Times Up for Aziz Ansari

[brettdale]

https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

[David__77]

1. I cant make any conclusion about this man based on this.

...

[BigmanPigman]

2. Me neither.

[Demit]

3. I stopped reading at about the zillionth time she could've stopped things. Or left.

This is a ridiculous story. Is it a parody?

[Kirk Lover]

30. Me too. I'm not sure how a man performs oral on a woman if she doesn't let him

or they are physically restraining her. Worst article...just awful.

[mythology]

40. Unfortunately not every person (male or female) feels empowered in that sort of situation

It's a kind of legal grey area in my mind. He didn't pick up on her cues, but she didn't definitively say no. She can feel violated, and feel like she was clear and he can be unaware and feel like she didn't say no, and both be accurate for the person.

[IluvPitties]

43. There seems to have been no intention of assault n his part.

It's unfortunate, really.

[lunasun]

4. She ordered lobster He ordered white wine She really wanted red Times up!

[BannonsLiver]

15. Thats where were headed

Or are already there. It will become parody at some point.

[lunasun]

18. No already there -it's in the link - and I guess was suppose to add something to the message

[LuckyCharms]

5. Wow, I don't know what to say about this.

I have mixed feelings.

On one hand, the guy is a terrible, awkward and aggressive lover.

On the other hand, the woman performed oral sex on him, had him perform oral sex on her, etc.

I don't know, maybe she should have firmly said STOP when things were becoming uncomfortable for her.

This is really an unfortunate situation, and I honestly don't know how to feel about this. Christ, that whole fingers in the mouth thing made me cringe when I read it.

I think the bottom line for me is, when a person (man or woman) wants something to stop, just say stop, instead of dancing around the issue by using words like "I'm uncomfortable", etc. This seems like some kind of strange push and pull by two people who are acting like children.

[Generic Brad]

7. I interpret "I am uncomfortable" as "Stop"

But that aside - I do not feel I am in a position to pass judgement either of them.

[LuckyCharms]

8. Well, I hear you and somewhat agree, but...

I don't know, the sequence of events here is wigging me out.

[Drahthaardogs]

10. STOP means STOP, but....

You gotta say it.

"I'm uncomfortable" could mean anything from the situation to the climate control in the room.

[LuckyCharms]

11. That's the way I feel.

Also, I don't think things should be this difficult.

Having sex on a first date is risky territory for both parties because you don't know each other and are not familiar with the person's non-verbal cues.

That being said, I think the person initiating the sex should simply ask...Is it alright if I kiss you? Should we take this further?

Then, if the aggressor starts acting like a jerk, simply say, stop this, I changed my mind.

[Drahthaardogs]

12. People are too nice.

If you WANT or don't WANT something you need to say it loud and clear. If someone gets offended it's their problem not yours.

[LuckyCharms]

14. True enough, but when it comes to sex...

I think that if both people are not mature enough to handle first date sex, then it should be avoided.

The man is not blameless here...maybe him shoving his fingers down her throat threw her off, who knows. They're both acting like idiots in the end.

Just a terrible situation here all the way around.

[TexasBushwhacker]

48. Shoving fingers down her throat

Is this a new move I'm not aware of? Aziz sounds like an inept lothario, but not a rapist

[LuckyCharms]

53. I agree. About that finger thing...

It's done, but probably more gently and not down the throat. He's a risky guy if he is doing that with someone he doesn't know well.

[Neema]

57. And ignoring cues goes both ways. He made it abundantly clear what he wanted to have happen after

dinner. Honestly, it doesn't take a genius to see that a guy speeding though dinner and talking about having you back to his place is interested in having sex with you. The brakes could have been applied at any time prior to that.

If a dude said to me "Hey, I've got two tickets to Hamilton, you want to come? It's tonight. How about I stop by your place at 7 to pick you up." From that I would have to assume he does in fact have two tickets to Hamilton and wants to take me.

Maybe I have mixed feelings about it. It's supposed to be great but musicals aren't really my thing, it's short notice and had stuff I wanted to get done, whatever. I express that to him and he persists, saying I'll love it, saying my to-do list can wait, saying the seats are really great, etc. He might even be a little annoying about it. But at some point, if I say yes and meet him at 7 to go to the show, I have to take some responsibility for the fact that I made that decision. If I don't like it, or wish I'd just gotten the to-do list done instead, that's on me.

And even if I decide to tell the guy later "hey, you were really badgering me about going with that show and I think you should know it made me uncomfortable" that's at least a fair way to resolve the situation with him and make him think not being so pushy. But publicly shaming him for it is over the top.

[SMC22307]

60. "Hop up on the counter" was the second clue.

It doesn't take a genius to understand that means trousers around ankles and shagging.

[Lee-Lee]

6. I dont really know what to make of this

He seems like an ass, but no more than so many men out there.

He account is hard to make sense up. She says at one moment she was giving signals she didn’t want anything and the next moment she says she went down on him because he asked her too.... if you didn’t want to, then don’t. Don’t say “I don’t want to” and then moments later do it anyway.

I don’t see any force, I don’t see any restraint, I don’t see any quid pro quo, I just see a horny asshole male and a woman who doesn’t seem to know what she wants to do but isn’t actually forced into any of what she did.

It reads just like a bad ending to a bad date than anything scandalous. He is clearly an ass, she seems by her account to have given at best very mixed signals by doing things like saying she didn’t want to be sexual at one moment and at the next willingly performing sexual acts. She may have felt pressured, but pressure is not force and giving in to pressure is still consent.

[TheBlackAdder]

22. After reading it, his character in Parks & Rec didn't seem to require effort getting into character.

[uponit7771]

9. +1, "Then she went back to Ansari. He asked her if she was okay."

This story is weird ... She never told him no and kept on giving him what he wanted

[BannonsLiver]

13. Babe reads like the onion

I read the whole thing. It’s just a really bad date, of course the website babe.net bills itself as “babe is for girls who don’t give a fuck”.

Apparently that mantra also applies to their news judgement with headlines like “this is what kind of fuckboy he is based on his music” and “Period trapping is the only way to find out if you’re in a relationship or not”

[SMC22307]

17. Those girls who don't give a fuck *might* start giving a fuck...

when lawyers make an appearance.

[SMC22307]

16. Why didn't she just walk out? Because he's famous and lives in Taylor Swift's building?

I've walked out in situations where I felt pressured, uncomfortable, unsafe, etc. Common sense, ladies!

Gonna have to agree with Liam Neeson -- seems like a witch hunt, or at least this particular "she said" seems like a witch hunt.

[SharonClark]

19. This account makes me more sympathetic toward Ansari than it does the woman.

She dates people because they are celebraties. She shares so much information that proves she was coherent and aware of her opportunies to stop it. She then declares she hates men. What a train wreck.

[JI7]

20. I wonder if she wanted to be more of a celeb girlfriend

Than a one night stand thing.

Very badly written article on a questionable site .

[stevenleser]

21. His behavior was deplorable. I dont think its sexual assault but he certainly

Went way too close to the line.

I don’t think it should affect his career but he needs a crap ton of self reflection and behavior modification

[cwydro]

23. Non verbal cues?

Why didn’t she say “take your hands off me” and leave?

[LuckyCharms]

27. Zactly. n/t

[janterry]

52. Yup

ITA

[phleshdef]

24. This is an insult to "Me too" / "Times up"

This is obviously someone looking for their 15 minutes and has no business being associated with actual sexual assault victims. And you insult those actual victims by posting this trash here.

[nini]

26. Exactly what I thought

[nini]

25. I think I lost IQ points reading that

Non verbal messages? Bark at the guy and get up and leave. That's the best way to get a clear message across. Don't play games if you feel you are in a bad situation.

[nolabear]

28. This strikes me as the verbal equivalent of posting someones nude photos.

I am totallly undecided about whether she protested or gave mixed signals or he was insensitive it clumsy or what. But the extended and repetitive detail reads like revenge porn. There’s an ick factor in writing in so much detail about someone without their consent too.

[highplainsdem]

34. I agree that this seems like revenge porn.

[mythology]

29. This is why you get affirmative consent, especially with somebody you don't know

[Drahthaardogs]

58. If a guy points at his penis

And you go down on them, seems pretty affirmative to me.

[tammywammy]

59. Especially when you perform oral on them twice.... n/t

[Luciferous]

31. So she didn't tell him no or stop or try to leave- sounds like a bad date more than an assault.

[sunonmars]

32. The whole thing sounds like weird bullcrap.

[Tipperary]

36. I agree. Sounds like utter nonsense to me.

[highplainsdem]

33. She told him "You guys are all the same" and told a friend, "I hate men."

Okay.

I read through all of that, and from her own description it was clear there were dozens of times when she could and should have walked out if she really felt uncomfortable and violated.

In fact, her comments about "you guys" and hating men left me wondering if she'd done this before, gone into sexual situations that she wasn't entirely comfortable with but didn't clearly object to -- let alone walk (or run) away from -- only to complain later.

I can believe what Ansari wrote about having misread her.

[IluvPitties]

35. I am sorry, but..

I am not sure this is what #metoo is about. We gotta be careful...

[David__77]

37. I think this story demonstrates an amazingly irresponsible perspective.

“It was white (wine)”... “I didn’t get to choose and I prefer red, but it was white wine.”

...


“The move he kept doing was taking his two fingers in a V-shape and putting them in my mouth, in my throat to wet his fingers, because the moment he’d stick his fingers in my throat he’d go straight for my vagina and try to finger me.”

“He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times.” “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”

“It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game.”

“Most of my discomfort was expressed in me pulling away and mumbling. I know that my hand stopped moving at some points.” “I stopped moving my lips and turned cold.”

...

“He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment because I told him I was uncomfortable.”

...

“I didn’t leave because I think I was stunned and shocked."

[Oneironaut]

38. Reminder: Anyone can claim anything on the internet.

[mercuryblues]

39. What gets me is

people are comparing themselves to the female in this situation and what they would do. Based on that assumption condemn the woman.

What she was getting at is her feelings and wants were never a consideration from the start. He on the other hand, because of his status, has not had a need and/or desire to read non-verbalized cues.

Women are raised to be pleasers and not be rude. As an example in school a girl will tell on a boy pulling her bra snap and she will be told "oh, he's just joking" Pulling hair means he likes you etc. Give uncle so and so a kiss, let him know you love him. Even though uncle so and so grabbed your ass the last time you saw him. IOW women are conditioned to not make waves.

She needs to learn how to vocalize her no and not expect that men can read her cues.

[Demit]

41. Nobody taught me that I had to down on somebody to be polite.

[mercuryblues]

44. the

the point








your head.


Not everyone was raised just like you. And besides that is not what I said. Females are conditioned, starting at a young age that their boundaries are not to be respected. Not to make waves.

Do I think if she was more aggressive with her NO, he would have stopped? Probably. I have no reason to think otherwise. She needs to learn how to be more vocal and he needs to learn social cues.

[IluvPitties]

42. I don't condemn her

But I don't think this situation classifies as assault. It's more like dating a jerk and not expressing your boundaries openly.

[TexasBushwhacker]

50. And considering she ignored her date at the party

to pursue Anzari like a groupie and then went to his apartment on their first date, I'm not surprised that he thought he had a green light. It's up to her to set her own boundaries.

He was a cad. She was excited to date a celebrity and was disappointed to find out that he was like other men instead of the fantasy she created.

[Skittles]

46. sounds like she really had trouble articulating what her feelings and wants were

which, combined with a guy who sounds like he never sexually matured past his teenage years, was a real disaster

[WhiskeyGrinder]

45. It doesn't have to be assault for it to serve as an example that men don't listen to women

and feel entitled to their bodies.

[IluvPitties]

47. All of us men feel that way?

[TexasBushwhacker]

49. Personally, I don't let a guy go down on me

if I'm not willing to do the same.

[PoliticAverse]

51. Ansari has responded...

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault_us_5a5c23cde4b03c418966f094?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

[PoorMonger]

54. Here are my feelings on it.

A like Aziz’s comedy - but I you won’t see me defend this. There are several reasons. First is that she knocked his hand away from her crotch multiple times. Whether a woman says no verbally or not you can’t miss that ‘signal’ it means stop it. It means no. One time , two times , three times or five.

Dudes are always saying how they rely on a girl’s signals but that’s just a cheap excuse. If you think you are ‘reading’ her right then there should be no issue asking directly if this is going where you think it’s going. In this case he repeatedly said ‘ where do you want me to fuck you’ and she said maybe next time. He kept pushing and she eventually said that she’d rather not hate him. He stopped momentarily and started up again with some more aggressive play and he said something shitty like ‘ doesn’t look like you hate me’ he got those explicit verbal cues and thought he’d just try again in minutes...

Also the defense that awkward oral sex has occured doesn’t mean he was free to do whatever. That smacks of the worst kind of entitlement. Foreplay doesn’t always lead to the more physical intercourse and either can feel like it’s gone far enough and want it to end.

Let us also not neglect why a woman in this spot might shut down and be less than forceful with her verball commands etc. It’s entirely possible she fears a violent outburst if she gets aggressive. She’s alone with a man in his apartment and he’s already shown aggressive behavior continuing to go for her privates and shove fingers down her throat. Is it unreasonable for her to worry he might just go that extra step and hit her or worse if she makes more of an effort? Not unreadable to me , and that’s not even taking into account this particular man’s money and power.

Finally, I’ll say this. Defenders of guys in these stories or attackers of women often seem to think it’s so easy go from consent to assault because they allow precieved consent to stand in for the real thing. There is no such thing as implied sexual consent. Period. What is actually easy is asking straight out for consent before doing something wrong. People seem to think sometimes that this is lame or will ‘ kill the moment’ but put yourself in the other persons shoes, wouldn’t you rather kill the moment by being decent than traumatize someone?

[PoorMonger]

56. And no , Im not saying what he did was assult.

Though his apparent playbook is absolutely indicative of the problem in people who end up committing assult. It’s a very clear example of many of the factors in what we would call ‘rape culture’ and the apparent acceptance of it or dismissal of the woman in the case show just how prevalent the thinking is in discussions around sexual conduct and that’s a big factor in how it gets entrenched and ignored in society for so long.

[Neema]

55. Okay, I'm proud feminist but I also think that part being a

feminist means it's important to take SOME modicum responsibility for your decisions. This man took her on a date and made it pretty clear that he wanted to take her back to his place to have sex with her. He does not have power over her career, nor does he seem intimidating physically in a way where she might feel overly pressured to comply. Yet she went back to his place with him. Should he have have stopped badgering her? Yes. Should she have left or, perhaps better yet, not gone over there in the first place? Also, yes.

She strikes me as someone who maybe wasn't sure if she was into having sex with him or not. Which is valid. It's certainly okay to be unsure, to change your mind. It's also perfectly valid to call him out privately and say, hey, I wasn't totally sure what I wanted to have happen last night but I also think you were a little too persistent and should have stopped when you saw I was uncomfortable.

But to publicly and anonymously accuse him of sexual assault in a way that puts him on par with serial predators in the entertainment industry seems like a very outsized reaction to what happened that night. She accuses him of ignoring her non-verbal cues but she clearly ignored his very overt cues of what he wanted to do with her after dinner. He doesn't seem like a guy who, if she'd said "you're great but I'm not ready to go this fast" or "I think I'm going to head home instead, thanks" would have barred her from leaving or been threatening. Of course I could be wrong there, but nothing in her account gave me that impression.