In the Clinton Years, the IT Industry should have unionized

[Taverner]

Back then was when IT held the upper hand. We were almost like magicians, knowing a skill no one else did - and back then companies payed DEARLY for us.

But there were too many South Park Libertarians who grew up thinking 'Unions are bad' and that social interaction of any kind was to be avoided at all costs.

So it never happened, and hello call centers in India. Not only have they killed the American IT industry, they make shows joking about it ('Outsourced' anyone?)

[somone]

1. Could not agree more

[tridim]

2. IT went to hell in 2000, I was there.

My salary went from $90k per year to literally zero in less than a decade.

You're right, pre-2000 was the time to unionize, but I don't think anyone really knew what was coming. The jobs were too cushy back then.

[apnu]

27. So was I... I wasn't making your dough, but I remember when the bottom fell out.

I also remember attempts at forming some unions, none of the sys and net admins took it seriously and the idea died with a whimper.

Now its way too late for it to happen.

[LiberalEsto]

3. 100% agree

My husband is an IT professional, one of the few remaining American citizens working in IT at his company. He once organized a union in a NJ glass factory, and got fired for it. He would gladly have joined an IT workers union, but didn't want to risk his career with 2 kids to raise.

If he were paid for every unpaid overtime hour that he's put in during the course of a 27-year career, we would have been able to save for retirement, and paid for our kids' college. Instead, he's exhausted, stressed out, and rarely even sees daylight during the winter months, except on weekends.

[JDPriestly]

25. California IT personnel are exempt from certain protections of the labor regulations if they

earn over a certain hourly wage.

50.3 Employees Exempted From Orders Generally:
1. Employees primarily “engaged in” administrative, executive, or professional
capacities are exempt from Sec tion 3 through 12 of the O rders. (IWC O rders,
Section 1, Applicability of Order)
a) In determining which activities constitute exempt work and for examples
of exempt and non-exempt job duties, the IWC has chosen to utilize the
provisions of certain specified federa l regulations. These regulations are
discussed below. It is very important to note that not all of the sections of
the federal regulations are specified and, thus some are not applicable.
Care must be taken to determine which federal regulations may be relied
on.
. . . .
6. Employees in computer software fields will be exempt from the overtime
requirem ents* of the Orders if they:
DIVISION OF LABOR STANDARDS ENFORCEMENT
ENFORCEMENT POLICIES AND INTERPRETATIONS MANUAL
a. earn thirty-six dollars ($36.00) per hour for each hour worked, to be adjusted annually
by the Division of Labor Statistics and Research (DLSR) on October 1 of each year to
become effective January 1 of the following year by an amount equal to the
percentage increase in the California Consumer Price Index for Urban Wage Earners
and Clerical Workers. This adjustment will be posted on the DLSR website annually,
and.
b. are primarily engaged in work that is intellectual or creative and requires the exercise
of discretion and independent judgment, and
c. meet the duties test set out at Section 2(h)(ii) of the Orders, and
d. are highly skilled and proficient in the theoretical and practical application of highly
specialized information to computer systems analysis, programming, and software
engineering within the meaning of Labor Code § 515.5 and exceptions thereto as
defined in Labor Code § 515.5(b).

IT people could have used a union. They work incredibly long hours in a stretch sometimes under stressful and unhealthy conditions.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/DLSEManual/dlse_enfcmanual.pdf

[wtmusic]

4. Are call centers IT jobs?

I thought you meant programming.

American IT is far from dead, but it certainly demands a more comprehensive skill set.

[OhioChick]

5. Agreed n/t

[undeterred]

6. Should we have held hands with the H1B workers and sang songs?

[Taverner]

35. To be honest, IT folks would have rather held hands with H1B workers than our managers

Who didn't know shit about tech, but knew how to serve the bottom line

[AndyTiedye]

37. Not Much Chance of Getting the H1b's to Join a Union

They could be sent home for even uttering the word.

[Kennah]

7. There is too much effete snobbery in IT to unionize

We call ourselves "engineers", but I've seen more software that looked more like it was excreted rather than engineered.

What we do is more like craftsmanship than engineering, and I think we rank last when compared to other trades and crafts.

A union would enable project managers to truly facilitate projects rather than be the bullies with the big sticks to beat people.

[wtmusic]

8. Rank last in what regard? nt

[Kennah]

10. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, and other trades and crafts

[RagAss]

30. I've been in IT for 25 years and I agree with you.

There's a lot of shit code out there running this country. It would take 2 generations of trained COBOL programmers to fix it...and they just don't teach COBOL anywhere, anymore.

[AndyTiedye]

41. Software Engineering is Newer Than All Those Other Trades

We call ourselves "engineers", but I've seen more software that looked more like it was excreted rather than engineered.

But you do not write software like that, do you?

What we do is more like craftsmanship than engineering,

There are elements of both. There can be elements of art as well.

All of which is beside the point. The whole union discussion is equally applicable to any other kind of engineering.

and I think we rank last when compared to other trades and crafts.

That is inevitable, because IT is hundreds of years newer than the trades with which you compare it.

A union would enable project managers to truly facilitate projects rather than be the bullies with the big sticks to beat people.

Good managers facilitate projects. I have been fortunate enough to work mostly for good managers.
Nothing can make a bully into a good manager, but a union could limit the damage a bad one can do.

[jeff47]

9. Not gonna happen

Part of the geek personality is to 'do it yourself' on everything. Even if the result is well below what you can buy.

Unionization would require letting someone else do it for them.

[Taverner]

11. No, I'm saying it didn't happen

[jeff47]

14. Yes, and I'm saying it won't happen in the future, either. (nt)

[Taverner]

32. Too late now

[rbixby]

16. Not only that, but we'd have to go outside to picket....

and we'd all be blinded by the sunlight

[jeff47]

26. Outside?

You mean the big room with the blue ceiling?

[Matariki]

12. Tried out here in Washington and it backfired

WashTech tried. I think there are now laws against IT people unionizing. The work WashTech did to get long term contractors equal benefits from companies like Microsoft, led to those companies hiring contractors for a year, laying them off for three months, then hiring them back. This way they avoid having to pay any benefits. On the other hand they have to pay hourly wages and considering how they tend to overwork their permanent employees, perhaps that's a plus.

[leftstreet]

19. Not to mention the overtime exempt laws

JEEBUS I remember all that!

:grr:

[JDPriestly]

28. The terrible work requirements for IT people are precisely why

they needed a strong, strong union. Please note my post above quoting the California exemption from certain labor protections for IT people earning above a certain amount. Other requirements also define the exempt IT personnel.

[RagAss]

31. Laws against it??

[Matariki]

38. Don't quote me on that. I don't know.

I had friends who we're very active with WashTech when they were trying to help IT workers. I remember asking about joining a union for IT workers and being discouraged with the answer. My memory is that because of state law there are no IT unions - but my memory is very possibly incorrect about that. Unfortunately, a lot of IT workers here are annoyed with the action WashTech took that led to companies laying contractors off every year. I think the anger is misplaced.

[comtec]

13. IBEW here in the bay area is the IT guild now

If I had known that before I left for europe you can be damned sure I would have joined.

Here's another factoid people NOT in the wold-west of the boom would not know:
it was fucking BRUTAL to get a permanent job. at least for me I and everyone else I knew at the time was a contractor, bouncing all over silicon valley from job to job.

We couldn't unionize because there was no cohesiveness, and everyone was in a instantly-fireable position!

Unions are for perm. workers, not contractors. that's just he harsh reality of it all.

and let me tell you it wasn't just fucking harsh, it was BRUTAL!

Someone up-thread said "it's the geek mentality" well FUCK YOU ASSHOLE!!!!!

We geeks tend to stay to ourselves BECAUSE OF ASSHOLES LIKE YOU!!!

It's true herding geeks can be like herding cats. Thing is, we were right, for a very long time. Only thing is the rules changed mid-game...and no one told us.

You can't plan a winning strategy when the rules keep changing.
the boom was like a massive game of musical chairs. and if you were left when the music finally stopped...

[Serve The Servants]

22. Unless things have changed considerably in the last couple of years

IBEW is hardly what I would consider an IT union, at least local 551. Electricians and low voltage Telecom techs sure, but in the 10 years I've been working in this industry the only IT people I met that were in the union were required to be in order to work on a union job with a union company - very rare indeed. At the time I last worked as a tech for a Networking company, IBEW offered absolutely nothing in terms of training in computer systems or networking aside from cabling. Again this could have changed in the last few years, so I could be wrong now.

[slampoet]

15. I tried to do at my Dot.com and the IT guys resisted every step.....

...collectively they lost MILLIONS on the stock options and many declared bankruptcy.

[Xenotime]

17. Many IT 'professionals' are just scam artists. They say they can do one thing and then can't

[closeupready]

24. That was true in the 90's, but I don't think that's so true anymore.

Back during the tech boom, as long as you had a pulse, you could find work in IT. But with the labor market the way it is now, not so much; you have to prove you know what you're talking about.

[Serve The Servants]

18. Can't recommend this enough!

As a Network Engineer currently looking for work this post definitely hits home. After getting laid off in '08 I have spent the last couple of years freelancing and just getting by, but I have a job interview on Tuesday for a full time position so wish me luck.

K&R

[ipfilter]

20. I'm the odd duck.

I'm IT but I'm also a member of the International Machinist and Aerospace Workers. When I tell people I'm union they don't believe me.

IT really needs an apprentice/journeyman/master system like trade unions instead of the bullshit paper certification system. That would separate the wheat from the chaff.

[closeupready]

21. Yup. To some extent, they were their own worst enemies.

nt

[JDPriestly]

23. Best post of the day. Had IT people formed unions as did

plumbers and other tradesmen, they would have changed the course of US history.
That is a lesson to be learned for the future.

When alternative energy opens up, we need to make sure that the employees of the energy companies are union members.

[DBoon]

29. a craft union would be great

medical benefits that don't depend on the employer. You quit or lose your job, you don't need to go on expensive Cobra coverage that expires after 18 months anyway

a portable pension would be very nice, too. Nobody stays long enough at an employer to vest in anything anymore. Most 401(k) plans suck

I think an IT union could also provide legal representation over things like ownership of intellectual property, fight no-compete agreements, etc. Many companies think they can own anything you do off-hours. You work on an open source project or write some shareware, they think they own it. Also leverage to fight age discrimination cases, etc.

Also, provide affordable quality training instead of the overpriced certification scams - sort of like what some trades do

[Taverner]

33. Add to that sexual harassment policies rarely apply to IT managers

According to them, Sexual Harassment policies only mean firing anyone looking at porn while on the job

But they can feel free to degrade, demean, ignore and eventually fire any women in IT.

One company I worked for - I won't name who but you'd recognize the name - had a habit of taking any IT projects developed by female staff away from them and given to men. I've even the CEO of said company to regularly ask the lone female IT person in the group to 'go out and get coffee so we can work'

And they can't complain - they lose their job. Sexual Harassment laws don't apply to managers, just people looking at porn

[HipChick]

50. As the sole IT female in my dept...I was routinely told that the place for women was in the bedroom

or kitchen, and not taking a man's job..

[Taverner]

51. Your experience is common

I have also known Female IT Managers who were brilliant, and had the full support of her staff behind her, be summarily fired to put a man in that place.

Many factions of sexism in that role

Although I've also known some very SUCCESSFUL (money wise and talent wise) Female IT Managers/Engineers/Administrators who were revered for their intelligence and aptitude.

[madinmaryland]

34. The only IT folks I have seen unionized were in NYC. This was in the late 80's and the 90's.

I don't know if there are any now. Most of them were from the old telecom's and had moved up and remained in the union.

The IT folks I meet now, don't seem to have a clue that unions exist and have no interest in them.

[AndyTiedye]

36. How Would Unions Have Prevented the Companies from Sending Jobs Offshore?

The flow of jobs overseas is endemic, consuming union and non-union jobs alike.

How would unions have prevented it in IT when they failed to do so in so many other industries?

social interaction of any kind was to be avoided at all costs.

All the engineers who have any kind of "people skills" get sucked into management.

The rest of us really aren't very good at that sort of thing.

[Serve The Servants]

39. I have found in the IT industry being an extrovert can get you more work

and as long as you have the skill set to do your job efficiently. Being good looking is a plus as well.

I have seen customers request that extremely knowledgeable and proficient techs not return to their office simply due to the fact that they came off as one of the "Creepy, cave-dweller types."

[HipChick]

49. Agree..sometimes IT skills with social skills

in one resource are simply lacking

[upi402]

40. Those folks touted outsourcing as a corporate model

...until their damn jobs were outsourced. I actually felt joy when one hardcore corporatist lost his job to India. Changed his tune.

[Taverner]

42. Not all of us - lots of us knew 'outsourcing' was a bad thing

Especially how they tried to sell it to us

"Look - this isn't stealing your job - its just giving you more help! You guys always complain about backlog!"

[upi402]

43. Cool. Question...

Would you say many drank the KoolAid, or that few bought-in? This guy was in Cali, BTW, not Kansas or Alabama.

[Taverner]

44. Three types: (1) They knew this was bad news. This was the majority

(2) They either drank the Kool-Aid or they pretended to, and thus got to go to Bangalore for a week to train our replacements. A good 20%
(3) Happy to NOT be in India, working for what they were going to pay our replacements. These were the H1B guys, and in most cases were in it with us.

[upi402]

45. Thanks, I thought it was more. In my field..

about 35-40% are Republicans but in a union -when they could easily work non-union for less. And this in the most liberal county in a blue state. It may actually be less because the Republicans are more boisterous.

[Taverner]

46. Well, this was a tech support floor

I consider that part of IT, and I do think it should be paid HOURLY. There were many nights I stayed late helping out one of our "Named" Accounts. As if other accounts were unnamed or something.

[AndyTiedye]

48. It Was the Managers Who Touted Outsourcing, Engineers Don't Do "Corporate Models"

[uponit7771]

47. AMEN!!! I am the ONLY US citizen on a team of 30!!! Displacement is rampent and obvious