Here's the problem with Van Jones' Titanic Captain Obama metaphor - the rich still get the lifeboats

[leveymg]

Former White House green jobs "czar" Van Jones told progressive activists and bloggers yesterday at NetRoots 10 that, rather than bash President Obama for not changing the country as fast as they'd thought, they should maintain hope and help him with his agenda.

"I can't stand it. President Obama volunteered to be the captain of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg," Jones said at Netroots Nation while being interviewed by journalist Ari Melber of The Nation.

Well that's a nice metaphor, but think about it for a moment in the context of the Wall Street recovery and what continues to be the longest and deepest period of long-term joblessness, foreclosures, and structural decline in most small business sectors since the Great Depression.

Under "volunteer Titanic Captain" Obama, the rich are still getting all the lifeboats. Meanwhile, the 3rd Class passengers in steerage, and much of the Middle-Class on the 2nd class decks, are just as doomed as they were under White Star Line Capt. Bush.

Before the cheer-leading section makes metaphors into history lessons, they should consider what actually happened. A lot of people drowned unnecessarily because of bad decisions, both before and after that Iceberg loomed up in the mists.

[Lost4words]

1. B I N G O

[rfranklin]

2. Perfectly analyzed!

It's amazing to hear the Wall Street cheerleaders talking about "recovery" when there are no decent jobs available for about 20% of the working population.

[NJmaverick]

5. Only there is the element of believing the captain can produce more boats

[Exilednight]

9. If that is the case, then the boat is going to sink no matter what. n/t

[NJmaverick]

14. That's the real world, there is only so much that can be done

[awoke_in_2003]

48. never mind. nt

[lib_wit_it]

3. Sad, but true. Nicely reasoned. /m

[NJmaverick]

6. No it's not true, the captain can't make more life boats appear

[lib_wit_it]

10. Could he not have demanded them brought on board once he'd gained the commission, yet before setting

sail?

[NJmaverick]

13. Listen to the brilliant Van Jones

He talked about the President took over as captain AFTER the Titanic hit the Iceberg

[Political Tiger]

39. The boat was ALREADY sinking!

As Van Jones said, "President Obama volunteered to be the captain of the Titanic "after it hit the iceberg."

What do you expect? For him to sail this critically damaged ship back to the docks while it is sinking and have extra lifeboats brought on board?

[moksha]

73. So, rich and powerful first?

Life boats don't trickle down. Neither does wealth.

[NJmaverick]

4. In the real world the Captain can't make life boats appear out of thin air

You should consider the real world where the captain has only so many life boats.

[leveymg]

8. There was enough wood, rope, axes to build a dozen rafts. Just had to chop up all that lovely teak

including the First Class bar and drawing room fixtures. Just like you can't break up financial institutions that are "too big to fail", you can only refloat them with bags of money.

Besides, all the lifeboats weren't even launched, and they didn't even return to pick up the survivors floating in freezing water. Talk about bad management.

[NJmaverick]

12. That would just be wishful thinking

No way to get them in the water and there was neither the time, manpower or proper material.

[leveymg]

22. Ignore the cries of those in the water. Just row.

I know that you wouldn't be so heartless, but someone needs to question orders on the Titanic.

As Progressives, that is our proper role in this ongoing disaster. We haven't sunk yet, so do what you can.

[NJmaverick]

23. You hear the cries, but with out more life boats there is nothing that can be done

nothing more heart breaking than to see people in need, but not being able to help. Unfortunately that's the happens far too often in the world we live in.

[leveymg]

27. Some of the lifeboats were half-full. Particularly the ones launched first.

Wouldn't want to get the ladies dresses wet by hauling up drenched survivors.

[NJmaverick]

34. Yes, and as President(captain) Obama has filled all the boats

but he can't change the fact that there simply isn't enough

[Mimosa]

78. 1 billion a month for a war which will be lost...that's a cost we could do without

Not to mention the troops who will suffer lifelong injuries and need care.

Has anybody heard about any plans for a jobs program to employ the troops who will come come? Or are they meant to come home soon?

[TheKentuckian]

75. Then some of the 1st class passengers should have been allowed to drown

After all, they insist on a whole lifeboat to themselves and demanded the ship go full steam into an obviously deadly waters at huge risk for their own benefit in the first place.

1st class got the boats and everybody else got locked below deck or at best thrown a near empty can of shark repellent and an old bootstrap.

[bvar22]

35. You're not being sensible.

credit Tom Tomorrow

[tavalon]

64. Thank you

When I see a thread that has a million "ignored" comments, I usually know who it is but you just cinched it.

[MattSh]

21. The Titanic went down in under three hours...

How many years should we all wait until the government comes up with more lifeboats? This "thin air" is bullshit. By now they could have created a lot more...

[NJmaverick]

24. Thin air is the real world. It's unrealistic wishful thinking to believe

that after the iceberg was struck everyone could have been saved just by changing captains. Sure things can be run better, but you can un-hit the iceberg.

[moksha]

76. I think the metaphor has been tortured, but to go further with you:

You (and Van Jones) are suggesting the ship is going to sink. We can only save a certain amount (those that fit in the lifeboats which can't be newly built).

The OP is pointing out that saving Wall Street and bankers takes up space in the lifeboats. We should be filling the lifeboats with the workers, the people, wouldn't you agree?

[moksha]

74. We should fill the boats with employed workers. Not the rich and their wares.

That is the OPs point. How long should we play out this metaphor?

[bread_and_roses]

7. K & R here (n/t)

[seafan]

11. You have perfectly articulated the issue that so distresses the Left/Progressives.

“I can’t stand it,” Jones said of criticism of Obama from the Left. “President Obama volunteered to be the captain of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg.”---Van Jones, July 23, 2010

The problem is, 'the rich still get the lifeboats'. ---DU'er leveymg, July 24, 2010

Perfectly stated in six words, leveymg.

[NJmaverick]

15. You inadvertently articulated the real issue

The realist understand you can't produce life boats out of thin air, while the critics mistakenly believe the captain has the power to save everyone and gets angry because he can't.

[rug]

16. The realist wouldn't lock the door on steerage.

[NJmaverick]

17. Your comment indicates you don't understand the meaning of the word realist

[rug]

18. Your comment indicates locking poor people in to drown is eminently pragmatic.

[NJmaverick]

19. Really? That's how you see things? You are operating on pure belief

I can see why you are angry at the President. It seems pretty apparent that you had very high and unrealistic expectations that were impossible to meet. It's becoming more and more clear that the issue is not one of pragmatism vs idealism but one of realism vs wishful thinking.

[rug]

20. Actually, these are my expectations.

[nashville_brook]

26. life boats made of "thin air" (i.e. our taxes) were produced for the rich.

[bvar22]

36. + a bunch, and worth repeating!

"life boats made of "thin air" (i.e. our taxes) were produced for the rich."

[nashville_brook]

47. it's not like there's a shortage of largesse -- it's just a shortage to us.

[Enrique]

25. Such a good point you should email it to him

[e-mail]

He's an activist and i'm sure he knows all about class issues, I'd be curious how he'd respond to your great answer to him.

[leveymg]

28. I cross-posted it over at D-Kos. Sure someone will show it to him in Vegas.

I'm not picking on Van Jones or President Obama. Just making a point about economic policy.

[ProSense]

29. His point was spot on, and here's why

Jones: "rather than bash President Obama for not changing the country as fast as they'd thought, they should maintain hope and help him with his agenda."

We're three months away from an election and it seems that people are campaign against the President more than against Republicans.

People need to realize that at some point you have to act, and that was Jones' point. Take health care and this Daily Kos diary:

<...>

Did you know that nearly $1.9 billion would have been refunded back to consumers if the new health law was in effect in 2009?

Nearly $1.9 billion would have been refunded in 2009 by the six largest for-profit health insurance companies had the rules been in effect, according to an Oppenheimer & Co analysis cited in the report.

UnitedHealth (UNH.N) would have spent $867 million in refunds last year, the report said.

In a sign that the medical loss ratio is not improving for patients ahead of the implementation of the reforms, UnitedHealth announced this week that it spent 81.5 percent of premium revenue on medical care in the second quarter, a decrease from 83.6 percent a year earlier.

The purpose of the diary is to encourage people to stay engaged as the law becomes implemented.

That $1.9 billion or more is going to be still in play in 2011. From Health Care for America Now (PDF)

Starting in 2011, health plans must rebate to consumers and employers the difference between the minimums and actual spending on health care. If the new law had been on the books in 2009, the six largest for-profit health insurance companies would have been required to refund $1.9 billion in that year alone for spending too much on profits, CEO pay and administration, according to a report by a Wall Street analyst (see Table 1).2

That's a lot of money on the line. So after all the effort to demonize the bill, the trick is now to get people reengaged to ensure that its full effects and benefits to consumers are realized.

Jones was basically saying even if you believe the bill doesn't go far enough, do everything you can so that we don't lose momentum.




edited for clarity.

[EFerrari]

56. Anyone who prescribes "hope" at this moment is out of touch, at very best. n/t

[SunsetDreams]

30. I gave you an unrec and here is why:

The biggest reason, you quote Van Jones, and are talking about his article, but yet don't give a link. This doesn't give readers the ability to go and read the article for themselves. A reader can't see the context of the entire article.

2nd: There are multiple posts here, regarding Van Jones, that you could have replied to. If you don't give a link, my thoughts on this, is you are responding to those posts, and not a rebuttal to Van Jones argument.

While I respect your right to form your own opinion about what Van Jones said, at least link to his article.

[leveymg]

32. Here's the link - link is also in the article at the top of the rec list.

You didn't have to look very far. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07/van-jones-to-netroots-quit-beating-up-on-obama.php

Personally, I try to avoid the unrec button, except when encountering the clearly trollish. The thing can backfire on you.

[SunsetDreams]

33. thank you,

I don't see where you are talking about "the link is also in the article at the top of the rec list"

Unreccing for not providing a link in the original OP, doesn't backfire. I believe in giving credit where credit is due. You partially did that, by using quotation marks, and typing Van Jones. I guess I am just a stickler for that, because I learned my lesson in school. LOL

I never unrec for opinion unless it's over the top hyperbole, etc.

Just so you know, I would have recced you, for your opinion alone. It was a thoughtful one.

[ruggerson]

31. Obama, as a professional politician, pleaded, cajoled and campaigned for this job

He wasn't some Maharishi sitting in a cave and the masses came along and begged him to save the nation.

He's our employee - our public servant.

He asked us to hire him, because he really WANTED the job.

We have every right to both praise and criticize him as we see fit.

He ain't the boss.

We are.

[Overseas]

37. Economic justice is part of the change we need to keep pushing for.

Van didn't tell people to stop criticizing the president. He asked them not to give up on pushing for progressive change. And to understand that the president has done a lot already, even though we all know the country needs much more significant change.

I agree that appointing the people that caused the crash to dispense the lifeboats, in many areas, not just treasury, has been counterproductive.

But our Democratic majority didn't push hard enough for at least a Truth & Reconciliation Commission to expose Republican malfeasance on the very many levels it was evident in, from torture to reckless endangerment of our people through deregulation. We needed to take a detailed, sober look at modern Republican economic and military policies and how they had weakened our whole country.

I wanted impeachment of Bush & Cheney and we didn't even get that. Even though the Greedy Obstructionist Plutocrats had tried to impeach the last Democratic president for his sex life.

And even when our populace had been crushed after the Bush Crash-- had lost our little 401ks, were being evicted from our homes and couldn't afford health insurance anymore-- even with this solid evidence of the need for Medicare for All as the least the Democrats could do for a desperate people-- we didn't get a Democratic block pushing the president to go for Medicare for All, with or without Republicans.

If he said he wanted to go bipartisan, the Democratic block could have said-- fine, you are an inspiring speaker-- publicly speak out on the imperative to give people a basic compassionate safety net in these times of economic upheaval caused by the Bush Crash and Bush military occupations.

We have some outspoken progressive Democrats that I appreciate, but they've been overruled by the intimidation of mountains of campaign cash from the corporate sector, ruled by the merciless quarterly profits that dictate cheap & dirty legislation.

The power of all that cash is much greater than I had imagined.

[Mimosa]

79. Overseas, you have nailed it

When the Byzantine, messy health insurance mandate bill was being concocted the President remained quite silent about the details. He didn't come out and push for a plan which would benefit the people. He campaigned against Hillary Clinton on mandates. He stood for a public option as late as July 2008, and some of us were dumb enough to believe he had strong convictions on an issue which is nearly life and death for many!

And nothing in this boondoggle will keep policies premium prices from going up based upon age.Even other 'pragmatic, sensible' countries who have health care plans using a combo of private insureres and public funding when needed don't do it that way. And to TAX GOOD health insurance policies -unlike the crap I have which costs $850 a month will make the rest sink to the bottom.

Blue Cross/Blue Shield policies sold to individuals to NOT ever even partly cover psychological counseling or therapy, even if related to mental distress caused by a chronic illness. And nothing in that piece of seel-out legislation will make the insurance companies do it. Say you have MS, Lou Gehrig's or some kind of distressing physical condition like psoriasis or elephant man's diseases. These all can cause people deep depression and make them want to kill themselves.

There will be nothing to make people able to access mental health services even iff they are paying huge premiums for individual policies. Face it, we got screwed and people will drop insurance when they can't afford it. Maybe they'll pay a fine. But we the suckers who are of an age where we've seen friends and relaives have heart attacks will hang on to overpriced policies out of fear of losing our homes. Yet nothing in the legislation now or in 2014 will make us more secure. The insurance and pharma corporartions were protected, even catered to in many ways.

People see through it and we don't like what we're seeing. Some of us worked VERY hard to elect Obama. We put our hearts, souls and what money we could into the campaign.

No, we didn't believe in miracles, we didn't expect them. We're tired of hearing that calumny.

[Political Tiger]

38. Here's the problem with YOUR metaphor.

You're missing the key word in Van Jones metaphor: ""I can't stand it. President Obama volunteered to be the captain of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg."

"after it hit the iceberg."

Obama didn't design the boat, Obama didn't build the boat, he didn't launch the boat nor did it run it into the iceberg!

Yet now, not even half-way into his first term, he is expected to save the boat and all the passengers AFTER it has already started sinking!

And while he's going back in time saving a sinking ship in the North Atlantic, he's expected to put on a swim suit and dive down to the bottom of the gulf to plug an oil leak in Gulf of Mexico!

And he's supposed to do all this while battling against the right, conservative dems and the far left....and have it all done before he even reaches the halfway mark into his first term!

Sorry, but it's damn well past time people start understanding Obama is just one man, a human being, an imperfect human being, and not a God, and not a magician and not a superhero!

The problem is not with Obama, the problem is with certain people having an unrealistic view of reality!

[azmouse]

40. Very well said!

:thumbsup:

[leveymg]

41. Obama's "battling against the far left"? Oh, brother. If only there was a politically significant

Far Left for Obama to contend with.

The Far Left stopped being a significant force within the Democratic Party in 1941. Nice, colorful imagery about Aquaman Obama swimming down to plug the hole in the ocean with his super nuclear powers! BLAM! BLAST! POW!

[Political Tiger]

43. Too bad you missed the point of my post.

I'll try again:

You're missing the key word in Van Jones metaphor: ""I can't stand it. President Obama volunteered to be the captain of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg."

"after it hit the iceberg."

Obama didn't design the boat, Obama didn't build the boat, he didn't launch the boat nor did it run it into the iceberg!

Yet now, not even half-way into his first term, he is expected to save the boat and all the passengers AFTER it has already started sinking!

<.....>

Sorry, but it's damn well past time people start understanding Obama is just one man, a human being, an imperfect human being, and not a God, and not a magician and not a superhero!

The problem is not with Obama, the problem is with certain people having an unrealistic view of reality!

Care to reply to that part?

[jenmito]

44. K&R this post! n/t

[EFerrari]

53. Nope. The lifeboats were also handed out AFTER the ice berg was struck.

You may want to rethink the OP because you're not following the metaphor.

[Political Tiger]

58. LOL! Yes, lifeboats usually aren't used until they are needed.

I mean, it wouldn't make sense to hand out the lifeboats BEFORE the ship hit the iceberg, now would it? Or are you saying you really don't understand the fact that there were not enough lifeboats for all the passengers on the Titanic BEFORE it ever set sail?

[LostinVA]

67. The HUGE majority of people who died were poor and lower class

They were kept locked below while people with money were saved, and were "allowed" to drown like rats, with no hope of being saved. Only a few Third Class men were saved, and only ONE third class woman made it to a collapsed lifeboat.

[LostinVA]

66. They weren't handed out at all until after the iceberg were hit

Nor were people told to put on lifevests.

And, to go forward with the OPs metaphor: the rich were told to go to the lifeboats and the open decks, and the poor were LOCKED IN below and refuses to be allowed to try and get to safety, even after the boat was sinking.

[SunsetDreams]

59. agree with this post

[KakistocracyHater]

65. no-the PROBLEM is Obama gave up Public Option without even fighting 4 it

he voluntarily added in the Stupak woman-hating bit into the health bill.......Obama has rolled over instantly without standing up "for us"-the opposite of 'Campaign Mode Obama'

[Mimosa]

80. ^ YES! ^ n/t

[moksha]

77. If we embrace the "country as the titanic" metaphor and that we've

already hit the iceberg, we might as well give up. It really isn't a metaphor worth defending. Because the argument becomes who is worthy to be saved. Only some will survive, and you have to choose.

It really is a poor metaphor for the country and I wouldn't think the WH would care for it.

[slipslidingaway]

42. knr nt

[BlueIdaho]

45. Is torturing metphores against the Geneva Convention? nt.

[awoke_in_2003]

50. it doesn't matter...

the Geneva Convention is held as "quaint" by the former and current administrations.

[EFerrari]

54. Misspelling them might be!

[BlueIdaho]

57. Yes, I think you are right!

Thanks for the catch... ;>);

[tranche]

46. Hair pullers and the hysterical jumped ship. The misguided activists are all wet.

That's the way I see the Titanic.

[treestar]

49. Proudly unrec'd; mixed metaphor

The ship is the whole country to be saved as a whole.

[EFerrari]

55. LOL. Are you suggesting Jones says the Titanic can be saved?

:rofl:

[tavalon]

63. You have too many wholes in your theory

[boppers]

51. road workers and ditch diggers are the rich!

the unemployed are the rich!
women getting lesser pay are the rich!
college students are the rich!

Uhm, no.

[EFerrari]

52. Exactly. nt

[Ignis]

60. "MAESTRO! A little sinking music, please!"

[boppers]

61. Ewoks aren't celebrating.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=387750&mesg_id=387750

[tavalon]

62. Fabulous explanation!

Quite a reminder that quaint analogies can sometimes turn around and bite one in the ass.

[quaker bill]

68. The land of milk and honey

was in our reach, if only President Obama had let the financial system supporting western industrialized countries collapse.

[RBInMaine]

69. Bitch bitch bitch bitch...does it ever end? Do have a single positive thing to say?

[hulka38]

72. Right, keep quiet and let 'em row away safely into the night. n/t.

[girl gone mad]

82. Shut up and drown already!

Sheesh. So ungrateful.

[DCBob]

70. You misunderstood.. there is a different ending... Captain Obama has kept the ship from sinking..

and so far we are all "surviving"... until further repairs can be made.

[girl gone mad]

81. The ship is still sinking.

The middle class is not surviving.

http://www.businessinsider.com/22-statistics-that-prove-the-middle-class-is-being-systematically-wiped-out-of-existence-in-america-2010-7#83-percent-of-all-us-stocks-are-in-the-hands-of-1-percent-of-the-people-1#ixzz0tmn4EiOc

[KoKo]

71. Good Read MG...thanks!

:kick: