Can't govern or win as a liberal? Pish Tosh.

[Armstead]

Why have I been spouting off about Obams's push to the "center"?

I think a fatal, and unnecessary, achilles heel on our side of the spectrum is this ongoing underlying assumption that liberal policies and politicians can't win elections or gain the support of the population. That's what I find most frustrating about Obama, despite the things about him that I admire and agree with.

Many things that are labeled as "left" or "too liberal for the mainstream" could be very mainstream and popular if we'd stop assuming otherwise. They are both common decency and common sense and in the self-interest of the majority of the population.

But we keep undercutting our beliefs (unlike conservatives) and doing tortuous gyrations to water them down or abandon them.

To those who say the public isn't ready, I would say they have been tried in the past -- and succeeded

A public option? Medicare.

Anti-trust busting of the corporate monopolies? Been done.

Labor protections? Media regulation?

Etc.

We've been there, done that and more.

The problem is that over the last 30 years or so we got spooked (or corrupted) and both allowed the Corporate CONservative GOP to roll things backward and/or prevented us from trying.

So actual liberal/progressive progress is not a novel concept. We've just forgotten and become weenies.

[MrSlayer]

1. "They" do not want policies that benefit the people.

And "They" include President Obama and most of the elected representatives in "our" party. The game is rigged and what the People want does not matter. In order to govern from the left you have to elect people from the left and "they" just won't allow it.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

5. Olbermann-- Newton Minow's Worst Fears Play Out - Democratic Underground

OH MISTEER OBAMA. PLEASE DON'T LET THE REPULSIVES SEDUCE YOU TO THE CENTER......

OUR NATION IS LEFT OF CENTER...

[ClassWarrior]

12. Huh?

:crazy:

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

31. .

[Echotrail]

2. True. And there's a dire need to call BS that is now absent

Every single time the GOP starts talking "death panels" and the broken Social Security system and "socialism" and such, just stand stand by your previously stated convictions. Don't convert into something else after getting what you always fought for!

[ProSense]

3. Everyone is engaging in redefine policies

If people want to view health care reform and Wall Street reform as a centrist agenda, that's on them.

Maybe it will redefine the center to include policies like these and these:

Obama signs veterans, caregivers legislation

Health Reform Expands Medicaid Coverage For People with Disabilities

Expand Pell grants for low-income students

Providing Free Preventive Care for Seniors.

Is there a problem with labeling these policies centrist and center right?

What's the real concern?

[Armstead]

4. Unfortunately, centrist has become code for Corporate Conservatism

The concept of centrism has been hijacked It has been made into a support of the corporate status quo.

The political "center" is a meaningless term, because everyone defines their beliefs as being in the center.

Centrism also has no real definition. Conservatism is a defined set of basic principles and an approach to governance....Likewise liberalism (or progressive) is based on a basic set of values and an approach to governance and policy.

A more accurate distinction than "centrist" is moderate. That is a better way to distinguish degrees of either liberalism or conservatism.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

6. BINGO

[ProSense]

15. "Centrism also has no real definition."

Right, so what's the concern?

Again: Is the concern that people are labeling these policies centrist and center right?

If "centrism also has no real definition," does labeling the policies linked to above "centrist" mean they're part of the "corporate status quo"?

[Armstead]

16. The common definition today is not an accurate one

The Corporations, Sell-Out politicians and their media mouthpieces use the term "centrist" to mean that a policy or politician is really conservative and in favor of the corporate agenda.

Centrist is used as a smokestream for that. If a politician darers to challenge such assumptions as "outsourcing is beneficial for American competitiveness and will help add domestic jobs" he or she is branded as a "leftist" who has to move to the "center."

That's a straightjacket that is based o false advertising.

It has also muddied the water of true political discourse. If a policy, for example, embodies liberal principles on a mild basis, it is moderate liberal.Likewise, if a policy reflects the basis of conservatism in a mild way it is moderate conservative. If it has elements of both it is simply moderate.

Put more simply, a majority of Americans may be more moderate than ultra-liberals or progressives, but that does not automatically mean they support policies that benefit corporate elites at the expense of the middle and working class.

[ProSense]

17. Why

can't you address the points, specifically. Are those centrist, center right or corporate status quo policies?

[ClassWarrior]

21. Policy isn't messaging, and messaging isn't policy, Mark, any more than...

...an engine is a drive train or a drive train is an engine. But you need 'em both to make the car go.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

22. Yes, many of the initiatives that the Prez saw passed ARE...

...progressive. But he COULD see many more progressive policies passed - and many more of the big initiatives like DADT - if he quit adopting "centrist" (i.e., GOP) frames and started advancing progressive ones.

Are the policies you keep linking good enough for you? Or do you want more if more is possible?

Because more IS possible.

NGU.

[Armstead]

25. Those are basically liberal policies

They fall in the general realm of liberal policies. Which proves my point.

[ClassWarrior]

29. +1

NGU.

[Hello_Kitty]

18. I agree.

I know many people who tell me they are centrist but when I press them for specific positions they hold that are centrist there aren't any.

[ClassWarrior]

28. Centrism is a myth, Kitty. Please read this and share it with your...

..."centrist" friends:

No Center, No Centrists
by George Lakoff

"Centrism" is the creation of an inaccurate self-serving metaphor, and it is time to bury it.

There is no left to right linear spectrum in the American political life. There are two systems of values and modes of thought -- call them progressive and conservative (or nurturant and strict, as I have). There are total progressives, who use a progressive mode of thought on all issues. And total conservatives. And there are lots of folks who are what I've called "biconceptuals": progressive on certain issue areas and conservative on others. But they don't form a linear scale. They are all over the place: progressive on domestic policy, conservative on foreign policy; conservative on economic policy, progressive on foreign policy and social issues; conservative on religion, but progressive on social issues and foreign policy; and on and on. No linear scale. No single set of values defining a "center." Indeed many of such folks are not moderate in their views; they can be quite passionate about both their progressive and conservative views.

Barack Obama has it right: Get rid of the very idea of the right and the left and the center. American ideas are fundamentally progressive ideas -- the ideas this country was founded on and that carry forth that spirit. Progressives care about people and the earth, and act with responsibility and strength on that care...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/george-lakoff/no-center-no-centrists_b_60419.html

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

10. The real concern is how it's framed. Do some reading, Mark.

Start with anything by Professor George Lakoff.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

11. I might add that those accomplishments are excellent. Want to have more like that?

Then our side needs to stop apologizing, and take a stand as the keepers of the best of American values, as Armstead said.

NGU.

[Clio the Leo]

7. There are at least 289 members of Congress who have NO desire for more liberal policies...

.... and more than that, depending on the policy in question.

"Common decency and common sense" is not a trait they admire.

But perhaps Obama/Dems could get more done if they weren't "weenies." If they WANTED it more. Reminds me of that SNL skit of Palin telling Clinton she didn't "want" the nomination badly enough.

[woo me with science]

8. With regard to health insurance reform. the polls supported your point.

People were massively against the corporate bill we got.

They were massively in favor of a public option.

[ClassWarrior]

13. Proof positive.

NGU.

[ProSense]

14. Not accurate

November: Turns out that most Americans like most of the health care law.

Friday:

<...>

The internals of today's New York Times/CBS poll dramatize this in perhaps the clearest terms yet.

The poll first asked people a straight-up question -- should we do away with the law completely, or let it stand -- and found that 40 percent favor repeal, versus 48 percent who want to leave it as is. That near-split mirrors virtually all other polls that asked the question this way -- they all find some solid support for repeal.

But here's where it gets interesting. The NYT/CBS poll then asked the pro-repeal camp whether they want to "repeal all of the health care law, or only certain parts of it." Suddenly the number who favor full repeal drops to 20 percent -- one-fifth -- while 18 percent peel off and say they want to repeal "certain parts."

It gets even better. The poll then asked people who support repeal an open-ended question: Which parts of the law do you want done away with? The number who said "everything" drops again, this tiime to eight percent. Eleven percent want the individual mandate repealed. But guess what? The number who called for repeal of other key individual items in the bill -- the pre-existing conditions piece; the coverage for people up to age 26; and so on -- was consistently one percent or less for each of them.

link

[ClassWarrior]

20. The poster is obviously talking about before it was passed.

NGU.

[woo me with science]

24. Thank you. nt

[ClassWarrior]

9. Keep spouting. It's the truth!

NGU.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krawhitham]

23. OK I'll play, Who was the last "ragging liberal" elected president?

[Armstead]

26. I don;t know about ragging liberal, or even raging liberal, but....

LBJ was a liberal, except for his Vietnam fuckup.

FDR....Harry Truman was a liberal in certain ways.

Even Eisenhower and Nixon were liberal in many ways by today's standards.

[ClassWarrior]

30. When's the last time a liberal was allowed to be nominated? Arm's probably right.

LBJ. Of course, he was the incumbent in '64.

NGU.

[southernyankeebelle]

27. Until the press stops getting the corporate welfare we will not get anywhere.

[mkultra]

32. Pish Posh

lol

[Armstead]

33. It's Pish Tosh dammit

Maybe not.....Oh do I have to go to Google?

;(