A Message From Libya To President Obama, PM Cameron & Others Considering Intervention (Photo)

[Turborama]

Courtesy of: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-1


ETA these related OPs...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4751667">Pentagon: moving forces in case needed for Libya

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x530694">U.S. Readies Military Options On Libya

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4752098">David Cameron says world could supply arms to Libyan rebels. Land invasion on the table, too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x530668#530718">Catherina's latest OP is full of details about the Pentagon's preparations.

[readmoreoften]

1. Plus a million

[gateley]

2. Whoa. Hmmmm. It's tough to stand by and see Gaddafi's squad mow down

the people who are fighting for their freedom. I admit that the US and others' intervention is always a concern - gotta question the motive - but it's so hard to stand by and not HELP if we possibly can.

What do you think??

[snagglepuss]

4. I see three people on that roof. Do they speak for all Libyans?

I'd be interested to know who made that impressive banner. Interesting it appears after Hugo Chavez reiterates his support for Gadaffi and tells others to butt out of Libya.

[gateley]

5. Great point about Chavez! And that sign IS pretty damn impressive!

Just heard a reporter (I think she is in Libya) on MSNBC saying the "people" don't want foreign military troops there on the ground, but they were supportive of the no-fly-zone.

ETA - I'm always so NON suspicious of things like this, and so grateful for people like you who see beyond the "obvious" message. :headbang:

[snagglepuss]

6. Thanks for the compliment. I would credit Susan Sontag for my having developed

an eye for seeing beyond the obvious. I've always valued that ability and sought to develop in myself. I can't recommend highly enough "On Photography" -

"Photography implies that we know about the world if we accept it as the camera records it. But this is the opposite of understanding, which starts from not accepting the world as it looks. All possibility of understanding is rooted in the ability to say no. Strictly speaking, one never understands anything from a photograph."

p23 copied from a very tattered, much read copy of On Photography.

[gateley]

7. I'll definitely check it out-- thanks!! nt

[Turborama]

8. How do you know when it appeared?

Are you suggesting Chavez made the banner? :shrug:

It seems a bit patronizing to assume Libyans can't make their own "impressive" banners.



Screenshot from: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/201122753146444424.html">Libya's revolution headquarters

Edited to add this one, possibly the same roof & flag at a different angle?

[snagglepuss]

11. Everything in that post was a neutral question so please don't accuse me

of being patronizing. I have no idea what day to day life is like in Libya. That banner looked silk screened. I have no idea whether Libyans do silk screening or whether silk screeners would be open for business when the country is in open rebellion. I haven't seen similar banners denouncing Gadaffi. Do they exist? Most posters/placards I've seen are handmade which are what I'd expect to see in this situation.

You would be naive if you don't think a number of countries are making alliances with rebel groups within Libya. Chavez no doubt has people on the ground so my wondering whether banners came from Venezula isn't a stretch.


Are you aware Chavez is advocating concilliation between Gadaffi and the rebels? Are you cool with that? Do you think Libyans think concilliation is the way to go? Would that type of foreign intervention be acceptable?

[Turborama]

13. Second screenshot down in the post you are replying to.

Is a photo from Benghazi, Libya. It contains a banner which looks silk screened.

Source: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/201122753146444424.html

And your post isn't neutral at all. In fact, you are going even further and now suggesting that there's a strong likelihood that Chavez might have sent the banner from Venezuela to Libya. Which is a real stretch.

Again. Don't you think Libyans are capable of making banners like that for themselves?

Regarding your final questions.

The OP is about what Libyans want, and somehow it's being derailed into a conspiracy theory about Chavez sending banners to Libya/how Chavez is getting himself involved with 'solutions' to the Libyan revolution.

You ask me what I think? I am ambivalent about Chavez and don't have any strong feelings one way or the other. Hence, I don't give really a shit what Chavez is or isn't advocating. My main concern is what the Libyan people want.

Here's some more pictures for you. They are of Libyans training to "manage it alone".









And an article/video about it: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/20113242554921501.html">Libyan rebel army prepares for war

[snagglepuss]

17. Exaggerate much.

The operational phrase is "not inconceivable". The photo you refer to is the Libyan flag not a silk screened banner.

You are way over-reacting to a post that basically asks if more, than the 3 Libyans standing on the roof, don't want foreign intervention. It's hard to believe that Libyans would rather be bombed by the Libyan Air Force rather than have some foreign power enforce a no-fly rule.

[Turborama]

19. In. the. middle. of. the. photograph.

Looks like a silk screen banner to me...



And I laughed when I read you accusing me of "way over-reacting" whilst clearly remembering you had written this earlier:

"Chavez no doubt has people on the ground so my wondering whether banners came from Venezula isn't a stretch."

:rofl:

If you had been watching reports from Libya on BBC World or Al Jazeera English over the past week or so, you would have heard the general consensus in areas of self-liberated-Libya is that they wanted to continue liberating Libya themselves and didn't want any foreign forces intervening.

[Better Believe It]

9. No. They do not speak for Gadaffi and his supporters. Next question.

Who do you think does speak for most Libyans, BP or Chevron?

[snagglepuss]

12. Your post makes no sense. nt

[Catherina]

21. They've been loudly saying no foreign intervention from the beginning. n/t

[snagglepuss]

22. Not even for enforcing a no-fly zone? I remember a rebel in an area

bombed by the airforce saying that they had no means to protect themselves against aerial attack. How do people protect themselves from that? Wouldn't it be prudent to accept limited foreign intervention to enforce a no-fly zone?

[NBachers]

3. Quite the graphic; quite the flag-waver

[Turborama]

10. It is a good graphic, isn't it.

Not sure what you mean by "quite the flag-waver", though.

[NBachers]

14. The sight of a person standing up high with the large flag furling in the breeze is quite impressive

don't you think?

I certainly hope you weren't trying to imply some kind of offensive content in the few words I wrote. Please let me know if that's the case.

[Turborama]

15. Now you're talking about the image of the flag and the person being impressive.

The original comment was focusing on the person next to the flag with: "quite the flag-waver".

I still don't know what you meant by that.

[NBachers]

23. "The sight of a person" - read that part

Wed Mar-02-11 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. "The sight of a person standing up high with the large flag furling in the breeze is quite impressive"

Let me break it down for you:

"The sight of a person"

Person is the subject of the sentence.

A person is a human; an individual

The person is standing up high and holding a large flag. The flag is furling in the breeze. The person is standing up high on the building right on the corner; where it's possible that the large flag's weight could make the person lose their balance. The person is looking down at the photographer and displaying a peace sign. This gives the viewer the impression that the person is communicating directly with the viewer. The person's balance, strength, risk, and commitment to their cause create quite an impressive vision.

So now we see that the main subject of this sentence is the person who is waving the flag. The flag is not the subject of the sentence.

Does that clarify it for you, or should we continue?

[Turborama]

25. Thanks.

Now I know what you meant and what your intentions were, it's hard to tell sometimes.

As you can see from my discussion above, there are some around here who read something totally different into it.

[Truth2Tell]

16. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours nt

[malaise]

18. Excellent

But but but Libya has oil and they want it

[pampango]

20. Benghazi's organising committee has just formally asked UN 2 help end Ghaddafi's air strikes in East

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4753495#4753509

(Catherina posted this tweet in the Libya twitter thread. Marting Chulov is a correspondent for The Guardian.)

martinchulov Martin Chulov
Benghazi's organising committee has just formally asked UN to help end Ghaddafi's air strikes in eastern #libya
1 minute ago Favorite Retweet Reply

3/2/11 5:04am
-----------------
Who knows if the tweet is authentic, but the situation is very fluid.

[Baclava]

24. Looks like Russia, China and Turkey might veto any involvement

Military action might be too costly

While NATO appears to be a natural ally, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, its Secretary-General, has said repeatedly there will be no NATO involvement in Libya without UN Security Council approval.

Russia and China, both of whom have vetoes on the Security Council and fear spontaneous demonstrations from their own people, are not eager to endorse military intervention in the affairs of other states.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Prime Minister of Turkey, which has the second-largest standing army in NATO, is also opposed to any intervention in Libya. Mr. Erdogan told reporters at a conference in Germany Tuesday he would not "even consider such an absurdity."

"As Turkey, we're against this. This can't even be talked about, it's unthinkable," he said.

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/Military+action+might+costly/4369298/story.html