Help debunk this anti-public worker e-mail.

[Enthusiast]

I received the following e-mail from a right leaning relative. I assume these kinds of e-mails are making the rounds. The following sounds like a fabrication to me. Please give me some specifics so I can fight back.



NO WONDER THESE PUBLIC EMPLOYEES CAN BE PROTESTING AND MISS DAYS OF WORK, LOOK AT THESE SALARIES!!!

Subject: FW: 2010 Teacher Actual Wages - Govt wages exposed

ATTACHED: This is the official excel DPI database of teachers wages by school district. Look up your own district !!!

The current budget repair bill would have them paying about 5.8% towards their own retirement....right now, we the taxpayer, pay 100% of their generous retirement, and most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too.

AVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS
(remember this is for about 185 DAYS OF WORK!)

TEACHERS:

Milwaukee $86,297

Elmbrook $91,065

Germantown $83,818

Hartland Arrowhead $90,285
(highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942)

Men. Falls $81,099

West Bend $82,153

Waukesha $92,902

Sussex $82,956

Mequon $95,297

Kettle Mor $87,676

Muskego $91,341

STAFF:

Arrowhead - Bus Mgr - Kopecky - $169,525

Arrowhead - Principal - Wieczorek
$152,519

Germantown - Asst Prin. - Dave Towers - $123,222

Elmbrook - Burliegh Elemetary - Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!)

Madison - Asst Principal - McGrath - $127,835

UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF(2009) (salary alone):

Michael Knetter - Prof of Bus - $327,828

Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000

Hector Deluca - Prof of Nutritional Science - $254,877 (really??)

(source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?)

How about some other "public servant jobs"??? What do they make?

Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only):

* Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay.

* Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598

* 7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000

* 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000

MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only):

136 Drivers made more than $70,000

54 Drivers made more than $80,000

18 Drivers made more than $90,000

8 Drivers made more than $100,000. Top Driver made $117,000 (Source WTMJ)

(The average private bus driver makes $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare).

AND WE ARE SUPPOSED TO CONTINUE PAYING 100% OF THEIR GENEROUS RETIREMENT

THEY HAVE SHUT DOWN SCHOOLS AS THEY DON'T WANT TO PAY 5.8% OF IT THEMSELVES ....REALLY?

Please send to everyone you know....

Thomas Jefferson said:

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

[bluestateguy]

1. Damn straight garbage men should make over 70 grand a year

That's dangerous and back breaking work, and there is exposure to dangerous waste, rats and disease.

[TheWraith]

5. Maybe $70k in a city, but out here that's as much as a family with two good incomes makes.

Wages and values aren't universal.

[ingac70]

2. Principals and Assistant principals aren't union represented.

I wish fuckin' idiots would learn what they are talking about before opening their mouths!

[Enthusiast]

15. Fuckin' idiots never learn,

that's why they're idiots.

[MissB]

3. They've already agreed to the benefit and pension concessions.

They're only protesting over losing bargaining rights.

Of course there will be some folks making more than others. I suspect that some of the garbage man/bus driver salaries include overtime, not base salary.

Teachers often have master degrees, which in some states can lead to higher salaries. Would the idiots on your email list prefer to have them replaced with minimum wage workers fresh from McDonalds? Or do they actually value education and want our kids to be able to compete in a global market?

[Enthusiast]

17. The idiots on your email list

aren't really on my e-mail list -only one. And yes, they can't comprehend that level of wages because they aren't educated. I get feedback from the ignorant. I know how they think. They have a two family income making $41,000/year and believe themselves to be upper income.

[some guy]

4. I'd reply:

". . . most of us pay 100% of our own retirement too. " is incorrect.
For most of us, retirement is Social Security plus anything else we managed to save over the years. Most of us pay 7.5 % of wages toward Social Security, and our employers also pay 7.5%, so we only pay 50% of our own retirement.

the Jefferson quote is also inaccurate, see below:

http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/Wasting_the_labours_of_the_people

"if we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy." - Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 29 November 1802<1>

Note: This passage has often been mis-quoted as, "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Ford and L&B have also slightly mis-transcribed the original text as, "If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy."


A quick glance at this missive and I find two inaccuracies. What else have you got wrong? Please verify all your asserton before resending this to me.

thank you.

[Obamanaut]

20. I think the burden of social security payments is actually 100% on the employee.

IIRC, a self employed person pays the entire 15%. I would imagine an employer figures the portion he must pay as part of the cost of hiring an employee, and reduced to salary by that amount to compensate for his (the employer's) 7.5% portion.

[hay rick]

6. You can download the uncherrypicked info here:

link: http://dpi.state.wi.us/lbstat/newasr.html

The school districts referenced are predictably the highest on the list. The numbers given are for wages and benefits added together. So Milwaukee, for example, shows an average wage of $56,095 and benefits valued at $30,202. The benefits in Milwaukee are among the most expensive in the state. Another example (not from their list): Madison- $52,022 and $23,536. The spreadsheet also provides the information that the lowest teacher's salary in Madison is $33,242 and the highest is $79,196. The average total experience of a Madison teacher is 14.21 years. One more example, Portage: $50,465 salary, $20,709 benefits.

[sufrommich]

7. It looks like it started with this conservative columnist,if

you look through the comments,he gets called on it:

http://www.examiner.com/county-conservative-in-milwaukee/are-wisconsin-teachers-really-underpaid-1

I didn't look at the link provided in the comments, but the columnist answers back basically" regardless of the facts, my last three paragraphs are true".

It's always important to be armed with facts, because these right wing emails spread like wildfire, truth be damned.

[kevinbgoode]

12. I started to respond to that bogus "columnist"

whose main credentials seem to be little more than the ability to support right wing talking points. Boring.

Anyway, I started to write this, but went far over the limit so ended up just erasing it:

Now Frank - you were a teacher. And if you taught in the public schools, you know that you had to return some of your salary every year to the rest of the taxpayers - in taxes. So shouldn't you be deducting the tax percentages from those salaries/benefits packages? After all, private employers don't require their employees to return a percentage of their salary every year. And since public employees are taxpayers too, they are essentially paying a portion of their own salary every year. That part isn't profit.

Perhaps we could assist corporations whose patriotism demands that they seek ways to be exempt from taxes by instituting a nice leveling "right-to-work convenience fee" to be assessed by the employer each year on every employee. The company could use this money to perhaps pay some taxes (though I'm sure it would disappear into bonuses or campaign contributions) and then private employees could enjoy the benefits of returning part of their salary to their employer each year too.
One wonders why conservatives didn't consider - given their commitment to being "taxed enough already" - recommending that Walker offer some tax forgiveness or credits to public employees in return for increasing their benefit contributions.

That's right - the state is broke. This is one reason why the taxpayers - ALL of them, not just the ones conservatives recognize for political purposes - should have a vested interest in approving any tax breaks/abatements/forgiveness/waivers to companies. We should not leave it up to the legislature to hand out money that isn't there and then pass the bill along to whichever group of long-term taxpayers the government wants to choose to demonize. And one would think a patriotic company would be embarassed to seek tax incentives in order to locate in a broken state.

[sufrommich]

28. I responded too, this was mine:

The link you're providing as a "proof" of your assertions is a link to public school salaries (which,by the way,seem to prove your allegations wrong) there is nothing there about garbage men or bus drivers. Where is your information coming from?


I don't think he's keen on answering too many questions.

[EstimatedProphet]

29. Jesus Christ, what a birdcage liner that page is!

It's like it was written directly by Roger Ailes! Look at the other columns there: "Sarah Palin: Qualified", "Wisconsin teachers throw tantrum, Walker stands firm", "Obama's failed foreign policies". Yuck.

[shraby]

8. Did you try google?

[PDJane]

9. Average teacher's wages are nowhere near those listed.

For instance, the average by state is here:

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state. That lists the average beginning and ten years in salaries. Frankly, they're nowhere near the above salaries.

I might point out that Arrowhead is a VERY large, highly-rated high school that hires only teachers with a Master's degree and fifteen years' experience. They should be paid for their work, and the salaries don't seem outrageous to me.

The article that points out the bus drivers' salaries also points out that they are able to make those salaries due to overtime. That overtime is necessary because the authority cut the number of drivers to save money!! (And there are only four drivers who make more than 100,000 per annum.) http://milwaukeelive.blogspot.com/2008/05/milwaukee-county-bus-drivers-100000.html

Yes, that's poor management. Yes, that's the current functioning business model; cut workers to save money. Except you can't outsource driving jobs. So.....that's the fault of a management with their head stuck firmly up their collective ass. Do they have any idea how much work those drivers have to perform for that money????

I want to know where they found these figures, because I haven't been able to find a reputable source.

[sufrommich]

10. There is no reliable source, these right wing emails never have

a reliable source,that's not their point.The point is to spread the lies to as many people as possible knowing that most of them won't bother asking for proof.

[Enthusiast]

13. I agree. They don't seem outrageous to me either.

I appreciate your efforts and the efforts of all the other responders to the OP.

[roxiejules]

11. Dog Eat Dog

Since the real criminals responsible for the financial collapse are protected by the best attorneys and spin doctors, apparently that leaves the easier target of blaming the guy next door whose pension is better than 'yours'. Never giving any thought to how tragic the race-to-the-bottom in wages will end up for all of us....except the ruling class.

You want to win elections, you bang on the jailable class. You build prisons and fill them with people for selling dime bags and stealing CD players. But for stealing a billion dollars? For fraud that puts a million people into foreclosure? Pass. It's not a crime. Prison is too harsh. Get them to say they're sorry, and move on. Oh, wait — let's not even make them say they're sorry. That's too mean; let's just give them a piece of paper with a government stamp on it, officially clearing them of the need to apologize, and make them pay a fine instead. But don't make them pay it out of their own pockets, and don't ask them to give back the money they stole. In fact, let them profit from their collective crimes, to the tune of a record $135 billion in pay and benefits last year.

- Matt Taibbi

BTW: The 7 bus drivers who earned over $100K were paid for overtime - which is mandated by Federal law, not unions.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt_and_politics/article_24af32d4-13f4-11df-86b2-001cc4c002e0.html

[Enthusiast]

14. Divide and conquer. Isn't that they way

they always accomplish dominance over working people?

"Never giving any thought to how tragic the race-to-the-bottom in wages will end up for all of us....except the ruling class."

[roxiejules]

23. The Century of Self

Maybe you should forward the link for the (2002) BBC dcoumentary, The Century of the Self.

This series is about how those in power have used Freud's theories to try and control the masses - and politicians appeal to irrational, primitive impulses that have little apparent bearing on issues outside of the narrow self-interest of a consumer population.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dA89CBBOC0&feature=player_embedded - Watch all 4 Episodes here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self

[Enthusiast]

25. Thanks. I found that interesting. nt

[joshcryer]

16. Remove whoever sent that to you from your contacts. Problem resolved.

Just being cheeky.

[joeunderdog]

18. Give them a CEO salary list.

Or how about the Fortune 500 list along with the layoffs in their companies.

Talk about the average salary of the bomb-makers who got the rich because of the 1-2 trillion$ in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and how these fake wars are why the Pukes have the little people fighting for the scraps while they eat caviar. This problem is not about teachers--it's wholly caused by the tax breaks for the rich and the illegal occupations.

[Enthusiast]

19. Thanks. Nice post.

They don't want to see that CEO list, lol.

[Brickbat]

21. It's a very common anti-union tactic to list wages and benefits together, to make it look like the

wages are inflated.

As far as the city bus drivers are concerned -- if the union one has a wage and benefits package of $70K, and the "average private bus driver" makes $9-13, who's the dumbass here? Why doesn't the private bus driver do something to improve his life, like ORGANIZE, instead of begrudge the $70K driver?

After all, anyone in this country can improve his own lot, right? Isn't that what we're told?

[baldguy]

22. These are all very difficult jobs which all require a great deal of skill.

And either extensive knowledge & training, or back-breaking physical labor. Why shouldn't they be paid well?

[Enthusiast]

26. I agree, of course. nt

[HereSince1628]

24. Why should jealousy negate union bargaining?

American professional athletes make millions per year but still need unions to protect themselves from owners.

If the t-bagger is unhappy with his/her income, maybe the t-bagger should join or form a union.

[Enthusiast]

27. Ideally, the Tea Party would

recognize that organized labor is a great asset to workers in this nation. Of course since the Tea Party is entirely an astro turf corporate created phenomenon this isn't possible. Very sad for the members of the Tea Party that have been so thoroughly indoctrinated that they don't recognize the ulterior purpose they serve.

[JustinL]

30. politifact debunked a similar right-wing claim yesterday

Fox News' Eric Bolling claimed that Wisconsin teachers received an average compensation of $89,000, compared with an average of $48,000 for all workers in the United States. He then "corrected" himself, saying that the correct figures were $81,000 and $66,000, respectively. Politifact responded as follows:

But many statisticians have a more fundamental issue with Bolling's comparison. In order to be a teacher in Wisconsin, you've got to have a 4-year college degree. And 52 percent of Wisconsin teachers also have a master's degree. That's much, much higher than the average education level for workers in the private sector. People with higher degrees in education typically get paid more.

...

A report titled "Out of Balance" by two University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee professors for the National Institute of Retirement Security, whose board is largely composed of representatives of public employee pensions, found that when "comparable earning determinants," such as education, are considered, state employees typically earn salaries 11 percent lower than their private sector counterparts. When you consider total compensation -- salary plus benefits -- the deficit dropped to 6.8 percent (because public employees generally get better benefits packages than those in the private sector)

...

Another report, by the liberal Economic Policy Institute, found that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8 percent less in total compensation than comparable private-sector workers.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/feb/23/eric-bolling/fox-business-news-eric-bolling-says-wisconsin-teac/

[Enthusiast]

31. Thank you, JustinL.

Politifact often gets stuff wrong. As in the following-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGmxquSfDu8