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SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:36 PM Jul 2012

Fear drives opposition to gun control

There will be no new gun laws after the Aurora shooting for the basic reason that the American people do not want them.

Over the past 20 years, support for gun control has collapsed in the United States.

Three-quarters of Americans want to keep the right to own handguns, weapons whose only function is to kill human beings at close range. In 1959, 60% of Americans wanted handguns banned outright for all but police officers.

Responding to public opinion, states have loosened gun laws to allow citizens to carry weapons with them almost anywhere they go. In Georgia, Arizona, Tennessee and Virginia, it's legal to carry a gun into a bar. Guns and booze: What could go wrong?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/23/opinion/frum-guns/index.html
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Fear drives opposition to gun control (Original Post) SecularMotion Jul 2012 OP
Actually fear led to a lot of the gun control laws 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #1
Twelve innocent dead in Colorado Fumesucker Jul 2012 #3
12 is the magic number huh? 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #5
Already happened.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #7
So the proper response to giving up lots of our rights out of fear 11 years ago 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #8
All I care about now is the right not to have my grandkids mown down in cold blood.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #13
All I care about is not having my grandkids blown up by terrorists 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #18
Everything but the fucking guns will be gone anyway.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #19
You need to get out more 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #20
I was relating my own experiences.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #23
I think you misinterpret opposition 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #25
Interesting you should bring up football.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #28
So people are talking about banning football now? 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #47
A truly good mental health care system will cost more than any politician is going to spend.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #52
Oh well it'd be expensive and difficult, nevermind then 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #53
Neither one is going to happen.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #57
Um . . . k 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #66
"gloating by some in the pro gun crowd"? Gloating? You actually saw gloating? Where? Links? AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #44
"Give Up".. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #50
No one can look at that web page and find any "gloating" whatsoever. None. AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #54
"Give up" is what you tell the loser.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #55
Nope. Some such as yourself may envision yourself and others as losers. Others may simply want AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #59
I heard that shit in 2000 from Republicans.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #60
You really need to widen your circle. And stop listening so much to Republicans. And stop AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #63
And you need to stop giving commands to people about whom you know nothing. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #65
Somebody other than you then. For you, I know that you claimed that DU gun owners are "gloating". AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #68
Give up... Fumesucker Jul 2012 #69
"It's this sort of juvenile rant that makes the gun-control side such a joke." AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #70
Give up.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #71
Excuse me if I don't accept the Jim Jones koolaid. Tejas Jul 2012 #74
It's this sort of juvenile rant that makes the gun-control side such a joke. rl6214 Jul 2012 #21
I love you too... Fumesucker Jul 2012 #24
Nope, and how many of them are in there on petty drug charges? rl6214 Jul 2012 #33
Beyond my pay grade.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #35
"courts are revolving doors in the USA" - and? Tejas Jul 2012 #75
Name a nation on this planet that has a bigger percentage of its citizens incarcerated than the USA. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #78
You'd love Chicago. Guns are completely banned. Only 45 shot over Memorial Day shadowrider Jul 2012 #27
Evidently the UK is a remarkably target rich environment.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #29
You've lamented before how many we put in prison 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #31
I'm having trouble imagining how such a situation could come about in a rational society.. Fumesucker Jul 2012 #38
Huh? 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #46
Is it rational to deal rationally with an irrational society? Fumesucker Jul 2012 #56
I would say we're semi-rational 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #67
It all depends on who's taking the rights away... NewMoonTherian Jul 2012 #9
he says it's tv news and not the NRA that's driving this. Kaleva Jul 2012 #2
it's not fear, it's common sense. bowens43 Jul 2012 #4
It's the ammunition. Gregorian Jul 2012 #6
And I see it differently. NewMoonTherian Jul 2012 #12
I believe nonviolence is the only way toward a world where people can live side by side in peace. Gregorian Jul 2012 #17
That is a beautiful philosophy. NewMoonTherian Jul 2012 #42
That really does give me something to think about. Gregorian Jul 2012 #73
Hey, I'm glad we can share ideas. NewMoonTherian Jul 2012 #77
"get rid of the guns and ... ammunition, and gun violence goes away"? Ever hear of Timothy McVeigh? AnotherMcIntosh Jul 2012 #10
Thank you. There are a few of us that favor actual solutions over impossible and ineffective Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #37
Gee, that's a TON of help to the dead. Zoeisright Jul 2012 #62
Nothing can help the dead except possibly to reduce the numbers that will follow them. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #64
Really? atreides1 Jul 2012 #14
I believe that's called 'projection'. Edweird Jul 2012 #11
Of course it does. The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2012 #15
Spot on bongbong Jul 2012 #61
We are a nation of terrified little children. sadbear Jul 2012 #16
fear and loathing seem to drive a lot of the gun control conversation on both sides arely staircase Jul 2012 #22
Any post saying it wants to discuss gun control that starts out: shadowrider Jul 2012 #30
i dont have a team arely staircase Jul 2012 #51
one of my gun-crazy friends is afraid to go to the grocery without his gun Lex Jul 2012 #26
He has a point shadowrider Jul 2012 #32
No, he's scared. He is a fearful person. It's sad Lex Jul 2012 #34
Nope, irrationally fearful of the unlikely, as are you, apparently. n/t Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #39
Unlikely only needs to happen once. As you can't guarantee my personal safety shadowrider Jul 2012 #40
I can only give you the exact same guarantee that all of us have. We are going to die. Egalitarian Thug Jul 2012 #58
Exactly. I still go hiking even though a tree could potentially fall Lex Jul 2012 #41
Romney’s Church and gun control vanlandingham Jul 2012 #36
Name of site? Link to site? Control-Z Jul 2012 #45
Name of site vanlandingham Jul 2012 #72
Actually, the opposite is true. mmonk Jul 2012 #43
fear is what drives people to gun ownership. Bluerthanblue Jul 2012 #48
And mass murder WITH GUNS drives the fear. longship Jul 2012 #49
The NRA has been a successful corporate lobbying group -- some of their shills are in this thread villager Jul 2012 #76

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
3. Twelve innocent dead in Colorado
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:48 PM
Jul 2012

The fear on one side is legitimate, people are being slaughtered in wholesale numbers..

Or does it have to be a baker's dozen before we can invoke wholesale?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
7. Already happened..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:58 PM
Jul 2012

We had no say in that either..

It's the second amendment fanatics here that are driving me toward supporting gun control.

Someone here on DU with the intelligence of slime mold told me a while ago that the reason the USA has a high murder rate is because the courts are "revolving doors"...

Complete and utter bullshit, the land of the free has the highest incarceration rate on the entire damn planet, our courts are notoriously apt to hand out long sentences..



 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
8. So the proper response to giving up lots of our rights out of fear 11 years ago
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:00 PM
Jul 2012

is to give up even more of our rights out of fear today?

I guess if we do anything less the terrorists will have won . . .

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
13. All I care about now is the right not to have my grandkids mown down in cold blood..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:13 PM
Jul 2012

The idiotic arguments I'm hearing against gun control are really getting old..

The courts are revolving doors in the USA, that's why gun violence is so high..

To quote Jack Nicholson, go peddle crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here..

Fuck the guns, the damn gunners were falling all over themselves and staining their crotches with fear when Dubya was raping the bill of rights, anyone who dared speak against the Patriot act was a fucking traitor. The gunners didn't give a fuck about my pony getting stomped into a red mud puddle why should I care about theirs?



 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
18. All I care about is not having my grandkids blown up by terrorists
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:52 PM
Jul 2012

Please define a criteria that clearly separates your title line from mine.

The courts are revolving doors in the USA, that's why gun violence is so high..


Someone indeed may have said that. But if you check you'll find it wasn't I.


Fuck the guns, the damn gunners were falling all over themselves and staining their crotches with fear when Dubya was raping the bill of rights, anyone who dared speak against the Patriot act was a fucking traitor. The gunners didn't give a fuck about my pony getting stomped into a red mud puddle why should I care about theirs?


So we should descend in to fascism to stick it to those people who did nothing to prevent us from descending in to fascism?

How safe and happy do you suppose your grandkids will be once our last rights have been stripped away for national security reasons?

You know what may have prevented this? Allowing cops to search homes at random without warning. Having armed checkpoints at every streetcorner complete with metal detectors and no-challenge friskings. Stripping people of their rights entirely because someone else "felt weird" about them and reported them to authorities (no trial necessary). Oh and requiring papers at those checkpoints to prove your need to be traveling through that part of town.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
19. Everything but the fucking guns will be gone anyway..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:01 PM
Jul 2012

Every single gun aficionado I know is pro drug war, pro war on terror and pro theocracy..

I'm not talking about the guy with maybe a rifle or a shotgun or even a handgun or two but rather the people who eat, sleep and breathe guns, they are assholes to the core. I got a completely unsolicited lecture at a kid's birthday party from one the other day and she's actually a fairly pleasant person if you keep her off of guns and politics.

We've already descended into fascism and the fucking guns won't make a bit of difference as far as getting out, I don't even think it's possible.

http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
20. You need to get out more
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:26 PM
Jul 2012
Every single gun aficionado I know is pro drug war, pro war on terror and pro theocracy..


Every single anti-gun person I've met engages in broad-brush smears based on their own prejudices.



I'm not talking about the guy with maybe a rifle or a shotgun or even a handgun or two but rather the people who eat, sleep and breathe guns, they are assholes to the core. I got a completely unsolicited lecture at a kid's birthday party from one the other day and she's actually a fairly pleasant person if you keep her off of guns and politics.


Sounds kinda like vegans.

We've already descended into fascism and the fucking guns won't make a bit of difference as far as getting out, I don't even think it's possible.


Then isn't worrying about preventing your grandkids from being shot a moot point? Best smuggle them across the Alps to switzerland.


Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
23. I was relating my own experiences..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:36 PM
Jul 2012

It's what I have to judge from, yes I judge others, we all do. If I knew some really liberal person who was fascinated by guns it would change my judgement but I don't.

The thing is that I wasn't anti gun until just recently, I've described myself as agnostic on the subject many times on DU.

The gloating by some in the pro gun crowd is too much "You can't do anything to even slow down the mass killings and we're happy you can't" is the vibe I'm getting, some pro gunners have pushed me into the other camp, their lack of sympathy and understanding for the dead and wounded as well as families and those who are just upset by the killing is shameful.



 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
25. I think you misinterpret opposition
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:43 PM
Jul 2012

to feel-good but ultimately worthless legislation as well as rampant ignorance to lack of sympathy for the victims.

I haven't seen any posts that were sincerely grieving for the victims (and nothing else) that were derailed by a pro-gun advocate initiating a discussion on why they're against gun-control.

I have seen many respond to such posts where others first used those corpses to push their own anti-gun platform.

If you use some tragedy to push, I dunno, banning football you could expect football fans to counter those claims. Does that mean football fans are inherently pro-tragedy?

Go look at some of the posts around here. See how many are initiated by "gun nuts" and use these bodies to further their agenda. Then see how many are started by anti-gun types using these bodies to push their agenda.

What you describe is real, just backwards.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
28. Interesting you should bring up football..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:50 PM
Jul 2012

Take a look at what's happening with Paterno, they took that statue out first thing on the weekend morning to avoid a confrontation with Paterno supporters..

People are searching for anything to stop or hell, even slow down the senseless violence, we certainly aren't going to get mental health care to a degree that's going to make a significant difference, the only thing people can see amenable to any sort of change is to try and get guns out of the hands of deranged people on some kind of vendetta. Then we are told can't do that either..

This level of mass violence is intolerable in a truly civilized country, that we tolerate if not encourage it says a lot about us, none of it good.

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
47. So people are talking about banning football now?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:51 PM
Jul 2012

All of it, everywhere to address that crime?

And it's pretty amazing how quickly you gave up on the mental health approach when that is clearly the best option.

Sane people don't go on these shooting rampages. Sane people don't blow up federal buildings. Sane people don't fly airliners in to buildings or set fires to crowded buildings, or murder people with knives or poison or baseball bats or . .. .

What's the common element to all those crimes? If you guessed guns try again.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
52. A truly good mental health care system will cost more than any politician is going to spend..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 07:08 PM
Jul 2012

Mental health in particular requires intelligent and trained professionals to properly diagnose and treat mental illness, it's a boutique, individual kind of care that's very expensive done right..

My point was that even Paterno, as vile as he turned out to be, has die hard defenders..

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
53. Oh well it'd be expensive and difficult, nevermind then
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 07:10 PM
Jul 2012

Instead let's work on disarming 100+ million americans plus however many have guns illegally.

That'll be cheap and easy.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
57. Neither one is going to happen..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 07:20 PM
Jul 2012

The job creators require another tax cut and then they'll finally feel confident enough to create some minimum wage part time jobs.



 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
54. No one can look at that web page and find any "gloating" whatsoever. None.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 07:10 PM
Jul 2012
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gloat

gloat /glōt/
intransitive verb:

to observe or think about something with triumphant and often malicious satisfaction, gratification, or delight (gloat over an enemy's misfortune)

You've made the claim at #23, "The gloating by some in the pro gun crowd is too much 'You can't do anything to even slow down the mass killings and we're happy you can't' is the vibe I'm getting... " Back it up. Show me or anyone that someone was displaying a "triumphant and often malicious satisfaction, gratification, or delight" while saying that they were "happy."

The alleged gloating-type posts either exists or they do not. Posting a link to a page where such alleged gloating-type posts exists doesn't show that they exists. You've found gloating-type posts? Where are they?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
55. "Give up" is what you tell the loser..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 07:16 PM
Jul 2012

The poster was clearly delighted that nothing could and would be done at least in his opinion.

It.Was.A.Gloat

Give up.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
59. Nope. Some such as yourself may envision yourself and others as losers. Others may simply want
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 08:16 PM
Jul 2012

proselytizer such as yourself to stop the proselytizing effort.

The previous poster on the web site that you linked to didn't display any pleasure. He simply wanted the proselytizers to stop the irrational posting and proselytizing.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
63. You really need to widen your circle. And stop listening so much to Republicans. And stop
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:18 PM
Jul 2012

doing the things that Republicans do.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
68. Somebody other than you then. For you, I know that you claimed that DU gun owners are "gloating".
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:01 PM
Jul 2012

I.e., "The gloating by some in the pro gun crowd is too much." (#23).

Because this seemed to be a little over the top, I know that when I asked you for further information and a link to any page where a DU gun owner was gloating, you provided a link to a page that does not support that.

In addition, I know that when I said that I did not see any such gloating, you expanded upon what you origional said and added, "The poster was clearly delighted that nothing could and would be done at least in his opinion. It.Was.A.Gloat"

When I clearly explained at #59 that "The previous poster on the web site that you linked to didn't display any pleasure. He simply wanted the proselytizers to stop the irrational posting and proselytizing," I know that you responded with a smear at #60 and suggested that those DUers that hold views contrary to yours are Republicans (or Republican sympathizers) by saying, "I heard that shit in 2000 from Republicans .."

Now you imply, notwithstanding your displayed conduct, that I know nothing about you. I do know something about you.



Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
69. Give up...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:11 PM
Jul 2012

Makes you feel warm all over doesn't it?

Give up.

He wanted people to give up any hope for positive change..

Give up.

Your own opinion is no more valid than my own.

Give up.

Give up.

Give up.

Give up.

Lovely positive message that..



 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
70. "It's this sort of juvenile rant that makes the gun-control side such a joke."
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:20 PM
Jul 2012

No doubt that you've heard this before.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
71. Give up..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 10:36 PM
Jul 2012

Give up, such a positive message to extend to those who are horrified by what just happened in Colorado, guaranteed to bring on mutual feelings of appreciation and trust.

Give up and realize there's not a fucking thing you can do to stop the next massacre and the one after that and the one after that..

Give up, it's the smart thing for losers to do because you'll always be losers no matter how hard you try..

Aren't you glad we've had this little pep talk? I'm sure you're all calm and rational now.

Give up loser..







 

Tejas

(4,759 posts)
74. Excuse me if I don't accept the Jim Jones koolaid.
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 01:14 PM
Jul 2012

"We've already descended into fascism and the fucking guns won't make a bit of difference as far as getting out, I don't even think it's possible."


I'm not yet ready to just follow lemmings off the cliff.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
24. I love you too...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:37 PM
Jul 2012






ETA: While we're chatting, are you familiar with a nation on this planet that has a higher incarceration rate than the land of the free?



 

rl6214

(8,142 posts)
33. Nope, and how many of them are in there on petty drug charges?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:00 PM
Jul 2012

RElease all of them and we probably won't be at #1

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
35. Beyond my pay grade..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:11 PM
Jul 2012

You'll have to apply pressure just a bit further up the social ladder, I'm busy hanging on to the feet with my fingernails.

Personally I believe that to be wishful thinking, the prison industrial complex is a force of its own and has been for quite some time now, far too much graft and outright corruption for it to change significantly without a truly tremendous social upheaval that's not going to happen until the smart phones and the cable TV are shut off.

The most powerful lobbying group in California is the prison guard's union, do you think they're going to lobby for decreased sentences for petty criminals?



 

Tejas

(4,759 posts)
75. "courts are revolving doors in the USA" - and?
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 01:20 PM
Jul 2012

"The courts are revolving doors in the USA, that's why gun violence is so high."



So, leave me the f*** alone and go stop the revolving door for violent felons.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
78. Name a nation on this planet that has a bigger percentage of its citizens incarcerated than the USA.
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 09:19 PM
Jul 2012

The reasoning is remarkably simple, describing the most incarceration happy nation on the damn planet as having "revolving door courts" is stupidity that would make a bag of rubber hammers look like Stephen Hawking..







shadowrider

(4,941 posts)
27. You'd love Chicago. Guns are completely banned. Only 45 shot over Memorial Day
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:46 PM
Jul 2012

Tell me, what more gun control can you have in a city where they're banned?

Just curious

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
29. Evidently the UK is a remarkably target rich environment..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:52 PM
Jul 2012

Odd that they should have so few shooting target practice.

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
31. You've lamented before how many we put in prison
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:58 PM
Jul 2012

right?

Do you suppose we might have a screwy legal system that puts too many resources towards non-violent offenders (drug users), thus stripping resources away from dealing with violent offenders all the while fueling a drug war that promotes violence within our cities?

Is that maybe possible?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
38. I'm having trouble imagining how such a situation could come about in a rational society..
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:23 PM
Jul 2012

And our society is indeed rational, isn't it?

These prisoners are someone's brother, daughter, aunt, cousin, do these people not care if their loved ones are cruelly imprisoned for trivia?





 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
46. Huh?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:48 PM
Jul 2012

Are you denying that the scenario I described is indeed the society we live in?

And no, we aren't a rational society.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
56. Is it rational to deal rationally with an irrational society?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 07:18 PM
Jul 2012

Or would irrationality work better?

Watching Republicans for the last thirty years leads me to think irrationality is an easier sell.

NewMoonTherian

(883 posts)
9. It all depends on who's taking the rights away...
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:02 PM
Jul 2012

and which ones they want to take. If we would get our act together and start standing up for all rights, against all threats, maybe we wouldn't be in such sorry shape.

Kaleva

(36,147 posts)
2. he says it's tv news and not the NRA that's driving this.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:47 PM
Jul 2012

" It is local TV programming directors, not the National Rifle Association, who are tirelessly persuading Americans that they need to strap a gun to their legs before heading to the mall."

 

bowens43

(16,064 posts)
4. it's not fear, it's common sense.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:49 PM
Jul 2012

get rid of the guns and more easily, the ammunition, and gun violence goes away....it works.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
6. It's the ammunition.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 03:57 PM
Jul 2012

That's what I've been thinking as well.

And just what is the Second Amendment for? Protecting the people against the government, or to help defend our government? I think it's pretty obvious. And it means the Amendment is way outdated.

Guns suck. Let's grow up. Land of the brave? Hardly. Bravery means standing in the face of power without the means of destruction of one's enemy. That's how I see it.

NewMoonTherian

(883 posts)
12. And I see it differently.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:10 PM
Jul 2012

Bravery is noble, and sometimes, it even works. But if you're brave and you still get wiped out, bravery didn't help that much. Bravery plus the means to achieve victory can actually effect positive change.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
17. I believe nonviolence is the only way toward a world where people can live side by side in peace.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:33 PM
Jul 2012

Violence only begets more violence.

NewMoonTherian

(883 posts)
42. That is a beautiful philosophy.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:34 PM
Jul 2012

And one you should be proud to adhere to. But it that really the case?

I submit to you that violence can beget great things.

Violence begot American independence(and the liberation of many other oppressed peoples throughout history).

It begot the end of slavery and the preservation of the United States.

It begot the end of the (name withheld to avoid triggering Godwin's Law) regime and saved the lives of millions of Jews, homosexuals, handicapped people and other victims of the (withheld)'s.

It also begets destruction, poverty, death and misery. Violence is a horrible thing, but there are times when it is necessary.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
73. That really does give me something to think about.
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 01:09 PM
Jul 2012

It may just be that we'll never be able to answer this question. Hell, Jesus used violence against the money creeps in the temple.

I guess it depends upon what the final outcome is to be. And that isn't something we'll ever know. Sheesh, I don't know. And after posting my thoughts I felt like they were naive. I want to save the planet, but you find me killing people who use fossil fuel to accomplish that task. Although, short of doing so, we're headed for massive suffering. Oh, I shouldn't have posted that.

NewMoonTherian

(883 posts)
77. Hey, I'm glad we can share ideas.
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 03:25 PM
Jul 2012

I sure don't have all the answers. We just do the best we can with what we've got.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
10. "get rid of the guns and ... ammunition, and gun violence goes away"? Ever hear of Timothy McVeigh?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:07 PM
Jul 2012

Get rid of social injustice and the sense of dispair held by some isolated young men who sense that they have no future.

Get rid of the social injustice caused by the super-rich, the banksters, and the politicians who want to create perpetual debtors out of ordinary Americans while shipping jobs to foreign countries.

Do that and gun violence will go away. But where's your concern for that? Why aren't you connecting the dots between the dispair caused by the social injustice and people like the shooter? Guns are the issue? Timothy McVeigh, for one, didn't use a gun.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
37. Thank you. There are a few of us that favor actual solutions over impossible and ineffective
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:16 PM
Jul 2012

emotional gratification. The truly insane people that do this kind of thing are pretty easily spotted, the pattern is well-known, and I'm sure this guy is going to be found to fit it as well. But there is no help to speak of available for them, so there's little point in going to the effort and expense of identifying them, especially when we would find the numbers of men that fit the profile are much larger than we like to pretend they are.

The price we pay to keep this crazy train running is absurd.

Zoeisright

(8,339 posts)
62. Gee, that's a TON of help to the dead.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:07 PM
Jul 2012

And their grieving families. Thanks for continuing to spread the problem.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
64. Nothing can help the dead except possibly to reduce the numbers that will follow them.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 09:20 PM
Jul 2012

Do you imagine that these families are the first or last to go through this? How outraged do you get over the other 11,000 people that died that same day? How about the family who's daughter was raped and shot in California while this Colorado tragedy was going on? Do you think they're all excited about the media frenzy over this? Do you think they even noticed that this happened?

You self-righteous indignation over a tangential issue is the problem, not a solution. You want to yell and scream over something you can't do anything about while the families of all those that died today are completely unaware that you even exist.

AnotherMcIntosh has put forth a potential solution, and here you are jabbering nonsense with the sole purpose of making you feel better.

atreides1

(16,047 posts)
14. Really?
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:17 PM
Jul 2012

Do you truly believe that? And only allow law enforcement and the military to have them...like the police in Anaheim?

Where exactly is this Utopian land you speak of?

 

Edweird

(8,570 posts)
11. I believe that's called 'projection'.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:08 PM
Jul 2012

Fearmongering is being used in a drive to take away our civil rights.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,281 posts)
15. Of course it does.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:18 PM
Jul 2012

There have been studies suggesting that conservatives in particular tend to be a fearful lot. Since they are easily frightened it doesn't take much to convince them that they need guns, lots of them, in order to be safe. Safe from what, you ask? If you are worried about being attacked by robbers in your home and you think a firearm would be a good thing to have, an ordinary shotgun is all that's necessary. They are simple to operate and don't require a lot of accuracy; what you don't need to protect your home from robbers is a whole arsenal of AK-47s and the like. Most people can shoot only one gun at a time.

If you work in an area or a profession where you are exposed to the threat of street crime, maybe a handgun would be appropriate. One of them. If somebody tries to mug you in a dark alley that single weapon would probably be all you need - there again, you won't need (or be able to use) an arsenal. Otherwise, what do you need any kind of gun for (I'm not referring here to hunters, target shooters and collectors)?

Unless you're afraid, and having guns makes you feel safer and stronger and more powerful.

Again, I am not referring to hunters and target shooters and collectors. I'm talking about those people - largely of the conservative stripe - who think they need a whole buttload of guns in order to be "safe." But, again, safe from what? The dangers most people might encounter in their everyday lives do not require a whole buttload of guns, although some of these Walter Mitty types might have fantasies about single-handedly blowing away an army of marauding welfare mothers, Occupiers and college professors, not to mention Islamic terrorists who have decided for some reason to invade their back yards in Bumfuck, Kansas.

If you start digging a little deeper, though, you will likely find that the fearful conservative thinks that what he needs a whole buttload of guns for is to protect himself from "the gummint." Because, after all, that's who wants to take them away from him - and then he won't be safe from them. (This begs the question of what will happen to him after the gummint takes his guns away - will they ship him off to a reeducation camp where he will be forced to enter into a gay marriage and convert to Islam and eat arugula?)

Get real, teabagger dude. If the gummint really wanted to invade your home and take away your guns and make you watch The Rachel Maddow Show, they can do it. Even if you have your very own AK-47 and a whole damn basement full of ammo, the gummint will always have more firepower than you can ever dream of. They'll win. If they got Osama bin Laden they can get you; your sad little gun collection isn't going to make a Navy Seal even blink.

Not that the gummint is actually interested in the sad little gun collection of Joe Teabag. But Joe Teabag doesn't believe that. And he's scared.

Enter the NRA, which has been throwing napalm on the fires of Joe Teabag's fright for decades. The NRA claims its only purpose is to stick up for the Constitutional rights of hunters and other law-abiding gun enthusiasts.

Right.

The NRA is, more than anything, the propaganda arm of the weapons and ammunition manufacturers, who are profiting mightily from the fears of all the Joe Teabags, who have been buying their products as fast as they can make them. All the NRA has to do to send Joe in a panic to the closest gun shop is get out the word that Obama and the Democrats are fixin' to take their guns away. Better stock up now, before it's too late! Otherwise how are you gonna defend yourself when the gummint and the black people and the Muslims bust right through your front door?

It's all about the fear.

sadbear

(4,340 posts)
16. We are a nation of terrified little children.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 04:25 PM
Jul 2012

We're afraid of our own damn shadows. So it's a good thing you can't shoot your shadow.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
22. fear and loathing seem to drive a lot of the gun control conversation on both sides
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:34 PM
Jul 2012

neither wants to give an inch, neither seems willing to listen (or for that matter talk rationally) to the other side. both ascribe the worst possible motives to the other.

Sad really.

shadowrider

(4,941 posts)
30. Any post saying it wants to discuss gun control that starts out:
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:53 PM
Jul 2012

You NRA loving Zimmermans and your death spewers can't leave your house without stuffing a gun or two down your pants.

really doesn't offer the incentive to carry the discussion forward.

Don't believe me? Hang out in the gungeon for a few days. You'll wind up shaking your head.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
51. i dont have a team
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 07:06 PM
Jul 2012

when its:

all guns must be banned

vs.

the right tote around the firepower of a platoon of marines

and nobody will budge, they see one another as "tramplers of rights" or "fetishists".

Lex

(34,108 posts)
26. one of my gun-crazy friends is afraid to go to the grocery without his gun
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:45 PM
Jul 2012

he is scared of his own shadow

shadowrider

(4,941 posts)
32. He has a point
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 05:58 PM
Jul 2012
http://isearch.avg.com/search?q=grocery+store+shootings&sap=nt&lang=us&mid=972b6a4d2a6c50fcb69c96f13a090ffa-79f85106057d3d589fc5e55fba524b5c9dd86f84&cid={7f87fb1d-9b03-4d3c-bde8-147ff4b37e92}&v=11.1.0.12&ds=AVG&d=12%2F4%2F2011+6%3A03%3A38+AM&pr=fr&snd=hp

10 grocery store shootings on just the first page. Evil knows no bounds and you know not when it will strike next.

Your friend isn't scared, he's prepared.

Lex

(34,108 posts)
34. No, he's scared. He is a fearful person. It's sad
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:04 PM
Jul 2012

to be constantly so afraid you can't even enjoy the simplest tasks without being armed. He would sit home in fear rather than go anywhere unarmed. Sad.



shadowrider

(4,941 posts)
40. Unlikely only needs to happen once. As you can't guarantee my personal safety
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:31 PM
Jul 2012

and I'm not Bloomy and can't afford personal protection, I'm left to my own devices.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
58. I can only give you the exact same guarantee that all of us have. We are going to die.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 07:58 PM
Jul 2012

Living your life in perpetual fear of that is pathological and will make you unhappy. Therefore, you are diminishing your enjoyment of time you have worrying about what might happen. Sure, you might walk into an armed robbery in progress and being armed, trained, and experienced have a better chance of walking out, but you also realize, I'm sure, that the most lethal, best trained bass-ass on earth can still come out on the wrong end of that scenario.

Safety is an illusion, so don't waste a minute of the time you know you do have worrying about what you cannot know and cannot change.

Or not. What the fuck do I know?

Lex

(34,108 posts)
41. Exactly. I still go hiking even though a tree could potentially fall
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:31 PM
Jul 2012

on me, and I still go outside even though lightning could strike me. I still go to the store without a gun although I suppose I could get shot (which could happen even if I had a gun).



vanlandingham

(5 posts)
36. Romney’s Church and gun control
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:16 PM
Jul 2012

Mitt Romney’s Mormon Church owns one of the most active and unregulated gun sale websites in America that allows unscrupulous criminals to buy firearm without it being traced back to them or having to submit to a background check. Romney was a high ranking Mormon Bishop, a stake president and so one of the managers of the church. The site is owned by Deseret Media, the for-profit arm of the Romney’s Mormon Church.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
43. Actually, the opposite is true.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:37 PM
Jul 2012

Every time there is a mass shooting, the gun lobby and it's supporters and conspiracy theorists panic.

Bluerthanblue

(13,669 posts)
48. fear is what drives people to gun ownership.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:54 PM
Jul 2012

People are afraid of death, and think that a gun will help them avoid it.

Death always wins in the end.

longship

(40,416 posts)
49. And mass murder WITH GUNS drives the fear.
Mon Jul 23, 2012, 06:55 PM
Jul 2012

When people no longer feel safe going to a movie theatre, walking to class on a campus, eating lunch at high school, or any number of other instances, you are going to instill fear.

One of the most important things that government can do is the mediate that fear. FDR knew that when he said in the midst of the great depression, The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

I am ashamed of DU this week. Instead of having reasoned, rational discussions about issues, all I see are thread after thread of chair throwing vitriol on fucking gun rights. It is utterly disgusting what has happened here.

Shame on us all.

Everybody, please, take a breath and use that noodle up there for something other than a hat rack. Think! Consider the position you take in context of the events.

Stop the fucking chair throwings! Stop the bullshit!

Politeness never costs anything. It's free; no charge. Can we work together on this?

I will. That's why I've tried to stay out of the far, far too many gun threads.

I support gun ownership, but I will only state here that somewhere between a pea shooter and a nuclear bomb there is a demarcation to the second amendment. Any discussion with me on the issues would have to presume that fact.

Thanks everybody.


 

villager

(26,001 posts)
76. The NRA has been a successful corporate lobbying group -- some of their shills are in this thread
Tue Jul 24, 2012, 01:26 PM
Jul 2012

...dutifully repeating lies/lines, etc...

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