Choosing sides in Egypt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

Poll question: Choosing sides in Egypt

Things seem to be accelerating.

Who should the US back?

[MineralMan]

1. Other: We should stay out of it altogether, then see what

transpires. Egypt's path should be decided by Egypt's people. We've already meddled enough in that part of the world. When things have calmed down, then we can assess the situation.

[kctim]

2. Yep

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. And if a bad actor gains power we permitted it and if a good guy wins

our silence will have been deafening.

Imagine if the Iranians had freed themselves. They could, rightfully, look at us and say, "Where were you when people were dying and we needed public support?"

Why would they ever believe we want what is best and right?

Doing the right thing is never a passive state.

[Enrique]

6. a bad actor has had power there now for decades

and we've been giving him billions in military aid.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. If we withdraw that aid (and we should) we make 1/2 of a choice

So once you decide Mubarak is not worth propping up do you stand idly by and risk seeing the nation go to the side with the most guns or do you support the one who wants what is best for the people?

[MineralMan]

12. We are not in any position to do anything with regard to a popular

uprising in Egypt. What do you suggest we do? At this point, all we could possibly do is say that we support this or that group. That will have absolutely zero effect on what happens.

This is Egypt's thing, and the Egyptian people will decide for themselves what happens. If enough support the overthrow of the current regime, and are willing to put themselves on the street to accomplish that, then they will succeed. If not, nothing we say or do will affect the outcome.

Today's uprising may be very short-lived. Or it may succeed. We will not change what happens, but will have to deal with what happens. Hands off is our best possible position.

[johnroshan]

25. US has a crucial role to play here. Stop aiding that dictator and condemn his actions.

"That will have absolutely zero effect on what happens. "

I beg to differ on that. Even a simple statement condemning the actions of a dictator can offer crucial moral support to the population out there in the streets.

"There comes a time, when silence is betrayal" -- MLK.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

26. Awesome quote. Thank-you

[MineralMan]

32. And we've done so well in the past, right?

A big part of the problem, or at least a significant part of the problem has come from our meddling in countries in that part of the world. Why would you suppose that the US would officially condemn the current regime? If the USA acts, it would probably be in support of the status quo.

Don't rush to suggest US participation in the affairs of other nations unless you're sure that participation would be helpful. It almost never is. The US should back off from this completely and let the Egyptians figure out what they want. If we meddle, history tells us that we'll choose the wrong side and cause more harm than good.

The US Government will not do what you want it to do. It would do exactly what you do not want. Better it stay silent. It is a common, naive error to assume that any organization will act as you wish it to. Look back in time. When have we ever done the right thing in the Middle East? Seriously.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

51. And meth-heads have no moral authority to speak against drug abuse

[MineralMan]

55. OK. Now you've stepped into woo territory. I'm done.

[MineralMan]

24. Doing nothing is often the right thing.

Our meddling is part of the problem. More meddling will not improve things. We've screwed up our Middle Eastern policy so badly over the years that our input is not needed or wanted. Let the Egyptians figure out what to do in Egypt. We can't even run our own lives...to paraphrase a song.

[ananda]

7. Yes, stay out of it.

nt

[Catherina]

18. Well gag me with a fucking spoon. For once we agree. So glad I took you off ignore yesterday n/t

[MineralMan]

22. Thanks. We probably agree on more than you think.

Our meddling in the affairs of nations in that part of the world is part of the problem. Step one should be to stop meddling and let the people who live in these countries decide how those countries will be run. We've made a sorry mess of things over there for a very long time. We neither understand nor are qualified to decide for them.

[Catherina]

28. I wouldn't be surprised. Explaining the long inexplicable soft spot. How's your frnch now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RyRodQhPYs

[MineralMan]

37. My French is weak.

But, the message of that song is so true.

[TBF]

29. Very nicely done MM, I agree. Let the people decide. nt

[NotThisTime]

33. It's not our decision we need to stay the hell out of it....

[monmouth]

38. I think, at least for now, that includes VP Biden...Quiet Joe...n/t

[MineralMan]

56. Indeed. Our input is not helpful, given what it represents.

Why do people thing things will be different this time? They won't. If we meddle, we'll do it incorrectly and screw things up even more.

[blondeatlast]

42. Agree. nt

[Lorien]

63. How are we "meddling" here on DU by voicing our opinions?

do you really think that DU has that much power?

[MineralMan]

64. The question was what the U.S. should do about it,

not what we think. I'm addressing that question, not what we at DU should do. I'm part of that we, and I think we should stay the hell out of it, and let the people of Egypt determine their own direction.

That's what I think. Your opinion may differ from mine. There is no single "we" at DU.

[Dover]

3. This isn't FOOTBALL!

n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

5. You're absolutely right. That's why we cannot risk making the wrong choice.

People are being killed and if the wrong people come to power lots more will die for a long time to come.

[MineralMan]

14. Yes, people are being killed, and no matter how it turns out,

lots more will die for a long time to come. We cannot change the course of Egypt. The Egyptians will set their own course. It will be painful, no matter how it turns out.

[SoCalDem]

8. No one... we should step back

and whomever comes out the "winner" should be allowed to develop their country in their way..

Mubarek had plenty of reminders throughout the years, to lighten up..and he refused

If this rebellion is their "1776", we have to think about how we would have felt had some 3rd party tried to squash our revolutionary fervor..

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. Even violent radicals or a more repressive regime?

[SoCalDem]

17. We will not know until it's over..

Choosing sides has not worked well for us in the past.

For all we know, our support of Mubarek might be at the heart of their issues.

We are not the boss of the world.. we don;t have the money or manpower, and we have a hard enough time running our own country.. It's time for us to step back.. & stay back

Call it Operation Qué será, será

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. And we will happily embrace whoever shoots their way into power

while the unarmed and peaceful are consigned to their mercies.

Why birth the next bastard when you can just adopt him?

[MineralMan]

40. Oh, dear....what is it that you think we can do? Send in troops?

For pete's sake. Think about what's possible and what is advisable. Since there is literally nothing we can do to change the events of this day, and maybe for weeks to come, our best move is to stay the fuck out of it. We'd make the wrong choice anyhow.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

47. Did we send troops to Serbia when Clinton worked to bring down Milosevic

with domestic protests?

Courage is the confluence of resolve and imagination.

[MineralMan]

49. Again, this situation is neither simple nor well-defined at this point.

We've already sent too many troops too many places to do too many of the wrong things. Don't ask for what will work against your goals.

[MineralMan]

23. Our meddling in the Middle East is a big part of the problem,

in the first place. More meddling will not improve the situation.

[JuniperLea]

52. I believe this is the bottom line...

And we should remember the past.

We should keep our own damn mouth shut, and stay out of this. I think Hillary has said all that needs said.

[NotThisTime]

35. This is a serious risk

[MineralMan]

19. What, exactly, is it that you think we should do?

There is nothing the US can do that will affect what is happening today. Nothing.

Edit: Sorry. I replied to the wrong post...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. We should demand peaceful protesters be treated peacefully

And make any statement that delegitamizes radical islamist factions trying to take advantage.

It would also help to say anyone who speaks openly for democracy should not be silenced.

What would be the harm in any of that?

[SoCalDem]

36. The "harm" is that the man-on-the-street there doesn't not care one iota

what WE think they should do..

[Nuclear Unicorn]

39. Are you reading the right post?

I said the government should be told peaceful protesters should be treated peacefully.

Are you saying the man on the street would resent the US telling Mubarak not to shoot him?

Really?

[Brickbat]

50. Hillary Clinton did just that a couple days ago.

[MineralMan]

43. We are not in a position to demand anything!

Do you not understand that? How do we demand? Why should anyone in Egypt listen to our demands?

There are no "peaceful" revolutions. "Peaceful revolutions" are just big protest marches, and have about the same effect.

[xchrom]

11. um -- the protests are ideologically unalligned.

elbaradei would not necessarily be the best choice -- and he is no one's leader at this time.

your poll is out of line and a fiction.

[Renew Deal]

13. I'm not comfortable backing anyone.

Let the Egyptians sort it out.

[Catherina]

15. I need a choice for other, I don;t trust Baradei as much as I wish I could. Rec'd n/t

[blondeatlast]

21. +1. nt

[TBF]

34. ElBaradei is probably more trustworthy than Mubarak - but agreed on letting the people decide

it is their country after all.

The most I'd like to hear our administration say is "we back the people of Egypt". I know, dream on ...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

41. I wholly agree

But the people are unarmed.

Their voice has to be protected from the bad guys with guns.

Obama should demand the internet be turned back on and peaceful protesters be protected from harm.

[TBF]

44. LOL - Obama is not going to do that. Not while he has Hillary and Joe

out there talkin' up Mubarak ... "oh he's not a dictator" Pffftttt.....

[MineralMan]

45. Obama can demand nothing from other nations.

He can suggest. He can cajole. He can influence. We cannot demand anything of Egypt's government. They will do as they think best, as will the other factions. It is not our job. We've screwed up that job in the Middle East so many times that nobody's interested in our "demands."

[Nuclear Unicorn]

46. So why not suggest/cajole/influence?

Except the same realpolitik crap that so many us spend so much time railing about so long as a R did it or a D did it more than 40 years ago?

I'm seriously thinking all this talk about international communities and human rights are just words used against republicans. It's all empty bullshit because as soon as we're done crying about Operation: Ajax we'll be tut-tutting about how impotent we are to offer a word of support for honest, peaceful people.

I can only wonder what people like Dr. King who faced real tyrants, unarmed, would say about a level of cowardice that can't muster a simple word of support, just excuse making for the dictators.

[MineralMan]

48. No doubt that very thing is going on through diplomatic channels

at this very moment. The world doesn't work the way you want it to. It never has, and probably never will. Why do you suppose there is no communication going on? Because you can't see it? How odd. The White House is communicating with our Ambassador, who is communicating with the Egyptian administration. That's how it works. It doesn't work by making public pronouncements.

What's being said? That I cannot tell you, because I'm not in a position to know. I have no role in this. You have no role in this. You can say what you think, for whatever that is worth, however, as can I.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

53. What's being said is "Mubarak is not a dictator"

That seems to be quite at odds with the claims of the people we supposedly would like to see have their fair and open voice.

[MineralMan]

54. Yes, so what makes you suppose the US will do that which will

help the situation, then? Do you believe that they'll change their position? Really? You see, you think you know what should be done, so you call for action. What you think should be done is not what the US government should be done, I can pretty much guarantee. You still seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that the government will do the thing you think is right.

Today, if our government did anything, it would be to support the Mubarak government. That falls under the "Better The Devil You Know" protocol that is almost always followed. Is that what you want? If not, then urging our government to step in will produce results you do not like.

Thinking about actual realities is important. The world does not run on idealistic principles. It simply does not. Our staying out of the situation is the only thing that might possibly lead to the conclusion you're hoping for. It probably won't, but it's the only thing that might help. If we step in, we will almost certainly do the wrong thing and make matters worse. See Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

57. Be sure to wipe your hands. Nobody likes a sweaty handshake.

[johnroshan]

61. Read "blood telegram" to see what happens when you stay silent to the actions of dictators.

Every single human being on this planet has a responsibility to support the freedom of his peers.

Nobody is advocating to send troops into Egypt. All we want the US to do is speak out in defense of democracy, in defense of freedom of expression, in defense of human rights. These issues are universal and unaligned with any political party.

Every single country needs to condemn the actions of this dictator, out in public, not in some secret cable that the authorities can just ignore.

[AngryAmish]

16. Mubarek is not a dictator

Joe Biden told me so.

[Catherina]

20. Joe Biden. Every reason the President needed an insurance policy. n/t

[seabeyond]

30. can't. nt

[Laelth]

58. Other: THE PEOPLE. n/t

-Laelth

[Cerridwen]

59. Bless you. I was just coming to post that.

:hug:

[Lorien]

62. +1. nt

[blindpig]

60. Other

The People.