Snoutport's story really got to me - Should teachers be able to carry stun guns?

[Taverner]

Poll question: Snoutport's story really got to me - Should teachers be able to carry stun guns?

Here's the post ------> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1250804

It ESPECIALLY got to me because my wife is a School Psychologist. Although she's never been attacked, she has had to diffuse some very dangerous situations. I used to wonder why High Schools have a cop assigned to it - and now I know.

I think teachers armed with guns would create more problems than solve them - and I'm all for gun rights!

However, if a large, hulking, angry student were to attack, one zap from the stun gun would (hopefully) floor him or her until the cops arrived.

But maybe I'm missing something. There is always the chance that the attacker could grab the stun gun and use it on the teacher. And despite the purported non-lethality of the stun gun, you can kill someone with one. Especially if they have heart problems.

Your thoughts?

[Taverner]

1. For the record, this is a stun gun

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. That helps a little. But what we really need is a video of someone using it on you. n/t

[kick-ass-bob]

2. I'm gonna have to say no

Too much opportunity for things to go even more wrong.

[InvisibleTouch]

3. In a situation such as that, when dealing with disturbed and potentially violent students...

...then by all means teachers should have the means to protect themselves. They perform heroic tasks for shitty pay, and shouldn't be asked to put their lives on the line as well.

[DJ13]

4. Wouldnt it be better to bring back some corporal punishment instead of electrocuting them?

A paddle poses far less hazard than a stun gun.

[Taverner]

5. Ah but if an attacker can't be subdued with the threat of paddling...

What then?

Check out Snoutport's post - his experience is sadly too common

[DJ13]

10. The point is there might not be attackers if they're taught respect beforehand

The current generation has grown up knowing they cant be touched by school administrators, which gives them the upper hand and lessens the likelihood for many that they have any need to show teachers respect.

It has to start being taught to the kids long before they reach the age where they can pose a physical threat to the staff, otherwise its too late.

[TheWraith]

43. Yes, physically abusing them will really "teach them respect!"

And I'm sure that none of the students with serious misbehavior issues have them because that's exactly the sort of attitude their parents have, where any problem can be solved by just hitting the child.

And I'm sure that nothing bad could ever come of teaching kids that the right way to make someone respect you is to physically intimidate, beat, and humiliate them publicly.

:wtf:

[Jefferson23]

52. The point is you should not be looking for excuses to hit a kid, period.

You don't need a study to know this is wrong, and most especially to children
with disabilities.

The current generation has hopefully figured this out, unlike you.

[WatsonT]

7. Sadly that would immediately be followed with a lawsuit

until that situation can be addressed we cannot have real discipline in our schools.

[Taverner]

9. Paddling doesn't work

Studies show no behavior change from paddling

Same as spanking

[Maru Kitteh]

15. Not to mention a stun-gun would never be instituted as an intended as a disciplinary action

only as a means to potentially save a teacher's life/safety.

[Taverner]

17. Yes - using the stun gun for anything other than self defense is torture

And we all know you can only torture Muslims :sarcasm:

[WatsonT]

21. That notion flies in the face of centuries of evidence

and successful implementation around the world.

[WhollyHeretic]

32. What evidence? People doing stupid shit for hundreds of years is not evidence

People have done lots of stupid shit for hundreds of years.

[Taverner]

35. Exactamundo nt

[WatsonT]

50. Ok, consider

would you say kids are better behaved in schools now than they were a hundred years ago?

[WhollyHeretic]

51. There are a hell of a lot of things that are different now. You really have a poor grasp of the word

evidence.

[WatsonT]

56. Let me guess, it's the music television that's to blame?

:rofl:

[Jefferson23]

20. You want to strike a kid with a paddle? Talk about idiotic, never mind it should

be outlawed in every state. The children he works with have disabilities, how nice of you to offer
to fix that with violence.

[Taverner]

38. Spanking, paddling, etc has never caused behavior change

Seriously - there's at least 50 years of data proving this.

The only reason I suggested the stun gun was not to punish the student, but protect the teacher

I have to admit I'm ambivalent on the subject

[Jefferson23]

42. I think you meant to post this to the other response before mine here. n/t

[aquart]

6. Then you missed the part where she claimed a 99% improvement in this student.

Think a stun gun would help that?

[Taverner]

8. She is a he

And no I saw that.

Like I said - I am leaning towards stun guns, but I am very aware of the law of unintended consequences

[InvisibleTouch]

19. The student was 99% improved, but still beat him bloody?

That's a pretty compelling case for giving teachers of such students the means to protect their lives.

[Maru Kitteh]

11. I voted yes. I don't think ALL teachers should get them like, "welcome aboard, here's your desk

and your stun gun" but I do think teachers who have been threatened, attacked or routinely face dangerous students should have that choice after they are thoroughly trained in its use.

[Donnachaidh]

12. NO. Snoutport may be a great teacher - but there ARE bad ones out there

I'm not willing to put my kid in that potential shitstorm.

Teachers aren't cops or stormtroopers. If their are bad acting kids in the schools, let the schools deal with those kids and their families. Don't put my kid in danger.

And even if you don't factor in over-stressed teachers with rage issues -- it's like bringing firearms into school. WHY have a potentially deadly device in a building with kids who could conceivably get their hands on them?

[Taverner]

16. The potential for abuse is a big concern

And should not be taken lightly

Someone here posted that the stun gun shouldn't be standard equipment for all teachers, and I agree

[cali]

13. Not just no but fuck no.

[Taverner]

18. Because?

[readmoreoften]

14. I'm actually terrified of stun guns, but I teach 1000 students a year and I don't know all of them.

Many of my students (adults) have PTSD and who knows what situation I could find myself in. When I confront students on failing a course due to plagiarism I am required to meet alone with that student, door closed. I think it's reasonable in my case.

[Fleshdancer]

22. Taser guns and a defibrillator in every classroom!

Kids are so ridiculous that when you tase them with a 50,000-volt electric shock, sometimes their stupid hearts stop beating! Talk about LAZY! So naturally having a defibrillator on hand is necessary to bring them back to life...not that they'll appreciate you for doing so because, well, that's just how ungrateful the little bastards are.

Kids. You can't stun them, you can't beat them, and you can't kill them. Seriously. Don't stun, beat or kill kids people! Even if they belong to someone else.

[Scuba]

33. Finally a sane response. Thank you.

[Fleshdancer]

36. Just the thought of grown adults contemplating this as an actual option makes my head explode.

I don't get it.

[Scuba]

39. I'm interested in protecting teachers. Surely all the smart people here can think of a better...

...way than stun guns or mace.

[Taverner]

40. I think its a fair question

And heads explode because this rides the fine line between self-preservation and infringement on the student's rights.

[Fleshdancer]

54. No, heads explode because now we're talking about tasering special needs children at school.

To go straight to "should we taser?" and skip the countless number of solutions provided in this thread that would keep teachers safe is indeed mind blowing.

[TheWraith]

45. Do you know the difference between a Taser and a stun gun?

Because it doesn't seem you do. If we're going to have a discussion, it at least needs to be based on facts.

[Fleshdancer]

53. Oh FFS. One uses 80,000 volts and the other uses 50,000 volts!

One only disrupts the nervous system while the other disrupts both the nervous and muscular system. One can only be used close up while the other can be used from a further distance. Tell me how the hell this changes my point?? They both stun. They both can stop a heart. Neither belong in a classroom.

Don't taser OR stun kids! There. Does that work for you?

[TheWraith]

55. Um, no. That's not the case.

Contact-based stun guns are much, much less powerful than a Taser, which impales metal barbs directly into the flesh of the target. A contact-based stun gun cannot physically incapacitate a person--it simply causes some pain. It also cannot stop the heart, unless you're jamming it INSIDE someone's chest. The electric current runs from one prong to the other, making it incapable of sending a shock through the body.

[Jefferson23]

23. Situations demand appropriate number of staff to student ratio and

proper training, not a stun gun.

[PRETZEL]

26. At one time, that was generally true

not anymore.

If Snoutports school is anything like my wife's who works as a teacher assistant at a school that specializes in broad spectrum autistic children with associated behavioral and emotional issues then it won't happen.

Grant funding is dwindling. Other revenue sources aren't there anymore.

These schools work with the same budget constraints as everyother school district. Keep staff at the minimum and bring in people at a much lower wage.

Everyday when I pick her up that's my biggest fear, her coming out beaten and bruised. Everyday I wish she would realize that it isn't worth the $12/hr to be subjected to the things she's told me has happened to other teachers or teachers aids.

But she loves her job immensely so everyday I worry.

[Jefferson23]

29. My point is stun guns are not the answer. The budget issues are real

but there can be mobilization from the parents to sue the school if need be for proper staff.

Parents can write OP eds to their local paper speaking to the issue, it is not easy and
I'm not suggesting this as a quick fix. I am stating stun guns as suggested here is dangerous
and I would hope never be used in these situations.

[PRETZEL]

34. I agree stun guns aren't the answer either.

but I may disagree to some extent (although not totally) about mobilizing for better funding. For the most part parents suing a school could easily put it in jeopardy of closing. These schools are for many, like Snoutport said, is the last resort for them. In addition to learning basic educational skills, a major part of it is learning socialization skills. They won't get that in a mainstream school class or home school environment.

And unfortunately, alot of times the school will put up with this type of behavior in hopes of not being sued.

It's a hell of a bind for the teachering staff.

[Jefferson23]

41. I appreciate your post, true, we are witnessing a great loss in many

areas with education. My hope is that the parents will rally and form a
solid wall as much as possible with the teachers and speak out. There should be federal
funds for this, what Duncan does with the 10 billion he has been entrusted with is a whole
other story..one that angers me a great deal.

I have a very real respect for teachers, they deserve much better than what they receive these days.

[Starry Messenger]

24. NO.

I can just imagine the kind of sick and oppressive climate it would create if teachers (and I am one) were known to have a device on them that causes injuries that can kill. Everyone who works in the public knows there are risks. I've had children swear at me and say semi-threatening things. The school deals with it. It's not the fucking OK corral.

[XemaSab]

25. I think all student desks

should be wired so the teachers can just zap the little fuckers before they get unruly.

Nothing like the threat of a shock to the rectum to keep a 6-year-old in line.

[former9thward]

27. In the original thread a question was asked but not answered.

What was the so-called disability which allows someone to attack someone else and suffer no consequences? Snoutport had stated in the OP that he could not suspend the student because of the disability. There is no disability where you can attack and suffer no consequence. It sounds likes the school has given up any and all common sense because they are afraid of the parents. Suspend or better yet expel the student. Problem solved without tasers.

[Myrina]

28. bigger problem: why are our children so volatile (and enormous)?

Might it have something to do with 20+ years of hormone-laden foods, chemically-stuffed fast food and doctors who give them mood controlling prescriptions like they're Pez?


Jus' askin' because I don't remember ANYTHING like this when I was in high school in the early 80's ...

[ladjf]

30. Stun gun for teachers only if they can use them on whoever was

responsible for the terrible school situation that would make such a discussion relevant. In over thirty years as an educator, I never saw one situation that came anywhere close to requiring physical restraint equipment such as stun guns and billy clubs.

If the students are that out of control, the school should be closed, reorganized and then reopened.

[Dappleganger]

31. No, reduce class sizes, bring in more helpers in special ed classes

and do more research in how to teach these types of students.

[Auggie]

37. No. How about some kind of alarm though?

[kctim]

44. 1000% YES!

We need teachers and a live teacher beats a broken or dead teacher any time.

[FLyellowdog]

47. As teachers, we have the right to defend ourselves,

but we also have the responsibility to walk away from threatening situations. The primary concern is to protect the other students...first by getting them as far from the disruptive student as possible. Then if the teacher fears bodily harm to themselves, then he/she should leave the immediate area but stay where the disruptive student can still be observed (to watch for attempts to harm themselves, etc). And then CALL FOR HELP. Schools have policies/procedures to cover these scenarios and each district is different since there are no national guidelines as of yet.Sometimes law enforcement must be called and it would be their decision on how to take down the student.

Not every student will be compliant to a teacher's effort to control them and often times this effort only makes the situation worse. Keep in mind that we're talking about students who have been identified as being disruptive,i.e., emotionally or behaviorally disabled.
These kids react differently for whatever reason and never ever follow the general rule of thumb.

It's a sad state of affairs, but it is what it is. Special Education is a dangerous field but those who do this work do it because they believe the students deserve a chance.

editted for spelling

[saras]

48. For the record, Snoutport isn't a "teacher" in the normal sense of the word

This kind of behavioral extreme needs a whole 'nother world than normal schools. While selected volunteers may be able to put up with it, ordinary schoolkids shouldn't have to. So, if "teachers" need stun guns, then so do the majority of students - at least, all those more liable to be attacked than to be attackers.

And we can all imagine how great that would work - everyone in school having stun guns EXCEPT the few officially recognized bullies...

[Chorophyll]

49. Wouldn't it be better if, rather than arming teachers

we actually provided our schools with enough resources to have extra adults in potentially violent classrooms? I read Snoutport's post; it was just him and one smallish assistant against a very large, irrational student. A third adult could, at the very least, have run out to get help.

But... teachers' salaries = taxes, and at this point in U.S. history... I'm dreamin'.

[CreekDog]

57. ah, always the voice of reason

wait.

i meant the other guy. :yoiks:

[Gabi Hayes]

58. squirt guns with tesla coils

[Hassin Bin Sober]

59. I vote for radio controlled shock collars or stun belts controlled by radio.

This way the stunning could be done remotely and without warning.

Late for class? There's a shock for you.

Don't push in a chair? There's a shock for you.

Perhaps every student could receive a "just for reminder" shock after The Pledge of Allegiance.