Anyone just hear that tribute on NPR? Wife telling the story of her husband calling from WTC on 9/11

[Skinner]

He was on 100-something floor, looking for a way out. But there was no escape. They stayed on the phone together until she heard a terrible cracking sound. And then the phone went dead. I'm sitting here in my car with tears in my eyes.

Fuck bin Laden. Really. Fuck that guy.

[Dappleganger]

1. My thoughts exactly.

May he rot in hell.

[madaboutharry]

2. I feel the same way.

I can not bring myself to care whether or not bin laden had a gun or not. I'm glad they shot him.

[rbixby]

11. Agreed!

And gun or not, I think that those SEALs would have had a hard time not being trigger happy once they saw that guy. For someone who caused so much pain and suffering to so many people, not only on 9/11 but also the Cole bombing, the embassy bombings, etc etc, it would be tough for someone on a special forces team not to want some retribution. Though the goal may have been 'kill or capture', it would have been very, very unlikely that he would have made it out of the situation alive, whether at his own hand or at the hands of american soldiers.
While I don't celebrate death, I could understand any soldier who took the 'kill' route instead of the 'capture' one.

[xxqqqzme]

54. Simple - Live by the sword - die by the sword

Is that the bible? or Shakespeare?

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[SDuderstadt]

76. That is absolute...

bullshit.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robinlynne]

108. of all the killing that goes on in this world, I dont find this particular killing worthy

of real caring. If you want to talk about all the innocent children dying all over the world, I'm with you. but Bin Laden, not. HE did not make this world a better place.

[Hissyspit]

105. It's not about bin Laden.

It's about US. Who WE are and how WE behave and what we stand for.

Why is that so hard to understand?

[sufrommich]

3. Yeah, these who profess outrage over the way we took out

Bin Ladin have short memories.

[H2O Man]

4. recommended.

I've heard that tape before.

[proud patriot]

5. My husband and I completely agree

[pintobean]

6. Maybe some sea creature is doing that right now. n/t

[kag]

62. You made me laugh through my tears! n/t

[pipi_k]

7. I have no pity...

for anyone who was involved in perpetrating the tragedies of that day.

Haven't heard that phone call, and I'm not even sure I would want to. My heart would just break into a thousand pieces and the nightmares would haunt me for a long time.


I'm still spooked out by seeing airplanes fly overhead. I have dreams where they fall out of the sky and crash in my yard. And I imagine what it must have felt like to be standing on the edge of the windowsill wondering which death would be easier...burning, or plunging to the ground to end up a mass of blood and crushed bones.


Anybody who wants to get all saintly about how OBL died...well...good.

I'm not a saint. I don't revel in his death, but I have no pity for how, when, or where it happened.

[bullwinkle428]

8. The epilogue couldn't have been more tragic - she ended up dying

in that Continental plane crash just outside of Buffalo, NY two years ago, on the way there to celebrate her late husband's birthday. :(

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/05/135995930/he-wanted-me-to-live-a-full-life

[Tuesday Afternoon]

9. Skinner, I know you to be an honorable, just and merciful man and I totally

understand how you feel. It is a raw, powerful, human emotion. I don't think anyone should fault us for our feelings. It is done and over and he knew what he had started and how it would end. So yeah. Fuck him. The world is a better place with him gone.

[blondeatlast]

10. What you said. nt

[steve2470]

12. What you said nt

[The Blue Flower]

13. My only reason for wanting the photo released

I would want the photo released only so that the last image the world has of him (don't even want to use his name) would be how his life ended after all the death he was responsible for. Just like I'm glad history will always record that it was President Obama who got him and not little boots. Both OBL and w had that self-satisfied smirk, and I'm glad at least one of them is permanently gone.

[KharmaTrain]

14. Television Technicians as well...

Atop the North Tower was the transmitting facilities of every major NYC TV station. In those rooms on the 103rd Floor were technicians who were watching the building they were in burning. Surely they could hear the panic and smell the fire but they remained at their controls to make sure the stations stayed on the air (most channels had no back-up)



This was the image that was frozen on the screen as the tower collapsed with the engineers still at work. Six engineers perished that day.

As you say...Fuck bin Laden and I'm grateful this murderer has been dealt with.

[Wickerman]

34. wow

thanks for that. The modern day equivalent of "The band played on."

[Snoutport]

118. :0(

[Swede]

15. He got what was coming to him.

Good riddance.

[guitar man]

16. Yeah, heard it on the drive into work

He was on the 105th floor and couldn't find a way down. Her description of the call was heart wrenching. :cry:

[Sal Minella]

23. And after the noise of the "avalanche" stopped she sat with the

phone pressed to her chest.

And then she didn't want to go to sleep, so she could keep thinking, "I talked to him today."

I asked him if it hurt to breathe, and he said, "No." He loved me enough to lie.

One of the more searing things I've ever heard on NPR.

[pipi_k]

41. OMG I shouldn't have read that....

"He loved me enough to lie"


I'm choked up and on the verge of tears here... :(



You know, one of the odd things about that day was that, taken as a whole, the sheer number of victims was so overwhelming that it was hard for me to feel anything much but horror at the act itself.

Then the individual stories started to come out.

And that's when the real impact of human suffering hit me. One person's story can be so painful.

[uponit7771]

44. omg me neither, ....tear jerker alert

[Sal Minella]

45. Exactly.

In the interview segment, she sounds like a lovely woman, and listening to her, I was thinking how nice it would be to have her living next door.

And then we were told how long ago the interview was recorded, and told that she died in a plane crash two years ago. Bottom dropped out of something I didn't even know I had.

[aquart]

150. It looked like a movie special effect.

Took a while to realize it was mass murder. It didn't penetrate until I was standing on a blood line at Saint Vincent's and the person next to me described watching through a telescope as people jumped from the towers. And what he saw and I didn't seared into my mind forever.

I will never forgive bin Laden for those jumpers. That entitled rich boy piece of shit. Someone tried to tell me it wasn't the money that influenced him, but what he saw done to his country. WTF did we do to Saudi Arabia? Touch its sand? Lots of people see lots of things, BUT HE HAD THE MONEY TO MAKE HIS FANTASIES REAL.

Like the Koch brothers.

These fortunes create monsters.

[myrna minx]

47. .

:cry:

[Plucketeer]

55. That was the part that got me!

Not wanting to go to sleep and let go of their last moments "together". Truly powerful stuff.

[nc4bo]

17. Exactly the way I feel. F that bastard.

Don't give a damn how they got him.

[nc4bo]

18. I want to add that this is the way it should have been done on #43's watch.

It's not that we lacked the capability to make it so.

[virgogal]

96. If this had been done on Bush's watch he would have been pilloried.

[nc4bo]

107. I'd have thought it would make him what he always wanted to be; an American hero?

He'd be idolized or maybe Bush had fantasies of securing Iraq's oil in mind. Maybe he thought that would make him an even bigger hero than catching OBL?

[virgogal]

123. He would have been pilloried for giving the order that led to the

killing of an unarmed man.

No way would he have been called an American hero.

[nc4bo]

124. I guess we'll just have to disagree. nt

[bettyellen]

136. are you kidding me? he'd be cashing in on it somehow and gloating like hell. the MSM would lap it up

[WinkyDink]

155. Are you crazy? America was ready to hail Bush. Instead, we got MORE AMERICANS KILLED FOR NOTHING.

Stick that in the Bush worship plate.

[bluestate10]

175. I would have called Bush an american hero if he had given the order

to kill bin Laden, whether bin Laden was armed or not. Oh, I forgot, fuck bin Laden.

[FLPanhandle]

19. I don't care if he was armed or on his knees begging for his life

I'm glad he is dead.

[lpbk2713]

20. Fuck Bush as well.

His primary goal was to derive as much personal gain out of this calamitous event as he could.

[KansDem]

57. While the husband and wife spent their last moment together, here's what Bush was doing...

I hope he rots in Hell!!!

[Arkansas Granny]

21. I totally agree with you.

[slackmaster]

22. I feel exactly the same way. My family lost someone in the attacks.

:kick:

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

27. Somehow I don't think you quite "got" your avatar.

Bless your heart--Mark Twain knew what I meant by that.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

36. Read below:

"I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure".

Mark twain

Surely you don't think Mr. Twain would care much for Osama bin Laden?

[sufrommich]

31. What an asinine post. nt

[TwilightGardener]

32. "Sob story"--ugh.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TwilightGardener]

38. Trivializing the sad experiences of victims of a tragedy is crass.

[Sal Minella]

39. Congratulations.

This is probably the most irrational thing I've ever read on DU, and that is saying a lot.

Backing off the caffeine helped me, and I recommend that, along with a sound track of waves on the seashore. Good luck.

[FailureToCommunicate]

25. AND Bush/Cheney/Rice - who all knew from Richard Clark that

something exactly like this would take place.

I lost two friends that day, one in the North tower and the other on Flight 11.

I have no tears for bin Laden.

[BonnieJW]

26. I heard it.

I cried. And then to find out she died in a plane crash two years ago! She didn't even live to know of OBL's death. I hope she and her husband are together now.

[Ohio Joe]

28. K&R - nt

[Glorfindel]

29. I heard it

My heart broke again. I'm glad bin Laden is dead.

[HappyMe]

30. Yes, I heard this.

It's heartbreaking.

This past Thanksgiving, my son spent the holiday with us. We stood across the street from ground zero, clutching one another and crying. All of those lives lost. :cry: Ridding this world of bin Laden will not bring those souls back, but it was the right thing to do. He executed thousands that day. To say nothing of those who became gravely ill working at the site, and have also died.
Fuck him. Fuck him for every single life lost and ruined that day.

[JitterbugPerfume]

35. that is heart breaking

I hate the death penalty , but for him nothing less can cleanse and make us whole again.

[bertman]

40. Actually, FUCK Dick Cheney. He was the one who let the 9/11 events occur. nt

[SDuderstadt]

51. Oh, bullshit n/t

[Hissyspit]

52. Hunh?

They absolutely could have stopped it.

No conspiracy theory there at all.

[truth2power]

64. I agree. The real terrorists are still free. But let's put all our anger

on OBL. It's simpler that way. :shrug:

[LadyHawkAZ]

66. Not all of them are free

One is now dead.

That doesn't lose value just because there are others who are not.

[defendandprotect]

89. Recall that the official myth indicates that "another nation was involved in 9/11" ---

that information comes via Sen. Bob Graham --

There is no evidence that OBL was involved in 9/11 --

This certainty is driven by right wing propaganda -- set up by W, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Meyers.

An investigation of 9/11 would have been nice -- just for a start!!

And, yes, there was one after almost two years of Bush trying to stop it --

I wonder why?

Then they spent $3 million on it while they spent $70 million investigating Clinton and the

blue dress!!

And millions upon millions more in investigating the Challenger accident!!

hmmmm....

but -- why stop and think about this?

The information comes from the most reliable of sources -- our rightwing corporate-press --

and certainly they wouldn't LIE about something as big as 9/11!!


:rofl:

if it weren't so sad --

[LadyHawkAZ]

146. And of course 9/11 was the only terrorist attack

ever carried out anywhere in the world over the entire course of history.

:sarcasm:

[defendandprotect]

162. The question is re any evidence that OBL was involved in 9/11 -- there is none ...

Only W, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Meyers word for it --

Even FBI doesn't agree --

[truth2power]

152. Yeah, I guess. There was a time

when OBL was A-OK with us.

[defendandprotect]

88. When we seem to be surest of where to direct our anger and hatred .....

it almost always signals the time to recheck what info we're acting on --

Obviously OBL and W were connected and I don't really care about either --

I do care about what we still call justice --

The heavy propaganda surrounding 9/11 has turned it into something as memorable

as Pearl Harbor -- and if that rings a bell with anyone -- they might begin to

recall how much they distrust the right wing -- and how much they distrust rw

propaganda and what it does to people -- stuff like "Partial Birth Abortion" and

"Right to Work" and "Welfare Queens" -- and most of all ....

How much they distrust our right wing corporate-press --

But, of course our corporate-press certainly wouldn't LIE to us about something this big!!!

Oh, no!!???

[SDuderstadt]

91. Look...

no one is saying that Bush/Cheney didn't drop the ball and deserve criticism for that.

However, not one shred of evidence has been presented that they wanted the atacks to happen or even knowingly "allowed" them. Failure to prevent does not equal "allowing" them to happen.

I despise both Bush and Cheney, but there's no reason to invent shit they didn't do when there's an abundance of shit they actually DID do.

[Hissyspit]

101. Nobody is inventing anything.

The preponderance of the 9/11 informational narrative facts indicates show a pattern of willful intent to not see what was coming.

But, say I'm wrong for argument sake. OP's still stands as NOT bullshit. "Let" is a wide enough concept.

[SDuderstadt]

154. And assumes the same thing could not have happened in...

a Gore administration. I think there's little question that Gore would have taken the threat more seriously, but, without more specific intelligence, still would have been unable to foil the attacks.

[SDuderstadt]

153. Lay it out for us...

Be specific.

[bluestate10]

176. Cheney did not let 9/11 happen. But as part of the Bush administration and a key

player in that administration, the arrogance of the top players, including Cheney and Bush caused them to ignore critical intelligence that may or may not have allowed the attack to be stopped. The poster was emotional in the claim against Cheney, but key clues were missed leading up to 9/11.

[defendandprotect]

86. Agree -- Cheney was the guy completely in charge on 9/11 ---

you remember that day -- when NORAD was AWOL ... ???

If W and Cheney had told us that the Russians had done 9/11, we'd still be :rofl:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

42. I hadn't heard that story, Skinner...thank you for telling it.

And I am weeping......

For that couple, and for all the people who died that day, many of them talking to their loved ones...

A horrible, horrible loss. This story makes it personal.


Yeah. Fuck bin Laden. And not in a good way.

[Scurrilous]

43. K & R

:thumbsup:

[lonestarnot]

46. We did!

Fuck that guy! Fuck him to death and beyond! :hug: :grouphug:

[HappyMe]

48. kick

[mountainlion55]

49. The most haunting

image of that day was footage on telemundo that only lasted about thirty seconds and it showed people holding hands as the jumped from the top of the building.It haunts me to this day. At the time I wanted to nuke the rock in mecca and turn it into a big glass bowl. Then asshat scrub invaded the wrong country and we are still at the beck and call of the the house of Saud!:smoke:

[SDuderstadt]

50. I wish I had heard it...

Skinner.

Do you recall what NPR show it aired on?

[BonnieJW]

58. Morning Edition

[athena]

60. You can listen to it here:

The interview is near the end. It's heart-breaking.

http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wned/news.newsmain/article/1/0/1798620/WNED-AM.970.NEWS/StoryCorps.Remembers.Sean.Rooney..Beverly.Eckert

[Chipster]

79. The link was above, but here it is again...

Beverly Eckert: After Sept. 11, 'He Wanted Me To Live A Full Life'

[hamsterjill]

53. I concur.

I didn't hear the NPR story, but from the hundreds that we've all heard for the past 10 years, I totally agree with your assessment.

I believe he had to be killed. As long as there was breath in his body, he would have presented a future danger. Even if he was locked up forever with no chance of escape, I think I would always have worried that he was sending signals to cohorts, etc.

[Zorra]

56. welp...yeah, seems he's already pretty well fucked.

Couldn't happen to a nicer filthy murderous wacko fundie fascist homophobic scumbag POS sociopath.

[blondeatlast]

70. What she said. nt

[Amonester]

117. Yep. *one* who's reason to live was 'my goddy, or the cemetery'

even then, thousands of his 'no thanks' victims don't even have a grave to rest in peace in.

And for those who still 'question' if he did '9/11' or not, never forget he claimed bombing that Embassy.... and the Cole... and... and.... ah fuck it, he's got what he fully deserved and I am only disappointed he hasn't got it earlier.

[Crabby Appleton]

59. link to the NPR story

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/05/135995930/he-wanted-me-to-live-a-full-life

[handmade34]

61. so proud of our President

for making this a priority!!!! I love him!

[bluestate10]

178. President Obama is running the most accomplished Presidency in my lifetime so far. nt

[keepCAblue]

63. Well, fuck *somebody*

Not entirely believing that bin Laden is the one who should get fucked, at least not exclusively, but my-oh-my he does make a convenient scapegoat and now that he's dead, we can just forget about all those inexplicable inconsistencies surrounding the 9/11 attacks and the white-washing and pretense of any real truth-seeking on the part of the 9/11 congressional committee.

But bin Laden is dead so whoop it up, America -- it's time to party and wax patriotic ad nauseum. Ding dong the witch is dead!

[truth2power]

65. "inexplicable inconsistencies". Yep! n/t

[kath]

69. +100.

[blondeatlast]

71. Nobody is stopping you--and there's a dandy room here in the building

where you can do it to your heart's delight. the owners of this site aim to please: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

[A Physicist]

74. Truthers vs Birthers

The rightwing has Birthers and we have 911 Truthers.

You cannot convince any fully infected birther or truther to change their minds. It’s a fool’s errand.

Sunstein & Vermeule wrote and excellent paper addressing some of these issues:

“Conspiracy Theories” by Cass R. Sunstein & Adrian Vermeule (both of Harvard Law School)

“Abstract:

Many millions of people hold conspiracy theories; they believe that powerful people have worked together in order to withhold the truth about some important practice or some terrible event…Such theories typically spread as a result of identifiable cognitive blunders, operating in conjunction with informational and reputational influences. A distinctive feature of conspiracy theories is their self-sealing quality. Conspiracy theorists are not likely to be persuaded by an attempt to dispel their theories; they may even characterize that very attempt as further proof of the conspiracy. Because those who hold conspiracy theories typically suffer from a crippled epistemology, in accordance with which it is rational to hold such theories,…”

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1084585

[blondeatlast]

98. Good read. I'm about 1/3 of the way through it and I can already

recognize much of the manifestations that regularly occur here.

It also makes me grateful that that such theories are dispatched to their own little forum at DU. I long ago recognized the fruitlessness of arguing with the believers.

Thanks.

[Cali_Democrat]

78. The only evidence that exists linking Bin Laden to 9/11 is a grainy video tape found in Afghanistan

Where Bin Laden supposedly claims credit for the 9/11 attacks.

The questionable tape was miraculously found by the CIA in some broken down shack in Afghanistan. The US government has claimed we have additional evidence linking Bin Laden to the 9/11 hijackers, but we have yet to see it.

[defendandprotect]

87. K/R --- No evidence links OBL to 9/11 --

[Warren DeMontague]

143. Since when does "evidence" matter? What "evidence" would ever change your mind on this crap?

Obviously photos don't.

[SDuderstadt]

93. That is...

absolute bullshit.

[Cali_Democrat]

99. OK

You've convinced me.

[bluestate10]

179. Bin Laden himself said that he was responsible for 9/11 in tapes that his

couriers delivered for broadcast. And those tapes weren't grainy and were not miraculously found by the CIA, as you desperately want to believe. Fuck bin Laden and may deep sea creatures feast on his body.

[defendandprotect]

90. K/R for your post --!! And, true, we can also now ignore Global Warming ... cause ...

the rightwing corporate-press wouldn't LIE to us about that either!!!

Amazing how thoroughly and completely rightwing propaganda works!!

DU seems to forget that this was all done under W's administration --

they seem to now embrace the Patriot Act? Loss of our Constitutional rights -- !!

That all gets blown to the wind when you have -- as you made clear -- a great SCAPEGOAT!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

114. I'll tell you, this has probably dealt a mortal blow to the moon landing truth movement.

We'll never find out what really happened!!! :cry:

[Warren DeMontague]

112. Gold is down!

Tin Foil is up!

[SDuderstadt]

190. bin Laden is a...

scapegoat??

Bullshit.

[boycottfaux]

67. DITTO

FUCKER GOT WHAT HE DESERVED . .

And who cares if HIS daughter saw him shot.  Lotsa kids saw
their parents being evaporated in the WTC collapse, it's on
video, they can watch it over and over and over again!

[gateley]

68. K&R

[mod mom]

75. and she wasn't alive to hear justice had been served.

I cried even more when I heard she died in a plane crash 2 years ago.

[woo me with science]

80. K&R nt

[Raffi Ella]

81. I can't describe my feeling toward that animal

any other way than as having blood lust toward him.

I DO celebrate his death. I hope it was painful. I hope our SEALS announced who they were before they.shot.him.through.the.FACE.

I DO want to see the picture of his annihilated face.

I support The President in whatever his decision in this matter was/is. I appreciate SO much the way he's handling it - The Adults are In Charge- but as an ordinary citizen of The United States of America I rejoice in the KILLING of that bastard.

[Roland99]

82. and al-Zawahiri, too

and...

Bush, Cheney, Rice, Hadley, Perle, Wolfowitz.............

[bluestate10]

181. will be great to see the bastard al-Zawahiri die. He is human scum. nt

[Hassin Bin Sober]

83. You sholdn't post and drive.

:hide:

[barbtries]

84. heard it on my way to work this morning.

so much for make up.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Princess Turandot]

92. For the Kenyans as well...

nearly 250 Kenyans died in the embassy bombings in 1998. For some reason, the murder of these two girls from a very small village has stuck with me:

The journey began at dawn at a Nairobi mortuary, where their family gathered to receive the twin coffins of Gloria and Caroline Mutuiri, aged 16 and 17. They had gone to the embassy eight days ago hoping for visas to the United States....

.....As the city began falling away, one of the cousins, Wilson Kinyua Ndambiri, a young chef, remembered the girls, dressed in lavender gowns, as maids of honor at his wedding one year ago today. Caroline, he said, was ''perfect in poetry,'' and taped her favorite verses to her bedroom wall. Gloria, he remembered, was the queen of her drama class.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/08/16/world/for-2-teen-age-sisters-final-trip-to-kenya-village.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fT%2fTerrorism

Also, an article on some Kenyan reaction to Bin Laden's death:
http://www.kentucky.com/2011/05/02/1727271/tears-at-site-of-kenyas-1998-us.html

[Sky Masterson]

94. Yep!

I'd love to have been the one to pull the trigger on that piece of shit!

[DFW]

95. bin Laden was praising Allah for the success of his mission

Well, now he can go tell him in person.

I hope his 72 virgins all look like Haystacks Calhoun and have the disposition of Mean Jean Schmidt.

[babylonsister]

113. lol!

So you forced me to look up Haystacks Calhoun. Perfect combo!

[DFW]

160. I thought everyone knew who Haystacks Calhoun was

My age is showing!

(That's why Robert "Ro-BAIR" Packard is "only" 36)

[bluestate10]

182. "My age is showing!" Yep. Who is that person? nt

[DFW]

189. Which one?

Haystacks Calhoun or Robert Packard?

One you can look up. The other one, ahhh, that is a different story (literally) entirely!

[MrMickeysMom]

135. I'm sure he was taking credit...

That doesn't mean it was his mission.

At least the FBI never thought it was.

[jpak]

97. Yup

K&R

[Eddie Haskell]

100. OMG

Skinner?

[blondeatlast]

103. Why not? nt

[the other one]

102. Or Fuck those responsible for 911.

[blondeatlast]

104. That's what the man said. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

110. I think the "or" in your sentence is misplaced.

Don't you?

[Gregorian]

121. Is it just me who sees that maybe we played a role?

I see emotional responses, but when one detaches and thinks about what really happened, regardless of whether it was an insane thing to do, we the Americans must have played a role. No one has asked why it happened. Why? As if one day a bunch of guys woke up on the other side of the world and said let's destroy a building in New York. Am I alone in this thought? Because the first thing I thought of when the towers were falling was what did we do to bring this on. And one can't say in all honesty that it happened without any action from us. I mean it's pretty clear that by allowing our military to mess around in other countries, this was the result. We can talk all day about how wrong it is to do it, or how nothing can justify what was done that day, but there is a reality. And I do not see it being logically addressed.

[LibDemAlways]

131. You are not alone in your thinking. As heinous, horrible, and

barbaric a crime as it was, there were reasons why it happened, and American foreign policy certainly played a role. Neither Pearl Harbor nor 9/11 happened in a vacuum, though that's what the government and media want Americans to believe.

[WildEyedLiberal]

139. Yeah, what did that guy in the WTC do to poor ol' Bin Laden?

What did that 3 year old on the airplane do to Bin Laden? What role did they play?

Etc x 3000.

Fuck that "it must be our fault" bullshit. Those people were innocent civilians. If OBL et. al. had a beef with US policy, there are ways to make that known without committing craven mass murder against 3000 innocent human beings.

[Gregorian]

144. We put sanctions on Iraq that killed at least a half million people.

Yeah, what did that guy in the Middle East do to poor old George Bush.

I'm only pointing out that the logic works both ways. And it doesn't justify it that we started it first. It's just as wrong in both directions. But what is wrong is to only see one side. And very few seem to see both sides. We put sanctions on Iraq that killed at least a half million people.

And using Iraq as I did isn't really correct. But it is still in the Middle East, and was in the consciousness of the people who took out the towers.

[WildEyedLiberal]

147. Did OBL attack GWB?

No. He attacked 3000 innocent people. He did NOT target the political or military targets (well, besides the Pentagon, but he used a supremely evil method to do so). He destroyed innocents. Those people did not order the sanctions in Iraq or any other US policy in the Middle East.

[Gregorian]

149. He did take out the C.I.A.'s New York station. But the real issue is

Who made Bin Laden?

After all, he was on the CIA's payroll.

It's not just a snapshot of two towers coming down.

[WildEyedLiberal]

170. I guess the 3000 people in the towers were just collateral damage, then

:eyes:

[Gregorian]

172. In his sick mind, yes.

[WildEyedLiberal]

174. Which is why I don't think we should do his rationalizing for him

It's not okay to target civilians, EVER. Not when we do it, not when OBL does it, never ever.

[Gregorian]

185. I want to break the cycle of violence.

My sig line is from a song- "You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace."


I can't help but use an analogy that is the kind I dislike. But bear with me. In thermodynamics there is a method of setting up an environment in which the system takes place. In the real total universe, entropy is increasing. But in an arbitrary universe that takes place within a smaller boundary, entropy may very well be decreasing. I see it the same way as this chanting of USA outside of the White House, cheering on the death of Osama. If I look at the bigger boundary set, I see deaths from wars that go back thousands of years. But if I look at New York in 2001, I see just the twin towers that were destroyed. I cannot exclude what went before that. But more importantly, I try to look at this the way that someone like Jesus would have. There is no doubt in my mind that the single most important thing is to try to break the cycle of violence. It does take two. And taking the pacifist's way out isn't always the complete answer. It seems pretty obvious to me that America has brought this upon itself. I saw 911 coming long ago. I guess I can't improve on "Love they enemy". That's really at the heart of what I'm trying to say. When history looks back on this time, it will be obvious that our irresponsible use of fossil fuel was at the heart of most of the problems we endured.

[WildEyedLiberal]

187. I respect that

But I have to respectfully disagree that 9/11 was a natural consequence of anything; or, more accurately, that an attack which targeted civilians was a natural response for one who had issues with American policy. I know we're not really arguing about that, and I get what you're saying, but I also think it's important, in addition to recognizing the history of the cycle of violence, to particularly single out for condemnation acts that target the most innocent of the innocent. Even in war -or I guess I should say, especially in war.

I can't argue with the ultimate goal you desire, though, and I hope someday we'll be able to beat our swords into plowshares.

[Gregorian]

191. It's the sanctions that killed a half million civilians.

Or was it a million. But that, along with dropping depleted Uranium. I remember sometime around 2003, listening to Dr. Helen Coldicott pleading for us to stop peppering Iraq with what was causing children so many deformities and tumors. This is my context.

And the Cheney assassination squads. I just can't see how these things can be ignored. It's literally something like 2 million dead Iraqis versus 7000 Americans dead, if one wants to put it into a scoreboard context.

The bottom line is, it's insane. There is no way to stop the insanity but to stop it. People don't just go out of their way to kill. Something always has to provoke them. If we stop, terrorism will stop. I'm sure there are exceptions. But I am so far from chanting USA, I can't even imagine the mentality.

We've subsidized our cheap resources through war. General Smedley Butler back in the 30's, told us that. We're a long way down the road now. I think global warming, and peak oil have made it impossible for us to continue whether we want or not.

[Taverner]

106. Alas, there is no Bin Laden left to fuck

And yes, I would have loved to deep fry him breaded, wrapped in bacon. But we are a nation of laws...

[AngryOldDem]

109. Exactly.

Who really cares how it was done. It was done.

Finally -- Mission Accomplished.

[Warren DeMontague]

111. That's where I'm at. I remember the people holding hands as they jumped.

I'm sorry, but in this specific instance, yes, an 'extra-judicial execution' or whatever-the-fuck one wants to call it, was totally warranted and justified.

Now, hopefully, as a nation we can move on to deal with some of the long-overdue problems we stopped thinking about when we sat in shock watching those towers fall.

[jwirr]

115. And fuck all the people who are finding fault with his death and those

who brought it about.

[Scurrilous]

127. ...

:thumbsup:

[CreekDog]

116. If they have to send Navy SEALS in to get you --it might not go well for you

what can i say?

:shrug:

[rug]

119. She didn't say a word about bin Laden, just her husband.

Apparently, before she died, she opposed the war in Iraq and in Afghanistan.

A week before she died she met with Obama to discuss the handling of the prisoners in Guantanamo.



So instead of Fuck bin Laden, I'll just say R.I.P. Beverly and Sean.

[Eyerish]

122. +1

[Stumbler]

120. Sorry, I don't listen to NPR any more...

This sounds like a heart-wrenching story, but I missed it due to their earlier callousness toward humanity.
While tuning in several years ago a host casually asked his audience: "This hour we're asking; should torture always be illegal? And if so, what should the penalties for committing such a crime be?" Not verbatim, mind you, but the essence was crystal clear to me. Aside from some of the weekend programing, I can't tune in anymore...

[greatauntoftriplets]

125. I heard that story....

and it was moving. Then the tragic news that she died in a plane crash.

:cry:

[Ken Burch]

126. Fuck him. Fuck Reagan for helping fund him in the first place.

This is what always happens with "realpolitik"-alliances with bastards.

[Odin2005]

128. K&R +1,000,000,000,000

[KoKo]

129. So Sad...dreadful that she died in plane crash.

[TomClash]

130. It's called war

And the relationship between bin Laden and the USG is nothing if not complicated.

In your name hundreds of thousands of innocents have been killed in much the same way.

[Bluerthanblue]

132. I heard it- it really hit me too.

It seemed extra sad that she then died in a plane crash.

so much pain and loss.

[pa28]

133. He's not a victim.

Any concern about the rules of engagement in this case might be better spent on the innocent people who were classified as "collateral damage" over the years and then forgotten.

[blondeatlast]

137. Gosh. nt

[MrMickeysMom]

134. If I told you that was totally emotional knee jerk jingoist bull

.... would you hold it against me?

Would you delete my post? Well, I'm sure you're above that.

[WildEyedLiberal]

141. You really want your post deleted, don't you? Just to prove a point?

Well, I doubt it will be. You're as entitled to your opinion as everyone else. Do you feel better now?

[MrMickeysMom]

164. Feel better about what?

This was my honest reaction, and due to some other honest questions of mine, I've had entire threads deleted. The explanation that followed was not logical, so it's a legitimate post that I've written here.

And, one that wasn't addressed to you.

[Jester Messiah]

157. Trolling is rarely so obvious. [nt]

[MrMickeysMom]

166. Trolling?

How do you see a question not addressed to you as trolling?

What do you call a person who addresses an answer on behalf of others?

[Jester Messiah]

169. You posted it in a public thread, so anyone can comment.

If you want to send private messages, email is that-a-way.

[MrMickeysMom]

171. Thank you for that news...

Really ... it's valuable.

[Jester Messiah]

173. About as valuable as complaining about replies in a public thread.

Seriously, you need to do a little more research about how this whole "Internet" thing works.

[pipi_k]

158. One of the things that sets (most) humans apart

from the lower animals...like slugs and jellyfish, etc., is the ability to feel emotions.

The other thing that sets humans apart from lower creatures is the ability to understand that humans have, and often express, emotions.

[MrMickeysMom]

167. Why, thank-you, pipi_k...

I'll take that subjective analysis into consideration.

Was there a point that I was to have addressed with you?

[orbitalman]

138. ...and that's just ONE person :( n/t

[Vehl]

140. K&R

My thoughts are with those who lost their loved ones in the attack

[girl_interrupted]

142. I think one of the most heartbreaking calls from the WTC that day

was that of Melissa Doi, 83rd Floor, Tower 2. Absolute agony, just to listen to it, not to mention the horror she went through. I don't know how anyone could listen to it and have any problems with Bin Laden being taken out.

Thank you for your post Skinner, I believe the woman you were listening to on NPR, was Beverly Eckert talking about the loss of her husband Sean Rooney. Beverly, was one of the 9/11 widows that pushed for an investigation of 9/11. She was an incredible woman.


I just want to thank President Obama for taking that monster out and the sensitivity and warmth he showed to the 9/11 families and our first responders, today. It was very much appreciated. He got it right, there may never be closure, but a sense of peace, that Justice was done.


RIP Melissa, and all who were lost on 9/11. You are loved & you are missed.

[LadyHawkAZ]

148. I heard the Cosgrove call

one time and one time only, and threw up. I have tried, and I cannot listen to it a second time. Not all the way to the end.

Fuck bin Laden.

[Tripod]

145. OMG. k&r

[BlancheSplanchnik]

151. I'm with Skinnner on this...

yep

[Jester Messiah]

156. I did hear that. Took me a minute or two to get under control.

Powerful stuff. I personally think Bin Laden got off too easy. I would have loved to see him spend the rest of his miserable life rotting in solitary confinement.

[meow mix]

159. K&R

and ty president obama

[hlthe2b]

161. Oh my.. and the wife died two years ago in a plane crash....

!

Makes one wonder if there might not be a realm of some kind where they are now together... Certainly one wants to think that much tragedy had a purpose for them both. So very sad.

[rasputin1952]

163. It is difficult for us to comprehend the evil that is in this world...

It is even worse when some coward, thousands of miles away can bring such tragedy upon others...and then brag about it.

I remember the shock that day brought, not just here, but world wide. It was bad enough that this piece of shit was paying others to blow themselves up in various places, just to terrify others. bin-Laden was one of those that actually enjoyed the suffering of others...he was a sadistic bastard that through some perverted view of his religion, decided he would take on the world. He died as he lived, violently, I can still mentally see the pic of a man and woman plunging to the ground he deserved what he got, I only hope he had just enough time to feel terror himself, and his bowels let loose just before that shot to the eye. I have no remorse at all over his demise. The one saving grace for him...it was quicker for him than what he left for others to face.

If there is a hell...I hope satan has dysentery and bin-Laden is his bedpan.

[bluestate10]

186. I am blissfully happy that the last thing bin Laden saw on this earth

was an american soldier with a gun in his hand. In the intervening milliseconds, I hope the bastard realized that he could no longer kill an innocent person, ever again.

[Dorian Gray]

165. +1

[DinahMoeHum]

168. An historian/author is writing her story as we speak. . .

Apparently, there will be a book out in the not-too-distant tentatively titled No Truer Hearts, which will cover the story of Beverly Eckert and Sean Rooney; their life together, her husband's death on 9/11, and her subsequent activism.

http://notruerhearts.blogspot.com/

http://anthonytoth.com/

One of the blog entries covered her work with Habitat for Humanity as she and others built a home in Slidell, Louisiana for a family impacted by Hurricane Katrina. The Times-Picayune did a very touching slide presentation:
http://www.nola.com/photos/t-p/index.ssf?9_11_widow_ptw/index.html


------------------------

As for OBL, what's done is done. And what's more, the so-called "Jimmy Carter Syndrome" (born April 25, 1980 as the failed mission in Iran) has died an unlamented death (May 2, 2011). Thanks to President Obama.

[DemoTex]

177. My friend Michelle was killed in the AA Pentagon crash .. so ditto Skinner.

She was an American Airlines flight attendant and her husband was a captain at my airline (and a very good bud of mine). She left him and four kids.

Fuck bin Laden. Really. Fuck that guy.

[Demonaut]

180. totally, +1000000000000000

fuck that guy!

[Maru Kitteh]

183. Amen David. I've been sitting here watching the NatGeo special, the bodies falling, the spouses,

little kids passing the phone around to say goodbye to Daddy one last time.

As you said, fuck Bin Laden. His death was too quick. Too easy.

[TTUBatfan2008]

184. I'm watching too...

Bin Laden definitely got off easy compared to his victims. Watching this show brings back some tough memories, no doubt. I'm just amazed at the people who were trying to help others and died as a result. The firefighters didn't hesitate at all. Astounding level of heroism.

[bluestate10]

188. If justice is fully served, deep sea creatures will make meals of bin Laden's body

for years to come. The murderous bastard got what he should have gotten long ago.