About Lybia

[nadinbrzezinski]

1.- The rebels asked for the NFZ for quite a while.

2.- The Arab League asked for it

3.- Yes it could conceivably be under the UN genocide convention.

4.- There is oil.

5.- The truth is the first casualty of war.

6.- While there are very valid reasons for this... see humanitarian law, request for intervention et al... I am a world class cynic at this point...

And yes I aprove a Just War (Kosovo) but I will hold my opinion on whether this is fully one... even if see points one, two and three. See France and her interests in this, as well as Italy...

That said if 1, 2, and 3 are the real reasons... (pass me a cynic hat) then yes I would have to support it... but number four and five give me pause.

As I said, the cynic in me... and if this stops the killing... well that will be good, since we do have honest to goodness humanitarian war violations ongoing... so do we as well in places like Bahrain but that is another post.

[tabatha]

1. Gaddafi has never restricted any oil.

Why would there be a reason to go to war for oil - there has been no problem in getting oil from Libya.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. As I said, the truth is somewhere in between as to motives

life and all that.

And if this is 100, hell even 80% humanitarian he needs to be removed and I am behind it. But... we will know in a few days what the real motives of a few countries are. Let's just say France and Italy have a history in that area of the world... as in they broke out maps from their archives and dusted them off.

[AntiFascist]

8. The rebels want more of the oil wealth to be distributed....

or, at least, for a real democracy to provide such opportunity. This does not necessarilly jibe with the interests of the oil companies, so our getting involved militarilly might not necessarilly be in their best interests if the war drags on long-term. Count me as a cynic as well.

[Distant Observer]

13. FALSE. Gaddafi has nationalized Oil and Gas and severely reduced profits to Western

firms who had major plans to develop the oil resources.

[Lucinda]

16. Pretty big item on the "motive" side of things if accurate

:hi:

[joshcryer]

20. Yeah? Every big oil state but Canada has nationalized oil.

It's a silly pretext.

[joshcryer]

19. Nationalizing oil doesn't affect its price on the global markets. This is nonsense.

Gaddafi extended leases to private companies, in fact, under the national oil company.

[Turborama]

31. Wrong! Multiple Transnational Oil Corporations Have Been In Libya Since At Least 2004

You seem to forget, or maybe didn't know, that since 2004 and up until the civil war erupted they were on 'friendly' terms with Gaddafi and numerous foreign oil corporations had already set up shop in there.

As you can see below...

Map of Libya showing oil fields under exploration by BP.
The oil giant struck a $900 million deal with Gaddafi's Libya in 2007.
Illustration/BP.

=snip=

...this article is not about the violence now sweeping the North African country, nor is it about the reign of Gaddafi, rather, it is about those who have helped sustain him. As world leaders and the international press rush to condemn Gaddafi, few mention the support his government has received from Western oil companies since 2004, http://articles.cnn.com/2004-09-17/world/us.libya_1_britain-and-libya-commercial-sanctions-trade-sanctions?_s=PM:WORLD">when the U.S. and the United Kingdom lifted commercial sanctions against Libya. One oil giant that invested heavily in Gaddafi’s Libya was BP (British Petroleum).

In May of 2007, BP signed an agreement with Libya worth $900 million. The deal was signed in Sirt, Libya, by BP’s then chief executive Tony Hayward and the chairman of the National Oil Company of Libya, Shokri Ghanem. The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom at the time, Tony Blair, attended the signing. The official BP web site published a report detailing the agreement, even publishing a special online edition with the unintended prescient title of “Libya Rising.” A jubilant Tony Haywood would utter the following at the signing, words that should haunt BP until the end of time:

“We are delighted to be working with the National Oil Company of Libya to develop their natural resources for domestic and international markets. Our agreement is the start of an enduring, long-term and mutually beneficial partnership with Libya. With its potentially large resources of gas, favourable geographic location and improving investment climate, Libya has an enormous opportunity to be a source of cleaner energy for the world. This is a welcome return to the country for BP after more than 30 years and represents a significant opportunity for both BP and Libya to deliver our long term growth aspirations. It is BP’s single biggest exploration commitment. The agreement reached today is a great success for Libya, the NOC and also for BP.”

=snip=

BP is not the only foreign oil company in Libya; U.S. corporations like http://www.upi.com/Science_News/Resource-Wars/2009/07/17/Exxon-Mobil-achieves-milestone-in-Libya/UPI-60041247858411/">Exxon Mobil, http://www.oxy.com/Our_Businesses/oil_and_gas/Pages/og_mena_libya.aspx">Occidental Petroleum, http://www.conocophillips.com/EN/about/worldwide_ops/country/africa/pages/libya.aspx">Conoco Phillips, http://www.marathon.com/Global_Operations/Exploration_and_Production/Libya/">Marathon Oil, http://www.gulfoilandgas.com/webpro1/MAIN/Mainnews.asp?id=2412">Hess Corp., and Halliburton all run profitable operations there. European nations are also well represented by Eni SpA (Italy: the largest foreign producer), Total S.A. (France: one of the six largest oil companies in the world), OMV AG (Austria), Repsol YPF SA (Spain’s largest oil company), Royal Dutch Shell (Netherlands), Statoil (Netherlands), BG Group (U.K.), Wintershall (Germany). China’s largest oil producer, CNPC, also drill for oil in Libya. Most if not all foreign companies are shutting down their Libyan operations for the moment. The chief executive for Eni said that his company will cut production “because of difficulty loading the tankers to export the oil,” inconvenient difficulties like Gaddafi’s army mowing down the Libyan people with machine gun fire.

Full article with more embedded links: http://art-for-a-change.com/blog/2011/02/libya-bp-lacma.html

[HEyHEY]

30. Because simply saying "Oil" is easier than analyzing a situation....

These last few days it has become more and more clear to me this place is no longer for me. No one thinks, just a shitload of cliche's .

[King_David]

2. I think its too late

it woulda been helpful last month

[some guy]

3. 7. i before y

[Maru Kitteh]

22. I'm holding out for a post about the conflict in Labia.

Just one little innocent vowel away. Comedy ensues.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Oh and from Reuters

BreakingNews Breaking News
U.S. national security official calls Libya air defense systems severely disabled - Reuters
1 hour ago Favorite Retweet Reply


Now that is why they want an emergency meeting I am sure

[tabatha]

7. Was a French jet shot down?

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. according to libya no confirmation

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Confirmatiin of the Libyan jet shot down over

benghazi though

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-202_162-10007117.html?tag=page

[cleanhippie]

6. Break is over?

that WAS fast.

[Ghost in the Machine]

29. If you have something intelligent, or relevant, to say about the content of the OP

..by all means, spit it out. If not, move along, and familiarize yourself with the rules of this board that prohibit you from stalking someone from thread to thread trying to keep a disagreement going from a previous locked thread.

You do have something intelligent and relevant to add, don't you? :shrug:

[joe_sixpack]

10. The Arab league supported it?

Isn't Saudi Arabia in the Arab league, and Bahrain and Yemen? Wow, the irony that those countries support the Libyan people overthrowing their government.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. They requested it, but Qadaffi has been

the kid in the short bus for a long time.

[Distant Observer]

14. Not all. Gaddafi in notorious for call for overthow of Arab monarchs

Before the 2 "Iraq Wars" there would have been a major opposition block led by Syria and Iraq to this sort of action.
Now the Arab League is basically a puppet of the Sheikdoms and Western interest, much like the "Security Council" does whatever the West wants and can get Russia and China not to veto.

[Catherina]

23. Not just overthrow but in Saudi Arabia's case, allegedly plotting to assassine King Abdullah

...

"You are always lying and you're facing the grave and you were made by Britain and protected by the United States," Gaddafi told King Abdullah in front of 15 other leaders attending the annual gathering.

Tensions have run high between the two countries since articles in U.S. and Saudi newspapers in June 2004 accused Gaddafi of allegedly plotting to assassinate King Abdullah, then crown prince.

...

"You are a product of Great Britain and protected by the United States," Gaddafi said, again quoting from King Abdullah's 2003 attack on him at the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh.

...

http://en.news.maktoob.com/20090000000276/Libya_s_Gaddafi_hurls_insults_at_Saudi_king/Article.htm

[Arctic Dave]

15. Is humanitarian law a valid reason when the rebels used

military force. This sounds more like civil war and we just jumped in it.

I asked this on another post. Are you ok with Libya sinking a US warship?

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. That is a risk of a war

that they may be able to get close to any of our assets and sink it.

As to humanitarian law. study up on the Genocide Convention.

It does apply here.

That said, I am far more of a cynic to say that it is ONLY because of this... or shall we say nuanced.

Nor will I say it is exclusively about oil.

Shall we say I can look at black and white and mix them into multiple shades of gray.

[fittosurvive]

18. Shouldn't the question of whether the US instigates a state of war

against another sovereign state be debated and decided by our elected representatives? (And it is war, because war is defined as behavior pattern of organized violent conflict)

I believe the power to declare war was vested in the Congress to ensure a rational contemplation of the grievances, as well as the projected cost of lives and resources of the People.

Regrettably, the legitimate process of declaring war has been disregarded and as a result, we have engaged in a number of wars against nations that did not attack us. In each of these conflicts, the ensuing sequence of events were not anticipated and resulted in our troops being stuck in no-win situations. The rational for these wars was not deliberated and they caused great deal of harm to our nation.

Before we go to war with Libya, the People's representatives should specifically define what it is that we are supporting and the potential consequences of our engagement. If this war cannot be justified, the lives and resources of Americans should not be put at risk.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. That is sadly a valid issue

The last war was WW II. I suspect that is the nature of modern life and of course so many precedents that de-facto it is no longer decided by the congress. it should, I just don't expect it any longer.

Sadly I have become way too cynical and expect to be proven that genocide convention was the excuse, and while more valid than WMD, when all said and done far less of the justification for it. Oh and we are indeed to the point that when troops end on the ground, see cynic in me, well draft will come. Not precisely the kind a certain congressman wants either, and the Congress will happily go along. We entered an empire in 1945 officially, and behave accordingly. Yes, we crossed the rubicon a while ago.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Common Sense Party]

24. About Labia...

We shouldn't go in.



:hide:

[petronius]

25. Not right away, anyway. Gotta start slow, work up to it...

[Common Sense Party]

26. But only if we are ASKED to enter. n/t

[Quantess]

27. Probably shave off the troublesome, annoying hairs (I meant dictators)

[Obamanaut]

32. "About Lybia" Proofreading can be your friend. nt

[Quantess]

33. However, she is a 2nd english capacity, we can understand.

[Obamanaut]

34. The 'check spelling' button works for anyone/everyone, and it's really

close to the 'post message' button.

It would almost seem like someone who delights in talking down to people, berating people, lecturing people, 'explains' things to people, would want his/her posts to be correct.

Don't you think?

Just imagine how it must look to a reader to see a post from someone claiming to be a historian, with a reference to Richard V at Agincourt.

I pressed the 'check spelling' button, and it magically caught one. It was that easy.