General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThose of you who think calling for Franken's resignation ...
accomplished anything for the Democratic party, please explain to the rest of us exactly what was achieved.
Did the Republicans follow suit and demand resignations from their party members who have been accused of sexual misconduct?
Did the Republicans withdraw their support of Ray Moore as a result of Democrats ousting Franken?
Were Republicans shamed by Democrats touting a zero tolerance policy, and adopt the same policy for their own party members as a result?
Has any Republican voter changed their political affiliation because the Democrats displayed moral superiority? And was moral superiority actually demonstrated by ousting someone without any investigation into his alleged wrongdoing?
From where Im sitting, I see the Democratic Party as having lost a great warrior for its cause, and a tirelessly outspoken politician who bravely exposed the lies and hypocrisy of the GOP. What I also see is elected Democrats who KNEW Franken was a thorn in the side of Republicans, and agreed to get rid of him rather than stand up for him.
What I also see is Democrats who felt that accusations alone regardless of a lack of proof and facts supporting those accusations should be accepted as credible, without any investigation of who those accusers were, and without any regard to the political motivations behind those accusations.
So all of you who think we gained something by getting rid of Franken without any regard to whether he was guilty or innocent of the accusations made against him please explain to us what was gained here. Tell us what votes were gained by his ousting, tell us what the GOP lost, tell us how putting a Democratic seat in the Senate in play is actually a good thing.
Were all ears so go for it.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)Glorfindel
(9,714 posts)Cute eye-roll, by the way. Does it take a lot a practice to insult your fellow Democrats?
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)And if you really think that was insulting...you don't get out much do ya?
Hekate
(90,529 posts)Got another eyeroll for ya Definitely look forward to our next exchange on another random thread, Kirk Lover.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)light up....but go ahead and feel free to make way more of it then it is. Go ahead and wring your hands because I said fuckedy fuck..
because guess what...I DON'T GIVE A FUCKEDY FUCK.
betsuni
(25,367 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)Why are we discussing less important topics when someone got an eyeroll on DU?
Priorities, people - priorities!!!
still_one
(92,060 posts)Response to Glorfindel (Reply #7)
Post removed
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... with such a precise response, full of factual underpinnings and a thoughtful assessment of the political implications involved.
In case you need it, which you clearly do -
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 2, 2018, 11:03 PM - Edit history (1)
approve!
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... you don't understand - but I'm not surprised that you don't.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)Thanks for the laugh!!
OAITW r.2.0
(24,280 posts)But could you explain what you meant by "Oh for fuckedy fucks sake."?
Had a HS buddy who spoke "fuck", mostly.
Like " You wouldn't fucken believe what a total fucken asshole this fucken dickhead was. The fucker was totally fucked up cuz he kept calling me a fucken asshole."
We eventually drifted. Pete (RIP), liked his speech simple and his beer cold. Because, after awhile, you say, where is this conversation going?
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)Oh no...not another Franken thread. Instead of the boring old for fucks sake...I wanted to spice it up a bit so I threw in a fuckedy.
Granted it's not my best work but it's been a busy day on the various internet sites.
I do understand fuckspeak though and will dabble in it on twitter when necessary and the daily caller, as needed. But it's for a good cause of course.
Response to Kirk Lover (Reply #68)
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Response to Post removed (Reply #79)
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Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Response to Alice11111 (Reply #103)
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rainin
(3,010 posts)member before. I don't think that's the problem. I think he's just trying to disrupt Franken threads. I've seen him do it before. He doesn't contribute to the conversations. He just disrupts.
Duppers
(28,117 posts)Welcome to my ignore list.
🐦
Response to Duppers (Reply #27)
Kirk Lover This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to Kirk Lover (Reply #40)
Skittles This message was self-deleted by its author.
kiri
(789 posts)I refuse to donate to any and all Dems until Gillibrand resigns. Franken is a better Senator and better person than she. Gillibrand did this merely to further her ambitions.
Railroading and hounding before the Ethics committee reports is unacceptable.
Dems did not have to defend this seat. Now Bachman may have a chance to win.
Shame on the DNC and Gillibrand.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)that she once peeped at them in the restroom. Of course not in an inquiry or under oath, but they will look really sad and swear that they weren't paid to say so.
By your "reasoning" she would have to resign.
You lack standing, logic, respect, thought . . . the list goes on. Let's just leave it with the first two words of this paragraph.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)resign and fine you came up with some ridiculous scenario on why she should/could resign. Now all that's left for your 'great idea' is for it to be orchestrated.
It also sounds like you'd actually LIKE that to happen to her...real nice.
Oh and one last thing I don't give half a hair off a rats rump what the fuck you think of me.
And ya know what...there's two words I could leave you with in my last sentence...but I'm not going to do that* ...
*but you have to admit that it's pretty funny.
MrPurple
(985 posts)The scenario they outlined was meant to parallel what happened to Al Franken and illustrate how absurd it was to force him to resign.
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)Bomb throwing and attacks are all.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Hekate
(90,529 posts)Your stance is ill-thought-out and counterproductive. Please reconsider.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)G deserves more heat than she is getting.
She has badly damaged the Senate and our party.
She may be the most divisive Dem ever.
She must go.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)The Franken issue will definitely come up during the 2020 primary, and probably general. Those involved will have to explain their actions. I'm looking forward to hearing what they have to say.
JHB
(37,152 posts)What would be even better would be if she spent the coming year doing her damnedest to %fill Frankens shoes as exposer of Republican bullshit.
Well see what she does.
FarPoint
(12,276 posts)You lack insight into DU.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)doc03
(35,293 posts)lose a great Senator. Now we could have him replaced by a Republican, stupid.
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)Glorfindel
(9,714 posts)You won't get any honest or coherent answers to your most excellent post, but thank you a thousand times for your insight and courage. You make me even prouder to be a Democrat!
sinkingfeeling
(51,434 posts)vote Democratic, but the checkbook is closed. Anybody who was for ousting Sen. Franken ought to read his book, "Giant of the Senate".
zentrum
(9,865 posts)
who spearheaded it.
The Dems lost big time. Plus, it's true, a Republican can now get the seat in the next election.
keithbvadu2
(36,640 posts)Ideological purity... Tie Gillibrand and Bachmann together
Wwcd
(6,288 posts)Its not one, it is ALL of them.
There was no "ringleader". They are adults & they ALL joined hands in the circle.
Not one of them chose to object.
NONE.
Lemmings
WyLoochka
(1,629 posts)will look them up.
True Blue American
(17,981 posts)And,as a Democrat from the time I started voting I am furious with the entire Democratic Senate.
Jeff Sessions is crowing his tiny head off!
Fools,one and all!
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)SoCalMusicLover
(3,194 posts)I will give ZERO support to any of those who spoke up and forced him out, when they choose to run for President in 2020.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Your handle represents how I feel.
PufPuf23
(8,748 posts)No benefit whatsoever for questionable accusations.
Folks get upset with Democratic leadership over events lie this that make no sense when maybe even the best understanding is from competition within the Democratic party. Some of those so accusatory and demanding towards Franken should be looking at the GOP and how they have managed to slide for much more substantial situations.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)Maybe, juuust maybe, she'll turn off enough outstate white voters.
Anyhoo, wouldn't be happening without the party shivving him.
TheDebbieDee
(11,119 posts)I have likened the whole Franken affair as follows: The republicans were shooting themselves in the foot over the Judge Roy Moore endorsement and by the Dems asking Sen Franken to resign, they literally took the gun away from the republicans and shot themselves in the head...
Or, in other words, the Dems took a knife to the gunfight that the republicans started! I was and am still SO EXASPERATED!
Wwcd
(6,288 posts)Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Alice11111
(5,730 posts)I feel like I did when Bill Clinton was impeached, only this time we did it to ourselves.
Bachman and Bannon salivate.
In a nutshell!
Raine
(30,540 posts)bitterross
(4,066 posts)I firmly believe it was a horrible error. We held ourselves not just to the standard to which everyone should be held; but we held Franken to a higher standard. Certainly a higher one than the Republicans will ever hold themselves.
We threw him under the bus so we could say we are oh so righteous. So we could say we are not like the Republicans. We didn't have to do that in the face of no real evidence. In the face of it looking more and more like a setup and hit job.
We got nothing for it! Nothing! We lost - again.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)on a silver platter. They played us like a violin so, so easily.
Don't you see, Nance? This is the way to win seats in '18! This is the way to defeat Republicans!
/Sarcasm
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)By our stupidity.
dalton99a
(81,386 posts)So easily and so fast - thanks to Democrats
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Xipe Totec
(43,888 posts)pecosbob
(7,533 posts)Wwcd
(6,288 posts)Not Biden, not Warren, not Sanders, NONE.
He stands taller than any of them.
I hope Al spends the next year clearing his name in court & the public.
What can the Pukes say about Franken while they seated a rapist & groper in the WHouse.
Not a damned thing.
Franken should run for President in 2020
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Damn them. You are right, all of them together don't make one of him.
Wwcd
(6,288 posts)I want him to be president.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)just like he was one of the best senators ever.
Nederland
(9,976 posts)Franken officially resigned only a few hours ago, and yet you are already complaining that nothing was achieved? Sometimes it takes years for the impact of things like this to be fully felt and understood. Have a little patience...
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... how throwing a Democrat under the bus was a good move" defense.
Care to explain how that works?
dchill
(38,432 posts)Nederland
(9,976 posts)Your question assumes the very thing being debated--i.e. the we are "throwing a Democrat under the bus". I don't believe we are. I believe we are standing by our core principles. You disagree, which is fine.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)finding one of our most important members guilty without even the semblance of any due process then yu are of course correct.
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)It's always been a "core principle" among Democrats that anyone accused of anything is automatically guilty, and should be dealt with accordingly.
Nederland
(9,976 posts)He was convinced by other Democrats that stepping down was in the best interest of the party. I understand that you disagree with that, but please stop pretending that there were no reasons put forth as to why it was the right thing to do.
JHB
(37,152 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 3, 2018, 08:25 AM - Edit history (1)
...is how that argument usually ends, past experience shows.
The people who make it, mysteriously, never seem to use the powder.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)...I guarantee you it won't take YEARS for the impact to be felt and understood. Try mid-2019, when the Republican-dominated Senate and House, and either Trump or Pence, decided to fund their tax breaks by cutting Medicare and Social Security, and then to generate a little re-election security in 2020 by invading somebody. And let's not forget the Supreme Court, shall we? And the other Federal courts?
Nederland
(9,976 posts)...that Smith will lose in November?
kcr
(15,313 posts)No way Trump was beating her. Nailed it, Nederland!
Nederland
(9,976 posts)I simply asked why people think she is doomed to lose. Smith will be running as an incumbent Senator in an off year election where her party doesn't control the White House. History suggests she has a very good chance of winning, so I'm asking people why they are assuming she won't.
tymorial
(3,433 posts)You cannot be serious.
cp
(6,615 posts)Respect and love your posts, NanceGreggs. You are spot on.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)to get rid of someone who would have been a formidable adversary on a primary contest. I can't find any other explanation, as you have laid so brilliantly why none of the assumed reasons made sense.
I believe they will pay dearly for this.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,304 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,304 posts)Accused only by liars, knowing his resignation would do nothing but piss Democrats off, make Republicans laugh and put the seat in peril, he suddenly decides to not go through the investigations he volunteered for. Why?
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)Maybe having been thrown under the bus by his own party members had something to do with it.
Franken did not "suddenly decide" not to go through with the investigation he called for. He decided to resign when he realized that his own party members not only didn't have his back, but were actively fighting against him, and had no interest in any pursuing any "investigations" that may have cleared him.
bucolic_frolic
(43,027 posts)What we lost: a great liberal Senator in the Minnesota homespun Farmer-Democratic mold
A sure seat in 2018 because he wasn't up for re-election.
What we gained:
moral high ground, public display of zero tolerance for even the hint of sex overtures. (Are people really like that, in real life? How were any of us even born if life is that way?)
A chance to seat a new Senator in what is supposed to be a Blue Wave year. I'm skeptical of sure things. Reality often intervenes.
Youth. The Blue Wave if it materializes will be a decade point 3 younger than the white male puritans it replaces.
What we don't know: if Al Franken's political career can be resurrected, renewed, revived. He may have no interest. he may be out, he was railroaded, but he is a railroaded martyr.
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... how that "moral high ground" has gained us anything?
The Republicans elected, support, and continue to defend a self-declared "pussy grabber". Do you think any of them are impressed by anyone's "moral high ground"?
How does a "public display of zero tolerance" square with the idea of everyone being presumed innocent until proven guilty? How do accusations alone equate to guilt when the accused is denied due process, and an opportunity to defend himself?
We lost the "moral high ground" the minute certain Democrats decided that accusations alone - regardless of how devoid of facts those accusations are - were enough to throw a well-respected senator under the bus.
Franken being a "railroaded martyr" has gained us nothing, other than being shown as a party who has no respect for due process.
bucolic_frolic
(43,027 posts)is not in the present, nor necessarily in Minnesota.
I really don't have an answer for your post. It seemed to me at the time that Senator Gillibrand was visceral, was it a female moment of competitiveness, clawing in the back? I don't know, it's almost a subject you can't broach publicly. A pack of females hounded him from public office. No leadership at the party level to centralize and broker strategy. Some say the corporate Dems were glad to be rid of the Agrarian Dem. I don't know.
Al Franken didn't fight this vociferously. In the 90s, Bill Clinton did. Al was contrite, apologetic. It gets one nowhere.
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... should have just apologized for things he never did? He should have been "contrite" in the face of accusations he has denied?
I apologize if I am mis-reading what you're saying - but I really don't understand what point you are trying to make.
bucolic_frolic
(43,027 posts)Sanders : Clinton | Franken : Senate Dems
It was pushed by the same Devils, Stone et. al.
It's terribly unfair, and not something I wanted to happen.
Fanning the flames feeds the division. And helps Stone help Trump help Republicans.
90-percent
(6,828 posts)It was a plot to smear our great Senator Franken, the smart guy that does his homework and is quick witted enough to have a long career as a humorist. The sort of guy that can question Republican witnesses under Oath and trap them into lies that us little people go to jail for.
I wonder what next McCarthyesque take down of an effective Progressive will yield what kind of results? In other words, who's going to be the next pick off by our political enemies? And which Democrat will give Roger Stone yet another victory in this game of politics of personal destruction? How many more times will Roger pull this stunt before any remaining Dem's get wise to the con and reluctantly revert back to basic principles of Democracy, which is the opposite of the Franken lynch mob.
-90% Jimmy
mn9driver
(4,417 posts)With fellow democrats helping. Whos next?
Efilroft Sul
(3,578 posts)I'm sure the good senators from New York are aware of this and are ready to launch an investigation into the matter.
susanna
(5,231 posts)Beartracks
(12,794 posts)catrose
(5,059 posts)Duppers
(28,117 posts)Well stated.
Pobeka
(4,999 posts)Think about the average uneducated voter ... looking at what happened to Franken. Is it not even more clear that the elitist, politically correct party will shoot down their owm members rather than defend them? Now, think how that translates to who you want defending our country's interests in the world -- the dem's who would shoot down their own on sketchy facts and no due process, or the GOP that defends itself no matter how serious the facts or the crime?
I think the dems need to get out in front of this...
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)Now I am even more depressed at what an advocate we have lost. He was everything a Senator should be, and must be. How was he repaid for his dedication and passion? Kicked to the curb and stomped on by the very ones who should have stood by him. I wont ever get over this.
dalton99a
(81,386 posts)This is what people will hear: "Al Franken forced to resign from Senate following sex assault charges"
Truly sickening
Progressive dog
(6,898 posts)doing the right thing is not an accomplishment. In fact, just the attempt to do right rather than cover up should rate praise or at least not trigger condemnation.
Whether we gained from Franken resigning is not the question.
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)Demanding that a Democrat resign - not based on proof, but on accusations alone - was "the right thing"?
"Whether we gained from Franken resigning is not the question."
It is THE question. And apparently you have no answer to that question.
Progressive dog
(6,898 posts)in fact Senator Gillibrand posted this on facebook (per CNN) "While Senator Franken is entitled to have the Ethics Committee conclude its review, I believe it would be better for our country if he sent a clear message that any kind of mistreatment of women in our society isn't acceptable by stepping aside to let someone else serve."
"I believe it would be better" is not a demand.
Ghost Owl
(59 posts)or even truly thought they were doing the right thing, no matter the consequences.
You know why?
Because if Minnesota had a Republican governor, they never would have pressured Franken to resign over unvetted accusations. Never. Because they would lose the seat when the Republican governor appointed a Republican to replace him.
When Menendez was indicted for corruption and accused of soliciting underage prostitutes, Dems weren't calling for his resignation. Because he had a Republican governor.
I think even many of the Dems know this wasn't the right thing. Maybe they thought they had to, because politics, but I don't think they thought it was truly a moral high ground.
You can't claim moral high ground if the only reason you did it was because you KNEW you wouldn't face any consequences.
Also, not investigating these claims does not help the accusers if they were telling the truth. It only sows doubt and uncertainty, which is not fair for them. The reason WaPo so thoroughly vetted and corroborated the Moore accusers was not because they thought they were lying, but because they wanted to help prove they weren't (and doing so helped them catch the Veritas plant as well).
The right thing to do would be to start an investigation, investigate the fuck out of Franken (even if that meant dragging this story out), making sure the Ethics committee has actual teeth, and only asking for a resignation if they believe he's guilty after the claims were vetted, all parties testifying under oath. The right thing to do wasn't to deny the people of Minnesota their vote, based off some unvetted stories in media blogs. If you're gonna kick out a duly elected official, you better be damn sure they did what they're accused of, and you should at least investigate it yourself, and not let Jezebel and Politco do your job for you. And I'd say the same if it was a Republican with a similar scandal.
They just wanted this issue GONE, and didn't much care how they got there. I understand why they wanted it gone, but you can't say it was the right thing, under these circumstances. It was the expedient thing to do, it gave them some superficial good optics, but I don't think it was the right thing to do. For Franken, for his accusers, for the people of Minnesota, for the Trump investigation, for the everyday Democrat, for justice.
ms liberty
(8,549 posts)They wanted the issue gone. I don't think they realized it would infuriate so many people. And a lot of us are still pissed.
Progressive dog
(6,898 posts)made what they judged to be the right choice. They chose consistency with no special favors for party membership. That's what equality is supposed to mean and what Democrats are supposed to stand for. I will trust the judgement of the 32 Democratic Senators who called for Franken to resign.
Ghost Owl
(59 posts)because they did not ask Menendez to resign when he was accused of soliciting underage prostitutes and was indicted on corruption charges. Because he had a Republican governor who would appoint a Republican replacement. That may be politically savvy, but it's not equality.
And how does "Opening an Investigation" not meet the standards of equality and no special favors? It's not like Dems were NOT asking for an investigation into Trump, or to investigate Moore if he would have won.
As it is right now, the Democrats allowed Politico and Jezebel and HuffPost do their jobs for them (and NONE of those accusations had the same level of vetting and investigation as the Moore accusations did; Jezebel does not have the resources WaPo does). Journalism is a cornerstone of democracy, but it should not be doing legislators jobs for them. They never even corroborated the accusations they read in the paper. That's insanity.
Progressive dog
(6,898 posts)because Franken resigned. He was politely asked to. by 32 Democratic Senators, and he did. He chose to leave of his own free will.
BTW I thought attacking Democrats,as you did, was against the rules.You cannot seriously be accusing 32 Democratic Senators of having a secret reason for asking Franken to resign. I hope you aren't sinking to that depth.
dchill
(38,432 posts)How does the concept of due process elude some of us?
Progressive dog
(6,898 posts)process away. He was not denied due process, he fled from due process.
pazzyanne
(6,543 posts)I am spitting mad as a Minnesotan. My vote was taken away from me without due process and without regard to the people who put him in office... Minnesotans! 50% or more of Minnesotans still support Al Franken because we know who he is. When I found out that Michelle Bachmann is thinking about running for his seat, I became nauseous. I use to live in that district when she was in congress. She was the embarrassing forerunner to tRump, and all Minnesotans had to live with that just as America has to live with tRump! That district was very "supportive" of her and re-elected her. Outstate Minnesota is highly conservative in their political views. I now live in an area that went strongly for tRump, and she just might stand a good chance of winning Al Franken's seat. Thanks to all the Democratic senators who help throw Al Franken out, his seat is definitely "up for grabs". I am with Nancy! This was a stupid move by the Democrats. I will do my best to keep Michelle Bachmann out of that seat, but it is definitely not a "shoe in".
Progressive dog
(6,898 posts)not anyone else. He was not expelled, he could have stayed but he chose not to. It's simple and no matter how much you try to blame others, it was all his choice.
pazzyanne
(6,543 posts)more ways to look at this issue except one. Apparently you have your way of seeing things and I have mine. Since this is a discussion forum we can both express our beliefs. We don't have to agree, but no, Al Franken did not take my and other Minnesotan's votes away. That was done be senators willing to jump on the nearest bandwagon for their own purposes. I prefer having due process before condemning someone.
Progressive dog
(6,898 posts)by first understanding that people are responsible for the actions they take. Using Franken's decision to cast blame on Democratic Senators for his actions is not acceptable to me.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)No one cares about this don't you know.
Not a single reply from any of the Senate critters that I wrote to over this. Almost as if the correspondence was never even sent. As if it never happened and no one should ever have to explain just what the fuck they were thinking.
They sure as hell have no problem sending me emails with their problems yet not a peep from a single one of the clowns that jumped on this bandwagon.
At least a couple have publicly expressed remorse over their part in this. But the majority just want to pretend it didn't happen apparently.
To answer your question. Not a damn thing was gained but much was lost. We lost a great senator but we also lost any pretense we believe in Justice. We also sent a strong message that if you are ever accused by someone of sexual impropriety the move is to trash them instantly the idea we should hear women when they come forward was completely and utterly shown to be nothing more than happy talk.
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)Democratic Franken lynch mob for the 2018 primary. When they ask for money, let them now WHY.
spooky3
(34,401 posts)consider supporting Sen. Kaine, Manchin, or any other Sen. who was unwilling to sign on to the resignation communication? Some have tough battles this fall. Warner will have a tough one in coming years.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)John Phillips, a early Trump supporter and partner of Leeann Tweeden at the radio station, just happens to be close friend of Roger Stone, frequent guest at his home in Palm Springs. What an amazing coincidence. NOT !
Link to tweet
aikoaiko
(34,161 posts)I'm not convinced that AF needed to resign but the "what about Frankin" deflections have stopped.
meadowlander
(4,387 posts)I like Al Franken. I didn't want him to resign. I think he should have stuck it out through an ethics investigation. But he did resign and it was his decision.
The resistance is not about any one person. It sucks that he had to take a fall. But we have seriously much bigger fish to fry and we need to be united when we do it and this endless stupid bickering about something that isn't going to change and that even Al Franken knows to STFU about and move on from just gives strength to our enemies.
spooky3
(34,401 posts)been no learning from this on the part of those who should be learning. They might find it easier to move on if they believed that there had been an honest attempt to look at what went wrong and ensure things will be different going forward.
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)He never had to take a fall. And THAT is the point.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)blue cat
(2,415 posts)She would make a very poor candidate for president.
connecticut yankee
(1,728 posts)She's an opportunist, who used the Franken situation to promote herself. She was a pro-gun Conservative when a representative from a conservative district. She suddenly became a "Liberal" when appointed (and re-elected) to the Senate from a liberal state. She'll steamroll over anyone who gets in her way.
mythology
(9,527 posts)based on accusations (which weren't enough to condemn Franken) demanded resignations. That's some rather circular "logic".
Here's the reason to make Franken resign. Sexual harassment, which serial groping most certainly is, is wrong. I don't care if Republicans don't stop supporting Roy Moore (although given Trump won by nearly 28% and Roy Moore lost by 1.5%, your entire point about Republicans not caring is rather absurd on its face). I don't care if Trump doesn't resign. The point of taking a stand against sexual harassment, is that it's bad. Women (and men) need to be safe from sexual harassment. My morality isn't dependent on somebody else agreeing to be good too. Just like we all think George Bush was wrong for supporting torture.
With 8 separate women accusing him, several of whom spoke out at the time, there is an astonishingly small chance he's not guilty. Just like it's astonishingly unlikely that Trump, Moore, Weinstein, Spacey and all the rest aren't guilty. Franken himself could only muster that he didn't remember doing anything. I can remember the exactly zero times I've groped somebody. Do you believe that Trump didn't grope women? That Roy Moore didn't harass minors? That Cosby didn't drug/rape women? Exactly zero of those have been conclusively proven. Why do you only not believe the women who accuse your hero? You act like the accusers posted randomly on Twitter. The news media who reported these had the chance to vet them. Just like the Washington Post found the Project Veritas plant was a fake, these accusers were also investigated.
A Senate ethics investigation would have been a joke. They literally do nothing. The ethics committee dismisses 90+% of all cases summarily. And the "worst" punishment is a letter. There won't be video evidence of this. Just like there's rarely video evidence of rape. What evidence do you think was going to come out in a Senate ethics committee hearing that would change your mind?
But if you want evidence that the Republican perception on sexual harassment is changing, Lindsay Graham, is a sponsor for a bill protecting workers from being forced to go to private arbitration (where employees regularly lose). Last year, he voted to take those protections away.
You aren't thinking about this logically. You don't want to believe it, so you won't see it because you're invested in a particular outcome. It makes for great passion, but not clear thinking.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Especially when the person accused has a long history of working with and around women and not a single one complained of any kind of similar behavior.
Talk about not thinking clearly.
pazzyanne
(6,543 posts)a disillusioned Minnesota. Have lost faith in the Democratic party, but I still won't vote republican unless Guillibrand gets top of the ticket in 2020.
sinkingfeeling
(51,434 posts)don't believe that justice can be determined by the number of accusations brought forth. I don't want to participate in mob mentality. Millions of criminal charges are dropped because of a 'lack of evidence'. Senator Al Franken was denied justice and I will now deny my money from those who passed on due process.
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... sexual harassment, embezzling company funds, selling corporate secrets to a competitor - whatever - you MUST be guilty of doing so.
I just LOVE the "there were eight of them" defense - because everyone knows that guilt or innocence isn't about facts, it's about numbers.
Demit
(11,238 posts)to make a closer parallel scenario for the poster you're replying to.
Oh, and make the story that the temp is telling be provably inaccurate in several ways right off the bat. Add in that she's now an associate of the firm that is your firm's biggest competitor, and is cozy with their corporate hit man, the one who let it be known that it's "your turn in the barrel." Sure enough, your turn in the barrel arrives, with mostly anonymous accusations and a couple which are downright silly. You know you've been doing a good job for your company, and the accusations are so nebulous, that you never dream the company would demand your resignation based on them. But the company figures it will get good PR, and that's more important than giving you a fair shake. So out you go.
(Btw, I've read fluctuating numbers. Some people say eight accusers, some say seven. I know there was a radio personality early on who accused Franken of stalking her. That might be the one that got dropped after somebody took the time to look into it & realize it was bogus.)
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)What is he guilty of exactly? Have you read the ridiculous accusations? He put his hand around my waist for a photo. He LOOKED like he was THINKING of kissing me. What the hell is that? For that we lose one our best Senators? A bored housewife (trust me, I read her agonizingly boring and self absorbed blog) tea party Republican Lindsay Menz asks for a photo and husband takes a picture but doesnt notice him squeezing her ass? Please. Then she shops around her me too story for attention and embellishes by saying Republican John Kline was a perfect gentleman and asked where to put his arms for the photo, but the slimy nasty Democrat Franken grabbed her ass. Seriously???
dalton99a
(81,386 posts)ProfessorGAC
(64,827 posts)I don't want to believe these accusation, because they are hard to believe.
Normally, when i hear about this stuff, i am highly inclined to believe the accuser. In this case, we know, for sure, that one of them had a political motivation, and we also know lied about parts (maybe not all, but parts) of the incident.
Then it comes down to another accuser that Franken simply said had a different recall than did he. IOW, he denied it fully.
Then another one where the accuser admitted this about squeezing her waist during a pose for a picture.
Now add the others that were anonymous and not supported by any specific incidents or locations, or corroborated by anyone who has ever worked closer with Al.
The accusation, in and of themselves, lack credibility.
I don't disbelieve because i don't like the target or the outcome. I disbelieve because the entire matter seems too suspicious to accept at face value.
question everything
(47,425 posts)for forcing my senator out while we, his constituents, had no say.
But the reality is that we do not know how many more were going to come forward - whether telling the truth, or not.
And with each one, he had to issue a statement. Eventually this would have affected his effectiveness.
This is just a sad fact of life.
Mopar151
(9,974 posts)Like it or not, the ladies are often their own worst enemies. I'm particularly disappointed in Senators Shaheen and Hassan falling in line on this - Perhaps fearing marginalization within their own party?
mountain grammy
(26,598 posts)that made this colossal mistake.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)You are asking exactly the correct questions of this debacle.
fierywoman
(7,666 posts)What we lost was his great mind, his ability to analyze, his backbone to ask the hard questions --- that's what makes me sad.
betsuni
(25,367 posts)seta1950
(932 posts)It was like shooting ourselves in the foot. Shame
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... because of this.
elmac
(4,642 posts)in 3 years there won't be anything left in this country worth saving but hey, the DOW will be up biggly, really huge and big.
mudstump
(342 posts)they fight on the battle field of "moral superiority" while the republicans are fighting a real battle by taking over the media, Congress and the White House. Democrats fought a battle with itself and lost.
mudstump
(342 posts)and then complain that so many weren't motivated to vote. We're done voting out of obligation and loyalty to the party. It's time the dems start listening to their base.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)It's a sad day.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)applegrove
(118,461 posts)does anything notable the right wing send out trolls to ruin their name. Last year they had a hate on for Kamala Harris after she made the news last year. Most democrats are heartbroken by Franken leaving but for anger to be directed at one person, a presidential candidate at that, for weeks on end for something that many did to preserve the parties standing, well it looks suspicious. Don't fall for it. We all hope Franken can find an even more powerful role in the good fight against the GOP. We all hurt. The wound does not need to be kept open.
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)From any framework one wants to view this thru. It was a complete capitulation to hysteria without any due process.
Skittles
(153,104 posts)they are too stupid to care about
madamesilverspurs
(15,798 posts)...a totally unnecessary self-inflicted black eye, a completely blank stare from Republicans, and
apparently, yet one more avenue for snide and dismissive condescension.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
.
Anna Izmail
(43 posts)Democrats: "You Republicans voted for a man who treats women inappropriately to be our president and you guys backed a man for senator who dated teen girls."
Republicans: "Yea well you guys do the same. Just look at Al Fra.... Umm ummmm... I mean.. umm"
Democrats: "You were saying? You don't get to play that card while President Trump is in office."
MrPurple
(985 posts)Did you watch Franken question Betsy DeVos & Neil Gorsuch during the confirmation hearings (not to mention Jeff Sessions, who he single-handedly got recused from the Russia investigation)?
We gave up an MVP over an issue that isn't going to decide the election. And, there's a strong chance that the accusations against Franken were entirely fabricated. The public focus would have moved onto other things in the continuous vortex of Trump insanity and an investigation would have shown that the claims against Franken were genuinely questionable. Plus, the Democrats now have to spend resources defending an additional Senate seat in 2018 in a state that Trump only lost by 1%.
It's clearly a net loss.
Anna Izmail
(43 posts)"We gave up an MVP over an issue that isn't going to decide the election."
Candidate Trump lost a lot of support when the bus tape came out letting people hear how he talked about women. Yes he still won but that was because of many other reasons. He would have won by much more if that tape hadn't been released. A lot of women, even republican women do care about how an elected official treats females. That's why what's-his-face lost in Alabama. Many republican women decided that party loyalty isn't more important than how a man treats a woman.
(Edited to correct quote formatting.)
kcr
(15,313 posts)But we still needed to throw over one of our best and most progressive over flimsy accusations made by trump humpers, without a hearing, for these people who don't care enough about pussy grabbing to vote against Trump?
kcr
(15,313 posts)Because they really care about stuff like that! Oh, wait...
ETA and they STILL don't talk about his victims. People who thought this was some grand opportunity to show we have the high ground are fools.
Anna Izmail
(43 posts)He was finished after the tape came out. This is according to Nate Silver of FiveThirtyEight. Many independent women and some republican women abandoned him. Unfortunately Comey decided to step in and cancel out the effects of the tape.
kcr
(15,313 posts)He won.
Anna Izmail
(43 posts)Al Franken quit.
Many Democrats don't think exchanging Al Franken for the moral high ground was a fair trade. However what's done is done. All we can do now is make the best of it. If we don't then Al Franken's sacrifice will be for nothing and that will make his resignation even more painful to those who love him.
We have the moral high ground and we paid a heavy price for it. So let's use it!! Let's beat the Republicans over the head with this issue!
kcr
(15,313 posts)What's done is done? Profound words from the happy-dance crowd. Don't think you're the first who's said it. It's so transparent.
Anna Izmail
(43 posts)It was a no win situation. What I'm saying is we can't change what has happened. We can only make the best of it.
What would you suggest we do?
I'm going to use the tools we've been given and I'm going to hammer the Republicans over and over on this woman issue. I hope our elected officials do the same.
sinkingfeeling
(51,434 posts)donate and vote for him; if he forms a new party, I'll be a member; if he backs someone, I will too; if he says not to support someone, neither will I.
And my checkbook is closed to 35 or 40 Democrats that have proven not to have the capacity to recognize a RNC dirty trick and no longer believe in justice and due process.
PatrickforO
(14,557 posts)This was an extremely ill-advised political move that will hurt rather than help. Franken is a popular man, and was a tireless opponent for the Trump administration. He is also well-known for going all out to help his constituents. Just a genuinely good guy.
Wwcd
(6,288 posts)Did they all forget who all loves this man? Generations love him.
More people love Al Franken than they love all the accusers & finger waggers combined.
He is a national treasure.
Hekate
(90,529 posts)It is so disheartening. I could have accepted a bad result on a bipartisan ethics investigation, disappointing as it would have been. What I cannot accept with any grace at all is Democrats tuening on one of their own like a pack of dogs and driving him into the wilderness without stopping to make the most basic inquiries.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)I weep for his loss.
He was the strongest voice we had in the Senate. Evidently, if you can't equal him, throw him overboard.
There was no credible sex harrasment, RWBS, but mostly, the Dems threw him over without due process, even when he asked for an investigation .
Gothmog
(144,884 posts)Mike Niendorff
(3,456 posts)"Do not do what you would most like to do,
Do what your enemy would least like you to do."
-- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I have to believe that with the indictments that are about to come down against Kushner, Don Jr, and others, that the Dems took a calculated risk that the ongoing distraction of fighting this issue would be worse than the risk to the seat in 2018. So they opted to take the issue out of play. I suspect the same calculus was at work when it comes to John Conyers, as well.
I don't necessarily agree with this strategy, but with what's at stake this year I can see at least a reasonable argument as to why this might be the right thing to do at this time -- even assuming that the claims against Franken were ginned up for political reasons.
To be honest, I'm still on the fence, it's just a really tough call under these extreme circumstances.
MDN
jg10003
(974 posts)Alabama presented a unique opportunity to gain a seat in the reddest of states.
Franken was expendable because he would be replaced by another Dem in a blue state.
Therefore sacrifice an expendable senator in order to help win Alabama.
Forcing Franken out prevented Al. voters from saying "they are all the same".
Did it work?
Maybe Jones would have won anyway, maybe not. But a 1.5% margin (and 22,000 write-in votes) is very close, and forcing Franken out certainly didn't cost Jones any votes.
Schumer wanted that extra seat. Game theory suggests that his calculation was the best way to get it. The risk in forcing Franken to resign was small. The potential gain by doing so was big. It was cynical, ruthless, and very unfair. In other words, it was politics.
kcr
(15,313 posts)That's why we're angry. Apparently he thought he could get away with it because Gillibrand convinced him that women everywhere thought he was guilty with her pitchfork act. Wrong.
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... to sacrifice your queen because it might end in capturing one of your opponent's pawns.
jg10003
(974 posts)replaced by another knight from Minnesota.
NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... by the other side. Schumer picked it up off the board and handed it to his opponent.
I'm not a great chess player - but I think I could beat Schumer without breaking a sweat.
jg10003
(974 posts)rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)Risking a sure seat in the senate was worth losing it in 2020? Minnesota is a purple state, not a blue state unfortunately. I posted this earlier:
I am spitting mad as a Minnesotan. My vote was taken away from me without due process and without regard to the people who put him in office... Minnesotans! 50% or more of Minnesotans still support Al Franken because we know who he is. When I found out that Michelle Bachmann is thinking about running for his seat, I became nauseous. I use to live in that district when she was in congress. She was the embarrassing forerunner to tRump, and all Minnesotans had to live with that just as America has to live with tRump! That district was very "supportive" of her and re-elected her. Outstate Minnesota is highly conservative in their political views. I now live in an area that went strongly for tRump, and she just might stand a good chance of winning Al Franken's seat. Thanks to all the Democratic senators who help throw Al Franken out, his seat is definitely "up for grabs". I am with Nancy! This was a stupid move by the Democrats. I will do my best to keep Michelle Bachmann out of that seat, but it is definitely not a "shoe in".
I stand by this post!
Neema
(1,151 posts)delusional ramblings again.
dalton99a
(81,386 posts)just like in the Oval Office
Neema
(1,151 posts)susanna
(5,231 posts)Franken's ouster was a completely unforced error on the Democratic party's side. This was an epic circular firing squad. It will not be forgotten by many of us...and woe to those who were out front and proud about doing it.
In a nutshell: we gained ZERO from this purity prince/princess act (that is, if you're still counting votes).
And it will come back to bite us. Guaranteed.
I still believe in due process. Evidently, some don't, because "optics" (and if I never hear that word again, I will count myself blessed).
Response to NanceGreggs (Original post)
Post removed
Ernest Partridge
(135 posts)He thought he was elected to serve his constituents in Minnesota.
He didn't get the message: US Senators are supposed to serve the oligarchy.
And so he had to go.
brooklynite
(94,302 posts)wolfie001
(2,199 posts)What a bunch of _________? Fill in the blank!
DLevine
(1,788 posts)It is shameful how Franken was treated by his colleagues. What a tremendous loss for Democrats and Democratic principles.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)demmiblue
(36,816 posts)It was earlier. Anywho, K&R.
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)I'm in Minnesota and I voted for him so proudly and called his office repeatedly in tears asking him to fight it out.
We got Gilibrand positioning herself for 2020. For awhile Franken was mentioned here often as a possible 2020 candidate and she got rid of her competition.
It's a callous and cynical view, but I'm here looking at Bachman run for a seat that wasn't even up for election this year and I am so angry our heating bill can be reduced just due to force of my rage.
Beartracks
(12,794 posts)harun
(11,348 posts)tymorial
(3,433 posts)stonecutter357
(12,693 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)...or has just realized that he is an unreliable narrator when it comes to personal boundaries. That he chose to resign says a lot, I think. That whatever good he hoped to accomplish would have been made more difficult or impossible by whatever was going to be revealed? That he simply wasn't willing to face down all his accusers in public? That he is confident that a replacement will be able to do more?
Hard to say for sure. Almost any other politician probably would have tried to ride it out.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)doesn't mean he was guilty of felony hugging or anything else. It just means he was a good guy. Sheesh!
niyad
(113,021 posts)Proud Liberal Dem
(24,391 posts)If I had to guess, I'm willing to bet that it mostly had to do with winning the Alabama Senate race, not so much in terms of trying to get Republicans to drop their support of Moore, but at least in helping to nullify his defense (by preventing them from engaging in "whataboutism" with Jones and Democrats). I admit that I was pretty mad about what happened with Franken initially and thought it was setting a bad precedent for future accusations against public officials, however, once Franken made the decision to resign, the issue ultimately became moot and now he's gone, so........... If it was about Alabama, Jones ultimately won but it's hard to know for sure if Franken's resignation helped the matter
Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)R B Garr
(16,950 posts)how this was handled so stupidly. They were tee'd up and just got rolled over like fools. It is still very unnerving that they felt they could drive out an elected Senator who was serving his constituents and ALL of us with his inquiries into the GOP traitors. Jeff Sessions must be somewhere partying with Roger Stone. I'm still so livid. Not getting over this one...