Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 07:54 PM Jan 2018

Capital Punishment Deserves a Quick Death

By THE EDITORIAL BOARDDEC. 31, 2017

<snip>.

Inside the death chamber that morning, prison officials spent more than an hour searching Mr. Campbell’s arms and legs for a vein into which they could inject the lethal drug cocktail. They comforted him as they prepared to kill him, providing the 69-year-old with a wedge pillow to help with breathing problems related to his years of heavy smoking.

After about 80 minutes, they gave up and returned Mr. Campbell to his cell, where he sits awaiting his next date with death, now set for June 5, 2019.

<snip>

The number should be zero. As the nation enters 2018, the Supreme Court is considering whether to hear at least one case asking it to strike down the death penalty, once and for all, for violating the Eighth Amendment’s ban on cruel and unusual punishments.

<snip>

It would be tempting to conclude from this litany, which is drawn from an annual report by the Death Penalty Information Center, that capital punishment is being reserved for the most horrific crimes committed by the most incorrigible offenders. But it would be wrong.

The death penalty is not and has never been about the severity of any given crime. Mental illness, intellectual disability, brain damage, childhood abuse or neglect, abysmal lawyers, minimal judicial review, a white victim — these factors are far more closely associated with who ends up getting executed. Of the 23 people put to death in 2017, all but three had at least one of these factors, according to the report. Eight were younger than 21 at the time of their crime.

More troubling still are the wrongful convictions. In 2017, four more people who had been sentenced to death were exonerated, for a total of 160 since 1973 — a time during which 1,465 people were executed. In many of the exonerations, prosecutors won convictions and sentences despite questionable or nonexistent evidence, pervasive misconduct or a pattern of racial bias. A 2014 study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences extrapolated from known cases of wrongful convictions to estimate that at least 4 percent of all death-row inmates are wrongfully convicted. Against this backdrop, it would take an enormous leap of faith to believe that no innocent person has ever been executed.

<snip>

Leaving it up to individual states is not the solution. It’s true that 19 states and the District of Columbia have already banned capital punishment, four have suspended it and eight others haven’t executed anyone in more than a decade. Some particularly awful state policies have also been eliminated in the past couple of years, like a Florida law that permitted non-unanimous juries to impose death sentences, and an Alabama rule empowering judges to override a jury’s vote for life, even a unanimous one, and impose death.

And yet at the same time, states have passed laws intended to speed up the capital appeals process, despite the growing evidence of legal errors and prosecutorial misconduct that can be hidden for years or longer. Other states have gone to great lengths to hide their lethal-injection protocols from public scrutiny, even as executions with untested drugs have gone awry and pharmaceutical companies have objected to the use of their products to kill people.

<snip>

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/31/opinion/capital-punishment-death-penalty.html

65 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Capital Punishment Deserves a Quick Death (Original Post) marble falls Jan 2018 OP
Capital punishment should be abolished, permanently! democratisphere Jan 2018 #1
I'll go further: mandatory life sentences and life sentences without parole are a chick-shit form... marble falls Jan 2018 #6
You favor getting rid of life sentences? IluvPitties Jan 2018 #8
Not all, just mandatory ones and and ones with no chance of parole. Everyone needs hope to... marble falls Jan 2018 #13
Some people are truly beyond redemption Calculating Jan 2018 #57
Not all criminals are redeemable. Which means not all criminals should be trated the same.... marble falls Jan 2018 #59
I've said that for decades. demosincebirth Jan 2018 #22
Agreed My bottom line: lastlib Jan 2018 #50
Absolutely Agree with you! democratisphere Jan 2018 #53
You rape and/or murder children IluvPitties Jan 2018 #2
And that all turns into a good argument against the death penalty .... marble falls Jan 2018 #4
Nice post. Very convincing. IluvPitties Jan 2018 #5
Its been an evolution for me. The fact that we wrongly convict too many criminals falsely of.... marble falls Jan 2018 #10
I'll take it one step further and point out... Xolodno Jan 2018 #51
Exactly right. The state just hates 'extenuating circumstances', they complicate prosecuting and ... marble falls Jan 2018 #52
And what about when you kill the wrong person. Iggo Jan 2018 #19
Funny how other civilized countries do not murder people. Get it yet?? nt USALiberal Jan 2018 #23
Okay, you lost me at "death penalty for rape" wellst0nev0ter Jan 2018 #34
Thanka for the suggestion, but I'll stay here in Florida. IluvPitties Jan 2018 #35
Make rape (of anyone) a capital offense Mariana Jan 2018 #58
And they're going to get it wrong. A lot. Iggo Jan 2018 #60
I don't have any data that says this is true Mariana Jan 2018 #62
Its logical. Criminals want to get away with it and capital punishment is as far from getting away.. marble falls Jan 2018 #64
If apartheid South Africa could do it, so can we. Sen. Walter Sobchak Jan 2018 #3
I am against Capital Punishment Ferrets are Cool Jan 2018 #7
That's natural. I do too. But then I realize that by being tempted to execute just this one case... marble falls Jan 2018 #11
And if that murder took place in a rural location in the state, Ms. Toad Jan 2018 #18
I know....and the chances of getting it wrong outweigh the Ferrets are Cool Jan 2018 #20
So you want to be like China and Iran, etc and not like UK, Canada, etc? n/t USALiberal Jan 2018 #24
Politely disagree left-of-center2012 Jan 2018 #9
I understand. marble falls Jan 2018 #12
Nope, no upside at all. And look at the other countries who have it and ones who do not! nt USALiberal Jan 2018 #25
Who gets to decide, and at what level? Orrex Jan 2018 #39
There needs to be a test to see whether the death penalty is warranted jmowreader Jan 2018 #14
But ..... marble falls Jan 2018 #15
Number 4 is always a big problem jmowreader Jan 2018 #16
And to keep costs low pursuing "justice". We need more courts and more public defenders with .... marble falls Jan 2018 #17
Eyewitness testimony is one of the most unreliable forms of evidence JonLP24 Jan 2018 #61
To those who still enthusiastically support the death penalty, PoindexterOglethorpe Jan 2018 #21
I always ask this question, but they never answer. They just want revenge. n/t USALiberal Jan 2018 #26
And if its meant to be a deterent, why is our murder rate so high and the EU's so low? marble falls Jan 2018 #28
Strange, isn't it? PoindexterOglethorpe Jan 2018 #33
If it is a deterent, imagine how bad it'd be without it! marble falls Jan 2018 #36
Right. I suppose that the murder rate in all those countries PoindexterOglethorpe Jan 2018 #37
It's worse than you realize! Orrex Jan 2018 #42
Ohhhhh. I never thought of that. PoindexterOglethorpe Jan 2018 #54
55 countries have and use the DP, 37 have it but haven't used it in over 10 yrs.. EX500rider Jan 2018 #48
A wedge pillow to help with his breathing? guillaumeb Jan 2018 #27
I am not God thbobby Jan 2018 #29
The quote actually comes from Fyodor Dostoyevsky. A very thoughtful post. Thankyou for your .... marble falls Jan 2018 #30
I did not know it was from Dostoyevsky! thbobby Jan 2018 #31
I can find sites that credit Dostoyevsky but not from where he wrote it. He was extremely ... marble falls Jan 2018 #32
I've debated capital punishment on and off for about three decades Orrex Jan 2018 #38
Yes. nt. NCTraveler Jan 2018 #41
In the end vengence is all they got. And its the worst sort of vengence .... marble falls Jan 2018 #44
State sanctioned murder needs to end at all levels for all crimes. NCTraveler Jan 2018 #40
State sanctioned murder is exactly what it is, allegedly carried out in your name. marble falls Jan 2018 #45
There's a crime here in Albuquerque ... left-of-center2012 Jan 2018 #43
Thats the problem. As soon as one can find a specific candidate for capital punishismnt it becomes.. marble falls Jan 2018 #46
Its hard to give up for certain cases, but for the greater good I wouldn't oppose banning the DP aikoaiko Jan 2018 #47
There shouldn't be cheerleasding for either position. marble falls Jan 2018 #49
Capital punishment should be abolished permanently. Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #55
Everyone is capable of redemption. No matter what their crime is. But being able to see a way out... marble falls Jan 2018 #56
I agree with abolishing the death penalty. n/t tammywammy Jan 2018 #63
steve earle marble falls Jan 2018 #65

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
6. I'll go further: mandatory life sentences and life sentences without parole are a chick-shit form...
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:35 PM
Jan 2018

of capital punishment.

Would innocence projects take on a life wrongly sentenced life term as they would a capital sentence?

IluvPitties

(3,181 posts)
8. You favor getting rid of life sentences?
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:39 PM
Jan 2018

I am intrigued and humbly willing to evolve when it comes to my views on this issue, so I gotta ask you what's your rationale. Not debating you- just reading and learning.

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
13. Not all, just mandatory ones and and ones with no chance of parole. Everyone needs hope to...
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 09:03 PM
Jan 2018

redeem themselves. And judges are better determiners of sentences than so-called law and order politicians. And I have concerns that innocent prisoners wrongly sentenced to life without parole do not generate the interest in righting their wrongs that an innocent facing death would. I also know of prosecutors who push for life sentences for innocent prisoners who do not want to face death.

I have a problem with all the cases that plead out as opposed to going to trial.

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
59. Not all criminals are redeemable. Which means not all criminals should be trated the same....
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 11:00 PM
Jan 2018

treating them all as the same is not justice. And it should be called "the justice system" out of more than irony.

lastlib

(23,213 posts)
50. Agreed My bottom line:
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:51 PM
Jan 2018

The state should not have the power to take life.

This is where it begins and ends for me.

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
4. And that all turns into a good argument against the death penalty ....
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:24 PM
Jan 2018

1. its based on emotion.
2. creates a system where the death penalty is unequally imposed.
3. the death penalty has no place at any rate for crime where no death results from the crime.

Justice is not only blind it is to be dispassionate. Crime is not dealt with in the justice system to create justice for the "victims", it is to confirm certain values we hold as a society are valid and stand up the deprivations of crime. If life is sanctified as a value in our society than all life is sacred. That is why we don't don't allow the parents of raped children (for example) to participate in the machine of justice. They don't prosecute, judge, jury or punish. They only contribute evidence and testimony.

Waving photos of victims is an appeal to emotion not an argument for justice. At any rate, death penalty or not, there is absolutely no justice for any victim of any crime in the justice system. There is only justice for the accused and society.

IluvPitties

(3,181 posts)
5. Nice post. Very convincing.
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:32 PM
Jan 2018

Still, child abusers need to be put down like rabid dogs. Why keep them alive? I know I am wrong but I can't feel any other way about them.

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
10. Its been an evolution for me. The fact that we wrongly convict too many criminals falsely of....
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:50 PM
Jan 2018

capital crimes to me is argument enough. Here in Texas we put a father to death for burning his three children to death solely on discredited "fire science".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

And this happened after I moved from Illinois where the Governor suspended all executions in his state after 16 men were released from death row and set free in one year.

Every time I think I finally see an individual I start to think would be a poster child for the death penalty it brings it home to me: there is no way to equally and justifiably apply the death penalty simply because I discriminated one person to be killed, and coupled with the many people released from the death house not because the system has a mechanism to correct wrongly sentenced prisoners, but because someone outside the system usually pro bono has moved mountains to expose the prisoner's innocence.

If we hold life sacred it has to be very hard indeed to support the death penalty.

Xolodno

(6,390 posts)
51. I'll take it one step further and point out...
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 05:18 PM
Jan 2018

...the death penalty is just sweeping another problem under the rug.

Why did the person commit the crime? Was it the environment? Was it mental illness? Value system? A combination of things? etc. All of this needs to be studied and understood, and where possible, effect changes to stop it in the future. Better to prevent a crime rather than punish after it happens.

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
52. Exactly right. The state just hates 'extenuating circumstances', they complicate prosecuting and ...
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 05:22 PM
Jan 2018

confuse a jury a prosecutor is trying to shepherd from a to b. They hate c thru z,

IluvPitties

(3,181 posts)
35. Thanka for the suggestion, but I'll stay here in Florida.
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:25 AM
Jan 2018

Anyone who abuses/rapes a child deserves whatever comes to him/her, including the death penalty if available.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
58. Make rape (of anyone) a capital offense
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 10:29 PM
Jan 2018

and then pretty much all the rapists (of anyone) will kill their victims. Think about that. Why would they leave a victim alive to report the crime, identify them, and testify against them, if they'll be executed either way if they're caught and convicted?

They may deserve to die for abusing/raping a child, but to actually make that the law is just fucking stupid.

Iggo

(47,549 posts)
60. And they're going to get it wrong. A lot.
Wed Jan 3, 2018, 09:05 AM
Jan 2018

I just want to hear one of these DP advocates say it out loud: "It's worth killing innocent people as long as we get to kill guilty people."

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
62. I don't have any data that says this is true
Wed Jan 3, 2018, 01:49 PM
Jan 2018

but I strongly suspect that the more heinous the crime, the more likely it is that someone will be falsely convicted. The worst crimes put a tremendous amount of political and social pressure on everyone involved in the process - the police, the prosecutors, the defense attorney, and even the jurors.

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
64. Its logical. Criminals want to get away with it and capital punishment is as far from getting away..
Wed Jan 3, 2018, 02:07 PM
Jan 2018

with as one can get. All sorts of studies have shown that capital punishment is no sort of deterrent to crime and that in fact there are indications that murder rates fall when capital punishment has been ended.

Ferrets are Cool

(21,106 posts)
7. I am against Capital Punishment
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:37 PM
Jan 2018

until I read stories like the one this week where the two women and their young children had their throats slashed while tied to chairs. Then I question my belief.

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
11. That's natural. I do too. But then I realize that by being tempted to execute just this one case...
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 08:57 PM
Jan 2018

I am making an example of how unequally applied the death penalty really is. And we do need these extreme cases to confirm how set our values are. There are four dead in that horrible event, but adding two more will not bring back the dead or give them any measure of justice - there is no justice for the dead. And adding two more corpses to the pile only adds to the death count.

Ms. Toad

(34,062 posts)
18. And if that murder took place in a rural location in the state,
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 09:36 PM
Jan 2018

the defendant would be jailed for life. If it took place in an urban area, the penalty might be death. https://www.aclu.org/other/scattered-justice-geographic-disparities-death-penalty

Even if you beleive the death penalty is appropriate, and even if you can come to grips with the reality that we have (and will continue) to execute innocent men and women, should the penalty be imposed based on where the victim lives (or the race of the victim, or other characteristics that suggests some victims have more value)?

Ferrets are Cool

(21,106 posts)
20. I know....and the chances of getting it wrong outweigh the
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 10:30 PM
Jan 2018

want for "deadly justice". If it were my family, I don't think I could be a reasonable person though.

Orrex

(63,203 posts)
39. Who gets to decide, and at what level?
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 11:53 AM
Jan 2018

We can envision a time, for instance, when a majority might have ruled that a black man should be executed for marrying a white woman. Sure, such "crimes" are absurd to a modern eye, but how will our current assessment of "too horrific" be judged a century from now?

And who gets to decide what qualifies as "too horrific?" Congress? The SCOTUS? Individual states, counties or cities?


Support of capital punishment is simply not consistent with Progressive thinking.

jmowreader

(50,553 posts)
14. There needs to be a test to see whether the death penalty is warranted
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 09:04 PM
Jan 2018

The biggest question: Did anyone who is still alive see the defendant kill the victim? We can go into a lot of other questions...was the killing in self-defense? Was it a crime of passion? How many people did he kill? Did he kill for racial reasons?

Given all that, if there isn't a witness to the actual murder, no death sentence. And none of this "them two boys pulled up in a green convertible and went into the Sac-o-Suds so I went to cook my breakfast...twenty minutes later when I came outside to eat my grits two boys went a'roarin' off in a green convertible and Jimmy Willis was dead, so obviously it musta been them two boys what done it." No sir. If you don't see Bill and Stan shoot the clerk, you can't hang Bill and Stan for shooting the clerk.

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
15. But .....
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 09:23 PM
Jan 2018

1. Few case have that level of witnesses, if they did it might be argued that fewer cases would ever get to trial.

2. There are just too many examples of witnesses being disbelieved because of bigotry, familial or friendly relationships to the accused, the natural disinclination of juries to take anyone's word over police testimony.

3. Mishandled, lost or purposely misinterpreted evidence - and here in Texas there has been big scandals of the CSI labs in Denton and Harris counties throwing literally hundreds of cases into confusion.

https://www.forensicmag.com/news/2014/06/houston-crime-lab-tech-admitted-bad-lab-procedures
https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2011/september/bad-blood-at-the-dallas-county-crime-lab/

4. Over charging defendants or asking for the death penalty to compel defendants to plea to crimes they didn't do. Maybe Prosecutors shouldn't be an elected office or a springboard to other elected offices.

jmowreader

(50,553 posts)
16. Number 4 is always a big problem
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 09:25 PM
Jan 2018

I don't think District Attorneys, sheriffs or judges should be elected officials. There's far too much temptation to overcharge just to make your reelection bid look good.

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
17. And to keep costs low pursuing "justice". We need more courts and more public defenders with ....
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 09:33 PM
Jan 2018

better wages and more resources. Lets face it, like Lenny Bruce one said, "You get all the justice you can afford," which is just one more way that the death penalty is unfairly applied.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,845 posts)
21. To those who still enthusiastically support the death penalty,
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 10:40 PM
Jan 2018

I have to ask: how is it that almost every other country on this planet does without the death penalty?

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,845 posts)
33. Strange, isn't it?
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:45 PM
Jan 2018

Makes you think that the underlying notion that the death penalty keeps people from committing capital crimes might possibly be wrong.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,845 posts)
37. Right. I suppose that the murder rate in all those countries
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 11:07 AM
Jan 2018

that don't have a death penalty is many times more than it is here!

A touch of sarcasm there.

In any case, I seriously doubt that anyone contemplating murder thinks about the possibility of the death penalty before doing the deed. After, maybe. Not before.

Orrex

(63,203 posts)
42. It's worse than you realize!
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:20 PM
Jan 2018

In those countries without capital punishment, just think of all the murders that must be happening without anyone realizing it!

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
27. A wedge pillow to help with his breathing?
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 10:57 PM
Jan 2018

Truly, neither Vonnegut, nor Swift, nor Heller could do better than this in the category of governmental insanity.

thbobby

(1,474 posts)
29. I am not God
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:06 PM
Jan 2018

Many may deserve to die. But I do not have the wisdom nor the right to make that decision.

I do not believe capital punishment deters crime. With appeals process, executions rarely happen within 10 years of crime.

A monster needs to be removed from society for their lifetime. A life sentence that is a life sentence accomplishes that. With the advances being made in brain imagery and function, perhaps a monster can be cathartic to our understanding of deviance. Killing them is more revenge than justice.

There is a quote, I believe from old Sci-Fi story: "A society can be judged by how it treats its prisoners.".

If I was convinced that capital punishment would deter a hideous monster from their crimes, I would feel differently. But it does not.

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
30. The quote actually comes from Fyodor Dostoyevsky. A very thoughtful post. Thankyou for your ....
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:10 PM
Jan 2018

clear and personal position.

thbobby

(1,474 posts)
31. I did not know it was from Dostoyevsky!
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:15 PM
Jan 2018

Thank you for your comment. Do you remember which novel it comes from?

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
32. I can find sites that credit Dostoyevsky but not from where he wrote it. He was extremely ...
Mon Jan 1, 2018, 11:27 PM
Jan 2018

prolific so its very hard to find any specific mention of it.

Orrex

(63,203 posts)
38. I've debated capital punishment on and off for about three decades
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 11:29 AM
Jan 2018

In all that time, I have never once heard an argument in favor of it that didn't, at its core, boil down to pure bloodthirsty vengeance.

It's often couched in high-minded platitudes about "closure for the victims" and "keeping society safe," but these are dubious at best and, again, amount to vengeance.

Other than vengeance, capital punishment serves no end that isn't better served by lifelong incarceration.


Support of capital punishment is inconsistent with a Progressive philosophy.

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
44. In the end vengence is all they got. And its the worst sort of vengence ....
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:28 PM
Jan 2018

for someone they did not know, against someone they did not know, on the basis of incomplete and imperfect information someone else they did not know has meted out according to their own agendas.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
40. State sanctioned murder needs to end at all levels for all crimes.
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 12:03 PM
Jan 2018

How non-violent criminals are dealt with needs to be completely reassessed as well.

left-of-center2012

(34,195 posts)
43. There's a crime here in Albuquerque ...
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 01:30 PM
Jan 2018

This past year a girl was killed on her 10th birthday ~

Her mother had found men on the Internet who came and had sex with the girl;
then a couple of them killed the girl,
dismembered her in the bathtub,
and set her on fire.

Two men and the mother will each be tried for her murder this year.

“New Mexico girl was raped and strangled on 10th birthday, had STD when she died”

Warning: This story contains graphic and disturbing content, and may not be suitable for all readers.

http://wgntv.com/2017/01/12/autopsy-new-mexico-girl-was-raped-and-strangled-on-10th-birthday-had-std-when-she-died/

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
46. Thats the problem. As soon as one can find a specific candidate for capital punishismnt it becomes..
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:39 PM
Jan 2018

unequally applied. Justice is supposed to be blind to who commits the crime and who the crime is committed upon. We prosecute crime in the name of society not in the name of individuals.When we tailor the punishment specifically to a personality the punishment is by nature unequally applied. Murder is murder. Murdering a child is as bad as murdering an adult.

aikoaiko

(34,169 posts)
47. Its hard to give up for certain cases, but for the greater good I wouldn't oppose banning the DP
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 04:41 PM
Jan 2018

I just can't be an anti-DP cheerleader.

Demsrule86

(68,550 posts)
55. Capital punishment should be abolished permanently.
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 09:31 PM
Jan 2018

There is a famous author...Ann Perry who was involved in killing her best friend's Mom...both went to prison they were teens...and were released after some number of years. You have to decide...retribution or rehabilitation...in certain circumstances rehabilitation is possible. If that is not possible than a life sentence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Perry

marble falls

(57,077 posts)
56. Everyone is capable of redemption. No matter what their crime is. But being able to see a way out...
Tue Jan 2, 2018, 09:45 PM
Jan 2018

is critical.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Capital Punishment Deserv...