Has anyone here ever confronted a conservative about the issue of wealth disparity?

[Brilliantrocket]

We know most conservatives are not super wealthy. When confronted with statistics such as : the top 20% own 85% of total assets while the bottom 80% own 15%. When confronted by something like that, and knowing that most conservatives aren't rich, how do they defend it? Why are they so blind to where their own interests are? Examples of responses would be enlightening.

[old mark]

1. K&R- Good luck with that- they would probably call their guards and have you

removed...


mark

[Brilliantrocket]

4. My intent is to ask the regular conservative.

You know, the blue collar type of guy. Where has the logic gone in this country?

[old mark]

34. Many of those people believe Sarah Palin is a figure mentioned

in the bible (Deborah) come from Heaven to lead America into the End Times....How much logic can one really expect?

But I'd be interested to learn how it turns out...

mark

[rhett o rick]

40. It's called denial. I havent found any conservative that will discuss issues. They fall back on Fox

talking points. And then leave the discussion.

[Pedalpower]

48. What could you say that would haunt them? ....

What we should be doing, IMO, is to CRAFT questions that the conservative personality can't dismiss. Sure, you think they can ignore all facts, I know...

But, they sure respond to the psychological assault that the Right has devised over the past couple of decades. They've been moved to the right and they can be brought back. There are phrases, framing, buzzwords, and methods that work on Cons. It can be done.

They use these dirty methods to spread lies and hate. We can use them to correct it.

What would we say? How do we do it?

[Hannah Bell]

2. yes. typical reaction = so what?

they don't get the implications; or do, but don't care.

in my experience.

[Drale]

3. When ever I bring up the issue of wealth

they usually have the same reply. "But I might be rich some day so we should treat the rich the way I would want to be tried when I'm rich." Its pure delusion. :spank:

[salvorhardin]

6. Exactly. A lottery mentality for a lottery economy.

[HughBeaumont]

22. Horatio Algeritis.

They'll never get that their Pop-Tart-munching asses aren't going to be the next Mark Zuckerberg. That kind of success is called a lottery. For every Zuckerberg, there are 10 to 100 thousand schmoes who fail; some eventually, others spectacularly.

[Johonny]

44. They simply believe the capitalistic model

if you believe the most ethical, the hardest working, the smartest, the most blessed by god get wealthy. Then you conclude the wealth deserve their money and the poor most have done something to deserve where they are too. Most believe that since they are good and work hard, the system will eventually reward them too. When they finally figure out this isn't working... they have been trained to blame Dems and liberals that mess up the "pure" capitalistic model. This is why Republicans spend so much time talking about the mythical free market.

[mascarax]

47. Yes, that is the reaction I've gotten

Other than pure nonsense...they really do think they'll get in the club someday and sure as hell don't wanna pay all those taxes! So keep 'em down now so they don't have to pay later.

[Cant trust em]

5. That's not an issue for them.

Rich people are rich because they are smarter and more talented.

Poor people are poor because they are dumb and lazy.

[Very_Boring_Name]

8. bingo

[woo me with science]

11. This may change as they sink into poverty. nt

[GoCubsGo]

17. Nope.

They'll just blame that on "illegal aliens", black and brown-skinned people, liberals/socialists/communists--anyone but their own ilk.

[Johonny]

45. exactly

when they say hey I'm smart, hard working, believe in god and I'm losing in the game. The conservatives tell them they would be winning if only liberals weren't hurting the "free" market model. Get rid of the free loaders and regulation and you will win too. And they believe. Oh how they believe.

[GoCubsGo]

15. Exactly right.

If a person is poor, it is because they "made bad decisions about their lives." The unemployed are "lazy and don't want to work." The wealthy get their wealth from "hard work" and "smarts", rather than from lying, cheating, stealing, inheriting... No need to confront them about the disparity. They'll just spout the usual BS.

[Cant trust em]

29. My goal isn't to disparage the wealthy.

Some of them really did just work hard, save and invest wisely. Many times legitimately are smart and now reap the rewards of that. But I'll be damned if I'm willing to give that credit to all of them.

But I don't feel like scapegoating all poor people as lazy is even close. Most people work their ass off everyday are are rewarded for that work in peanuts.

[Dappleganger]

42. What I hear, "You don't get rich working 40 hours a week."

What I say, "Right, I'll bet my grandfather the share-cropper had some insights into that fact, too."

It usually leaves them speechless.

[socialist_n_TN]

50. As did my Daddy the sharecropper.........

:) And his Daddy the sharecropper. And my Mama's Daddy.

[Cant trust em]

52. Too right. It might not make you rich, but you also shouldn't be poor. nt

[Mojorabbit]

41. Exactly. nt

[Pedalpower]

46. Rich people are rich because they're more MORAL...

...well, that's what the Right believes.

Yes, they feel like they might be rich some day. They admire the rich, despite their own poverty.

Now, if you actually put the money in front of their faces, they'd take it. They're human. The problem is, they've been without real hope for so long that they've forgotten what it tastes like. We need to show them.

[Smashcut]

49. Exactly. Justifying their own privilege and greed is what they do best

[Iggo]

7. I don't confront them at all.

California is a three strikes state.

[librechik]

9. math is not their best talent

try hairdressing or Southern Comfort Food. Maybe their eyes won't glaze over for those subjects.

[annabanana]

10. "Why would you punish success?"

If someone else can game the system, who are YOU to say that I won't be able to. . .someday, maybe.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. +1 That's what I hear.

But they go home and think about it.

[Hello_Kitty]

12. "I never got a job from a poor man" or somesuch is the typical response.

[Xenotime]

13. exactly. when you ask them about somebody who starts their own business...

they don't have an answer.

[HughBeaumont]

25. Stupid phrase. A part without a whole.

More on that here . . .

[Statistical]

14. Most conservatives are more worried about people poorer than them "getting over" then

the people who are richer who are robbing them blind.

No matter how poor a conservative is, there is someone else poorer and because they project a lot of their own failures they are always worried onto those people.

I once tried with a conversation something like this (heavily paraphrased version).
Neighbor: BLAH BLAH BLAH Welfare fraud.
Me: What is the most a single person could "steal" via welfare fraud.
Neighbor: ??? (No clue)
Me: Say it is $5,000. Now how many people do you think do that?
Neighbor: ??? (No clude, didn't even know how many people are on welfare in total).
Me: So say it is 1 million as an upper limit. Statistically that puts the upper bounds a $5 bill as total potential welfare fraud. Now likely it is less but at most it is $5B. US federal expenditures are (at that time) $2000 B.
Neighbor: So.
Me: Even if welfare fraud was widespread aproaching the upper bound it is a rounding error on government expenditures. Less than 1%. If you pay $5,000 in taxes it would be like a buck or two going towards fraud. AREN'T YOU MORE WORRIED WHERE THE $4,999 is going?
Neighbor: BLAH BLAH BLAH Welfare fraud.

[immoderate]

23. Welcome to the world of the "true believer."

These beliefs are so deeply grafted to the personality that they cannot perceive any contradictions. They unconsciously suppress anything that does not comport to their world view.

The defense mechanisms run the gamut, because they are defending their basic personality. They will NEVER be able to assimilate your point of view no matter how well developed.

Be prepared for word salad.

--imm

[kctim]

16. I have found

that the further right you go, the more that individual rights trump society needs.

They are not "so blind to where their own interests are" because individuals themselves are the only ones who know what is in their own best interest.

[HughBeaumont]

18. "That's just 'class warfare'©"

"It's so typical of the leftists to begrudge people who, plain and simple, worked way harder than the rest of us to get where they are©."

"So what should we do, Mr. Commie? Redistribute wealth©? Is that the answer? Should no one be successful?"

"An egalitarian society is not possible©."

"The left doesn't have any other solution or plan except to screw the rich and punish success©!!"

Yes, my co-workers, Facebook friends, relatives and various future Marble-Row denizens who visit DU were conditioned quite well by messers Luntz, Murdoch, Hannity, Reagan, Ailes and Weyrich.

[musette_sf]

53. Yep, that's the response I've gotten too

"class warfare©"

[Stargazer99]

19. ignorance could be the answer

[SheilaT]

20. Confrontation is rarely a good idea and doesn't very often

accomplish much. But when I do have brief conversations with such people, I find that they are generally uninformed, sometimes to the point of being quite delusional about the actual wealth gap in this country. Even when they clearly understand they are themselves in the bottom part of the wealth distribution, they number one do not understand how incredibly difficult and unlikely it is to ever get into even the top 20 percent, let alone the top five or one percent; number two they don't really grasp how huge the difference between them and the top really is.

One source for this disconnect is the popular media. TV and movies often show supposedly working or middle class people living in ways their supposed jobs could never possibly support. The actual struggles that most ordinary people have, even in better economic times than these, are never accurately shown. I think the source of this is that those making TV and movies make so very much money themselves that the simply don't understand what life really is like outside their own small circle.

Much advertizing feeds into the idea that anyone can have it all. You just need the right credit card.

[socialist_n_TN]

51. Telling point here. I saw a poll a few weeks ago.............

(and no I don't remember what poll it was or where I saw it) that the average person when asked about the wealth distribution in this country, thinks it about where it actually IS in Sweden. Yep, democratically socialist Sweden. THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT.

When confronted about it, I hear blather about hard work and rewarding success. Most REAL wealth is inherited (see the Koch brothers). They get it from Diddy.

[LiberalLoner]

21. Yes, I have. Former friend of ours (friend no longer, due to his very rude

posts on facebook to me) - when I posted an article on facebook showing that most of the income gains have gone to the top 1%, with charts and everything really showing what is happening, he said, "it doesn't do me any harm that someone else gets wealthy...I don't begrudge any man his fortune."

His belief was 1. He would be among the wealthy someday soon (total pipe dream, will never happen) and 2. Wealthy people are far superior to poor people so he sucks up to the wealthy so he appears to be one of the "better" crowd.

He grew up very poor, also is a teacher now and not especially rich.
Shrug. All I see from the right-wingers is a bunch of delusional thinking very similar to what I get when I've tried to talk to my father about his drinking (active alcoholic.) Denial, denial, denial, all kinds of weird psychological defenses getting in the way of perceiving reality.

[Brilliantrocket]

26. I guess they think that wealth is infinite...

[LiberalLoner]

27. Seems to be their train of thought from what I can tell...n/t

[fadedrose]

24. Bible covers all that - slaves, obey your masters;

kings given their power from God, yada yada yada..


Onliest thing that matters is their fear of gay rights.

[JoePhilly]

28. Oh ... I have ...

First some context .... my wife and I make enough to get the Bush high end tax cuts (we're on the lower end of it, but we still do get a break).

I take a golf vacation each year with a bunch of my old high school friends, a few of whom are very conservative, each of whom make far less than I do.

I got to explain to one of them that I stop paying Social Security taxes when my income hits 106k, while he pays SS tax on 100% of his income (he makes about 65k a year). I pointed out that my wife and I maximize our 401ks every year, deferring the taxes on about 33k each year, he doesn't make near enough to do that. I pointed out that I put 5k into child care and into health spending accounts PRE-TAX. He can't afford such tax breaks.

So basically, I can defer taxes on about 45k or so, plus a tax break on my mortgage interest, and I pay no SS tax on what I make above 106k. So I get tax breaks on my first 65k or so that he can't take.

He pretended to be happy for me. I told him to keep voting for the GOP. That way, I can vote for Democrats, because I think they have a better approach for the country ... and he can vote for the GOP, and ensure that I get to keep my tax breaks.

[LiberalLoner]

30. Brilliant strategy! :) n/t

[JoePhilly]

32. My old high school friends are like a bell curve ...

3 of use are pretty liberal, 3 are very conservative, the rest are in the middle with various leanings depending on the issue.

Our yearly golf reunion is for the most part "apolitical" ... its basically a bunch of 40ish guys playing bad golf, drinking, and reminding each other of how great we were as athletes / sex gods. And, we also spend much of the time making fun of each other. Endless mocking.

My conservative friends hate the fact that I was right about Iraq. So I rub that in their faces whenever the chance presents itself. None of them know who Phil Graham was or what his role in the financial collapse was ... I enjoy explaining it to them.

When one of these political debates pops up ... my moderate friends, those in "the center of the bell curve" quickly instruct my conservative friends to "give it up now!!" ... their position is that I will destroy any argument that my conservative friends put forward ... which is a mocking of their views.

[riderinthestorm]

31. "The rich create jobs, and that's good for all of us".

Insert long, obligatory nonsense about the rich, taxes, job creation and futile chat about how the last 10 yrs have been so great for the middle class...

Basically, its useless.

[montanto]

33. Hey, they work hard for that money,

if you weren't so fucking lazy (or fill in the blank: black, Latino (they'd say Mexican, but, you know . . .) gay, poor, stupid, smart, female, whatever, just insert a likely ad hominem attack at this point), you, too, would be rich and powerful. Anyway, they made that money fair and square (even if they stole it) and they deserve to keep all of it. You, sir, are simply whining because you aren't rich and powerful. I know this BECAUSE I am poor, and you don't see me whining about rich people because it is liberals and scientists that are fucking everything up!!

There.

That's one I've heard with slight variation about a hundred times.

[Kingofalldems]

35. Wealthy elite thinks it is a good thing

They love those South American oligarchies.

[ljm2002]

36. I have brought it up...

...pointing out that the disparity is as great as, or greater than it was during the Gilded Age right before the Great Depression. They look at me blankly as if to say, well it's nothing I ever heard discussed so it must not be relevant to anything.

Really, there is zero resonance with them on the issue.

On the other hand, I do continue to bring it up, because I think it will eventually resonate. One area of agreement I have found with some on the right is that the ruling class are a bunch of corrupt clowns. On that, it seems, there is broad agreement.

[WhoIsNumberNone]

37. Their reply usually involves some rationalization for maintaining the status quo

"Rich people are job creators"
"I never worked for a poor guy"
"Why should you be punished for success?"
Etc.

[HughBeaumont]

54. All of which are completely empty statements.

1. Explain the last 10 years, with a Republican in office and the lowest continued top marginal tax rate in 75 years. ARGUMENT OVER.

2. A poor guy doesn't give us pencils. So what? The statement's a part without a whole .. . it's about as dumb as saying "No tornado ever destroyed MY house".

3. Er, seems to me that the "successful" get rewarded with multiple lotteries no matter how good, bad, shitty or criminal their performances are. Besides, if you look at the last 30 years, I'd hardly call what America's been doing to the successful at the price of everyone else's prosperity a "punishment". Seems to me WE'RE the ones getting all of capitalism's risk, loss and failure while the fruits go straight to the upper crust and stay there.

[WhoIsNumberNone]

56. Hey, I think all those arguments are just as stupid as you do-

- but it's like trying to prove evolution to a creationist. They live in a different reality than the rest of us, and simply will not accept any facts that conflict with their belief system. Try to tell them that zillionaires are exploiting them and they'll show you a picture of a crockoduck.

[kenny blankenship]

38. What issue? They respond.

Brilliant, hardworking people get rich. Bad people stay poor. "Inequality" is the mathematical result, but it's just proof that our system works to reward virtue. It's not actually an "issue" at all. That's what they say, or at least what they mean and would say if they could think it through. You can even encounter people here at DU, who call themselves Democrats, who exhibit the same attitude.

There's nothing you can do to argue with that kind of secular Calvinism. Eventually, through its own spiraling excesses and denial, it will arrange for its own extinction. I don't plan to do or say anything to get in its way.

[southernyankeebelle]

43. I have a relative that makes a pretty good living in the medical field. She

said she would have voted for Bush again if he could of run. He was good for her business. I told her he was a crook and should have been in jail. But like most republicans they think of their pocketbooks first and to hell with the working poor in this country. I told her she could take less vacations and save that way. I told her its time the working people got a break.

[Bill McBlueState]

55. "How dare you try to color my worldview with facts!"

That's not really what they say, but they might as well.