I witnessed history being made in Madison this weekend

[Bjorn Against]

I have participated in many protests in the last few years, but this weekend was the first time I felt I had participated in an event that would change history. What I saw in Madison when I traveled out there this weekend was nothing short of extraordinary, the dedication shown by so many people from so many different backgrounds was unlike anything I have ever witnessed before. This is not just a protest, this is going to be a defining moment in labor history.

It is too early to know what the final outcome will be, but even if Walker does manage to get his bill passed it will only be a temporary victory for him. Scott Walker has awoken the progressive movement, what he has done will not only damage his governorship but it will damage the Republican Party and other union busters for years to come.

Scott Walker made a tremendous mistake in going after teachers because every one of those teachers he went after had students. While students may complain about their teachers, the truth is many of them share a very close bond with those who teach them. One of the most amazing things I witnessed in Madison was the number of young people in the crowds, while the media is largely portraying this as a union rally but I can assure you that there were not too many union members among the thousands of young people in the crowd. These young people may not feel that they are directly affected by this bill, but they know others who are and they are standing up for the people they care about. The protests in Wisconsin are not just reawakening the progressive movement, but they are giving birth to a whole new generation of activists.

Make no mistake about it, the movement that Scott Walker has awoken is going to destroy the tea party. When I marched on Saturday I saw the signs of a few hundred tea party members who showed up, and interestingly enough I don't believe I saw any signs about “big government”. Even if the less educated members of the tea party don't realize it, their masters at the top know that the Tea Party is now fighting for bigger government. The Tea Party is fighting for more government regulation, they act as if regulation is always bad and yet they are fighting for greater government regulation of unions. When we point out the gap in wealth between worker and CEO they scream about socialism, but now one of their primary talking points is that the public workers make more money than private sector workers. The Tea Party has now become a movement that is focused on openly advocating for the redistribution of wealth between different workers in different sectors of the economy. I don't know that I can call the Tea Party socialists because it is a very twisted version of socialism they are promoting, but if the Tea Party thinks that those who promote the redistribution of wealth are socialists then they are socialists by their own definition.

While tens of thousands of labor supporters have occupied the Capitol for a week straight, the Tea Party was only able to get a few hundred people to show up on Saturday. The passion is just not there among Tea Party members right now, while many still may not see the hypocrisy that I just pointed out in their movement they know they do not have the same commitment that the labor activists do. The protests in Wisconsin has delivered a serious blow to the Tea Party, and it is a blow they may never fully recover from.

I returned home from Madison today, but my experience out there was one of the great experiences of my lifetime. I may not be able to make it out there again before this battle is over, but I know the people who put this together are not finished and I look forward to joining them in many future actions. The people of Wisconsin have a lot to be proud of today, let's hope that people all across America follow their lead.

[Skittles]

1. off to the Greatest Page with ye

yes INDEED

[Hardrada]

2. The biggest rally I can remember! The American People awaken.

[Bjorn Against]

7. This was the third largest protest I have been to...

While there are protests every year that have more people than the Madison protest, this is not all about the size of the crowd. Most of the larger marches have months of planning behind them and then only last a few hours. What is happening in Madison was organized in the space of a few days and it is going all day every day. It is extremely difficult to get people dedicated enough to spend days on end for a cause like this, but Wisconsin has found thousands of them. The passion and dedication of the people in Wisconsin is something we don't see on such a large scale very often, that is what makes this such a defining moment.

[Hardrada]

24. I'll have to drive over again and bring some friends.

[Hannah Bell]

3. kr

[snappyturtle]

4. I'm jealous! Good for you! Thanks for making the effort too. nt

[socialist_n_TN]

5. As I've said several times, the BIGGEST..........

encouragment I got out of this week's events (and I got a LOT of encouragment in a LOT of ways) was seeing those young people out there. Taking action at that age often sets up a lifetime of activism and, at the very LEAST, sparks a curiousity about political activism. These guys will be carrying our torch into the future.

[livingonearth]

6. This is an excellent piece!

I will be using many of your points this week in my never ending struggle to educate a couple of tea bagger I know.

[glowing]

8. Honestly, if it had not been for the middle east and Egypt, I wonder if it would have been

This big. You know people here were inspired by there movement for freedom... The least we can do is stand up for the freedoms we deserve and should fight for.

[Bjorn Against]

11. I saw plenty of signs referencing Egypt.

There would have certainly been protests even if the events in Egypt had not happened, but I do think that Egypt likely had a big impact on the level of passion and dedication we saw in these protests.

[Omaha Steve]

9. I know just what you mean!

K&R!

[lonestarnot]

10. Bless your heart! Thank you!

:hug:

[abq e streeter]

12. Wonderful reading this....I'm feeling at least a small glimmer of hope

for the first time in a long time. I'm generally a pessimist and unfortunately have been right in my pessimism far too often, but seeing what I've been seeing from Cairo to Madison is letting me dare to hope again.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Yes this is a defining moment in the history of labor

I usually read about it, not blog it.

Thanks for your eye witness report

[Lifelong Protester]

14. I don't know where you are from, but thank you for coming to our

state.

I was there Wed. and Friday. I saw all the young people, and that heartened me too.

And yes, I was heartened by the conversations I had with old boomers who were having flashbacks to our youth. Loved every minute of that.

And finally, I would second the posts here that the Egyptian movement and success was inspirational, and couldn't have happened at a more opportune time.

[murielm99]

15. Thank you for being there.

It is wonderful to be a part of history, isn't it?

We raised our kids in a union household. We raised them to be informed citizens and good Democrats, too. I am proud that my oldest daughter is involved in the events in Madison and is able to make her voice heard, along with yours and many others.

We will win. We may lose a few rounds, but in the long run, we will win.

[Bjorn Against]

20. Yes, I think we have already won this round.

It is possible that Walker may be able to sign his union busting bill, but the unions are going to come out of this a lot stronger than Walker. Yes the legislation would be extremely damaging, but there would be such a strong backlash that it would destroy the Republican Party of Wisconsin. If the bill does pass Walker will most likely be recalled, the law will then be repealed and the unions will be stronger than ever. This only happens of course if a lot of people remain active, but given the level of passion I saw this weekend I know that won't be a problem

[russspeakeasy]

16. To my former state...I'm proud of you.....

[burrowowl]

17. K&R

[du_da]

18. While I think we all agree with your sentiment.

<edited for correction>

It is an important distinction to understand the viewpoint of the opposition. This anti-public union mentality is first and foremost about unions in general especially the monopolization of labor aspect of union contracts. That's actually a legitimate complaint that needs to be dealt with. The second part which is more directly reliable to this specific situation is that the anti-public union crowd are made up of individuals who each look at themselves as individual partial owners of a company that is paying for these workers to perform services. So in that regard, it is critical to keep in mind this isn't about increasing government regulation. Note that the bill has no effect on private unions. The current effort is about telling the board of directors and CEO of their company that they do not want their company being "held hostage" in contract negotiations with unions.

Agree or disagree with the wisdom of their point of view, this is about telling the people running their company, aka the government, that they want it ran like Walmart with no willingness to give in to the demands of unions as opposed to GM who embraced unions and try to work with them more often than not. That is not the same as increasing government power, that is stipulating the policies by which government may go about utilizing the power they have.

Our job, is to inform the people why this is not a wise course of action.

[Bjorn Against]

22. Setting limits on unions does increase government power though

I get what you are saying for the most part, but I do not get how putting limits on unions would not represent an increase in government power. If the government is able to limit their ability to negotiate and force them to take a vote every year to justify their existence then the government is clearly regulating unions. I certainly get the argument that public workers do work for the taxpayers and we can discuss the merits of that argument, but I just don't see how the government placing regulations on unions is not increasing the power of the government. The Tea Party can tell me that public employees work for them, but they can not tell me that they are not advocating for increased government regulation.

[du_da]

23. It increases government's power as an employer not over the people in general.

That is the distinction the Tea Party types are making. From their perspective this is just like being the shareholders of a company. Then to top it off, they are set off further by the idea that with the company being government it is possible for the unions to effect the leadership and in effect end up negotiating with themselves. That is why the governor is pushing the current legislation to prevent such an occurrence.

As for the part about voting every year being a regulation, that is true in a sense but because it is only dealing with unions that are contracting with the government then this is really a policy of when the employer will or won't recognize them.

I realize that in some ways this systems like we are just arguing semantics but the difference between policy and regulation are important in one case the government is establishing its methods the others are restrictions placed upon the populace in general. The later being what the Tea Party has a problem with. I point this out because if you are going to attack them for hypocrisy, and I am right there behind you whenever we can find examples of it, then you must be clear about what they are trying to push forward. Otherwise you end up looking the bad guy or worse yet the village idiot as you beat down a straw man with everyone watching on. This is particularly bad because it also makes it seem like we aren't listening to the demands of, as much as we may wish it otherwise, is a significant portion of the population in regards to political leverage. It may seem a fair standard, but we have to do it cleaner and more transparently than the other guy.

[Bjorn Against]

31. I would see your point if they held the same position towards government contractors

Their tax dollars pay for government contractors the same way in which they pay for public employees, but if you try criticizing the pay of major defense contractor CEO's the tea party is accusing you of class warfare. Yes, there is hypocrisy in the tea party movement.

[du_da]

34. Different scenario

Using contractors is akin to purchasing a product on the market the Tea Party types couldn't care less if the product were made with union labor they only care that they pay a low price for the project while still getting the job done or the product delivered. There is a reason they go through a contract bid process, or in the case of quick turn around needs go through a bid process for the right to no bid contractors. In their mind buying planes from a contractor is no different than buying cars, except that they deal with the manufacturer directly because they are buying a fleet. Sure once you are in bed with them via a contract they can sometimes be a pain in the neck but you always have the capability to go with a different service provider should the need arise, and they build mechanisms into those contracts to handle that.

Where they are vulnerable on the issue of military spending and contractors are these issue of spending priorities in general and management of those contracts since they are notorious for letting these companies get away with inflating the costs once the project is underway. It seems like government contract managers missed that day in business management 101 where they go over factoring in spent costs.

So while those are good points to keep in the back of the mind, I don't think they are applicable here.

[Bjorn Against]

64. Yes it is different, the Tea Party supports tax dollars for billionaires

Yet they oppose tax dollars for the working class. They think teachers make too much money, but they have no problem with the money pulled in by the CEO of Halliburton who makes enough money to pay the salary of hundreds of teachers. Halliburton is a government contractor, we pay the CEO's salary and he gets that salary not through the bidding process but through no-bid contracts that were supported by many of the people in the Tea Party.

Yes there is a huge difference between our tax dollars going to support a middle class living for teachers and our tax dollars funding multi-millionaire corporate executives. As you say those are two very different scenarios, and it just so happens that our side supports the middle class while your side supports the millionaires. And please don't tell me it is not your side, you gave your self away when you called it a "good talking point" to say Obama is a Muslim.

[2banon]

47. it's corporate power vs worker power

that's the paradigm that seems to be forgotten in the rhetoric. this is and always shall be Class Warfare.

Theoretically, Government is supposed to represent the wishes of the people, ie. the workers who pay taxes in order for the people they voted in (government) to provide services for the benefit of the community (the people), Good schools, hospitals and medical services, fire and police, transportation and other services and infrastructure for the benefit of the community, that every person and family actually benefit from.

Unfortunately too often, (more often) the "elected" are actually pawns for the Corporation. The only interest the Corporation has is profit. People have no say in how Corporations shall be run, they do not hold elections by the people and for the people. If Corporations could, they would have workers that were not paid at all. But they do well enough with stagnate low wages here, and outsourced labor that are actually slaves.

For reasons I cannot understand, the good protesters and other progressives in this country fail to frame the issues in simple plain english, easy to understand and beautifully counters the bs from the Corporate shell groups (teabaggers).

[du_da]

59. Here's the untold secret about the opposition.

They don't believe class exists more or less that there is a war between them. This is actually at the core of our frustration, we keep asking why the people aren't up in arms. Well frankly they don't see the problem as we see it, and that is our fault. We are not doing a good job informing them.

As for the people and control over corporations. Let me ask this, how do corporations get the power to control the politicians? Where does that power come from since the corporation cannot themselves vote then there must be something else of value they have, a currency of some sort. From where does that "currency" originate?

You wonder why we aren't able to frame the issues it is simple, if we take the pure anti-corporate stance then we end up sounding like tin foil hat liberal version of Beck. Alternatively we might be on issue but for some reason can help but take the opportunity to insult the people we are talking too. At which point we get relegated too the corner as the uncle no one wants to introduce to the family friends.

To put it into a nutshell, until we can break away from the militant mindset of approaching politics then we are going to stay just about where we are. Always on the back burner of some major party. Enough to hold the attention of the people briefly from time to time but never a lasting voice.

[2banon]

63. The Currency is Money and Power.. what could be sweeter? nothing tin foil about this...

Let me ask this, how do corporations get the power to control the politicians? Where does that power come from since the corporation cannot themselves vote then there must be something else of value they have, a currency of some sort. From where does that "currency" originate?

Many (if not most) politicians are bought and paid for with huge somes of Corporate funding in addition to very well financed election enegineering vis a vis Corporate CEO's and other functionaries working together with not-for-profit, idiology-driven organizations to promote these politicians.

Once these people are in office, the Corporations get busy staffing the bought and paid for politicians office with their own law clerks to write up legislation that gets passed into law. And that's not even the end of it, it gets worse.

But that's the currency, plain and simple.

This has been going on for a long time and long ago exposed over and over and over again. It's the reason why our system is so corrupt. And now, since the Citizens United decision, it's going be all this on steroids.

Ordinary people do get this.. they just have to be reminded, constantly.. (apparently)

[barbtries]

38. here's a few things the teabaggers conveniently forget:

these are the people who educate our children
these are the people who come running when we have a traffic accident
these are the people who put out the fires
these are the people who collect our garbage
these are the people who maintain our roads and bridges
these are even the people we elected to REPRESENT us, not to run slipshod over us with their strong-arm tactics, pushing through specious legislation without even a discussion of the pros and cons

i realize that in wisconsin the governor exempted some of these unions as payback for their support for him during the election, but many of them are standing with the public employee union members in this action. it's like that old saying about the nazis, first they came for the jews...the writing is on the wall and some people get that.

just as the right seems to conveniently forget how they benefit from programs of social uplift and infrastructure building and maintenance, so they forget that all of these benefits are provided by people, who are also providing for families of their own. they don't want to pay taxes. but they never stop to think about what their taxes have bought them! they just don't think.

better we should all be protesting endless war, right wing media lies, and the obscene division of wealth in this declining democracy.

power to the PEOPLE.

[du_da]

41. All reasons to justify the compensation requested.

What is critical is that we understand their argument so we can craft our own arguments to address their concerns and point out the benefits. The point that I try so hard to make here in DU is that we do a really bad job of the communication process. Often because many of us are arrogant, but there are those in any group, but more often because we try to push forward from an emotional evaluation of our opposition instead of a logical one. This results in us charging headlong into a battle to fight it to just find that the enemy is somewhere else entirely. So, we have to start by understanding them. Not understanding what we think of them but actually understanding where they are coming from. Otherwise we are doomed to keep tilting at windmills.


You mention the fact that the Wisconsin governor exempted some of the unions for political payback. Let's work with that. Which is going to be more effective. Pointing out that this was for political payback or posing the question as if these cuts are so important why weren't these groups included? You get to the same end, but the method is very different and gives the point more legitimacy.

You also go on to talk about how they don't like to pay taxes for public services. Not a bad point. However, consider this. You ended that statement with "they just don't think." What do you think a reader who is not already on board with our message will take from your paragraph? Do you think they will remember your message or discard it and you because you couldn't help but make personal attacks.

That's the whole point, it is great to fight for a cause but if you aren't smart about how you fight you will loose (sorry, had to spell it that way for the net nannies). If we had the numbers to win this fight without convincing others to join then I would say lets go for it. Truth be told, not only are we not strong in numbers but we are doing a good job lately of driving away potential supporters through out methods.

[barbtries]

52. as if they would listen.

as if logic would have any bearing. come on.

[du_da]

55. And attacking them has gotten us where?

Do you realize that your dismissal of communication is a slap in the face for them because it is a continuation of all the times we call them stupid.

Ask yourself this, when they insult us how receptive are we to hearing them out?

The difference between the two situations is that for some reason our side is more quick to pull that trigger than their side seems to do and they have the benefit of already having the populace leaning toward their side. So, their starting point is a bit easier.

[barbtries]

60. attacking them??

give me a break.
i was at the rally in Raleigh NC today. two groups of people on opposite sides of the street. we held our rally. they stood and screamed at us.

i'm putting you on ignore. i doubt if you're even a democrat.

[du_da]

67. I never said they didn't

make similar mistakes. I said we have to do it smarter, cleaner, and more transparently than they do because we are held to a higher standard. The reason for this is that we are not as closely aligned with the starting point of the american people's views. We are trying to take them further out of their comfort zone to go down the path we think is best for the nation. Doing that means we have a higher standard to meet to win over the people.

[kenfrequed]

44. Wrong board I think.

This "held hostage" fear is the biggest PR bit of nonsense imaginable. American is at the lowest level of unionization in decades. This 'monopolization of contracts' is, therefore, not a valid complaint and should not be given any thought or acceptance.


If we start accepting the conservative union-busting here we may as well accept other stupid phrases like "Yes I am a democrat, but I'm fiscally conservative."

[du_da]

46. You are missing the point of my statement

It doesn't matter if there is legitimacy to their views. What matters is that those are their views and we have to understand what they are to combat them. We don't have to agree with them, we do have to pay attention to them though. Otherwise we end up fighting strawmen and getting ourselves nowhere.

Of course you can go ahead and continue not giving their views any thought or acceptance. Let me ask this, how well has that worked out in convincing others to join our cause? We can't do this without the fence sitters and each time to stick your nose up to the opposition you just push a few more off the fence toward the other side.

[walldude]

51. We have to understand their views...

Unions suck.
Teachers are overpaid.
Obama is a muslim.
I don't want to pay any taxes.
It's better to let private corporations run everything.
America is the Greatest.
We are fighting for our Freedom.
There is a terrorist around every corner.
Illegal Immigrants are ruining this country.

Here's what the Tea Party has planned for Wisconsin:

"Our goal is to make the gathering look as greedy and goonish as we know that it is, ding their credibility with the media and exploit the lazy reporters who just want dramatic shots and outrageous quotes for headlines. Even if it becomes known that we are plants the quotes and pictures will linger as defacto truth.

They can't find anyone "greedy or goonish" so they are going to go down there and do it themselves.

Now according to you I am supposed to... what? Understand that mentality? Understand their thoughts? Give creedence to lunacy? No thanks.

[du_da]

54. And "no thanks" gets you the 2010 election.

Is that really what we want to see.


Let's review your illustration of their views shall we:

Unions suck. - Not that they care less if unions exist. They just don't want to be forced to deal with them. However, if others want to that is their choice.

Teachers are overpaid. - This is a group of people who believe in the free market, doesn't it make sense that they would also support market based valuation?

Obama is a muslim. - Good talking point to gin up the crowd but at the end of the day they couldn't care less. The reason this is even an issue is that they think he is soft on muslims for their tolerance of the extremists.

I don't want to pay any taxes. - They don't believe in income taxes because it equates to government ownership of their labor. We may not agree with them, but that's a valid point. Note, also you say they don't want to pay any taxes. Did you miss the point that they are the group pushing the so called "fair tax" plan and support usage based taxes?

It's better to let private corporations run everything. - Private companies do not have the authorized use of force, government does. Only government can force participation. Also, they do not hold this view on everything they simply have a different list of things that only the government can handle than we do.

America is the Greatest. - Ya ya, like all our politicians don't say the same thing

We are fighting for our Freedom. - In their eyes they are since they are working against the authority of the entity with a monopoly on use of force. Freedom is the absence of force of threat of force to curtail action.

There is a terrorist around every corner. - They don't believe that and you know it

Illegal Immigrants are ruining this country. - Their problem with illegal immigrants is the illegal part. These are people who actually believe in the US as a nation of laws because in their mind a strict enforcement of that ideal is the only way to keep government in check.


So what we have are your very jaded interpretations of them which has no baring on reality, and we wonder why these people won't listen to us. We are our own worst enemy.

The tragedy in the list you provided is that there are areas in that list where we can make headway and bring the national discussion more into line with our priorities but efforts to try to paint the opposition as crazy do more harm than good and now we have to fight and claw just to get anyone to hear us more or less listen.

[Bjorn Against]

62. So you think it is a "good talking point" to say Obama is a Muslim?

You have a problem with us criticizing the Tea Party's embrace of regulation when it comes to unions, but when Tea Party members straight up lie and call Obama a Muslim you think it is a "good talking point". You try to pretend to be one of us by telling me in a previous post "good points to keep in the back of the mind", but suggest we should never take them out of the back of our minds and actually express our opinions firmly. You think we should hold back on our criticism of the tea party out of fear of alienating others, but when the tea party members not only lie but express straight up bigotry in calling Obama a Muslim well that is just a fine talking point in your opinion.

You tell us in post 55 that "our side is more quick to pull that trigger than their side seems to do and they have the benefit of already having the populace leaning toward their side." You do realize that their heroes are Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann don't you? And you think our side is too quick to pull the trigger, while their side is much more measured in what they say?

I think I know the real reason that you don't want us criticizing the Tea Party, and it is not because you want us to get more people on our side.

[LanternWaste]

57. Approximately with the same success rate...

"Let me ask this, how well has that worked out in convincing others to join our cause? "

Approximately with the same success rate as attempting to hold a reasonable dialog with them... :shrug:

[Matariki]

19. Great post. And I pray you are correct.

[teacher gal]

21. Thank you for sharing

the hope and excitement.

[rasputin1952]

25. What happens in WI will have an effect across the country...

This is not about making budget moves, it's about breaking down collective bargaining. The people of WI are behind the people who provide them services, often risking their lives to do so...we are witnessing more than just civil servant/teacher pay...this is about survival of the Unions vs the insane Teabagger movement...the Unions must prevail, and I believe they will. I also think that the Governor of WI has backed himself into a corner and is so damn arrogant, he won't back down, at least not for a while...I also think he'll be recalled in January, along with several WI R's that pushed this monstrosity.

[Le Taz Hot]

26. Thanks for that first-hand account.

Very encouraging, however, I got on DU this morning and the first thing I read was that the Union head was calling for teachers to go back to work.:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4740805

You were there. What do you think? Will they go back to work or continue the sick out?

[Bjorn Against]

32. I think most will go back to work on Tuesday...

That does not mean that they are giving into the governor however, people are still going to be active for weeks to come. They will go back to work until Walker tries to push them again, but if there are any major negative developments there will be another walkout.

[Le Taz Hot]

33. I have to say,

I'm sorry to hear that. They have a momentum going. If you lose it, it may never come back. You have the backing of the world. Understand, I'm saying this 2,000 miles away in my nice, warm home in California, so there is that . . . :blush:

[Bjorn Against]

37. I wish it would go on for longer too...

I would like it if the teachers would stay out of work until the Governor backed off, but we also have to realize that these people's jobs are on the line. If they don't go back they could end up getting fired, and while I have tremendous respect for them for putting their jobs on the line I can understand that some of them may feel that they can only carry this so far. Even if the teachers do go back however there will still be people at the Capitol 24 hours a day, this thing is not ending any time soon and the momentum is on our side and will remain on our side.

[lunatica]

27. Thank you for sharing this!

[OneGrassRoot]

28. Thank you! :) K&R n/t

[dotymed]

29. This should morph

into a national protest that has people before profits as its' main theme. We, the 95%, deserve to run our government, not the ruling elie.

[Enthusiast]

30. K&R nt

[barbtries]

35. thank you bjorn

for going, and caring, and sharing your hope with us. :yourock:

[tomp]

36. you have to wonder about the legitimacy of a vote....

....that elected walker but can only put several thousand at best in the street at this decisive moment.

[defendandprotect]

49. Exactly -- could we please get back to focusing on COMPUTERS????

Koch Bros would set up John Birch Society --

Create Dick Armey/Freedom Works -- pay for the T-BAGGERS and running them out of a

PR company to keep the spotlight on them --

but they wouldn't give any thought to hacking computers?

Who's electing these jerks/fascists? I don't see that it's the American public!!

These computers began coming in during the late 1960's -- I'd question every election

back to Nixon/Humphrey!


ALSO REMEMBER THE LARGE COMPUTERS -- THEY CAME IN DURING MID-1960'S -- AND THEY GAVE

MSM NEW POWERS TO PREDICT AND CALL ELECTIONS -- PREDICT AND CALL ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES --

CALL STATES FOR PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES -- AND FINALLY TO CALL A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION --

NAME THE NEW PRESIDENT!! WHAT WE SAW IN 2000 WAS SIMPLY A REVERSAL OF THOSE NEW POWERS!!




See: Votescam - The Stealing of America -- an investigation in the 1960's by two Florida

journalists -- the investigation began given the very questionable results that started to

be seen -- and upon checking computer information, the results didn't pan out.

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

This website is kept up by the journalists' family -- the paperback book is available for

about $3 here and there! But you can read most of it at the website.

[deacon]

39. Fantastic post! Great job. K + R

[swilton]

40. Thanks for being there and sharing

with those of us who are there in spirit!

[Raksha]

42. K & R - May I repost this on another forum?

I'm asking permission because it's so beautifully written I'd like to post it in its entirety.

[Bjorn Against]

43. Go for it.

[ScottLand]

45. Scott Walker really rallied the workers!

Thanks, Governor Walker, for making our unions stronger!

[defendandprotect]

48. T-BAGGERS are aggressive, even violent -- dismissive of democracy -- Koch Bros' fake --

We have to continue to make that CONTRAST clear!!

[SargassoSea]

50. WI rocks! n/t

[obxhead]

53. A couple of points.

First I'm glad to read that the youth turnout is high. I'm sure they are there for various reasons, but the fact is this law may very well affect them in the near future as they enter the job market. It is good for them to stand up for their future.

Second, the Tea Party was never a real movement. Yeah they had a few gatherings, but the only real "movement" about them was their portrayal in the MSM. Without the news covering them endlessly for the last 2 years nobody would have even heard of the damn thing.

[Bjorn Against]

66. In response to your points...

1. You are correct that they are there for varying reasons and I am sure a good number of them do think of this as something they need to do to stand up for their own future. As important as labor issues are however I have a hard time believing that unions are the top issue on the minds of young people. This is an issue that most kids think very little about which makes me think they are not doing this for personal reasons as much as they are doing it to help out others in need and that is truly impressive.

2. While I do consider the Tea Party to be a movement they are certainly not a grassroots movement, they have much more in common with a bowel movement.

[Uzybone]

56. kudo to the Democrats, union members and others who stand for the people

[Mac Adams]

58. Proud of my state again

The ongoing budget bill protests make me proud of my state again (I lost it for a while when we didn't re-elect Fiengold, and elected Walker), and I want the 14 dems hiding in Illinios to keep it up.

[upi402]

61. Cenk on MSNBC is imploring Obama to get involved

Pretty passionate! Pretty persuasive.
:patriot:
Rendel says Obama should stay out cuz it shouldn't be an ideological battle.
But! if this ain't one, there ain't one! It IS ideological. It IS class warfare!

[Taverner]

65. Yes. You. Did, !