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This message was self-deleted by its author (Ken Burch) on Mon Jan 15, 2018, 10:38 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.
shraby
(21,946 posts)shows and basically say the same thing, one right after another.
dubya himself called it catapulting the propaganda.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)But it gets used to try and discredit folks on DU simply because they might say something that by chance echoes some else's argument-and, at times, to imply that there's some sort of a plot to get people to post progressive arguments that(so the implication goes) those people would never post without being duped into it.
dsc
(52,155 posts)but it does seem odd when critics use the exact same words, and/or cite the exact same obscure incidents to justify their critique.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)to be the most concise way to make a point, or because a particular incident seems especially telling.
Squinch
(50,941 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)But hardly anyone arguing for changes in this party in posts on this site is doing so as part of a GOP plot. That party isn't capable of training people to pretend to be progressive activists, for Goddess(es)' sakes.
Squinch
(50,941 posts)talking point?
Because if not, really? Where the hell have you been for the past year?
Squinch
(50,941 posts)betsuni
(25,456 posts)Squinch
(50,941 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)You know perfectly well I'm not a pretend progressive. I've been posting on this board for thirteen years now and I post here because I post here.
I'm not part of anybody's conspiracy.
I used "strawperson" and "Goddesses" because I personally chose to use them...they were meant to be alternatives to gender-specific phrases and nothing else.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)n/t.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)But I'll try something else.
Thanks for the feedback.
Squinch
(50,941 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)I've sometimes been a bit to the left of your comfort level, but I'm a loyal Dem and have never done this party any harm.
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)Frank Luntz was the person that originated Republican talking points.
he had focus groups at the ready and convened them on almost all major issues. Based on the results, he'd send Talking Points to Republican politicians to use and repeat on the air. I think it also went to Republican media personalities like Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity, etc. It's been extremely effective in shaping the news coverage of most major issues.
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)a PBS Round Table discussing the use of special crafted phrases and hot button wording.
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,489 posts)there is a right-wing system of think tanks feeding their political network with talking point memos each day, and I specifically recall Heritage Foundation and AEI mentioned as having the boiler rooms doing that work. One of Bush's people admitted that they received the memos (I think by email) every day, and they were also sent to Repug CongressCritters and key editors at Faux News, Limbaugh, etc.
This allows their leadership and the right-wing machine to keep all the rubes (including the Repug press) singing off the same page, and that's why we hear the same arguments repeated over and over, almost verbatim. That seems to apply both to policy ideas and to attack strategies against Democrats.
They realized they would have to do that because after all the populist know-nothing Repugs that were elected during the Nixon and Reagan revolts, those guys would be saying off-the-cuff bullshit to the press and the party would look like a train wreck.
Not sure whose bright idea this was, but it must have came about via some summit meetings between some very powerful people, probably going back to the Nixon years and the thinking of Lee Atwater. In reality, it has become the glue that holds the "vast right-wing conspiracy" together mentioned in the 90s by Bill Clinton.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)I was referring to the practice here of accusing people calling for the party to take more progressive stances are simply mouthing "talking points" devised by some sort of diabolical anti-Dem conspiracy.
I hope you would agree that nobody here deserves to be accused of repeating "talking points" simply because they things they say are a bit to the left of some people's "comfort zones".
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,489 posts)Sorry, but when I hear that phrase, I always think of the Repug system of passing talking points around in their big bullshit bubble, LOL. I would hope that DU is and always will be a forum open to all ideas friendly to Democrats across the spectrum.
One big problem in our society today is the "us vs them" and defensive posture mindset that has become pervasive in so many everyday folks. The right-wing media complex has done this horrible thing to us. When in this mode, one has to compartmentalize everyone into sub-groups and everyone has to wear a damned label, LOL.
What we need is more old-fashioned "ladies and gentlemen" open-minded debate. Any idea - good or bad - is just that and nothing else, and no one owns any idea or thought.
One of my personal hang-ups is that I struggle when there's a discussion that's completely one-sided. I have an irresistible habit of tossing an opposing view (or two) into the ring to make it interesting. That does not mean that I support that view, it's just that I feel a discussion should include a wide range of thinking to be meaningful. That process does piss some folks off, though.
July
(4,750 posts)I thought it was Hillary Clinton who came up with "vast right-wing conspiracy."
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,489 posts)Years ago, some sources wrongly attributed it to Bill, although it was discussed in some interviews with him. Apparently, it arose from the results of a 1995 research paper on the multiple conspiracies surrounding the Clintons, and then Hillary used it first in an interview.
I found this statement interesting from the Wiki:
(snip)
It (the paper) described how online conservative media outlets such as The American Spectator spread conspiracy theories about the suicide of Vince Foster, the Whitewater controversy, and other events. According to the memo, these conspiracies spread from conservative think tanks to British tabloids, and then to the mainstream press.
--------
That would suggest that Rupert Murdoch had his fingers in our political process via his tabloids even prior to Faux News coming to air.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)All over FB, many based on lies and people repeated them as nauseum.... even when they didnt know the real issues behind them, theyd just repeat that crap.
The GOP and Russia got lefties to do their dirty work for them. Still do.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It gets used against people who say we're too close to corporations, that we haven't got a positive program, that we don't talk about class or things like that...and it's used to imply that people saying those things are following some sort of a script written by enemies of the party or with the intent of damaging the party.
It's like saying anybody who says those things is either a dupe or part of a plot-that no one could possible mean them sincerely or be working out of personal conviction or honorable intent.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)That actually does sound scripted- few voters who care are that ignorant.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And I've seen decades of Democratic campaigning where the theme wasn't (as it should have been) what we would do and whydoing that was a good thing but(Obama's campaigns excepted) a focus on the need to stop the other party. "Stop ____" campaigns don't work.
We've stood for good things but acted like we had to hide those good things when running against the GOP.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Stop it!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)This is getting ridiculous.
Squinch
(50,941 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)I post what I post in the intent of helping the party be better.
And I've been here since 2003.
It's not as though the ONLY way to fight the Right is to tell the Left to shut up.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Do you think nobody in this party agrees with me about that?
I post here for the same reason anybody else does...simply to share ideas or comment on other people's ideas.
It's never been about ego, and I don't get any material or personal rewards for it.
What have you got to hold against me, anyway?
I haven't done any harm and it's not my fault that we got the head of state that we've got.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)It reminds me of the time that someone around here got upset because I used the waving smilie at the end of my posts. At the time, that person (I forget who) said that the waving smilie was offensive and dismissive, and they were insulted by it. Weird, huh?
When you defend your arguments with "well, others feel the same way" ... that tells me you're coming-in from a position of weakness (if that's the BEST defense you can come up with to explain, justify or validate your ideas.)
It reminds me of Homer's reply to Marge when she says:
Marge: "Welcome Home, Homie! How was work?"
Homer: "And just WHAT do you mean by that? I wasn't at Moe's if that's what you're thinking!"
Oh, Homer! I love that show! He cracks me up every time!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)This is why you come across as so untrustworthy. You make tons of vague claims about other people but in actuality youre just spewing your own repetitive and negative opinions about Dems again and again. The reason people think they sound scripted is... they sound scripted. You even admit youre testingout and refining wording here. LOL - working on your act. Guess what/ its mkt going well.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Rather than criticize the people who are actually doing it.
Not just campaigning. If you feel you have so much to contribute that you should be one of the leaders, since those in that position now are "too close to the corporations" or "don't have a positive program" or "don't talk about class or things like that" the solution is that you do it and rise in the party. They are not going to read DU posts and realize the error of their ways. They think they need to do the things they do - that is why they do them.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)I'm just one person presenting ideas, as you are.
And I am active on issues in my own community, so I don't need to be lectured on involvement(I've also returned to college in my late fifties to be more prepared to be part of the change.
Do you think only leaders have the right to suggest things?
If that's how this country worked, we'd still have an absolute ban on same-sex marriage. We'd still be in Vietnam. We'd still have Jim Crow or even still have slavery. We never would have had unions.
You shouldn't have to be in the leadership of a hierarchy to have ideas.
The leadership, in any group, are pretty much always about saying "no" to ideas and have to be forced to hear them.
In the LGBTQ rights movement, your leaders had to be forced to push for marriage equality, for example.
And I'm not criticizing people. My comments are only about ideas. It's not personal attack to point out when ideas don't work.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)So it boils down to a post about posters. No running from that one.
Is this the latest talking point?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It's an implication that people calling for change in this party are either being duped by an anti-Dem conspiracy or are trying to damage the party. Neither of those things are true.
It is simply people of good will saying things on their own. Why is that so hard to accept?
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)"It's a post about a dynamic, not about individuals."
That's not what you said. Great time to highlight this. Not all talking points are created equal. Sometimes they need to be sculpted or updated along the way, as you just did.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Sometimes I repeat phrases. So what? People just do that at times, especially if they're writing in a hurry.
I doubt every post you make is complete devoid of any connection to the way you've phrased anything before that.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... and who find subtle backhanded ways to do so themselves. It's all claptrap and they repeat it continuously with all the depth and understanding of a parrot.
You know, though... as frustrating as it can be, I'm glad to see that others are seeing the same thing that I do, and that others are finding ways to call it out and label it for what it actually is.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)This was already explained to you in another thread. Why start a new thread to continue an ongoing bickerfest? Besides, it looks like you already lost that little side argument anyway... so what good purpose does it serve to resurrect it here?
We're smarter than you think we are. I should let you know that people who play this "who me" and "I don't understand" game, will always lose. All I'm trying to say is that people are fed up with the backhanded attacks and smears on Democrats.
Leith
(7,808 posts)was when Linda Tripp wrote down (with help) arguments that she wanted to use to turn that situation into one that rethugs would profit by.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It was a known phrase for me by the end of elementary school or early middle school.
It's first known use was early 1900's.
betsuni
(25,456 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)then it seems like it might be that. Also if the arguments are fallacious. Republicans especially, think they came up with some great argument. They all repeat it. But it is not such a great argument and you can see through it immediately.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)But that doesn't apply to those posting in support of progressive change within the Democratic Party. It's not "anti-Democratic" simply to suggest that the party change in some ways.