Those opposing OWS

[PETRUS]

...must address a few things:

We do not have a level playing field. There is extreme inequality of opportunity. The resources and education available to you are determined largely by the socioeconomic status of your parents, and geography. Various government policies (the tax code, trade agreements, etc.) heavily favor certain industries, generally at the expense of others.

Our financial sector is inefficient (wasteful). Traders can make enormous amounts of money through arbitrage, certain kinds of speculation, and other activities that produce nothing and make no contribution to the overall economy. The "job" of the financial sector is to guide savings into productive investment. These activities do not further that goal.

Market failure. It is accepted that the profit motive does not always produce the best results. This is why we build roads with public money. Our health care system is possibly the most painful example. The US has the highest per-capita spend on healthcare (by far), and the World Health Organization ranks the US system #37 in terms of outcome.

Occupy Wall Street does not pretend to have the answers and is not bound by ideology. A very small fraction of the population is getting richer and more powerful while millions - no billions - of people around the world are marginalized, oppressed, and impoverished. Our natural resources are being consumed at an unsustainable rate and our life support system ("the environment") is being poisoned. Objecting to the call for study, thought, debate, and change is morally reprehensible.

[Nederland]

1. You hit on the problem with OWS

Occupy Wall Street does not pretend to have the answers

If you cannot say what it is that you want to do, you will never get anywhere in politics or with the American people. This is the problem with OWS--there is no consensus on what to do about the problem.

[Cal Carpenter]

2. We are years from consensus

The thing that OWS has done, IMO, is started a conversation. A conversation that our two-party system has made impossible for decades.

It is clearly 'getting somewhere' with the American people. I spent 2 days at Occupy Chicago and it was amazing how much support it got from a wide demographic.

I have criticisms of the movement, for sure, but I don't think any real challenge to the economic system as it stands today is possible yet - these Occupy events are simply getting people connected and finding the terms to speak about these things again, overcoming generations of propaganda about capitalism equating to freedom and things like that.

If OWS suddenly announced that it had a solid platform and solution, it would be over, because it would be crap.

[Nederland]

3. Tell me about Occupy Chicago

How many people were there?

[white_wolf]

4. I don't know about Occupy Chicago, but over 400 were at Occupy Knoxville.

[Nederland]

7. Two years ago a tea party rally in Knoxville drew 1700

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/apr/16/protesters-tead-off/

I'm afraid you'll need to do much better than they did before you can accomplish anything.

[Cal Carpenter]

8. Did they stay there nonstop for days (weeks/months)?

I don't know the details of Knoxville because all the offshoots have a different situation, but these aren't just one afternoon with a permit and a march and a rally. This is a whole different type of protest.

[Nederland]

11. No. They had to go back to work on Monday

I'm sorry, but that is actually something that a lot of average Americans think of when they see protests that last a long time. They wonder how these people can afford to pull it off.

[Cal Carpenter]

15. As I explained

in an earlier post directed to you, some people stop by for an hour at lunch, others stay for hours. The population varies because people have jobs/families/school.

As per the edit I made on another post to you, I understand what you are doing and I am not in the mood for it.

[Nederland]

18. All I'm saying is you need to be realistic

You can't accomplish anything in a Democracy without the support of the majority. My recommendation to the OWS movement is to engage in some basic political strategy. For example, look at what Newt Gingrich did in 1994 Contract with America. He came up with a simple list of eight reforms that Republicans promised to support. It was short, simple, and easy to quote. Furthermore, I have no doubt every single one of those things was polled and tested to make sure it had the support of the majority of American voters. The real extreme views that enjoyed support among a majority of Republicans but a minority of Americans were left out (that's why issues like abortion were no where to be found).

OWS could easily do the same thing, but I suspect that there aren't enough pragmatic people in the movement to see the wisdom of doing it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. That's just like the comments I saw on a right-wing blog

Has it ever occurred to you that many of the protesters are unemployed?

In Minneapolis, at least, it's not all kids. It's some of the long-term unemployed who only WISH they had jobs to go to.

But in my experience, Libertarians tend to be short on empathy for anyone who isn't just like them.

[Nederland]

21. I don't read right wing blogs...

...so I wouldn't know.

[white_wolf]

14. Well of course the Tea Party drew more. This is a red state.

The fact that we got 400 people to come out and the fact that we are planning a sustained movement is a huge accomplishment for this part of the country. I swear some people are so cynical.

[Nederland]

19. A good point

In TN that is probably a good draw.

[Cal Carpenter]

6. It varied throughout the day

Unlike Wall Street, there is no way to sleep there. There is a 24/7 presence at the main location (financial district) but you can't sit/sleep there anymore at all. So there were maybe a couple dozen over night, and then the numbers would grow throughout the day to 100-200. Last Friday they had over 300.

From what I understand the numbers have been growing steadily.

The 'organization' there, IMO, leaves a lot to be desired, but the spirit of the movement is there, people show up - for an hour on their lunch break or for 10 hours a day every day, whatever they can manage. They hold signs, march, and most importantly they talk to each other and to passers-by. There are a lot of different viewpoints there but a few things were consistent among almost everyone I talked to. Profit needs to be curbed, money needs to get out of politics, and the movement is not about partisan politics.

[Nederland]

9. In a city the size of Chicago

...only getting 300 people to show up is embarrassing.

To compare, when Martin Luther King held a rally for civil rights in Chicago, 35,000 persons came to Soldier Field.

[Cal Carpenter]

10. What is embarrassing is

supporting the right of 1% of the US population to hold 40% of the wealth, while the lowest 80% of the population only hold 7% of the wealth.

Whether it is deliberate or not.

That is embarrassing.

(eta: in the context of a different conversation, I would be happy to discuss the criticisms I have of the organizers/committees at the Chicago location and the effect it has on the low turnout there, but clearly that is not the conversation you are looking for)

[Nederland]

12. Sure, that is embarrassing

My point is that unless you can get a lot more people to support you you will not get very far.

[Cal Carpenter]

13. See my edit

Have a nice night.

[PETRUS]

5. Heard that before

Ideas do exist and circulate widely among economists, social scientists and others. They are not given their due because their implementation is counter to the (short to medium term) interests of entrenched wealth and power. The first step is for the people to realize their common interests - that they are victims of the system, or at best among a small group of secondary beneficiaries - and that they outnumber the people who are advancing destructive policies. Occupy Wall Street is very obviously helping to achieve this necessary first step. Getting too specific right now will not really help. I couldn't tell you if the organizers planned it this way, or if it's just working out this way. In any case, I think it's a strength, not a weakness.

[Remember Me]

17. absolute nonsense

NO ONE -- God herself -- couldn't have "answers" for what to do to fix things at this point. It's important at this point simply to raise attention, garner support, rally the people en masse, reinvigorate democratic processes (e.g., grassroots) and then together we'll find a way forward. It's important -- and ENOUGH at this moment (nor forever) -- to be getting the attention of news media, pundits, elected representatives at all levels, opinion makers, celebrities, corporations and everyone/thing else, to be growing the ranks and incorporating more involvement all over the country and all over the world, and build momentum.

Edited to add: PETRUS has a good response to this as well, but I found the OP here absolutely brilliant: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2075506

[Nederland]

20. Good luck with that

Successful movements have concise lists of achievable goals. Marx outlined a list of 10 planks in the Communist Manifesto. Martin Luther King's march on Washington had a list of six goals, the most important one being support for the civil right bill that Kennedy had proposed a few weeks earlier. Newt Gingrich had the eight point Contract with America.

This is how successful political campaigns get things done, they propose specific things that are known to have the support of the majority.

[SlimJimmy]

22. That reminds me of the chant I heard a sound bite of the other day.

What do we want?

We don't know

When do we want it?

Now.

[PETRUS]

24. Is it really not clear to y'all

what OWS stands for - or as you put it "wants?"

[Nederland]

25. Nope

I listened to Keith Olbermann read the position statement that came out of the New York group and it sounded like a rambling list of opinions put together by a group of people that each got to write one sentence.

[PETRUS]

26. Hm. You're missing out.

Lots of other people get it.

PS. In the interest of maintaining intellectual consistency, I assume you find the Declaration of Independence rambling and incoherent?

[Nederland]

27. Then please enlighten me

If you can't explain it to someone like me, you'll never have a chance of explaining to a majority of voters--a fair chunk of whom can't stand to listen to more than a 15 sec political spot.

On Edit: And yes, the Declaration of Independence is a bit rambling. A document like that would not survive in today's political environment, no matter what the right wing tells you about the timeless nature of everything the founding fathers wrote.

[PETRUS]

28. No point

You have made a choice. Understanding only takes effort, and not even much of it.

On edit: I appreciate your honesty. I don't know if we agree or disagree on the substantive matters (the problems and the need for change) or just the potential effectiveness of the OWS tactics. As I said before, I think they're on to something. It may not go anywhere. But the hysteria of the opposition is an indication that they are quite fearful it will.

[Nederland]

29. Understanding does take effort

So does being part of a successful political movement.

On the one hand we have me, who has taken the time to actual listen to a five minute reading of the protesters manifesto, as well as read numerous articles and threads here on the subject.

One the other hand we have you, who can't be bothered to answer a simple question.

So who exactly is the one unwilling to expend a little effort?

Wait, let me guess. Your response will be something like "Google is your friend..."

[PETRUS]

30. No

My response will be *yawn*... I'm going to bed. Seriously, dude... 38,000 NY bus drivers get it.

[SlimJimmy]

32. Anytime a person answers in a serious discussion with *dude*, it's

an automatic loss.

[SlimJimmy]

31. No, it wasn't clear to *them*. I didn't make it up, I heard it. And you know what?

I agree with them. I don't think they have a clue. So, if you think that's a good thing, then I have some waterfront property in Arizona for you.

[Fire Walk With Me]

23. Bravo.

:applause: