L'affaire Kucinich points up a major problem in political interaction

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

Barack Obama and Dennis Kucinich both have their good points but on balance I think Kucinich is a grand-standing crackpot and that Obama is a cynical fraud.

Both views seem vanilla to me... unexceptional and too grindingly obvious to dwell on.

Yet both views are highly contentious in practice and treated as mutually exclusive.

Why?

Personalities.

At heart we desire to be led. We want heroes and authorities.

Ideas are dry. Personalities are lively. We want engaging human avatars of ideas.

The question of whether Obama is a cynical fraud is in no way informed by the question of whether Kucinich is a crank.

And visa-versa.

But if the whole range of the left critique of centrist power can be personified in the person of DK then it takes on all of his failings.

Next thing you know single-payer is short and ineffective, but has a beautiful wife.

If we have an argument about an idea then argue about an idea.

(The headline is a play on "L'affaire Dreyfus"... the Dreyfus affair where an individual case became a symbol of Jews, of anti-semiticism, of French military preparedness, and eventually of almost every aspect of French politics. But the merits of the ideas in play were not, or should not have been, determined by the specifics of the case. Fortunately Dreyfus was innocent, but if he were not it wouldn't legitimize French anti-semiticism or have much to say about great-power relations.)

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[Kurt_and_Hunter]

2. Welcome to DU

Enjoy your stay.

Back at Freerepublic I have no doubt they conflate criticism and hatred but I do not.

I do not hate Barack Obama or Dennis Kucinich.

I do, however, think they are both disappointing as leaders and do poor service to the good ideas they represent.

Both men's ideas deserve better.

[mr715]

3. I think you made an incredibly powerful statement.

[mr715]

4. I think my issue is distortion, dishonesty, and nigh religious tone.

Obama ran from the middle, everyone knew he ran from the middle, and he is governing from the middle. He was NEVER my candidate and I was burned after the primaries. But he's making many first steps which are necessary to improve governance down the road.

Kucinich claims to be the one and only true progressive, true liberal. But he consistently votes against those interests, offering no alternative, no plan, and no explanation other than it does not go far enough. Rhetoric is not leadership, and obstinacy is not courage.

On top of all of this, Mr. Kucinich cultivates a sense of persecution and personality worship.

I have to admit, what turned me off to Kucinich was his supporters calling him Dennis. Its a bad reason, but its honest.

BUT, Obama is what he says he is. Kucinich is the diametric opposite to what he says he is. Kucinich gets a pass for going against Democrats, but Clinton, Edwards, Kerry, and others do not.

[daleanime]

8. 'From the middle'?

Looks fairly off on the right(not to be confused with the just) side to me.

[mr715]

9. No.

We have Sonia Sotomayor, stem cell research, an economic stimulus that went to MY paycheck, and an aggressive health care agenda.

He's a centrist to center-left.

[daleanime]

13. Patriot Act? Have any Bu$h era crimes...

been prosecuted? Habeas corpus? An entire school of teachers fired? He may be closer to the center then the GOP, but that's only because the repug's have been running the right edge of insanity.

And that 'aggressive health care agenda' is currently looking a a corp wet dream.


By todays standards Reagun would have made a fine Blue Dog.

[mr715]

14. Well...

The USA PATRIOT act is sucky.

Bush era crimes will not nor ever will be prosecuted. Obama has always been about moving forward, not constantly looking back.

I'm a teacher, and sometimes teachers need to be fired. Thats a discussion for a different day, but I believe you'll find that neither Obama nor his administration fired those teachers - it was a school board.

[daleanime]

15. True, it was the school board...

only included because Obama's has spoken in support and I find the continue push toward private schools to be a bit disturbing.

To move forward, you have to know where you've been. Or else your running in circles.


PS-I really appreciate the civil tone, thanksO8)

[JoePhilly]

5. The "L'affaire du Kucinich" is a proxy fight ...

Moderate Dems aren't always thrilled with Obama, but they are willing to accept a pragmatic approach, particularly given the level of polarization in the current political landscape.

Progressive Dems want Obama to move farther to the left and push through a more progressive agenda. And if he compromises, or attacks the issues in a different order or at a different pace, then they'd rather "stick to their principles", even if we get nothing.

Those two groups can be found on this site every day, bickering with each other.

Which the GOP LOVES. As we act like yippy dogs fighting over a bone, the GOP Dobermans are licking their chops, waiting for us to exhaust each other ... at which point they will take the bone.

And laugh in our faces.

(edit: typo)

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

7. Precisely. (As was "L'affaire Dreyfus")

[Jennicut]

10. This has always existed in the Dem party, at least since I have been involved in politics.

I admit to only really getting involved at 16, in 1992. But the Dem party seems to always be pulled toward the principals vs the pragmatism. The Rethugs usually march in lockstep, or else. The Dem leadership of years past always allowed these debates to happen. I don't think Dems are dysfunctional, we are healthier because we actually allow debate in our party. I think the Rethug party has tried to co-opt the teabaggers out of a fear of any debate going on within the party. it terrifies them. When do Dems ever totally agree on anything?

[JoePhilly]

12. We are like a herd of cats .... and we should debate internally ...

Our problem is that we don't stop there.

We beat the crap out of each other. And then when it comes time to do something, we've become paralyzed.

The GOP does some of this same thing ... but when its time to VOTE ... that is when they line up and take get as much as they can get at the time.

A great example is abortion. The far right wants Roe V Wade overturned YEARS AGO!! The GOP just had 6 years of total control, the White House, the Congress, and the Supreme Court. Roe V Wade still stands. The GOP leaders k now they can't over turn it ... yet each year they make slow and steady progress. Picking off states, so forth.

The understand the long game, they argue, decide how "much" they can get ... and then they take it.

We squabble and squabble ... fight among ourselves, and then get nothing.

[daleanime]

6. I hate to say...

that for too many of us(americans not DU) you may be right. It's a unsettling notion.

[yurbud]

11. I think you misinterpret support for Kucinich here. People don't support his positions

because they like him as a person. They like him as a person because they support his ideas.

Likewise, my perception of Obama soured to the degree that he has failed to take action against the rich crooks on Wall Street and in the banks and insurance companies.

Wasn't it George Washington who said we should have no permanent allies only permanent interests regarding foreign policy? The same should be true of voters and politicians.

[Oregone]

16. Great post

[freddie mertz]

17. Unrec and kick! to the top of the dungheap.