Are Right-Wing Libertarian Internet Trolls Getting Paid to Dumb Down Online Conversations?

[kristopher]

Are Right-Wing Libertarian Internet Trolls Getting Paid to Dumb Down Online Conversations?
There are daily attempts to control and influence content in the interests of the state and corporations: attempts in which money talks.
December 15, 2010 |

... I’m not talking here about threats to net neutrality and the danger of a two-tier internet developing, though these are real. I’m talking about the daily attempts to control and influence content in the interests of the state and corporations: attempts in which money talks.

The weapon used by both state and corporate players is a technique known as astroturfing. An astroturf campaign is one that mimics spontaneous grassroots mobilizations, but which has in reality been organized. Anyone writing a comment piece in Mandarin critical of the Chinese government, for example, is likely to be bombarded with abuse by people purporting to be ordinary citizens, upset by the slurs against their country.

I first came across online astroturfing in 2002, when the investigators Andy Rowell and Jonathan Matthews looked into a series of comments made by two people calling themselves Mary Murphy and Andura Smetacek. They had launched ferocious attacks, across several internet forums, against a scientist whose research suggested that Mexican corn had been widely contaminated by GM pollen.

Rowell and Matthews found that one of the messages Mary Murphy had sent came from a domain owned by the Bivings Group, a PR company specializing in internet lobbying. An article on the Bivings website explained that “there are some campaigns where it would be undesirable or even disastrous to let the audience know that your organization is directly involved … Message boards, chat rooms, and listservs are a great way to anonymously monitor what is being said. Once you are plugged into this world, it is possible to make postings to these outlets that present your position as an uninvolved third party."

The Bivings site also quoted a...

http://www.alternet.org/media/149197/are_right-wing_libertarian_internet_trolls_getting_paid_to_dumb_down_online_conversations/?page=entire


This is the blog of Andy Rowell mentioned in the article:
http://www.spinwatch.org/blogs-mainmenu-29/andy-rowell-mainmenu-30?start=10

[Lyric]

1. Do they actually need to get paid to do that?

Why on earth would anyone pay them for what they're perfectly willing and capable of doing for free?

:evilgrin:

[northoftheborder]

How would you know if someone was doing it for free, or not?

[McCamy Taylor]

135. Some of them are definitely paid. Those are the ones whose fund of knowledge

does not match their internet persona. My favorite example was a poster who claimed to a a housewife who knew way more than she should have known about health insurance profit margins.

I think that under Karl Rove, the RNC has probably hired people to act like idiot lefties----that's straight from Pat Buchanan's Watergate playbook. But the idiologues are way outnumbered by the corporate shills. There is more money at stake for corporations.

[JDPriestly]

147. There is a DUer who always come forth with a very slick

defense of Obama no matter the question. No one is that supportive of any politician. No way. Even those who basically like Obama and agree with most of what he does have a couple of reservations.

And this person is very aggressive in his defense of Obama. His posts are quite professional. Face it. Most of us make occasional mistakes, typos, grammatical errors when we write, even those of us who have mostly done writing for a living. But the DUer I am thinking of posts these perfect items, polished, edited and neatly presented every time. Makes me wonder.

[Shandris]

2. Maybe. Hell, probably. Given the number of people in the world, its virtually a...

...certainty.

The best way to beat a troll imo is to make sure you're in the right whenever possible. All a troll can do then is make one member mad at another, and while that works to some degree, ~most~ communities are (or should be) better than that.

What I won't do is worry about whether every, any, or any portion in between of the posts I read or respond to are 'trolls'. The whole concept of it, as applied today, has become a way of limiting conversation. To hell with that.

[tavalon]

22. I'd like to say that we quickly dispatch trolls here, but

actually most of us, myself included, tend to play with our food before dispatching it. They're just so silly and we enjoy (too much, I fear) batting them about and then we only alert on them when they begin to bore us (fairly soon - they aren't that much fun).

[Shandris]

48. Just what I needed.

A mental image of a lolcat batting around a brown paper sack but quickly becoming bored.

"I CAN HAZ MODZ NAO?" :)

[tavalon]

102. That's pretty much the way it works

Sometimes we get them and they can spell. They don't understand debate, but we keep them a little longer because it's so novel to see them spell, even big words. But in the end, they can't argue worth a damn, even with those fancy words, so, as you said ................

[Zorra]

127. LOL! We are bad kitties, aren't we?

:hi:

[Curmudgeoness]

3. Trolls are too stupid to think it would be of value. nt

[Autumn]

4. I'm sure they are. That's how they get out their

talking points.

[ixion]

5. there are all sorts of folks from all political parties doing that

not just libertarians. That's the way political parties work, and why no one party should be trusted any more than any other. They are inherently corrupt by design.

[kristopher]

16. It isn't political, it is in support of business interests.

Do you think HFCS really has a strong grassroots constituency?

Can you think of any other *industries* that have public relations problems that they need to address by undermining their detractors in the only venue where those detractors actually have an active voice?

[AikidoSoul]

70. The Chemical / Pharmaceutical companies have paid flaks who do this

all the time. They have invaded chemical injury discussions on several list serves, including DU. What is aggravating here is that the tactic is allowed for them to become so ugly in their attacks that the thread is shut down. This should not be allowed, but it continues.

I hardly every post anything to DU anymore about chemical injury issues. It's a waste of time. Going to all the trouble to do a good job of documenting the facts and then some flak craps all over it with flagrantly hostile and stupid remarks. Why should they be allowed to shut down a thread?

I don't get it.



On edit change "that" to "who"

[defendandprotect]

90. Think it's an issue for Skinner to consider -- ?

[crazyjoe]

98. Do you honestly believe big pharma pays people join DU and discredit chemical injury discussions?

[FiveGoodMen]

141. Why not?

[JDPriestly]

148. We also have a couple of outspoken nuclear energy advocates.

Doesn't mean they are trolls, but I always wonder.

[madrchsod]

6. yes they are

[Scuba]

7. They're certainly here on DU, keeping expectations low at every turn. n/t

[freshwest]

12. Yup, but what to do? Put them on Ignore or kill 'em with facts? They derail a lot of threads.

[tavalon]

23. See that button on the left lower part of any message?

Alert. The mods will assess whether it's a pattern and if it is, pizza is delivered. The other day, I'd had it with a posters "nuclear fuel is safe and good for you!" along with "no one has died from radiation", I alerted multiple times, then put him on ignore. I was able to delete that one by the next day for he had been tombstoned.

[Nye Bevan]

14. YES. Anyone who disagrees with me is *obviously* a paid disruptor.

Because I am so brilliant.

[Scuba]

15. LOL

[DeadEyeDyck]

82. I have to respectfully remain neutral

[fascisthunter]

83. embarrassing

[SOS]

138. Disagreement v. Propaganda

A heated disagreement on a subject like the Obama policy in Libya is one thing.
Someone vociferously defending Wall Street banks is quite another.

There was one poster who claimed that banks could not decline debit cards at point of sale because it would cost "billions"
to upgrade the technology. That wasn't a disagreement, it was a falsehood being disseminated by some dork working for a bank.

[SDuderstadt]

142. Or, it could be someone who was...

merely mistaken.

It's not like that doesn't happen here daily.

[JDPriestly]

149. I have sometimes really believed something that was false.

When someone posted a link that proved I was wrong, I was quite grateful. One of the reasons that I come to DU is to learn new things.

So if someone resists learning from evidence, I question what their motivation for posting is.

[KittyWampus]

38. I think the ratfuckers attacking from the Left are way more prevalent. History would indicate that.

[CrossChris]

58. Isn't there a LOT more money coming from the right? The attacks on liberals from the "center" here

are the ones that seem like the trolls.

I've never seen anyone in my brief time here make an attack from "the Left" that was not in line with the basic Democratic platform for the last 50 years.

It's the posts trying to stick up for this Blue Dog policy, or that Reaganomic ideal that come of as trollish to me. And our history of the last several decades of right wing and libertarian think tanks supported by corporate money support that.

Tell me more about the history of troll-attacks from the left that I might be missing.

[bluestate10]

115. The Left could not win a circus doll without help from the center.

Your post is a disservice to anyone that is working to turn back rightwing attacks. Centrists are carrying water in the battle against the right, yet you chose to hit those centrists in the back. How wise or logical is that behavior? Know what battles to fight.

[CrossChris]

145. When I use quotes, I'm talking about the right posing as the center.

I still believe that it's bizarre for the center, by any definition, to come onto a Democratic website and bash the Democratic platform.

Yes, the center deserves respect and it's practical to court them for elections. That does not entitle them to come into our forums and attack our long-held ideals.

[liberation]

155. "Centrists are carrying water in the battle against the right, "

against?

LOL

[liberation]

62. " I think the ratfuckers attacking from the Left..."

Yeah that vast leftwing conspiracy swimming in money with the only objective of hurting your conservative sensitivities...

[KittyWampus]

77. LOL! You need to look up the word ratfucker.

[liberation]

156. Indeed I did.

Mea culpa...

[JDPriestly]

150. Nobody pays anyone to attack from the left. The left just

doesn't have the money. People who are on the left are few and far between, and, in general, they have only turned left after a painful inner struggle.

I'm left on some issues and right on others. Of course, I am not always right, but I don't express opinions I have not thought through and sincerely believe.

If you are annoyed by posts from the left, then you need to strengthen your own arguments until you either change to become more left or can effectively support your point of view.

If you really work on the process of developing an opinion, you will be less annoyed by people who disagree with you.

[petronius]

113. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

I suspect you're seeing this pattern of keeping expectations low because your expectations are too high - don't overestimate the intelligence or reasoning abilities of people in general (even at a smart well-informed place like DU...)

[EstimatedProphet]

8. Yes.

Next question.

[Mnemosyne]

9. You need to ask?

:hi:

[devils chaplain]

10. I can see it now...

Signs stuck in the ground on medians or stapled to telephone poles:

"Make $70k+ a year to surf the internet! No skills required! Go to www.trickledowntrolls.com for more!"

[L. Coyote]

35. Sorry, we can't find "www.trickledowntrolls.com". We suggest that you check the spelling of the web

I need a high paying job :rofl:

Actually, these jobs are likely to be off-shore and pay $3 a day!

[freshwest]

11. First clue it's a paid troll is their drooling over high-tech military hardware.

This is standard, from my experience online elsewhere. Sometimes I think it's happening here and I'm not the only one suspects it.

I saw a I read a simlilar Guardian story on this entitled, 'Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media.'

Which explained the loving details on all kinds of military hardware, alright.

And while not all military think that way at all, there must be a crtain amount who'll post their total hatred for all things liberal, muslim, progressive, Democratic or anti-war, anti-nuke, anti-GMO, you name it, whatever the MIC and the big corps want them to say.

They gotta pay the bills, I guess.

The worst thing about this is that politicians gauge the public mind via postings online and vote accordingly. That's dangerous for all of us here and around the world.

The best thing is that they have to pay these trolls, because there are not enough people who hold their views.

The rest of us here are really speaking our own truths without that. Because we believe what we say versus them trying to sell something. Pathetic.

[FreakinDJ]

13. Why Troll - Why not spread Dis-Information

Discrediting your detractors would be some much more effective

[defendandprotect]

92. Good point -- think there is a difference between "trolls" and "disinformation" posters ...

[musette_sf]

17. YES eom

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sheepshank]

18. I almost hope they're getting paid

acting like assholes and idiotic, uninformed, bigoted, jerk off, republican assholes, at that, for free would make them even more stupid than they already appear. I'm convinced there are few here.

[howaboutme]

19. It is not just RW or Parties, there are countries too

Israel is a known operator of paid shills on forums.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-recruits-army-of-bloggers-to-combat-anti-zionist-web-sites-1.268393

[hifiguy]

140. I think I have seen a few of their shills

on several left websites. They are prolific, persistent and exceedingly trollish.

[MedleyMisty]

20. The Libya intervention certainly brought them out here

They repeat rightwing talking points, and people who I know are real and who are usually intelligent and reasonable eat it right up.

Some of the stories that slander the Libyans that are posted here - when I search for them I find them also posted on sites like redstate.com. Just saying.

[guruoo]

29. And playing both sides, e.g.:

'Save the Libyans' one week, 'It's unconstitutional', yadda yadda the next.

[sabrina 1]

84. Paul Wolfowitz and Elliot Abrams want to 'save the Libyans'

too. The same way they 'saved the Iraqis'. Anyone who wishes a U.S. Iraq-style intervention, complete with Mercenaries and the CIA on the Libyan people, is not supporting the Libyan people. Makes me wonder who are they supporting?

[defendandprotect]

95. +1000% ---

:hi:

[Hannah Bell]

34. rightwing talking points? mccain, lieberman & the old pnac crowd were among

the earliest supporters of intevention.

half the right wing is saying obama didn't go in early enough.

[defendandprotect]

97. No, the Libyans were the first supporters of NFZ -- but "no boots on ground" --

As long as this works for the Libyan protesters, then we'll have to accept

that the right wing are along for the ride for different reasons.

[Dokkie]

44. so true

because anyone coming out against the Libyan intervention is a libertarian troll

[FiveGoodMen]

54. "when I search for them I find them also posted on sites like redstate.com"

Someone needs to write an app that would tabulate articles posted at multiple sites.

Might be an eye-opener.

[defendandprotect]

93. Oh, thank you for those comments -- right on !! RW propaganda still succeeds ... !!!

It's the poison apple rolled in quietly --

Thank you!

[Historic NY]

24. found one.............

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/troglodyte.htm

[ConservativeDemocrat]

47. They're definately unwelcome on this site filled with these...

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/pinko.htm

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Historic NY]

131. ah but then there are...

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/duelists.htm

[TygrBright]

25. Another one from the overflowing "Duh" file... n/t

[shanti]

26. absolutely believe this

just check out the comment section to top stories on sacbee.com. hateful teabagger comments that get tons of "likes" when there's no way they could have so many in the time the story had been up. it gotten way out of control in the last two weeks or so, so it's obvious something's up.

[TomCADem]

27. Of course. There are entire PR firms that specialize in social media marketing...

...that is disguised as grass roots buzz. Heck, social media marketing is the new buzz word, which is designed to disguise a sophisticated marketing campaign as an organic ground swell of support.

[defendandprotect]

100. What we haven't thought about is training in resisting rw propaganda -- !!!

That's something we need to get underway --

Otherwise rw propaganda is intended to short-circuit thinking -- and

hit emotional buttons!!

[underseasurveyor]

28. Certainly there seems to be enough of em here.

I've seen too many good long time DUers that have been worn down and run off.

These insidious posers do exist. Of this I have no doubt.

[999998th word]

30. Than theres the Koch Bros funded group that routinely 'scrubs' wiki.

They also rewrite the......yeah I know.:evilgrin: :dunce:

[freshwest]

31. Check what they did to Classical LIberalism on Wiki.

Last time I looked, it said those with that poltical bent despised people and thought they needed to be controlled. Typical RW BS straight from the psychological transferance method.

Liberals think people will do the right thing. Why else support democracy if it's that hopeless?

[upi402]

32. psychological transference method, or projection maybe

I tend to see them as accusing our side of exactly what they're up to. Some are projecting it seems, but there seems to also be pragmatic actors that use this as a method of propaganda.

[AikidoSoul]

136. ".....or projection maybe"

That is really hitting the nail on the head. They accuse others of exactly what they themselves are doing. These people seem to either have a blind side and are really ignorant of their own failings, or they simply turn the guns outward to distract attention from their own behavior.

[Avant Guardian]

45. Same with fascism

Attempting to claim it is left wing

[defendandprotect]

104. Just found out Koch Bros. Funded the DLC -- but ...

didn't know that they scrub Wiki!!



Rightwing Koch Bros. Funded the DLC --

http://www.democrats.com/node/7789

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

[LAGC]

33. I kind of like Libertarians.

I consider myself a left-libertarian, so I agree with many of their ideas, at least on the social side of things.

I think we'd have a much better public discourse if the authoritarian Republican Party dissolved and Libertarians took their place. We wouldn't have to keep fighting over things like gay rights, abortion, corporate welfare, and bloated military spending.

They definitely liven the message boards up -- some of the best "legacy" threads on this site are from right-wing Libertarian trolls who started thread titles like: "Do you believe coercion (force) should ever be initiated by the government?"

Makes for lots of :popcorn: and :crazy:. I really wish mods wouldn't be so quick to ban them, as members do a pretty good job of putting them in their place and making them look like tools and fools. The entertainment value alone is priceless.

[defendandprotect]

107. Left Libertarians are entirely different from the rw -- ugh!!

[L. Coyote]

36. Can we start a troll union, demand medical insurance, retirement under a nice bridge

you know the works, full bennies :rofl:

[Hugabear]

37. If someone offered you money to do this, would you?

It's an interesting dilemma, especially given how many of us are unemployed. If some right-wing organization offered you money to troll various sites and spew Tea Party memes, would you?

[avaistheone1]

39. No way.

Even if I were penniless, I would not work for some right-wing organization that is invested in keeping me that way

[barbtries]

43. no

[davidthegnome]

46. An odd question

You have to know that even people who probably would probably wouldn't admit it.

To answer, no, I wouldn't, but you shouldn't take my word for it. I'm an anonymous person on an internet forum as far as you know.

I don't blame those that do or would though. Regardless of their real political leaning, if someone is offering them a way of survival for them and their families... in this economy?

In answer to the OP - absolutely. I don't think they'd be desperate enough to do so though, if our economy wasn't in such a shambles.

[Pacifist Patriot]

57. Not a chance

[CrossChris]

60. That's why it seems 1000x more likely coming from the right, & Blue Dogs than from the left.

It's almost completely incompatible with the belief system.

Blue Dogs exist solely to represent the "pragmatic" crowd that would do anything for money.

...And Repubs are proud of this characteristic.

[fascisthunter]

85. I wouldn't

then again, I have principles

[rucky]

86. I would.

and I'd be so absurdly awful at it that nobody could help but hate me.

[sabrina 1]

94. No, I wouldn't even take money to say what I believe in.

That was the best thing about the internet when it started. That the people had a place to say what they thought and be in touch with people across the country, or the world, discussing issues with them, agreeing, disagreeing whatever.

This kind of deception destroys honest discussion. But I know it's been around for a long time. Sad to say on many progressive boards, where the 'trolls' were mostly trashing anything that was perceived to be the slightest bit left-leaning.

Most of them have talking points and words they use repeatedly which usually made them easy to spot. People who speak from their hearts don't need talking points or words handed to them by others.

However, I think it's best to use them. Since they're there, it presents an opportunity provide facts. Which is exactly what they are trying to prevent.

[grahamhgreen]

103. No.

[bluestate10]

117. No. nt

[Zorra]

129. Not even for a trillion dollars. nt

[fascisthunter]

40. I'm Sure a Troll Here will Claim it's the Left Wing behind it All

[liberation]

64. You're late by at least half an hour

;-)

[fascisthunter]

65. oh I saw that one...

good way of outing itself

[liberation]

68. It is also a testament to how big the "big tent" has gotten...

... when you have die hard conservatives assuming the own the Dem platform to the point they feel comfortable shitting on the left openly.


Can you imagine people on any republican message board blaming right wingers?

[Mimosa]

72. Republicans don't even use the term right wing because they've gone so far right

They've become a circle.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

41. there are a few right here on DU earning their salaries

[emilyg]

52. Agree. Both sides do it.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

53. so far, they are avoiding chiming in on this thread...... I keep checking

:shrug:

[liberation]

66. Both sides?

Let's see one side, the right, is flushed with corporate cash and has a fine tradition of controlling the message. The other, the left, is almost hunted down to extinction and can barely afford to have the slightest mention of their message heard.

I don't know if I'd equate both sides on this issue.

[Mimosa]

73. That's the truth.

It's impossible not to notice their formulaic daily multiple forums topic postings of talking points.

[Bobbie Jo]

144. I Believe It. nt

[Myrina]

42. No, I think Americans by and large are just really that stupid ....

... tech-inclined people tend to place waaaayyy too much importance on 'message boards' and such when the average moron probably gets more of their news from the checkout line, church and at the tavern than they do from the intertubes.

[LanternWaste]

61. Recent Want ads for trolls...

Want ads for trolls...

[defendandprotect]

108. Imagine a lot of desperate people these days may go for it?

Difficult to lie, though so maybe not!?

[bongbong]

49. I've seen it everywhere

The paid posters are clogging up the Internet. And they're on more than poltical blogs. On gizmodo, the first comment under a post about the Japanese meltdown was saying (basically) "they all deserved to die". Thus all the subsequent comments became denouncements of the first one, instead of discussions and/or denouncements of nuclear power.

The corporations are trying to control the Internet like they control the entire MSM including most of NPR.

[999998th word]

51. After they finish gutting the 2 party system they will eliminate freedom of speech

on the internet.
Computer savvy people do give me hope,they are a creative bunch+will find a
workaround somehow.I came too late to that party+probably wont understand
much of it.I'm roadkill on the information superhighway,should just stick to an
etch-a-sketch.
:argh:

[slay]

50. Yes. Yes they are.

it's fucked up. We try to use the internet and message boards to seriously discuss topics involving Dems and the prez while these troll monsters - who post a freaking lot - are immune to any discussion - reply using mockery and ridicule, and generally do their best to derail any thoughtful threads. i see it many places i post.

[certainot]

55. IMO a very significant % of RW radio callers are paid

that it happens is not in dispute but the ability to do what are basically paid ads for the GOP US chamber of commerce and their politicians (selling their distortions and attacking their opponents) from think tanks basically supplying scripts needs investigation.

on the internet the trolls can be detected and confronted- on radio the call screeners protect the talkers and their propaganda so there is no real time challenge except a few liberal callers that can sometimes get through on local shows.

the software used by radio stations to screen calls makes it very easy to give priority to the trolls and move them past people who have been waiting for hours.

the left needs a serious effort by major orgs to challenge the radio monopoly. rewards for whistleblowers- paid callers and call screeners. exposing the scam.

until they take on the radio they cannot claim to be getting their reps backs.

[Pacifist Patriot]

56. What do you think those "get paid to work from home" jobs are?

}(

[mod mom]

59. I love reading the comments @ TPM. They hammer away at the trolls who are no match for their wit.

[SDuderstadt]

78. I would say any RW troll here...

gets similarly hammered and probably doesn't last very long anyhow.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wait Wut]

153. I miss TPM.

Haven't been able to post their since the upgrades. Agree with you about the trolls there. But, there was also an odd respect for the long time trolls.

[rhett o rick]

63. They are easy to spot. They are usually the first resonder to a post. They drop a turd and then

never respond to replies. Some will insinuate via questions like Fok News. "Would you like it if Obama let people of Libya be killed?" They rarely express their opinions.

[Jester Messiah]

67. Of course they are.

Hell, I heard there was sock-puppet-management software out there now to allow for easy alt-switching. It's disgusting.

[sabrina 1]

110. Wasn't HBGary working on that? How to manage mulitiple

online personas who would be given whole internet backgrounds to avoid dectection as trolls? They are getin more sophisticated at it.

Still, I don't see how they expect to succeed in changing people's minds. Unlike radio or tv eg, they can be challenged online and people have easy access to info to debunk their arguments with facts.

The whole thing could backfire on them as their 'points' can spark real discussion that can educate people away from their pov. I like arguing with trolls, always have. They often get annoyed too if you continue a conversation they would like to end. Which they often do by claiming there is 'no point in continuing talking to someone who is not 'part of the reality based community'. When that happens, you know the conversation has gone past their pay grade. :rofl: AND all they've done is give you an opportunity to post links and backup for others who may just be lurking.

I think we should use them as props and as teaching material. Never waste rightwing money if you can use it for your own advantage.

[trud]

69. this makes me wonder

if the totally uninformed panic posts about nuclear power in DU are from friends of BP. I was surprised that Democrats were as uncritical and accepting of any wild tumor that passed by their noses, but if someone has a pro-oil agenda, that would explain it.

[bongbong]

123. Nukes?

Nukes? They don't work and they're ULTRA dangerous. Any other questions?

I have one question for you - who paid you to post here? :rofl:

[Vogon_Glory]

71. There Certainly Are

There certainly are right-wing trolls being paid to dumb down conversations. That's hardly a secret.

The News & Opinion board over at McClatchey's Miami herald is infested by one particularly obnoxious troll. He posts under multiple screen names, regularly flames other posters with homophobic and gynophobic accusations and has turned that discussion board into an open sewer. While many right-wingers cn be that vicious, there is strong evidence that he's either paid or enabled.

The evidence is circumstantial but strong. He posts frequently, he posts at all hours, and he posts day in, day out. I can't bring myself to believe that he'd be able to produce that much output if he was a student, a care-taker, or holding down another full-time job. I doubt anyone could post that much daily and hold down either a full-time job or being even a part-time student without letting the rest of your life fall apart.


Aside from running off progressive posters and dumbing down conversation to the point where even sixth-graders would be disgusted by the low intellectual content, the troll's efforts have had one interesting side-effect: he ran off a LOT of hard-core right-wing Cuban emigres with his xenophobic flaming.

The best cure for such trolls is cyber-fumigation. That's what I like about DU; such stuff and such posters doesn't last long.

[Snoutport]

74. i MIGHT occasionally dumb things down but I'm NOT a troll. just dumb sometimes.

[SDuderstadt]

75. DU definition

RW troll = anyone who disagrees with the poster

[Snoutport]

76. oh, i know... i was just joshing i was really just K&Ring it :0)

[SDuderstadt]

79. Understood, but...

it gets pretty frustrating to see those seeking to disagree with an argument on a factual basis get summarily dismissed as a RW troll. It's actually a tactic to avoid factual debate far too often.

[sabrina 1]

114. Really? I haven't noticed that to be the case at all.

Except from trolls who generally attack people who disagree with them by resorting to name-calling etc. Most times when someone is identified as a possible infiltrator it is because they are spewing rightwing talking points.

[SDuderstadt]

116. Care to point to some of this...

"name-calling" and "RW talking points"?

[sabrina 1]

120. That would be against DU rules ~

But a generic example would be those who attempt to twist people's position, such as if you do not support a U.S. invasion of Libya, 'So now you're a Qaddafi supporter' or 'you're slandering the Libyan people' :rofl:

They're always so childish, their talking points. 'So, you're a Saddam Hussein fan'. It's three-year-old level. But that's the intention I read, make it so stupid that it's hard for an intelligent person to even want to deal with. Otoh, I'm not sure what they think they are accomplishing. I've never seen them change a single mind, nor stop a discussion. I wouldn't pay any money for that kind of 'work'. Mostly they alienate people from their pov.

[SDuderstadt]

121. That's actually a...

strawman argument and there are plenty of examples of it from our fellow progressives who attempt to tar Obama supporters as supporting "war crimes" or a "war criminal".

I also do not see a single example of name-calling in the response.

[Zorra]

146. Yeh. Like deliberate, obtuse contradictions without posting supporting links/sources.

They post few or no facts/sources, (maybe an unlinked blurb taken out of context), and if you post facts/sources, they ignore them and continue on with their deliberately obtuse, generalized contradictions.

Kind of like this:
;-)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn't.
(more)
http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm

[Generic Other]

80. I may dumb down any internet conversation I am involved in

but I have always had the courage of my convictions.

I try to imagine making a few bucks pretending to be some rightwing person on FR. I mean really, they could not pay me enough to put up with their crap thinking skills. A troll who posts there would be earning their money the hard way!

I'd sooner sweep the parking lot at Walmart.

[Kip Humphrey]

81. Way to flush out Right-Wing Libertarian Internet Trolls on DU:

Turn off spell check.

[SDuderstadt]

88. Sorry...

I don't think gently reminding a fellow liberal that "prejudice" is not spelled "pregidous" is remotely trollish.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Puzzler]

87. This is especially obvious at the Guadian website...

... I'm always amazed at the number of tea-bag types that seem so be avid "readers".

[defendandprotect]

89. Sadly it seems to be working -- more enlightened comments aren't being made ....

because of trolls -- those who could uplift our thoughts may be less likely

to post their comments because of trolls?

Actually, I received a PM today with some terrific comments on a thread and

the author said that they wouldn't be posted because of trolls following the thread --

it was an OP on the subject of rape, as I recall.

RW propaganda does work -- and very often it comes as a poison apple rolled in.

[bluestate10]

122. A person that really believe in what they post don't give a shit about

who does not like their views or who attack those views. I am a moderate on DU. To some, my political position makes me a troll. Yet if matched action to action, this month alone I have done more for causes that are deemed progressive than some of the most rabid progressive posters. As a moderate, I lean toward concrete actions. I do not post that I am "afraid" when I know that individual determination gives me no reason to be fearful. As a moderate democrat I want to see progressives coming to the table with concrete actions and more determination. I don't argue with the ultimate goals of progressives, as I have posted before, most are right and even noble. What I do argue with are ideas that are thrown out with no means of making those ideas reality. So those that will, call me a troll, I will focus on actions that will defeat republicans.

[sabrina 1]

126. The means to make ideas become reality is the ballot box.

When a politician lays out his or her plans to put ideas into action and gets elected based on those plans, then changes their mind on such issues as eg, the ban on offshore drilling, progressives who voted for that candidate have every right to question that politician. Blaming the voter is an old trick to defend politicians who either lied during their campaigns, or do not have what it takes to make their ideas become reality.

Also not everyone is like you. I eg, don't care much either what others think of what I say, but I do recognize the fact that there are people who are more timid and need a bit more understanding and encouragement to participate in discussions. Slapping them down because they are not like me, is not very progressive.

[bucolic_frolic]

96. This is news?

This has been going on since the Election 2000. We routinely had obsessed people posting on groups and clubs. Some threatened violence. Many spoke with the same buzzwords. Liberals were not organized at that time.

So I'm yawning that someone is surprised that this is going on today.

[MaeScott]

99. They are great at hijacking a thread. nt

[grahamhgreen]

106. They wait like ticks, hoping to be the first to jump on a thread with a wackadoodle statement.

[defendandprotect]

109. One in 9/11 forum ....

admitted to having someone here watch the threads for him and alert him

so he could be first to post -- something negative, of course!

9/11 forums are quite important to them --

they need to be sure that if there is ever a breakthru of the left into power

that they have ridiculed these "conspiracies" as much as possible!!

Wouldn't want to have the left actually investigating any of them!!


:evilgrin:

[SDuderstadt]

111. I highly, highly doubt that happened n/t

[davidthegnome]

132. Why do you doubt it?

Are you questioning the poster's credibility or do you think a right wing troll wouldn't do that? Or maybe that there aren't any trolls here? I'm confused.

[SDuderstadt]

133. Let the poster prove it...

she has the burden of proof.

In the 9/11 forum, a number of posters paint anyone who doesn't believe "9/11 was an inside job" as a default RWer. It gets pretty old.

[davidthegnome]

134. Understood

thanks for clarifying that.

[grahamhgreen]

105. They also try to anger people, and frequently make personal attacks.

[cherokeeprogressive]

112. If they are, I hope Left Wing Trolls are getting paid just as much.

I wonder if there is an International Brotherhood of Trolls who negotiates wages?

I'd hope so.

[petronius]

118. Probably yes, but I bet it's at a rate < 1/1000 of what people around here think (nt)

[ThoughtCriminal]

119. When they get online

it's hard to imagine any other outcome other than "dumb down" - paid or not.

[Kablooie]

124. Duh...Nope. Nope. Nope. Uh.... an I'hm makin' a DOLLA A MINUTE!

[Jakes Progress]

125. Paid or simply perverse ---- they're hheeeeerrrreeee.

I feel that DU is infected, but it's better than most other sites. Probably because there are smarter people here to combat their inane gibbering.

[Zorra]

128. I've actually grown kind of fond of some of the few long term pet trolls here.

They're the DLC corporate trolls, and they are actually really very good at what they do. They'll be here forever. They're funny.

But almost every troll has a "tell", just like many poker players do.

The RW trolls are dumber than domestic turkeys and are easy prey.

Best to roast them before eating.

[SDuderstadt]

130. Gee...

please describe these "tells".

Also, still waiting to hear how the President can amend the United States Code through an Executive Order.

[Gravel Democrat]

137. 130 posts and no one has brought up the paper by Obamas Office of Info Cheif

Obama confidant's spine-chilling proposal

Cass Sunstein has long been one of Barack Obama's closest confidants. Often mentioned as a likely Obama nominee to the Supreme Court, Sunstein is currently Obama's head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs where, among other things, he is responsible for "overseeing policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs." In 2008, while at Harvard Law School, Sunstein co-wrote a truly pernicious paper proposing that the U.S. Government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-"independent" advocates to "cognitively infiltrate" online groups and websites -- as well as other activist groups -- which advocate views that Sunstein deems "false conspiracy theories" about the Government. This would be designed to increase citizens' faith in government officials and undermine the credibility of conspiracists. The paper's abstract can be read, and the full paper downloaded, here. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1084585



Sunstein advocates that the Government's stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into "chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups." He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called "independent" credible voices to bolster the Government's messaging (on the ground that those who don't believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government). This program would target those advocating false "conspiracy theories," which they define to mean: "an attempt to explain an event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role." Sunstein's 2008 paper was flagged by this blogger, and then amplified in an excellent report by Raw Story's Daniel Tencer.

while secretly coordinating their talking points and messaging about wars and detention policies with the Pentagon. Bush officials secretly paid supposedly "independent" voices, such as Armstrong Williams and Maggie Gallagher, to advocate pro-Bush policies while failing to disclose their contracts. In Iraq, the Bush Pentagon hired a company, Lincoln Park, which paid newspapers to plant pro-U.S. articles while pretending it came from Iraqi citizens. In response to all of this, Democrats typically accused the Bush administration of engaging in government-sponsored propaganda -- and when it was done domestically, suggested this was illegal propaganda. Indeed, there is a very strong case to make that what Sunstein is advocating is itself illegal under long-standing statutes prohibiting government "propaganda" within the U.S., aimed at American citizens:

Covert government propaganda is exactly what Sunstein craves. His mentality is indistinguishable from the Bush mindset that led to these abuses, and he hardly tries to claim otherwise. Indeed, he favorably cites both the covert Lincoln Park program as well as Paul Bremer's closing of Iraqi newspapers which published stories the U.S. Government disliked, and justifies them as arguably necessary to combat "false conspiracy theories" in Iraq -- the same goal Sunstein has for the U.S... (much more)>
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/15/sunstein

THIS is from the administration that gave us:

Soon, Bloggers Must Give Full Disclosure

On Monday, the F.T.C. said it would revise rules about endorsements and testimonials in advertising that had been in place since 1980. The new regulations are aimed at the rapidly shifting new-media world and how advertisers are using bloggers and social media sites like Facebook and Twitter to pitch

The F.T.C. said that beginning on Dec. 1, bloggers who review products must disclose any connection with advertisers, including, in most cases, the receipt of free products and whether or not they were paid in any way by advertisers, as occurs frequently. The new rules also take aim at celebrities, who will now need to disclose any ties to companies, should they promote products on a talk show or on Twitter. A second major change, which was not aimed specifically at bloggers or social media, was to eliminate the ability of advertisers to gush about results that differ from what is typical — for instance, from a weight loss supplement... (more)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/06/business/media/06adco.html

Hypocrisy? You decide

Samantha Power, Cass Sunstein and cognitive infiltration or...Who's behind that tweet?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x747477

Cass Sunstein is married to Samantha Power: Samantha Power is currently a Special Assistant to President Barack Obama and runs the Office of Multilateral Affairs and Human Rights as Senior Director of Multilateral Affairs on the Staff of the National Security Council.

[hifiguy]

139. Unquestionably

I have seen articles at HuffPo and comments here with actual links to the ads soliciting for paid trolls to disrupt lefty discussion boards.

They are so thick on the ground over at HP that the site is sometimes unreadable.

Thankfully, the obvious trolls get TS'd pretty rapidly here at DU.

[Bobbie Jo]

143. Divide/Conquer....

The oldest strategy in the book.

Several of "liberals" in character here.

Objective: Demoralize-Discourage-Divide

[malaise]

151. Does cat piss stink?

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[janet118]

154. Not so much dumb down . . . as shut down

The online comments section of the Boston Globe is filled with nasty posts that ridicule anyone who doesn't sound like a right wing talk show host. Most normal people no longer bother to read or participate.

Whether they are paid or just have no lives and voluntarily spread their venom and idiocy, the result is that no rational discussion can take place. It is all about shouting down the opposition and taking control of the floor.

Note: The pro-nuke trolls have been out in force since the meltdown in Japan.

[lunasun]

157. of course