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Do You Really Want to Live in Poverty Just to Keep the (Blanks) From Getting Ahead?

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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 10:32 PM
Original message
Do You Really Want to Live in Poverty Just to Keep the (Blanks) From Getting Ahead?
In western European, they have socialism. The people pool their tax dollars to take care of each other, particularly in time of need. In America, we would rather live in poverty than see a bunch of dirty, filthy ____s get a dime they did not earn. Why are western Europeans so much “nicer” than we are? Trick question. They aren’t. They simply belong to populations that are relatively homogeneous. Same language, same race, same religion. When your neighbor is “just like you”, you feel his pain, you want to see him get ahead.

This homogeneity did not come easy. The Germans and their allies attempted to wipe out all the Jewish people in Europe and those who were left over were politely invited to leave. Never ending religious wars resulted in borders being drawn to separate Catholic from Protestant from Muslim. People who spoke different languages also huddled together. Lowlanders fought highlanders and coastal groups battled inlanders, so that people with similar livelihoods and economies were able to form countries where everyone was (more or less) the same. Now that European countries are pooling their resources and importing more laborers from Africa, Asia and the Middle East, politicians are able to use divide and conquer strategies to turn Europeans towards corporate fascism. But they have not gone as far we have in the U.S. Yet.

The United States was destined to be divided. Think of where the colonists came from. You have cavaliers on the plantations of the South, talking about the greatness of divine mandate. In the north, roundheads rebelled against monarchy and fought for a society in which profit became the great equalizer---before it became the great divider. The Civil War in the U.S. was as inevitable as the Civil War in England. And then, you have the different immigrant groups that came later, with their different religions, languages, customs. You have different geographies---coastal, farming, mountain---all within the same country, each group fighting for the largest share of the common resources.

The capitalists took advantage of these differences to divide and conquer the American worker. The South resisted unionization, because the bosses told the (white) workers they would have to labor alongside Blacks. Never mind that all workers would make more money and have better conditions with union representation. Whites were told that they would lose something if the other guys gained something. The American Dream was all about taking what your neighbor of a different race, religion, national origin possessed and using it to enrich yourself, your family, your People.

And so, you have middle class whites rebelling against the offer of health care, because middle class Blacks would get it too. You have Christians attempting to prohibit the free religious expression of Muslims, even though the same laws could be used against them. English speakers go ballistic when their schools attempt to teach children Spanish, even though being bilingual is a key to economic success in a country in which the fastest growing demographic group is Latino. Heterosexuals begrudge gays protection against hate crimes, and therefore, they leave themselves vulnerable to hate crimes (against women, against minorities).

There is a fiction in America. Any working class Joe can get ahead---as long as there are plenty of folks poorer, more oppressed, more down by law than he is. This is a lie. In fact, the more poor, desperate, hungry despised people there are in your country, the lower the wages, the poorer the work conditions, the worse the benefits.

No one would begrudge kids education, health care, food. At least, I hope no one would. So, why should we begrudge gays, women, immigrants, minorities those same things? We do not get ahead of the pack by making sure the work houses are full. Because, once built, the work houses have room for all of us.
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. During the Depression everyone ( in rural areas anyway) did help one another.
Cities, maybe not so much. We are rapidly heading toward many people living and working together just to survive, IMO. Call them communes, or whatever term works, but it is undoubtedly coming. Lets hope people can come to this before they don't survive any longer.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. My house is made up of many adults
Not related except by choice. And we practice a form of socialism that really helps all of us maintain a standard of living. We pool our paychecks and we each get an identical stipend, regardless of what the world values our work output, in our house, we have equal value.
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. That my friend might be defined as a commune! And we hopefully
are headed in this direction in order to survive. Now some of the problems involved will be sexual abuse, over bearing/dominant people, and many more. But in order to survive for many, this will be necessary to survival. This will include growing food, and hunting for survival. I see this happening in the not to distant future.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I choose not to use the word commune because it brings up
Images of hippie flop houses, but yes, we are a communal home and we practice socialism rather than just joint rent payment, so yeah, we are a commune.
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I Understand, and good for you people. It works, and that is what is important. n/t
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yep, I'm learning to kill Bambi this year and not pleased about it at all
But the skills of killing food, preparing the carcass and learning how to prepare the pelt is all stuff I don't know how to do.
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. My youngest son is a hunter, and he certainly does not get it from his dad.
Edited on Sun Nov-27-11 11:11 PM by teddy51
I admit though, that I am a hypocrite because I do eat meat and wear leather products. There is no way in hell that I can kill anything though. A spider will survive if left to me.

Oh and by the way, he was on a hunting trip this weekend for deer, ugh.
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Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
49. I'm with you there.
I can eat the meat way easier than I can hunt the animal. I sometimes rescue insects...

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onpatrol98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
62. I'm afraid of spiders...
So, they're generally safe from me.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
30. I gave up hunting as a pre-teen. I have been thinking of taking
it up again, for survival. I think the socialist household idea s a good one. Like Teddy said, you will have to be aware of the negative possibilities that can be involved by allowing certain personality types to join your group. I predict we will,by necessity, see more of this.

Go OWS!
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
34. My husband learned to hunt ten years ago in his 40's
I learned how to process the pigs and deer he brings home. It is a good skill to have.
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. There is no way I could kill a deer, rabbit or any other
animal for food. Plus, I am a vegetarian. The only animals I am hunting now are rats. I am besieged with them. Of course, I am not killing them myself. I have a pest control guy doing the dirty work.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
44. there are lots of things one
could learn to do if they had nothing else to eat. hunting is one of them. there are others....
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Magoo48 Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. Thank you for sharing that.
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. your household is like one of the European countries in the OP.
sure, everyone within your household has equal value, but anyone outside does not. if an outsider moved into your hose without permission, i suspect the house rules would change.

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. How do you imagine someone else moving in without our permission?
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
26. This is quickly becoming the norm, especially with families.
Many (even older) adults are having to move in with their elderly parents just to insure that they can all eat and survive. As the standard of living decreases among the 99% (actually, I think it is closer to about 80% of us), we will see a lot more of this. It is good in the way that families stay connected but terrible that there is no longer an option except survival for so many people.

Again, IMO our entire hope for the future lies in the OWS movement. It would be very helpful if we (OWS) put forth political candidates who are loyal and are true believers in real democracy. Look at the idiots (and the destructive power) that the tea party candidates have brought to our political system.

Of course, this is premature. First we (OWS) have to mobilize "our base." The majority of our citizens. That is not easy. Fighting 30+ years of propaganda and beating TPTB is our only hope.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Do I have a choice?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Doesnt Christianity teach to help your neighbor? nm
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Seriously, what is Christianity anyway? I have many relatives that
had been waiting for the Lord to provide, before family members stepped in and made certain that someone would provide. If I never hear that phrase again in my life, I will be blessed. "THE LORD WIIL PROVIDE" BS.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. even then they will claim their "prayers were anwered"
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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
29. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Give a man religion and he'll starve to death praying
for a fish.
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Populist_Prole Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
35. Heh heh. Had an aunt like that when I was in my teens.
Had a habit of somewhat overstaying welcomes by time and her ability to pay her way. Religious ( watched all the televangelists ) and a bit...spacey. I'll never forget this: Anyway once she needs to get to the airport, and we could not bring her there, and we were all pretty much skint by then, but we coughed up enough between us all ( barely ) to hire a taxi/limo for her. She exclaimed: "You see how God takes care of me?!". My father did everything he could not to throttle her.
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onpatrol98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-11 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
63. Maybe God sent you
O8)
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ehrnst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
20. The phrase is love thy neighbor - but the trick is in defining "neighbor."
If you think that someone's only a neighbor if they're like you, then that doesn't go very far.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Jesus does define the word "neighbor"..
The definition of neighbor is specifically what the parable of the good Samaritan is all about.


Luke 10: 36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
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ehrnst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-11 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #24
60. "Love thy neighbor" then could be construed by the fundies as
love the people that help you.
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libinnyandia Donating Member (526 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. Europe is becoming more herterogeneous with travel between
countries to work. They are becoming more like us but hopefully will deal with the problems better than we have. It is now 1% Nation Under God with Liberty And Justice For Some.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. Europe is dealing with racial unrest, riots, and resentment. A bad economy will only worsen the
situation.

See post 17 for a few examples of what I mean.
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BanTheGOP Donating Member (596 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. Three things need to happen
1. Eliminate the republican Party.
2. Eliminate capitalism.
3. Enforce a maximum wage rule with a corresponding minimum wage rule that sustains at a comfortable level (currently, $20/hour).

Repatriate all monies so no individual has more than 2 million dollars and controls no more than 10 million dollars. Redistribute the money to accomplish the above.

Plain and simple. But the GOP MUST be eliminated, because outvoting them won't work anymore.
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teddy51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Get money out of POLITICS! Not likely to happen though. n/t
Edited on Sun Nov-27-11 11:49 PM by teddy51
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. A bit extreme. There should be room for ___SOME___ success to be had. nt
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. GOP will die if the left seriously takes on the right wing talk radio monopoly
instead of continuing to ignore it
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ZenaD Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. I don't think we're ignoring it.
Where do we get the money to challenge it?
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. protest universities that do athletics on racist limbaugh stations
which is basically an endorsement of those stations and limbaugh.

they are requiring students without TV and high speed to listen to those stations. those stations are dedicated to global warming denial and teacher and education bashing.

limbaugh is undeniably racist.

those unis have mission statement that would require them to break their contracts if taken seriously and they need to be challenged on that.

if some unis looked for alternatives or demanded balance local sponsors would drop out and the RW TR monopoly would fall apart.

no money needed- that's a fools errand- they have a monopoly and they have been protecting it.

and it is being ignored - there's no organized opposition to it and it's been kicking liberal ass for 20 years. an occasional recognition of limbaugh's racism or sexism completely misses RWTR's accumulated effect on US media and politics- the think tank coordinated repetition to 50 mil a week has been completely short circuiting the normal feedback mechanisms democracies depend on.
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ZenaD Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. That's a good start!
Edited on Mon Nov-28-11 08:25 PM by ZenaD
I'm going to a big progressive strategy meeting tomorrow evening. I'll definitely bring it up. Thanks!
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. 15 of 16 2010 NCAA basketball tourney teams endorse GW denial by broadcasting on limbaugh stations
it needs to be an issue. i suspect a large number of university sports programs broadcst on RWTR stations that heavily depend on those associations to bring in ad revenue and give them community credibility.

they'll have contracts, but how can those universities justify continuing those associations considering the limbaugh racism and overall global warming denial? recent global warming warnings make it imperative for universities dissociating themselves from one of the major sources of denial in the country- 1000 radio stations doing denial 24/7, as a paid ad for oil and coal. and all limbaugh stations but maybe a few are totally partisan.

there is no excuse for continuing it. and RW TR is the samson's hair of the GOP and is going to change a lot of state and local elections next year, as it does every election cycle.

the RW TR does the groundwork for everything the GOP does. the alternate reality the tea party lives in comes from years of RWTR. fox needs it.

with citizens united looming challenging talk radio is essential.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. You're amazingly transparent. nt
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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
28. oh oh oh - i wanna play.....
4. Free pie Fridays.

5 Everyone in the US gets a $20 Applebees gift certificate from Congress on their birthday.
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WingDinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
45. YOU, are not going to ban Repubs, they will ban themselves.
All you are is an intelligent observer. They are presently doing so. In fits and drabs. As any wild animal in distress, it is dangerous. We do need a check on Dems though. Woefully admitted. We only accel, when challenged by a nemesis. Like war. Almost like war is the preferred habitat for man. Slongas YOU, are doing all the bomb-dropping. I am looking forward to Dems doing some righteous bomb-dropping soon.
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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-11 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. Wow. K & R
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
17. Europe is not without problems, though. They used to look down at us and
excoriate us for our racial intolerance, and now they're realizing that they're not the saints they made themselves out to be. Racial and religious intolerance, riots, and rightwing behavior and organizations are all on the rise. Those same "We don't want 'our' money to go to the (BLANKS)" issues are starting to be heard over that way, too.

People often are not generous when scarcity rears its head.

Examples of racial strain in Europe, growing by the year:

It warmed up in France about six years ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4407688.stm

French police have arrested more than 250 people following fresh riots in and around Paris and other parts of France.
Nearly 900 cars were burnt on the ninth consecutive night of unrest in immigrant-dominated areas near Paris, despite a heavy police presence.

Nurseries and a school were burnt overnight and unrest spread to Nice, Lille, Marseille and Toulouse.
Hundreds of people have heard a call for calm at a rally in one of the Paris suburbs worst hit.
The mayor of Aulnay-sous-Bois, Gerard Gaudron, made the appeal to marchers outside a fire station which had come under attack.

But youths at the rally in the suburb's rundown Mitry estate predicted violence would continue until tough-talking Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy resigned.

Muslim and Christian leaders were expected to join the march along with the families of the two youths whose deaths triggered the unrest.



Italy: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1953064,00.html

When hundreds of African immigrants rioted in the southern Italian city of Rosarno last weekend, the world got a glimpse of a very different Italy from the one pictured in tourist brochures. But while overturned cars, shattered shop windows and street battles may be a far cry from the tranquil villages in the Tuscan hillsides, the real contradiction uncovered by the violence has less to do with how Italy is perceived by outsiders than with how Italians view the country themselves.
Demographically, Italy is one of the most rapidly changing countries in Europe. Last year, according to the Catholic charity group Caritas, the percentage of noncitizen residents in the country — 7.2% — was greater than Britain's. And in a country where the native-born population is aging rapidly, 1 in 6 babies delivered in 2008 was born to a foreign-passport holder. La dolce vita is also becoming ever more dependent on immigrants and their labor. The International Organization for Migration (IOM) estimates that foreign workers account for 9% of Italy's annual gross domestic product. They pick the fruit in the country's orchards, staff its restaurants and workshops and look after its young and elderly. "If all the migrants just stopped working now, the Italian economic system would collapse," says IOM spokesman Flavio Di Giacomo.
(See pictures of la dolce vita in Italy.)
Yet the country retains an intensely hegemonic streak. Rigid codes of behavior govern everything from how to dress to the proper time of day to drink a cappuccino. Far from being a melting pot, Italy remains a three-course meal, with the pasta carefully segregated from the appetizer and main course and no place for a bowl of hummus or plate of egg rolls. "People now accept that immigrants are here," says Giuseppe Sciortino, an immigration expert and sociology professor at the University of Trento. "But they're still in denial that they are a presence that will change Italy forever."


Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1953064,00.html#ixzz1eyWe3W9y



Germany: After 9 murders, Germany's Turks want crackdown on neo-Nazis
http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/europe/after-9-murders-germanys-turks-want-crackdown-on-neo-nazis
Nov 19, 2011
BERLIN // The leader of Germany's Turkish community yesterday called on the country to vigorously tackle racism following revelations that nine immigrants were killed by right-wing terrorists.

Kenan Kolat claimed the country's three million Turks were afraid of more neo-Nazi attacks. "Many people are afraid that this could happen again," Mr Kolat, the chairman of the Turkish Community in Germany, said in a television interview. "We want more to be done to combat racism.

"These killings were belittled as being isolated cases. We need to start fighting this properly."

German authorities have been deeply embarrassed by the discovery last week that a previously unknown neo-Nazi group calling itself the "National Socialist Underground" was behind the murders of eight Turkish immigrants and one Greek man in various cities between 2000 and 2006.

The case has left the impression that the police were blind to the threat of far-right violence and did not investigate the murders properly because they involved immigrants....


Danish racism:

A group of outraged Somalis say they are considering suing a Danish playground owner after he imposed a blanket ban on them using his property.
Thomas Vestergaard said people of the nationality were not welcome at the Legeland adventure play facility in Århus, northeast Denmark, for six months after a fight broke out at an Islamic festival on 13th November.
In an official statement issued when the news first broke, the AarhuSomali group said, “Somali associations are shocked at the Århus playground Legeland’s decision to exclude law-abiding Danish citizens of Somali origin from patronising their business.”
Human rights experts also condemned the move as illegal. Speaking to the Jyllands-Posten newspaper, lawyer Jonas Christoffersen said, “This clearly violates racism laws, which say you can’t discriminate based on nationality or skin colour, and that’s the case here.”


Read more: http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2011/11/24/somalis-consider-suing-after-playground-ban/#ixzz1eyYz1cLm

Far Right on the Rise in Europe:

The far right is on the rise across Europe as a new generation of young, web-based supporters embrace hardline nationalist and anti-immigrant groups, a study has revealed ahead of a meeting of politicians and academics in Brussels to examine the phenomenon.

Research by the British thinktank Demos for the first time examines attitudes among supporters of the far right online. Using advertisements on Facebook group pages, they persuaded more than 10,000 followers of 14 parties and street organisations in 11 countries to fill in detailed questionnaires.

The study reveals a continent-wide spread of hardline nationalist sentiment among the young, mainly men. Deeply cynical about their own governments and the EU, their generalised fear about the future is focused on cultural identity, with immigration – particularly a perceived spread of Islamic influence – a concern.

"We're at a crossroads in European history," said Emine Bozkurt, a Dutch MEP who heads the anti-racism lobby at the European parliament. "In five years' time we will either see an increase in the forces of hatred and division in society, including ultra-nationalism, xenophobia, Islamophobia and antisemitism, or we will be able to fight this horrific tendency."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/06/far-right-rise-europe-report

“Finland is, at a minimum, quite a racist country, says a huge majority of Finns.

Two-thirds of the nation thinks that there’s a lot or quite a lot of racism in Finland. Despite this, only two per cent of Finns see in themselves much racist sentiment, while 12 per cent admit to possessing quite a lot.

Such findings are the result of a TNS Gallup questionnaire commissioned by Helsingin Sanomat. Of all minorities, Somalis and Muslims are the ones Finns feel most negatively about. Roma are thought of even more negatively than these groups, though: 37 per cent feel quite or very negative about Roma.

Such strong feelings about Roma people can be partly explained by the way Finland’s Roma are confused in people’s minds with the negative publicity Roma beggars from Romania have received, notes docent Magdalena Jaakkola of University of Helsinki.

Of all minority groups, Sami people, Swedes, English people, Estonians and Chinese people were seen most positively in the Helsingin Sanomat-Gallup poll. Those interviewed were read the names of 17 nationalities or minorities; of these, 13 were thought of positively by the majority of the population.

A significant amount of Finns (35 per cent) fully or somewhat agree that Islam is a threat to Western values and democracy.

http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/htimes/finnish-papers/17292-racism-rife-in-finland.html

It's a tough issue when there are shortages--of cash, of services, of jobs, of material goods. People get a little grabby and selfish....and it's not just an American thing, either.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
54. And it is also easy to no tbe racist when your
entire population is homogenous.

I never understood in full the meaning of America being a melting pot till I sat in a Danish cafeteria and look around meat all the other people who were so, Danish. Blond hair, blue eyes. Some were taller than others, some fatter, some had loner thinner noses, some had a tinge of red hair.

I felt like myself and the two other Americans I was with stuck out like the proverbial thumb.



We are all mongrels here. Inter-mixed with other mongrels who carry different skin color and other characteristics. And so these things regarding the issue of race have to be worked out.



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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-11 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. Yes, I've been in those sore thumb situations myself. In some
cultures I could hide a bit, and not stick out until I opened my mouth, but in others I could be seen coming a mile away.

In Europe, the "others" are starting to compete for increasingly scarce public services, and that's causing tension amongst "historic" populations. It's easy to be tolerant when there's plenty for all, I guess.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-11 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. I think part of the tension between different races is that
So often there wasn't plenty for all, and quite often, those on the losing end of the stick are seen as defective by the majority population.

For instance, in the Deep South, many poor blacks suffered from pellagra and other diseases related to malnutrition. So they ended up looking like they were lazy, when in fact they were suffering from physical conditions caused by "the system." For instance, the person whose land they share cropped took the produce raised on the healthier of the acreage, and left the black families with the food grown on poor soils. Eating that food kept them alive, but just barely.



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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
19. well judging from Mississippi,
yes indeed, whites would prefer to remain poor just to keep blacks from getting ahead.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
22. impossible to have a national rational discussion on this as long as the left ignores talk radio
we've got a bunch of rural states with few people and too many senators that are politically dominated by right wing talk radio.

and while the talk radio gods get noticed for examples of hate speech they don't get the credit they deserve, for instance, for birthing the teabaggers, taking the US to the edge of default, making it impossible for moderates in the GOP, etc.
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Populist_Prole Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. RW talk radio is constantly extolling the virtues of "every man for himself" worldview
On radio, and even TV. Same drumbeat. Economic Darwinsism.

During the 90's that douchebag Limbaugh kept pissing heimself with glee at Nike's slogan "You don't win silver; You LOSE gold" and would not shut the hell up about that for months. He thought that was the most profound best thing he's ever heard.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. he lives in a heritage foundation bubble, protected by call screeners, praised by paid callers, and
fed by million dollar PR pros.

and that after being heavily subsidized until they got him a dominating monopoly.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
27. In America, the rich corporations who buy off politicians are held blameless. It is now--and always
has been--the white working class who is to blame for the state of the country. :shrug:

"And so, you have middle class whites rebelling against the offer of health care..."

Um, who is offering them healthcare??? :wtf: Single payer "off the table", remember? :hi:

"There is a fiction in America."

Indeed.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
31. Too many people gladly trade the betterment of all for the assurance someone is more screwed than

they. It drives a lot of what is wrong with things.
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
33. The US is too diverse for that...
Too many groups don't like each other. This country is driven by negative stereotypical views.

(imho of course)
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
37. K&R............nt
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
43. Well, you're partly correct.
This idea that socialism exists/works in Europe because of homogenous populations is a right-wing talking point/lie based in no way on the truth of the matter. The UK has, for instance, multiple official languages, and massive numbers of non-whites. It is, in fact, the non-whites and the working-class whites voting together for Labour which has made the party strong. Switzerland? 4 official languages, so there goes that one. I could go on and on, but you get the point.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. In what part of the planet do "right wingers" say that homogeneous populations lead to socialism?
Edited on Mon Nov-28-11 09:08 PM by McCamy Taylor
Right wingers in my experience say that homogeneous populations lead to nationalism or "family values religious conservatism" (their words for fascism). Right wingers---who advocate homogeneous populations---would be the last folks to say that racial purity leads to socialism which they despise.

Maybe "right winger" has a different meaning outside the US. Maybe "socialism" has a different meaning, too, more akin to the "National Socialism" of the Nazis. Care to elaborate?


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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Well, the ones who you heard it from, I'd guess.
You're talking about the right-wingers who advocate that, like the BNP. So, which way do you think it is? It's a talking point spread in the US to make people think "it couldn't happen here". You've just helped to spread it. I think you're completely correct on the larger point, but I don't think you should spread this one lie. You only have to look as far as Canada to see a country with a better social infrastructure than the US has while still being internally divided in language and culture.
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Dude, I don't "hear" anything from the right wing, because I don't listen to them.
British National Party. Just Googled it. Looks like the British equivalent of the KKK.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/

The KKK is not socialist. The KKK is just like the BNP which wants to return to the good old days of Empire when white folks in the UK during the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries got rich stealing from India, China, Africa, Ireland (Yeah, to the British the Irish were not "white" they were barely human). During the Irish Potato Famine, the UK committed genocide by forcing Ireland to export food even as its own people were dying. That is the kind of socialism the BNP and KKK want. The KKK wants to see Blacks and Latinos slaving in the fields, while white masters take it easy profiting from the fruit of their labor and white overseers crack the whip and lord it up with their masters. The BNP may say it wants the immigrants out, but what it really wants is to steal the blood, sweat and tears of the immigrants while depriving them of any of the profit of their labors.

What the BNP and KKK want is not socialism. They want a white oligarchy, a return to South Africa under apartheid. A land where enough to eat is a God given right for white folks but an unnecessary luxury that instills sloth in those of color.

I think perhaps you need to re-read my OP. I do not suggest that America become homogeneous in order to achieve a socialist workers revolution. I suggest that we heed the words of Engels who said that we would never achieve that revolution as long as the bosses could divide and conquer us along ethnic (or gender or racial) lines. The 99% is already homogeneous in this country, for the simple reason that the 1% have declared war on us. Once we recognize that fact, we achieve solidarity, which is the necessary first step towards socialism.

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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Yeah, you've missed your point, and contradicted yourself at the same time.
From your OP:

"Why are western Europeans so much “nicer” than we are? Trick question. They aren’t. They simply belong to populations that are relatively homogeneous. Same language, same race, same religion. When your neighbor is “just like you”, you feel his pain, you want to see him get ahead."

NOT TRUE. In fact - as you and I agree - homogenous cultures, and those who are pro-homogenous culture, are not socialist. The bit above - that you wrote, that I was commenting on - is pure bullshit. It's just not true at all.

This is the part I agree with: "we would never achieve that revolution as long as the bosses could divide and conquer us along ethnic (or gender or racial) lines."

So, how do you work out this contradiction in your mind? How is it that you can think that homogenous cultures are more prone to socialism, yet ignore the fact that you've written a lie, that being that European countries are homogenous? It's breaking my brain a bit.

I don't know where you first heard it, but I've seen it spread around here an awful lot as a reason why socialism doesn't work in the US, and it's not true.
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Texasgal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
47. I have an amazingly tight knit neighborhood
We pull together all of the time. I had a neighbor down the street that had heart surgery, she was alone. We neighbors pulled together walked her dogs daily and made tons of casseroles and breads for her while she was on the mend. Just yesterday I gave away all of my turkey leftovers to a family down the street (I am a veggie now days ). My hisband could only eat so much so we shared.

We help with each others yards, watch kids, check mail, watch each others homes while away.

We live in a very modest older neighborhood. We are not rich at all. We all band because we know we need to. I am so very lucky to live here.
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drmeow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
52. I think that contributed
but is only a part of the story. IMO some other factors that played a role include: two brutal wars fought on their soil (and all the infrastructure damage that went with it), different government and election systems, different national myths, greater population density, a lack of intense rivalry with a communist country, different education systems, landed gentry. And, in truth, I think having a state religion also may have played a role.

There are any number of differences between Europe and the US other than homogeneity.
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mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-11 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
55. Thank-YEW Welfare DEFormed, which started all this!!!!
Edited on Mon Nov-28-11 10:59 PM by mntleo2
In 1996 when Welfare DEFormed was passed, it was created after the trashing of low income people who became the face for the myth of the Welfare Queen ~ who Ronald Reagan admitted later had never existed.

Listen to the entire name of this bill written by Robert Rector, Heritage Foundation Fellow: It is called The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act (PRAWOA).

As if the poor were *not* "responsible" and they did not do any significant work, that law in essence says that the "only" contribution to communities is saying, "Do you want fries with that?" This laws says that for anyone (not just the poor) "work" is not raising the next generation to take care of us and run our infrastructure for the future of our country, it is not giving to your neighbors, volunteering in your schools, caring for your elders in need, or participating in your community betterment. All that was codified into law under the PRAWOA as "doing nothing". The *only* thing Americans can do that is "responsible" is use our bodies to further enrich the rich guy, THAT is "doing something" for your community.

Let me define poverty in this country: Many people believe poverty is a "choice" thanks to idiots like Rector.

Poverty is *not* a freaking choice ~ it is an INSTITUTION

Poverty is an institution that is based on racism, classism, sexism (including LGBT),and ageism. This institution is kept in place because it benefits in many ways all classes outside of it. The cheap labor of the poor makes things cheaper for the upper classes so they can spend less and save their money. Like that cheap gardener who sweats their life blood while mowing the lawn for a song or the WalMart Greeter who is locked in at night and forced to work for free while not making enough to pay the rent, or the daycare worker who would never dream of healthcare even though she is exposed to sick kids every day and has no sick leave to tend to her own or her family's illnesses.

The reason Robert Rector wrote that bill is an interesting story. One time he had met with some low income welfare moms at a DC community meeting who were calling for change. They were low income women who had fled their communities in Virginia and had come to DC to get college educations. Where they had come from they had little hope of making enough to feed their families. After centuries of living under the oppression that came out of the slave labor of their ancestors, the largest dream they were allowed in those communities was working in the Big House as a maid. As many were doing all over the country, these women left their communities and went to college to (gasp) make a livable wage and actually provide enough for their families.

Rector was incensed that these uppity women were "using the System" to better themselves. He had no problem with his own friends sitting around their private pools collecting their tax free dividends, but a low income single mom using a fraction of that to EDUCATE herself????? Teh NERVE! So he ran home and penned the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunities Act. After all his pool sitting friends needed MAIDS not educators, they needed gardeners not architects, they want nannies to take care of their kids so they don't have to themselves, they did not want African American psychologists to analyze their kids when they display detachment disorders later in life. Sheesh!

The poor are fodder for blame for all the societal woes, they are stereotyped into being drug addicts, alcoholics, child abusers ~ all things that are just prevalent in the upper classes as well, they are just hidden. However the punishment for all these things are far more prevalent for the poor and the Prison Industrial Complex is growing in leaps and bounds while using their low income prisoners as slave labor.

At that time when Welfare DEFormed was passed and it is true to this day, the poor paid the highest proportion of their income in taxes than in any other class in all states. At that time the low wage worker was not paid any better than they are today as far as a livable wage. At that time the cost of food, housing, medical care, and transportation took just as much from the little they had. At that time corporations paid less than 8% of the revenue, and the rich, while having to pay more than they do now, made a far less sacrifice than the poor to pay taxes, enjoying enough left over to more than suffice for their pleasure while never having to worry about the necessities. In 1996, over 60% of the revenue was paid by wage earners (73% of which were low wage workers), 30% paid by small businesses.

Today is it no different as a matter of fact inflation and taxation has only taken more from meager incomes that are suffering further. While the poor pay for the roads, court system, community commons, the rich who use these things at a far greater proportion, pay little or nothing.

When this Welfare DEFormed was passed, few in the classes above low income people cared because, well, that law they mistakenly thought, did not apply to them. Obviously they did not read their Constitution closely enough ... because anyone with any knowledge of that sacred document knows laws are not passed for a particular class. At that time, activists like me tried to warn the middle class that, "you are next", but we were booed off the stage. The economy was booming and they fell for the myth that anyone one who was poor was because of "choice". The cry of the poor about what was happening to them fell on deaf ears ~ as a matter of fact it was called "class warfare" every time the institution of poverty was so much as mentioned.

That is until the middle class began to fall down to the ranks of the poor. To their horror they too began to be treated, blamed, and considered "lazy" because they were poor. I cannot tell you how many times as an advocate I hear from them, "I did all the right things. I worked hard. I paid my taxes. I obeyed the law. I was in the PTA, I took care of my family. I went to church. I was a good neighbor..."

These were all the same things the poor did as well. While I would never wish poverty on my worst enemy, I would say that the falling down of the middle class was a windfall for the poor because when the middle class began to join their ranks and get the same treatment THEN it becomes a crisis. In a sad way I would say, "The more the merrier ..." Because we are now seeing more people who are speaking up ...and because they are middle class ~ or were ~ they have the sympathy and power to capture the ears of media and policy makers in a way the poor could never dream.

The most important part of all this story is about getting back to the subject of Welfare DEFormed.

Because that whole movement was brought on by disgruntled rich white people who knew that if anyone looked closely enough they would see the coming bubbles enriching them. People would notice and blame the ones responsible instead of the, "quick look over there" dog and pony show they were putting on blaming of the poor, the truth would begin to come out.

I can tell you the poor saw it plain as day. But with all those experts we heard then, those rich people, their paid scholars, politicians whoring for their dollars, and other "professionals" ridiculing and drowning out these cries that the time would come when we would see a dying empire, a broken economy, illegal wars that again enriched the elite and caused death to those below them, and a time when it would become obvious that rest of us had been sold a bill of rotten goods, well that would never happen.

So, I am glad the middle class is waking up to the truth about who to blame for our country's woes and it the poor. It is not class war, it is the damn truth, it is ALL because of the rich who use the rest of us as their galley slaves and then blame us to call attention away from what is their responsibility as people whop have been enriched and enjoyed their privileges at everyone else's expense.

So legislators on the take, all you pundits quoting those pimps and political whores with all your minions, people like me are on our knees thanking God for people like the ones who continue to point out the obvious. I suspect you are worried about the coming torches and pitchforks storming those gated communities that WILL happen unless you begin to pay your fair share.

You well know, it is about the REAL Personal Responsibility you seem so concerned about with others. And it is about the ACTUAL Work Opportunities your friends have sent overseas and then got tax breaks for doing it.

It is about who these TRUE Welfare Queens are, and Sirs, it is certainly not us. We have given our fair share and sorry you and your friends' turn is next. As someone who has seen the needless and harsh punishment of millions simply because they were poor and the suffering you caused with your illusions about what we are and what we have done and how worthless we are compared to your friends' idle, elitist, un-American, and selfish pastimes, now I have to ask ...

HOW DOES IT FEEEEEL ??????

Cat in Seattle
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-11 03:28 AM
Response to Original message
59. McCamy is a LIGHT. N/T
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-11 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
61. k&r
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