peasants and leftists answer pollsters' questions honestly,

when they might get carved up by a chainsaw and their body parts thrown into a mass grave, for doing so?

You think pollsters even go into barrios or out onto Chiquita's death farms in Colombia?

I don't believe the results of polls OR elections in Colombia. The conditions for democracy do not exist there. Colombia has one of the worst human rights records in the world! Speaking freely has gotten thousands of people of killed--union leaders, human rights lawyers, community organizers, journalists, peasant farmers, political leftists. It is NOT SAFE to speak freely.

And you are citing polls from Colombia? Well, that tells us a lot about you. You don't have a clue about the requirements of democracy, and you don't recognize true tyranny when you see it.

[Braulio]

25. Well, it seems to me both Uribe and Chavez are popular

But the data from both nations show a very interesting pattern: the public supports the leader, but doesn't like government performance. In other words, they disconnect the leader (whom they like as a charismatic leader), from their every day problems.

Uribe does show very high ratings, much higher than Chavez, and I doubt these are masked by fear, as you claim. Pollsters know how to dig down to get numbers, and their methods are backed by election results time after time.

Uribe seems to have gained the people's admiration because he has driven the FARC back, and the economy has been growing. Hopefully President Obama will put pressure on him to work to improve the living conditions for the poor, as he gains breathing room with the FARC being on the run. But the key may be for the USA to stop consuming so much dope, or to legalize it so that drug warlords don't finance so much corruption and mayhem (and this applies to other countries beyond Colombia).

In Venezuela's case, Chavez relies on handouts, missions, and propaganda, which are quite effective because the poor in Venezuela have been so neglected. However, a model based on handouts and missions will eventually run into trouble, because the population is increasing, and the source of the handouts is oil. Oil prices are volatile and the "easy oil" is no longer so easy to produce in Venezuela - they're increasingly having to switch to producing very heavy oil, and that stuff is nasty.

[spanza]

27. Come on

I'm citing the same source EFerrari uses. You just can't stand admitting anything you say is wrong, do you?

About elections in Colombia, they were approved by the same organizations that validated the venezuelan ones. If you say they don't tell the truth, ok with me, but why would you cite them so much in the case of Venezuela?

Once again, you apply double standards and that is intellectually dishonest.

[Peace Patriot]

30. Yes, the OAS monitored Colombia's 2006 election, in which voter turnout was a miserable 55%,

and the best the OAS could say about Colombia's election is this:

“While it is known that Colombia is undergoing a difficult situation in terms of public order, which includes assassinations, intimidation and kidnappings by groups operating outside the law**, this electoral process demonstrated improved conditions for campaigning, which in contrast to previous elections, allowed the different candidates to carry out some public activities.”

http://www.oas.org/OASpage/press_releases/press_release.asp?sCodigo=E-146/06

--

*(FYI, Most political assassinations in Colombia are committed by the Colombian military and its closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads, against political leftists, union leaders, human rights workers and others who oppose or merely monitor the government. According to Amnesty International, 92% of the murders of union leaders, for instance, were committed by the Colombian military (about half) and its deaths squads (the other half). Only two percent were committed by the FARC. The rest were street crimes. How can anyone who knows anything about democracy claim that there are fair elections or fair polls of any kind in Colombia, in these circumstances? But, hey, candidates were able to carry out "some" public activities! Wow! And I'll bet some of the leftist candidates even survived the election!)

______________________

"That U.S. media consistently praises official U.S. friends and condemns official enemies goes hand-in-glove with their refusal to acknowledge polling that directly contradicts their justifications for U.S. Latin American policy. Young lists Latinobarómetro results showing 'Hugo Chávez's Venezuela is the third 'freest' country among the 18 surveyed,' while 'the three large countries whose governments remain closely aligned with the United States--Colombia, Mexico and Peru--rank well below Venezuela in every category" polled, such as 'Democracy guarantees the freedom to participate in politics,' 'Democracy guarantees freedom of expression, always and in all parts (of the country' and 'The most effective way to change things is by voting to elect those who defend my position.'"

http://www.fair.org/blog/tag/latinobarometro/

---

One of the points of the above article is to illustrate how bad the corpo/fascist 'news' coverage is, in the U.S., on Latin American issues. The corpo/fascist press closely follows the US government line--and sometimes leads it in LYING ABOUT the Latin American left. They--like the anti-Chavez posters in this thread--do not present a balanced view of Venezuela's or other leftist governments, do not seek objective information, ignore, suppress or minimize and belittle positive information (such as the poll the article is citing), and intend a demonization of hugely popular leaders, like Chavez in Venezuela, Morales in Bolivia and Correa in Ecuador (whose approval ratings run in the 60% to 70% region).

By all measures--including many other polls I've read ('do you think your country is going in the right direction?'-type of polls), and transparent elections--these leaders are doing fabulously well, in the opinion of their own people--but that is NEVER reflected in the reporting on these leaders here. So, either the anti-Chavez posters herein are adopting the viewpoint of the corpo/fascist press inadvertently, through no fault of their own--because they have been brainwashed--or they have some kind of agenda. They are relentlessly anti-Chavez. They add their venom to that of the corpo/fascist media. That is a VERY, VERY unbalanced view.

I don't go around touting pro-Chavez information. I hardly ever do OPs. And generally I only mention positive facts and analysis on Chavez when I see these goddamn corpo/fascist LIES and this relentlessly negative viewpoint repeated here at DU, even in a thread about reports of Chavez falling ill!

And many of these posters, including yourself, keep posting as OPs yet more negative headlines from the corpo/fascist press--filling up the Latin American Forum with the Associated Pukes' view of Chavez and Venezuela.

This is intolerable to me--so I reply with facts and analysis that reveals the other side--why Chavez remains so popular with his own people, and why other leaders in Latin America are his friends and allies.

The leftist democracy movement in Latin America exhilarates me--even when it makes mistakes, even when it fails. It is an amazing and historic development, vitally important to our own democracy as well as to the welfare of the people of Latin America. And I could mention all kinds of mistakes and failures that I see. But why should I do that, when the corpo/fascist media bombards people with this constant rain of overt and covert propaganda to infuse our minds with an IMPRESSION that this democracy movement is Stalinist (bad, totalitarian)? It is the opposite of totalitarian. REAL democracy has come to Latin America. That is why our corpo/fascist press, and our corporate-run government, hates it and reviles it so much. Real democracy is the last thing in the world they want for Latin Americans or for us.

And it is extremely ironical that they would call Chavez a "dictator," on the one hand, and then blame him for not solving street crime in Caracas, or problems in the health care system, yesterday. If he's a "dictator," why doesn't he put all these people in jail, take away Venezuelans' guns, send the army into the hospitals? Why doesn't he? BECAUSE HE'S NOT A DICTATOR. He's merely a president. Presidents have to work mostly by consensus and persuasion.

This recent harping on street crime, and the hospital crisis, it seems to me, is the result of the complete failure of all the prior bogus charges against Chavez. He is, as Lulu da Silva has said, a strong democrat (with a small d). He has broken no laws. He has scrupulously adhered to the Venezuelan Constitution. He has killed no one, jailed no one unfairly, tortured no one, repressed no one, invaded no one; he is not in power as the result of rigged elections, etc. These are the signs of a tyrant. He has exhibited NO signs of tyranny! He's a strong leader, yes--but that is not the same thing as a tyrant.

That was the mantra of the first group of anti-Chavez posters at DU--they were pushing the "Chavez the dictator" line. And, gee, I wonder why I would be skeptical when a whole new group of anti-Chavez posters show up promoting a different line--Chavez's failures.

And yet, somehow, the people of Venezuela just don't seem overly upset by these failures--and keep voting for him and his government, and keep giving him high marks in every kind of opinion poll.

And to those who would attribute this to "hand-outs" to the poor (which one of the posters here has said), I would ask: Who does the oil belong to? Is this not what a small elite group of rich people do, with a country's resources--hand the profits out to each other? Why not make the hand-out more widespread, and use it to promote education and other bootstrapping? Why should the rich's hand-outs to the rich be okay, but the poor peoples' president's hand-outs to a much larger group not be okay? And which hand-out is more liable to improve the country's future?

Anyway, the oil is not Chavez's to hand out. It belongs to the people of Venezuela--ownership that he has helped to enhance and enforce, on their behalf, as their elected president, with their approval. Benefits from the oil are not "hand-outs." They are the real owners of the oil yielding the profits. A 'peoples' Wall Street.' Wall Street with justice.

It is up to the true owners of Venezuela to see to problems like street crime and troubled hospitals, and to insist that government attend to them, and Venezuelans have the democratic tools to make this happen. I don't see the relevance of obsessing on problems like these here, except to further berate Chavez, and we've had quite enough of that.

[ChangoLoa]

31. No one has said here that he was a dictator

You seem to be fighting against ghosts and missing to listen to other people's arguments. The guy was talking about the double standard you apply, your answer looks a bit like an escape. No offense meant. The point is that popularity is not always = to good government. Do you mean Uribe is not popular in Colombia? Sounds strange with the polls saying his popularity is around 70-80%, but ok. I could still tell you many cases where popular governments were not good ones.

I think the image that you are diffusing about my country is not only wrong, it is impossible. You say "transparent elections, maximum citizen participation in government and politics, universal free medical care, universal free education through college, the country's resources being used to benefit the people, equal civil and human rights for all, adherence to the "rule of law," the "sovereignty of the people" (as opposed to Corporate Rule), peaceful, cooperative relations with other countries, and other aspects of the Bolivarian Revolution that began in Venezuela with the Chavez government". It sounds like paradise!

But when you have been confronted with facts (such as real illiteracy evolution, breaking laws and not respecting electoral results in Caracas, the history of free healthcare and free education in Venezuela, the previous policies before the reform of the IMF, the public diffusion of the names of the people who signed against the president, the "good news" about the revolution published in the non-chavista press), you have ignored them and failed to answer them with desprecio.

For me, that means you don't care at all about what actually happens in Venezuela. And forgive me but me too I am a little skeptical about an american guy who has never been to Venezuela but pretends he knows the situation better than anyone else without giving any FACTS.

When you have facts, come back and let's have a dialog.

[Peace Patriot]

32. I don't think that sounds like "paradise." I think it sounds like a good, functioning democracy.

Those are basic elements of democracy, in my view. They are stated goals of the Chavez government. No government reaches all of its goals, or proceeds without making mistakes and having to revise policies. My ONLY point is that a democratic system is in place, the government has good goals--goals that serve the public interest--unlike previous governments, who served only the rich, and I have personally researched every accusation to the contrary--that this government is not democratic, that its president is a "dictator," that he has "shut down the media," that he has curtailed free speech, that he hates Jews, that he is destroying Venezuela's economy, etc., etc., and I have found every one of them to be BOGUS.

So why should a credit a new crop of Chavez critics who set off on a new tack--that Chavez is not a "dictator" but rather a "failure"?

It's just laughable. If Chavez is not a "dictator," if Venezuela's democracy is functioning quite well, if people are quite free to speak their minds, organize and petition their government, if the elections are transparent and fair, if people are generally happy with the government and the direction of the country, and if the government is generally representing the interests of the people, and not some exclusive club of the rich and the corporate, then problems like street crime or troubled hospitals can be solved, and it is up to the people and the government to address them. Why are these problems paraded all over the corpo/fascist press, and here at DU, via corpo/fascist 'news' articles? And, for that matter, why aren't you out there solving them, if you are a Venezuelan? Why complain about them to us? What you trying to convince me of? What are you trying to convince DU of? That Chavez is a failure? Okay, say Chavez is a failure. Next question: Why do 60% of the people of Venezuela not think so?

You know, it's essentially the same issue as "Chavez the dictator." Okay, say Chavez is a dictator. Um, so, why does he keep getting elected, in provably transparent elections? Because he's "buying" the peoples' favor, with their own oil money, and not looting them blind? Isn't that what a good leader should be doing? Because he advocates for the poor? Because he believes in their equal rights in society? Gee...AND he's a "dictator"? That's quite a trick. Maybe 60% of Venezuelans are stupid peasants and just keep voting for their own oppressor--is that it? And, um, why do so many other leaders like and respect him--and praise him, for being a democrat, for being a peacemaker--as Lula da Silva has?

So, okay, say Chavez has failed on street crime, public hospitals, a couple of instances of strong-arm politics and a few other things. How do these weigh against his accomplishments? I think the accomplishments far outweigh the failures--if these are his failures. And you could get up a list like this, of failures, for every good president who ever existed. You should see the list the rightwing got up on FDR! And on Thomas Jefferson! And Jimmy Carter!

I really don't understand why you are trying to convince North Americans (or the English-reading world of DU) that Chavez is somehow bad, a failure, or whatever you are trying to prove. If what you say is true, take your case to the Venezuelan voters, not to me. What do you care what I think?

Maybe you are arguing this "case" here because you have lost the argument in Venezuela--hm?--and you want the US to intervene on your behalf, and you are therefore lobbying US voters. Perhaps you don't want to see peace between the Obama and Chavez governments--you feel your "case" is failing at the State Dept., that the truth is getting out that Chavez is not a "dictator," and the US government therefore might not be on one side (the "opposition" side) any more, pouring USAID money into all your rightwing groups, and plotting Chavez's overthrow?

Well, if that's the case, I'm lobbying against you, it's true. I don't want the US to be on one side in Venezuela. I want my government to treat your president and your voters' choices with respect; I want the US military to get the fuck out of Colombia and the Caribbean, and stop threatening Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia and others; I want US corporations to stop looting and exploiting Latin America; I want the embargo on Cuba lifted, and let the chips fall where they may, as to how Latin America decides to organize itself.

I find that I am in agreement with Chavez and the majority in Venezuela, and the majority in Latin America, on these issues--and I'm glad of it. Chavez is very right to fight US domination--and so are his many allies. I am totally against my tax dollars going to Colombia's narcothug leaders, by the billions! Let's see if the Uribe government can survive without being propped up by $6 BILLION in funding from the people of the US, and God knows how many more billions for the seven new US military bases in Colombia! We need that money here. Let the Uribe government fall, or survive, on its own merits--not with the US military and US tax dollars holding it together.

I also want our people to learn from the leftist democracy revolution that has swept South America and half of Central America, because we could definitely use a leftist democracy revolution here, and we desperately need some socialist policies. I think we have much to learn from the grass roots leftists in Venezuela--the people who put Chavez is office, and who have kept him there, through coups, strikes, recalls and constant US and local rightwing plotting. This country is sick unto death from war profiteers, banksters and global corporate predators of every kind. How can WE elect a strong advocate of the people again--a 21st Century FDR? That's what I want to know. And how can our peoples--north and south--work together for social justice, equality, democracy and peace?

I don't see these as your goals. You are here to dis Chavez, in whatever way you can worm that negative message into this Forum. I don't find dialogue with you enlightening, or informative. I think it is your intention to deprive the poor majority in Venezuela of the government that they have worked so hard to elect and to keep in power. I've heard all of these charges against Chavez before. None of it is new. And they are always attended by this carping, sniping, whining attitude that wants...what? The US to save you from your failures in Venezuela? All I can do--as a very disempowered citizen of the US--is to hope and pray that my government does not.

[ChangoLoa]

37. When you have facts, come back ... instead of acting like a tribunal

"Us" and "You" logic, sectarian and not progressive

"unlike previous governments, who served only the rich": which ones? how? blah blah? You don't seem to know anything about our history. Try to be specific, there are some arguments supporting your position in many books.

"I have personally researched every accusation to the contrary": in venezuelananalysis with Chavez portrait in the front page.

"via corpo/fascist 'news' articles?": that's a big lie.

"that this government is not democratic, that its president is a "dictator," that he has "shut down the media," that he has curtailed free speech, that he hates Jews, that he is destroying Venezuela's economy": you still talking to ghosts, those were not mentioned by me.

"new crop of Chavez critics": I'm just an individual.

"I think the accomplishments far outweigh the failures": which accomplishments? still have nothing to build your arguments around? FACTS.

"Maybe you are arguing this "case" here because you have lost the argument in Venezuela--hm?": I discuss with venezuelan chavistas everyday and we share our ideas without all this kind of accusation and paranoia that you've been giving to me because they are not fanatics and they can see my ideals. I have lots of chavista friends. They have no problem in commenting facts and critics. They don't say the things you say about traditional newspapers, maybe because they're adults who are able to discern things by themselves and because, unlike you, they know Venezuela. Let's see what happens in future elections. I know the climate in my country and, believe it or not, chavistas are getting tired of the inefficiency, power abuses and corruption.

"Chavez is very right to fight US domination": the fight against imperialism existed very long before Chavez in Venezuela and with or without him, it will remain. Anti-imperialism doesn't justify mismanagement.

"I also want our people to learn from the leftist democracy revolution that has swept South America and half of Central America": I believe Chavez is missing this historical opportunity and not consolidating the door he opened.

"the people who put Chavez in office": I'm part of that group.

"And how can our peoples--north and south--work together for social justice, equality, democracy and peace?
I don't see these as your goals": You're very wrong in that.

"I think it is your intention to deprive the poor majority in Venezuela of the government that they have worked so hard to elect and to keep in power": You don't know how to listen and you judge. That's a narrow-minded attitude.

"The US to save you from your failures in Venezuela?" What are MY failures? That's a very low thing to say. And ridiculous! How would I be lobbying in this Latin American forum. Are you serious? Do you think I belong to some kind of elite or what? Why would that be? Because I have internet and speak bad english?


Do you always support your ideas with superficial generalities?

If you want to have some knowledge about actuality in Venezuela, take venezuelan newspapers, the "chavista" ones and the "opposition" ones, and read them both. Rational enough?

[Judi Lynn]

56. Whom do you imagine is likely to support your personal attacks on someone

who is as deeply respected as Peace Patriot?

Your insults and attacks are not welcome here.

Didn't you take the time to read any of the DU rules placed in plain view here? Personal attacks on DU'ers are unwanted. Period.

The owners of this site tell you to discuss the material, do NOT slime the DU'er members.

If this is too hard to manage, go elsewhere.

[ChangoLoa]

57. That's not true

Are you a mod? You are behaving like one and it's not your role to speak to people like an authority. If you think I went too far, report my message and let the mods decide.

Where did I make a personal attack? Not agreeing with you and saying that you are talking nonsense is not a personal attack. On the other hand, I think you have made many personal attacks. And I really don't care but you should use the same severity judging yourself or start being respectful if you ask for respect.

From your posts I interpretate that you are a castrista, so I imagine that we don't agree on much. But, fortunately, the leftist movement is not limited to Castro or Chavez.

[Bacchus39]

60. its her standard operating procedure. especially for new posters

attempt to belittle them. you are Venezuelan and not a Chavista so your views are a threat to her and other's imaginary vision of Venezuela and the Chavez government. most have never been to Venezuela nor speak Spanish.

[Vidar]

45. No source: fantasy or FOX, who can tell?

[spanza]

13. Yeah, sure!

So now, according to Chavez and the sites you get your information from, Venezuela has 2 times more doctors/hab than France, Sweden and Denmark, 1,5 times more than Switzerland and Norway, and 3 times more than UK. A bit difficult to believe?

Check numbers first and THEN make your points.
Venezuela has never imported as much foreign merchandises as it does today! Specially when you consider food imports. That means Venezuela was a lot more food self sufficient 25 years ago than it is now.
Our manufacturing sector employed many more people in the 80's and was a bigger part of our GDP. Go and check.
Before Chavez, our rate of physicians/10.000 habitants was already high for a latin american country. Only Uruguay and Argentina did better. Did you know that?

So what are you talking about?? You have homework to do.

When you say "overnight", you're talking about 11 years of government!

When people vote against Chavez, they are not voting right-wing. They are voting for many different tendencies. My country is not a simplified movie, it's more complex than you think and it deserves NUANCE.

I've never voted for a right-wing party in my entire life. Have you ever voted for a left-wing party in the US?

[EFerrari]

15. So now you're blaming Chavez for the 90s and globalization?

He's apparently much more powerful than I thought, time traveling at will and dictating the global economy.

[spanza]

18. Nonsense forever

Your comment is hilarious, you have no clue about economics neither.

I'm blaming him for not reversing the 89 trade reform if that was what you meant. He could have done it but he didn't.

[Braulio]

21. Spanza, Americans don't do nuances

These guys want you Venezuelans to be black or white. By the way, congratulations for doing so well with the boys'soccer team.

[spanza]

24. Thanks man

but we were eliminated by UAE in the most stupid manner and we'll not qualify for SA 2010 (Paraguay beat us). It's just a beginning I hope...

I didn't know that the majority of the Americans writing in the latin american forum and defining themselves as progressives were so reactionary. It's very surprising to see that they consider us as to be a primitive, easy to understand people. What they say is basically "either you are a chavista or a fascist, choose your side!". So sad and comic.

[Braulio]

26. Americans are isolated culturally

I've lived in the USA, and I understand them very well. Americans are mentally isolated because their country is HUGE, so they have the critical mass to create their own version of the universe. American media is inwardly focused, their culture is for the most part inwardly focused. So they have a real handicap, it's very hard for them to understand people outside the USA.

Back in the 1980's, I spent some time in Africa, and then I went to live in the USA. At the time, I made a discovery, even American blacks are culturally so American, they can't understand sub-Saharan Africans. When I explained to them problems, inter-ethnic conflicts, and what I had learned, they kept ignoring my points, and kept considering all sub-Saharan Africans as if they were one huge group, uniform, homogeneous, all of them to be treated in the same way.

I suspect the same thing happens to some extent with Latin Americans, and Venezuelans in your case. They don't realize Chavez isn't the only leftist in Venezuela, he's just the guy they happen to know.

One observation, I visited Maracaibo when the Chavista city major di Martino was having a political battle with opposition leader Manuel Rosales, and I was surprised to see how di Martino failed to understand the basic needs of the population were jobs, lower crime, better hospitals, clean water, and schools with adequate supplies for their children. The Chavistas pandered to the lowest denominator using handouts, but had no long term vision of how to tackle these fundamental problems. Rosales, who styled himself a left wing populist, also pandered and used handouts - in the end Rosales came out ahead because he had better handouts, I guess.

I think all Venezuelan politicians, of all stripes, are fundamentally flawed.

[spanza]

29. It's unfortunate

but I agree on the very low quality of Venezuelan politicians. The funny thing is how people who don't know the country can't notice that half of the chavistas and opposition leaders are former adecos, copeyanos and "puntofijistas" in general.

[EFerrari]

34. THE MONEY SHOT: Where Braulio Defends Rosales.

Thank you, Braulio, for delivering!

One observation, I visited Maracaibo when the Chavista city major di Martino was having a political battle with opposition leader Manuel Rosales, and I was surprised to see how di Martino failed to understand the basic needs of the population were jobs, lower crime, better hospitals, clean water, and schools with adequate supplies for their children.

[Peace Patriot]

39. Manuel Rosales is the one who emptied his bank accounts and is on the run in Peru.

Here's the wiki rundown on this scumbag...

In 2008 he was elected Mayor of Maracaibo again during the Venezuelan regional elections. Rosales was called on by the Comptroller General Clodosvaldo Rusian and the National Assembly several times in late 2008.<8> <9> <10>. In March 2009, based on these investigations, corruption charges were filed against Rosales in a Zulia state court, and in early April 2009 his whereabouts were unknown, with rumours that he had fled the country. The president of Rosales’s political party said that he had gone into hiding for his own protection.<11> On 22 April it was reported that he had sought political asylum in Peru, and that a court-ordered freezing of Rosales' material and financial assets found most had been removed.<12> On April 28, 2009, it was reported that Venezuela was withdrawing its ambassador to Lima, in response to Peru's decision to grant Rosales political asylum.<13> Interpol had previously issued an international arrest warrant at Venezuela's request.<14> In September 2009, Al Jazeera showed footage of a Colombian police interview with a paramilitary assassin, who claimed that in 1999 Rosales had offered him $25m to assassinate Chavez.<15><16>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Rosales

---------

I'm not surprised that anti-Chavez posters would want to distance themselves from this creep by saying that "all Venezuelan politicians, of all stripes, are fundamentally flawed"--and even try to indirectly sully Chavez and leftist politicians by saying 'they all do it.' Uh-huh. They all loot the public coffers, order up the assassination of their political opponents then flee the country! To the protection of yet another scumbag, Alan Garcia! LOL!

But, hey, we don't know that Rosales is guilty. Mustn't jump to any conclusions. I'm just kind of happy that he couldn't go to Paraguay to join Rev. Moon, and really happy that poor Miami didn't get him. We don't need any more "poor, huddled" Latin American fascists "yearning to breathe free"!

[ChangoLoa]

41. "this scumbag..."

"But, hey, we don't know that Rosales is guilty. Mustn't jump to any conclusions."

fascist tribunal again?

[ChangoLoa]

40. You don't know how to read?

Try again. He was just saying all venezuelan politicians are mediocre.

[Judi Lynn]

42. Are you 3 guys at 3 computers, or one guy pretending to be 3 guys? Thanks.

Have to run, will read your erudite response later.

[ChangoLoa]

44. Paranoia?

[Peace Patriot]

46. Uh-huh. nt

[Peace Patriot]

51. I said he is a scumbag and a creep. I didn't say he is guilty. They are not the same thing.

I consider ALL fascist politicians to be scumbags and creeps, by definition. I have never known one not to be. And I don't know why people are ever surprised when this kind of politician ends up absconding with the loot and finding safe haven with the equally corrupt (--if they're lucky and act fast). I don't know if this one's guilty, since he won't face the charges against him. It's just that, when somebody under indictment flees the country and takes all his cash with him, you kind of wonder, ya know?

I fault Chavez with letting him get away! He should have known! What kind of law enforcement is that? Down with Chavez...dictator! ...er... FAILURE!

[ChangoLoa]

52. You don't make any difference between

a socio-democrat and a fascist? I'm not saying I like this guy, I've never liked him. But your intransigence is suspicious for an anti-fascist. The divisions you make are really unusual.

[EFerrari]

53. LOL

[Peace Patriot]

54. Here's another tidbit from wiki on the "socio-democrat" (not a fascist)...

In 2006 Rosales appeared on Mega TV's Polos Opuestos where he said 'there is roughly 33% of what they call chavismo, or whatever this government system is called, the majority of them are parasites who live off the government and are subsidized by the state'. Venezuelan State Television made the video available.<6> He later flatly denied having called anyone a parasite, stating he had never offended a single Venezuelan.<7>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Rosales

--------------------------

He's a fascist. And I wonder who the parasite is.

[ChangoLoa]

58. I agree he sounded like a fascist on that recording and the radio girl from Cuba too.

And I told you I didn't like this guy.

But the best ones to judge him are the ones he administered in Zulia and they don't think he's a fascist but a populist adeco. And since he was reelected easily with big popular support and if, as you say, popularity is a sign of good government, he must have done a decent job. Or maybe your logic doesn't apply to his case?

[Bacchus39]

48. and what if he did?? even though he didn't. he lives there, you've never even been there n/t

s

[EFerrari]

33. LOL

This is too good.

I could sell this to Mel Brooks.

:rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

35. Mel Brooks would love it.

Nasty, defective fool, GianCarlo di Martino, so scary!



Fine, virtuous, GOOD Manuel Rosales, his hero, now hiding in Peru.



Poor. hard-working, martyrded schoolboy, and student leader, that nice young, 29 year old lad, Julio Soto. Had he only lived, he might have become the mayor, and conducted his bidness BIG TIME.

http://www.versionfinal.com.ve.nyud.net:8090/66/6/juliosoto.jpg http://www.radiomundial.com.ve.nyud.net:8090/yvke/files/img_noticia/t_julio_soto_402.jpg

[EFerrari]

36. Why would such a man of the people hide in Peru?

I'm sure he's just misunderstood.

:rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

38. Maybe he's bashful, that's my guess! So many fans might scare him in Maracaibo.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net.nyud.net:8090/disney/images/thumb/b/bb/Bashful.jpg/300px-Bashful.jpg

[ChangoLoa]

43. You make no sense again.

"Fine, virtuous, GOOD Manuel Rosales, his hero, now hiding in Peru."
Whose hero?

[Judi Lynn]

47. Stick to the subject, stop trying infantile personal attacks.

If you want to discuss the original post, go right ahead and do it. That's what's expected.

If you want to try to act like a child, and make personal attacks on yosters, then you're in the wrong place, and you know it. If you have questions, do read the DU regulations. Posted in plain sight.

THAT's what normal posters do here. Anything less is NOT "free speech," is antagonistic, and unwanted.

Drop your personal attacks, or take off.

[Bacchus39]

49. you just made the personal attack. the latin american forum is getting more interesting

and reasonable with our new posters.

[Zorro]

55. The recent new posters and their comments are quite refreshing

They bring a welcome first-hand perspective to Latin American topics of interest.

[Billy Burnett]

59. Quite refreshing?

Yes, it's always quite refreshing to read red baiting commie phobia from "new" posters.

[spanza]

61. Sometimes, when I read comments like the one you wrote

I'm worried that the idea of an egalitarian society working collectively is cursed to be challenged by blind and childish admiration to charismatic leadership.

Don't waste your time building imaginary enemies. Tell the truth, no ""new" poster" has said anything against communism. You should try to create imaginary friends instead, it must be nicer!

[ChangoLoa]

50. So from Chavez receives a brigade of cuban doctors

to you saying "Mel Brooks would love it." isn't there a big distance to the original post.

Isn't making fun of someone's comment a personal attack?

Or you were talking to yourself there?

[Judi Lynn]

6. Thanks for the info., I.G. n/t