To everyone declaring mission accomplished in Libya, remember this?

[no limit]

[FrenchieCat]

1. President Obama made it about the Libyan people, and not about him,

and it is him warning us that it ain't over just yet.

But thanks for the reminder, and the contrast.

[LondonReign2]

2. Furthermore, it was the Libyan people that rose up

Iraq was not even remotely similar.

[dtexdem]

7. And if the mission was regime change, it looks like it is being accomplished.

Now if it was the establishment of a democratic Libyan regime -- that is a mission for Libyans, not for the U.S.

[no limit]

3. And if it all goes to hell as Iraq did who will be responsible?

Will you hold the president's feet to the fire or will you simply dismiss it by saying it was the Libyan people, Obama had nothing to do with it?

[dtexdem]

9. It will be mostly Gaddafi's fault:

1) longtime dictator, who kept the Libyan people from establishing social and political institutions that support a democratic polity;
2) hanging onto power for months, leading to extensive fighting and the establishment of organizations honed to fight him militarily, as opposed to equipped to develop Libya as a democratic country.

No, I blame Obama for many things -- and often wonder ON HERE whether I will vote for him in 2012. But I praise him for the intervention in Libya and will not blame him is things go south there.

[no limit]

10. But you are saying Obama deserves credit for getting us involved

but doesn't share any responsibility for the consequences of such involvement.

What that translates to is that Obama can do no wrong.

Yes, Gaddafi was a bad person. Just as was Saddam. But I don't think anyone here blamed Saddam for the aftermath of our invasion. So what's different here?

[whatchamacallit]

4. It's about oil

the Libyan people were, as always, a pretext.

[dtexdem]

11. Oft repeated, never supported.

The U.S. does not appear to be on mission as vulgar as Donald Trump's "grab the oil." But it will be up to the Libyan people and their fractured leadership to fend off the international oil vultures who will now descend on Libya -- or rather, descend anew, now that they can no longer arrange their profiteering through Gaddhafi.

[abelenkpe]

14. +1 nt

[whatchamacallit]

19. Google 'Libya intervention oil'

Most of the 6,840,000 hits are reports and commentary from around the world, supporting that very notion.

[sabrina 1]

35. You need to do a little more research on the US and Libya

But why bother? This time it's our team, which makes it all okay ~ put it this way, the vultures, Halliburton eg, were already there and they needed 'their interests' protected. THAT mission has been accomplished, maybe. And the PNAC crowd are happy, and now the 'left' who thought Bush was so wrong, see nothing wrong with this.

I've learned so much over the past two years about 'principles' on the left. It's definitely been a rude awakening.

[KurtNYC]

48. All about oil.

What is the difference between Libya and Somalia? Light sweet crude and lots of it.

[Major Hogwash]

47. The only ones upset about this are the Republicans.

Trying to compare Obama to Bush is just one of the things they do.

[Rex]

5. Update

"Got ya!"

[Lone_Star_Dem]

6. Hey, last time I saw that image used here was when Osama bin Laden was killed.

It's always nice to see people who appreciate the classics.

Like this one:

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. I'm waiting for the Qaddafi statue to get pulled down, myself.

Then I'll know it's all good.

[dtexdem]

12. Libyans have been taking great pleasure in pulling down Gaddafi's green flags.

This is their triumph -- not a U.S. military PR piece like pulling down the Hussein statue was.

Further developments only the future will tell.

And so much for basically-conservative hand-wringing over "what will happen next now that the old power structure seems to be gone?"

[leftstreet]

13. To be replaced by the proper statues

[NutmegYankee]

15. This isn't the same.

We didn't conduct the "regime change".

[no limit]

16. So is Obama responsible for this or not?

[FrenchieCat]

17. I think he should put on his wet suit and go plug up the Hole, 3 miles down.....

He is responsible for everything that ever happens....period.
in case you didn't know.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[no limit]

24. The meme on DU today is that Obama deserves credit for what is happening

does that mean he deserves to share responsibility for any consequances that might come from Gaddafi being overthrown?

It's a simple question and I don't understand why you are having difficulty with it.

[FrenchieCat]

25. The meme on DU yesterday was that Obama caused our economic situation,

and all he needs to do is use his bully pulpit
to give a speech that then will be described as
"Just Words". You figure it out. I'm not sure
why you are exerting yourself so, trying to get
folks to say what it is you want to hear....
since it can only be that, as opinions vary. :boring:

[no limit]

26. Again, you didn't answer my very simple question. Why not?

Do you believe Obama deserves credit for Gaddafi being overthrown? And if you do does that mean that you also think he should share responsibility if the result of Gaddafi being overthrown is similar to what happened in Iraq?

It's a very simple question, and the fact you won't give a simple answer is extremely telling, you don't think?

[FrenchieCat]

28. LOL! Apples to Oranges is quite a simplistic approach, doncha think? Quite Bush-like, No?

or did Bush go and give a speech in the Middle East prior to anything happening, cause
I don't remember that.

Have you ever actually read that 2009 speech that Pres. Obama gave in Cairo?
And if so, did you discount it as nothing?

So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, and who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. This cycle of suspicion and discord must end.

I have come here to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world; one based upon mutual interest and mutual respect; and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive, and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles – principles of justice and progress; tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.

I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. No single speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I answer in the time that I have all the complex questions that brought us to this point. But I am convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly the things we hold in our hearts, and that too often are said only behind closed doors. There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn from each other; to respect one another; and to seek common ground.
<snip>
Much has been made of the fact that an African-American with the name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected President. But my personal story is not so unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not come true for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to our shores – that includes nearly seven million American Muslims in our country today who enjoy incomes and education that are higher than average.
<snip>
Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the beginning of our task. Words alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These needs will be met only if we act boldly in the years ahead; and if we understand that the challenges we face are shared, and our failure to meet them will hurt us all.

For we have learned from recent experience that when a financial system weakens in one country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a new flu infects one human being, all are at risk. When one nation pursues a nuclear weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all nations. When violent extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are endangered across an ocean. And when innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered, that is a stain on our collective conscience. That is what it means to share this world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one another as human beings.
<snip>
America does not presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not presume to pick the outcome of a peaceful election. But I do have an unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind and have a say in how you are governed; confidence in the rule of law and the equal administration of justice; government that is transparent and doesn't steal from the people; the freedom to live as you choose. Those are not just American ideas, they are human rights, and that is why we will support them everywhere.

There is no straight line to realize this promise. But this much is clear: governments that protect these rights are ultimately more stable, successful and secure. Suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. America respects the right of all peaceful and law-abiding voices to be heard around the world, even if we disagree with them. And we will welcome all elected, peaceful governments – provided they govern with respect for all their people.

This last point is important because there are some who advocate for democracy only when they are out of power; once in power, they are ruthless in suppressing the rights of others. No matter where it takes hold, government of the people and by the people sets a single standard for all who hold power: you must maintain your power through consent, not coercion; you must respect the rights of minorities, and participate with a spirit of tolerance and compromise; you must place the interests of your people and the legitimate workings of the political process above your party. Without these ingredients, elections alone do not make true democracy.
<snip>
The issues that I have described will not be easy to address. But we have a responsibility to join together on behalf of the world we seek – a world where extremists no longer threaten our people, and American troops have come home; a world where Israelis and Palestinians are each secure in a state of their own, and nuclear energy is used for peaceful purposes; a world where governments serve their citizens, and the rights of all God's children are respected. Those are mutual interests. That is the world we seek. But we can only achieve it together.

I know there are many – Muslim and non-Muslim – who question whether we can forge this new beginning. Some are eager to stoke the flames of division, and to stand in the way of progress. Some suggest that it isn't worth the effort – that we are fated to disagree, and civilizations are doomed to clash. Many more are simply skeptical that real change can occur. There is so much fear, so much mistrust. But if we choose to be bound by the past, we will never move forward. And I want to particularly say this to young people of every faith, in every country – you, more than anyone, have the ability to remake this world.
<snip>
It is easier to start wars than to end them. It is easier to blame others than to look inward; to see what is different about someone than to find the things we share. But we should choose the right path, not just the easy path. There is also one rule that lies at the heart of every religion – that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. This truth transcends nations and peoples – a belief that isn't new; that isn't black or white or brown; that isn't Christian, or Muslim or Jew. It's a belief that pulsed in the cradle of civilization, and that still beats in the heart of billions. It's a faith in other people, and it's what brought me here today.

We have the power to make the world we seek, but only if we have the courage to make a new beginning...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/politics/04obama.text.html?pagewanted=all

[no limit]

31. Still not answering my very basic question to you.

If Obama gets credit for Gaddafi falling will he share responsibility for any consequances that arise from Gaddafi falling? Do you not understand this simple question?

[FrenchieCat]

37. I don't do simple answers.......and looks like you don't do reading....

But obviously you wouldn't recognize my answer
if it was right there staring you in the face.

As for giving/taking Credit, responsibility and shit...when has this President been NOT held
responsible for bad things happening, while the good shit is never due to him EVER?
And none of that will change, no matter what I think. That's your answer. Take it and run. please.

[no limit]

39. Ok, great. thank you. so if I understand you correctly

you think that yes, he should be share responsibility if things go bad. Was that so hard?

[MilesColtrane]

29. Credit for aiding the rebels? Partial credit as the US did not act unilaterally

Responsibility for a failure of any new government? That depends on how involved the people of Libya want the UN, NATO, and the US in the creation of that government.

(I'm guessing that they'll say, "Thanks, we can take it from here."}

[no limit]

32. So will he have to share partial responsibility if things go wrong?

[MilesColtrane]

34. If they ask us to help establish their new government, yes.

[no limit]

36. So all the bombing we did on their behalf doesn't count?

[MilesColtrane]

41. You will not get the response you desire out of me.

I've given you my opinion.

If you refuse to understand it, that's on you.

[Solomon]

40. here's what you don't get. or maybe you just

don't want to get. It's the way Obama conducted affairs about the situation that was remarkable. For everone crowing about there being no difference between democrats and republicans , this one hurts really bad.

Give the man credit for how he handled the situation. That he was smart enough to do so in a way that we won't be saddled with any blame is to be admired. Yet you want to bash him on that as though its some kind of detriment.

This place is really lost. Obama derangement syndrome is in full swing.

The man simply can't win. On anything. If he does something right, it gets discredited. And worse than being discredited, his accomplishments are actually used against him, since everything he does falls short of what many people want. So the good he does for some, like extending unemployment benefits, is used as a club to bash him for extending tax cuts.

On and on it goes.

[Arctic Dave]

23. Who's missiles were those then?

Who's aircraft are those then?

Your post is ridiculous.

[pampango]

27. And whose boots on the ground? Whose fighters have been killed? n/t

[Arctic Dave]

33. Since we never got the identities of the mercenaries we don't know for sure.

Tall, blonde, Caucasian, blue eyes. Doesn't sound like a Libyan to me.

[NutmegYankee]

43. Boy, aren't we touchy?

Let me guess, you'll miss Gaddafi?

[Arctic Dave]

49. No, just seeing the picture for what it is, imperialist aggression.

Don't tell me, you are another the "rebels have a heart of gold" (no shit, someone actullay posted that yesterday in a non sarcasm way). I assume you were completely for the Iraq invasion and all it's tragedy, after all it let you get all warm and fuzzy because you "were helping the cause".

Rose colored glasses are not your friend.

[NutmegYankee]

51. You are clueless then in your assumptions.

I never supported Iraq and protested in the streets before it's start. That said, I never had a problem with us supporting oppressed people from the air like in Kosovo. And that's what we did here. No US troops on the ground.

[Arctic Dave]

52. Just US missiles and drones.

And whomevers mercenaries and the SAS that they admit are there. But yeah, totally the "rebels" did it.

So are you OK with the US bombing any country as long as there are "no boots on the ground"?

Your logic fails.

"I never had a problem with us supporting oppressed people from the air"

Have youbeen to Libya? You do know they have some of the highest living standards in Africa thanks to the "oppression".

[WilliamPitt]

18. Good Lord.

*sigh*

[bluestate10]

46. Pure distortion. nt

[spanone]

20. Obama's style is nowhere near the limited one.

can you imagine the outrage if Obama were to put on a flight suit and land on an aircraft carrier????? they would crucify him

[Karenina]

22. It ain't over till it's over.

And this fubar clusterfuck is FAR from over.

[War Horse]

30. Getting rid of a brutal dictator is the "easy" part

Lesson: Results may vary

The threat of Gaddafi's forces was imminent this time around. If NATO had not acted there would have been a massacre in Benghazi.

As for comparisons to Iraq, why not use 1991 instead of 2003?

Supporting the overthrow of Gaddafi is more akin to what (probably?) should have been done to Hussein back then.

As for why not Syria etc, it's about feasibility. Libya was doable. NATO is pragmatic.

This may turn out well or it may turn into a nigtmare. Noboby knows yet.

People seem to be both pessisistic and optimistic about Libya, but I haven't seen anyone declare "Mission accomplished".

[Obamanaut]

38. We can build more bases there now, as in Iraq and the -istan countries. And

never leave. As in Korea, Japan, Germany, etc.

[DCBob]

42. if you can't see the difference..

you're either ignorant or lying or both.

[madinmaryland]

44. Un-recced for the poor comparison. Actually there is no comparison.

[bluestate10]

45. Haven't heard or read a single person saying mission accomplished.

Why? It is absolute BS to attribute words that were never spoken or written.

[PVnRT]

50. How many thousands of troops do we have in Libya, again?

And when was it that we actually invaded?

Oh, yeah, that's right, this is completely different.

[Orsino]

53. So you think Gadafi can come back just the way Hussein did? n/t