O'Donnell just had an outstanding discussion on Cain, race & civil rights w/Sharpton, Harris-Perry

[Empowerer]

and Goldie Taylor.

The discussion was a follow-up to O'Donnell's interview last night with Herman Cain. Among other things, O'Donnell asked very probing questions of Cain about why he was not involved in the civil rights movement while he was in college. The response to the interview has apparently been rather heated, to say the least - with Cain, Limbaugh and other conservatives blasting O'Donnell for "telling Cain how to be a black man."

On the other hand, some people on the liberal side of the aisle, white and black, have questioned whether O'Donnell held Cain to a standard that he would not hold a similarly situated white politician, assuming that he had a greater obligation to have participated in the civil rights movement than a white politician of the same age would have had.

It was an excellent example of how these conversations can be had - it was frank, open and respectful. Lawrence O'Donnell, to his great credit, sought out his guests' opinions, listened to their points of view, and allowed himself to be challenged without any defensiveness, even though the guests were very candid and didn't cut him a break. Although the three guests were in general agreement, they had different perspectives that were very interesting and informative. I think everyone involved in the conversation learned a great deal and everyone watching likely did, too.

I hope people will be able to see a video of it soon - if I find a clip, I will post it. It was a great thing to see and could be very instructive to all of us about how these kinds of conversations can move forward.

[Enrique]

1. i was wondering what you thought of how Cain is discussed here at DU

some of it strikes me as arguably racist. Some people, it seems the only thing they know about Cain is that hes black.

[Empowerer]

3. I have mixed feelings about it since the reaction to him here varies widely

And some of the comments are very, troubling, as you have noted. But, as we've seen quite often here, even the suggestion that some DUers/liberals are ever racially insensitive unleashes a firestorm that results in little productive discussion.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

12. YOU GOT IT!!!! +1,000,000!!!!!n/t

[hlthe2b]

4. Actually, I think DUers as a group know a lot about Cain...

It is not as though it is difficult...He hasn't exactly been secretive about his history, philosophy, public stances. Further, I'd bet that more people on DU have watched all or part of the multiple Republican debates--something that you would be hard pressed to find among the American public. I see a great many threads that discuss his bio, as well as the controversial comments he has made. I have found little about Cain that is particularly commendable, though I do respect him for his success. His opportunism and denigration of the poor, Muslims, Latinos, and other African Americans who happen to be liberal/progressive, however, is worthy of all the contempt I see anyone her launch against him. Just as they do for equally justifiable reasons against Santorum or Bachmann or Perry or any of the others.

Why, pray tell, do you think that it is racism?

[Empowerer]

5. You're assuming that everyone is approaching Cain the way you do

As I said, the reaction to him varies - as do many things on DU since everyone doesn't come at things the same way or view others the same way. While you are obviously very informed, there are some here who are not and have made comments about him that I find very troubling.

DU is a hodgepodge. Some people think like you do, some people don't. Some are intelligent and well-informed. Some are ignorant. Some people are open-minded. Some are narrow-minded. And some are downright bigots.

Just like out in the real world.

[Enrique]

6. i agree, im talking about a few specific posts

the vast majority of discussion of Cain is just as you say, a small minority of it to me seems different, seems focused on his race.

And even those posts its hard to tell, which is why I said arguably.

[golfguru]

13. Cain grew up in Georgia in 1950's & 1960's..amazing success

considering that was a very bad period for blacks. Racial prejudice was rampant. Cain had to attend a Negro college. Probably the only option he had. Even
more difficult must have been his attempt to rise to the top in big corporations. I have worked in small & big corporations, and prejudice was worse in larger corporations before 1976. I am an immigrant to this country with brown skin color, and there was plenty of resentment towards me from white counterparts when I received a promotion based on my work. So I can imagine what Cain went through.

I do not necessarily agree with Cain's agenda, but I commend his success in a very difficult situation.

[Supersedeas]

14. part of that story is what is so attractive to some Republicans

[Tom Ripley]

22. And that story is woven from lies (please see my post below)

[Empowerer]

16. Al Sharpton made an excellent point in response to this tonight

He noted that Cain brags about how "America" made it possible for him to succeed - yet he sneers at those who pushed and prodded and fought for America to change so that he could do what he did.

He is a pure hypocrite - he benefitted tremendously from the civil rights movement yet he not only won't give it credit for his success.

[golfguru]

18. And you are absolutely right on the civil rights issue, however

All 50 million non-whites had the same opportunity to succeed and that includes me. I did OK but not in the same league as Cain. So I still have to give him some credit. I am a fair minded person. I will give credit to any one who does something very difficult to accomplish.

[BlueMTexpat]

25. I find Cain exactly like all those whose attitude is: "I got mine

so the heck with the rest of you," with the implication that there must be something wrong with anyone who hasn't become a millionnaire. To me, that fatuous and self-righteous attitude is so rampant among Republicans that race doesn't even factor in. Yes, Cain's success was no doubt made much more difficult simply by the color of his skin. But when he won't even acknowledge that others were also very instrumental in helping him to achieve that success, he loses me entirely.

As Elizabeth Warren points out so well, NONE of these so-called "self-made" successes got successful without a lot of help from the education, infrastructure, security and other facilities that are publicly financed, as well as from any employees who worked their hearts out for that success as well. None of those facilities or trained employees would have been there at all had there not been a LOT of courageous people over the years who fought very hard to get public financing for education, infrastructure, security, etc. so that we ALL can benefit, not merely the select few who can afford to pay for it.

[r0nr0ntaiwan]

32. I disagree

I'm not sure if I want Cain to be an option for POTUS, but at least he seems to be in favor of everyone having the opportunity to be rich. When people like Buffet speak in favor of higher taxes, I get the feeling that he's saying "to heck with the rest of you, 'cause I got mine." Why? Because he's already made his billions, yet he's not calling for increases in capital gains taxes. He's calling for increases in income taxes. Buffet makes his money, mostly, from capital gains taxes. So, he's in favor of keeping his own tax rates low, while raising taxes on anyone wanting to be more like him.

[BlueMTexpat]

33. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Heartily. Here Sharpton has it right.

But I have no doubt that Cain is merely the latest flavor of the month - or week. Things seem to happen pretty fast with this group. One could almost get whiplash from the zigs and zags as the frantic search continues.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Ripley]

21. However, he CERTAINLY lies about one of his "struggles"

He claims that he "had" to go to Morehouse because the University of Georgia would not let him in.
Hmmmm...the first black students were admitted to UGA in 1961.
Herman Cain was only 16 years old at the time. Hmmm...

[golfguru]

26. May be U of Georgia had higher grade point requirements

than what Herman Cain had achieved in high school?
I do not know what the requirements were in those years. May be he never tried to get in! I am taking his word that he could'nt get in but he did not elaborate as to why.

[Empowerer]

27. Not to defend him, but although UGA first admitted 2 blacks in 1961,

it still actively discriminated against blacks thereafter.

[Tom Ripley]

31. That should not have been a problem for Herman (Racism is no Excuse) Cain

[elleng]

2. Yes; glad he did that.

He received flak + praise, and responded well by opening the matter up for an intelligent discussion.

[Number23]

7. Just saw a snippet in this article about the interview in The Atlantic

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/10/lawrence-odonnells-offensive-interview-with-herman-cain/246328/

Personally, I think LO's questions are valid ones. And Cain's answers are very telling.

[Empowerer]

8. I thought his questions were valid, too - but I thought MHP's point was well-taken

Like her, I felt a little uncomfortable hearing him ask the questions because white politicians AREN'T asked similar questions. I loved that she told him that and that he was open to hearing it. And I really loved that, at the end of the discussion, they all asked him to be sure to ask that same question of every politician he interviews who came of age during that time.

It was great.

[Supersedeas]

15. I agree and thanks for the link.

[krawhitham]

9. Nice to see hard hitting questions are now considered "character assassination"

CNN's John King labeled the interview a "character assassination" that will help Cain more than hurt him: "Perhaps the most detestable media character assassination I have seen in a very long time

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/lawrence-odonnell-herman-cain-msnbc-245750


WTF is wrong with the world. I remember when journalists were well you know journalists not just media talking heads. Back in the day this interview would have been seen as tame and normal

[Empowerer]

10. Interesting

[tishaLA]

24. The Hollywood Reporter has it wrong, though

It's not John King who says it was "character assassination," but Erik Erikson writing on King's show blog: http://johnkingusa.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/07/be-in-the-know-todays-political-bullet-points-324/

It doesn't surprise me that Erikson feels that way, and that redstate.com may have been up in arms about it. Nor would it surprise me if King himself felt that way, but THR was lazy and inaccurate in its reporting.

I found the interview enlightening, but found myself agreeing mostly with Melissa Harris-Perry, as I usually do.

[Empowerer]

11. Here's a clip of the second half of the segment

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/herman-cain-and-the-civil-rights-movement/6aevaop?from=

[Skip Intro]

17. Cable-less for over a year now, I only saw LO's interview with HC today, and I must say, LO was a

bit of an asshole. I watched the video with a libertarian friend of mine and I cringed at parts of it. Really, LO was out of line. Could you imagine a fox "news" anchor putting similar questions to Obama?

I haven't seen the follow up you're talking about in this thread, but I gotta tell ya, I was quick to distance myself from LO to my friend today.

[demgrrrll]

19. I Like LO but I was not fond of this interview.

[Empowerer]

20. What didn't you like about it?

[demgrrrll]

23. It was a visceral gut response. I was uncomfortable which

does not mean that LO was necessarily in the wrong. It is something I will need to analyze. There is a part of me that on an emotional level likes Herman Cains fighting spirit. That does not mean I would vote for him, I do not believe that I would but I like his spirit in some sense. I have not seen the panel discussion that you are writing about but I would love to and will look for the vid on you tube or perhaps here at DU. To clarify I am not talking about liking Herman Cains positions, I do not but there is something there that is drawing people to support him and I think it is the perception that he is a of a fighter of some sort, that is what Republicans seem to like I think. I think LO gave him an opportunity to play to the Republican base. I do agree with Reverend Sharptons quotes. I just love him and I think he is right about his assessment of Cain's positions.

[Empowerer]

28. Interesting. Thanks.

I think a lot of people, including me, felt like you did.

I was uncomfortable with it, too, although I don't think he did anything wrong. But history and experience caused me to have a similarly visceral response to seeing a black man raked over the coals by a white man about whether and why he participated in the civil rights movement. Prof. Harris-Perry had the same reaction, partly because, as she said, she's never seen a white politicians held to the same standard. I appreciated that all three of the panelists urged O'Donnell to raise the same questions of white candidates.

This is an important point. I often think about this when President Obama is called upon to "lead a conversation on race"- and then criticized for not doing so when white presidents were never expected to do so. That's one of those extra jobs that black folks are asked to take on that white folks are given a pass on. It's as if blacks are expected to do this because, as blacks, we have a race and therefore must lead on issues of race, while white people have no race. They're just people and, thus, have no obligation to speak up or lead on race. When white people DO speak up or lead on race, they get "extra credit" as if they've done something wonderful and special, while black people get no extra credit for doing it - it's just what we're expected to do - and we get demerits if we DON'T do it.

This double standard is likely one of the reasons for the feeling of discomfort that many people felt in watching O'Donnell's interview of Cain. I really appreciated that he was open to listening to the criticism without any defensiveness (or whining "STOP CALLING ME A RACIST!!!") and seemed willing to learn and do better moving forward.

[Supersedeas]

29. I like him much less because of this interview

[Empowerer]

30. Why is that?

[Supersedeas]

35. For many of the same reasons you cite.

I don't fault Cain for not participating in the civil rights movement. People made choices then and Cain made his. I'm not mad at him for it. Many of his choices proved to be a benefit to his working class family in Atlanta.

Unlike you, I would have felt the same discomfort if O'Donnell had grilled a white candidate about their participation in the civil rights movement--for many of the same reasons that you cite above. So, the positives that you see in O'Donnell's lack of 'defensiveness' ring hollow to me, since the 'coal raking' that you find discomfort in is as misplaced with Cain as it is with any other candidate--black or white.