After interviews, the penalty the fans are maddest about is

[Are_grits_groceries]

the deletion of JoePa's wins.

(These interviews were conducted at a baseball game in Unhappy Valley)

Boo-freaking-hoo!

[DrDan]

1. that says a lot when the issue was not the $60M

that cannot come from other sports
it is the yearly gross from football - so it has to come from other University sources
that seems to me to be academics

or I suppose a few well-placed contributors could foot the bill

my guess - academics

[Are_grits_groceries]

2. Nope

It's coming from a reserve athletic fund. The NCAA stipulated that it couldn't be drawn from some other university funds. They were pointed about academics not being cut.
Well-placed contributors will cushion this as much as they can.

[DrDan]

3. I thought it could not impact other sports - wouldn't taking it from the reserve fund do that?

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. Difference between the slush fund and direct budget allocations

They can't take it from women's volleyball; they can take it from the "athletics reserve."

By the way, anyone who thinks Beaver Stadium won't be sold out jam packed for every home game of the season is delusional. Do people imagine there will be a half-empty stadium, and that PSU won't be making massive receipts every Saturday? That alumni and students will stop buying licensed products?

There will still be massive amounts of money coming in.

[sofa king]

9. Of course, we've seen that all before.

When the Cobell v. (Sec. of Interior) decision came down, the Bush Administration was also instructed not to take the money owed to tribes from Bureau of Indian Affairs programs.

So instead, the following year the Bush Administration sent in a budget request that reduced funding to all offices and Departments that deal with Indians. Offices and Departments aren't "programs," you see. They just put programs into effect.

And thus, in one quick step the Republicans found a way to make the Indians pay for a 140 year old Republican slush fund created out of money held in trust for Indians that was apparently used for everything from stealing the Hayes-Tilden election to building the World Trade Center to bailing out Chrysler.

They always make the victims pay for the damage in the end. In this case, the victims include the students of Penn State, and as I have witnessed firsthand elsewhere, undergraduates are always the first people targeted to pay the damage for past indiscretions. So yeah, I won't be surprised at all to see the academic budget frozen or reduced while the "athletic fund" from which the fine is paid is increased. I won't be surprised to see less lucrative sports discontinued, reduced to informal clubs, or redirected from the equivalent Division Ia tier.

You should be able to measure the results in a year or two, when the US News list of best colleges and U.s show that Penn State has dropped in their rankings.

Bean counters don't have to do it this way, but they usually do, for reasons I don't dare try to guess. If you don't believe me, just bookmark this thread, come back in a year, and see if it didn't go down largely as I've described above.

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. I don't know about that

And there's way too much heat and light on PSU for it to pay this out of academics. In particular, the faculty itself is up in arms about the whole matter, and has been since October. You can bet that any attempt to cut any program will now be immediately interpreted as a diversion of academic funds to an athletic slush fund for the purpose of paying off this and other penalties, and will be stopped in its tracks. Indeed, PSU has been cutting vigorously over the last several years in response to the Corbett budgets, hacking off a fine MFA program from the English department, and getting rid of a Science, Technology, and Society program. Faculty and deans will now use this as leverage to oppose further academic cuts.

That said, the point is rather that PSU will not have particular problems paying this fine. This fine is 1 year of net football receipts. They're still going to make those, more or less. They won't have to divert funds from other programs, because those are going to keep flowing in. The idea that the football money will dry up at PSU as a result of the penalties is just silly. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised to see a net increase THIS YEAR.

[CTyankee]

17. I think you are right. That is exactly what will happen.

If I were a kid who will be looking at colleges this year, I would just cross Penn State off the list or not consider it in the first place. My granddaughter will be looking/applying to colleges next spring. If Penn State were in her sights because of her proposed major, I would advise her against that consideration. Thankfully, we won't have that issue to contend with...

[Chan790]

28. PSU is going to drop anyways in USN&WR rankings.

A portion of that score is university prestige which is based entirely on how the public feels about the school; mind you, not how they feel about the academic programs or how they feel about the campus or the value of a degree...how they feel about the school.

Between the scandal and the sanctions against the football program, they're going to lose prestige points sufficient to drop in the rankings, especially when you consider that the separation between schools in the lower-first and second tier are usually tenths of points.

[Are_grits_groceries]

7. I don't know what exact fund it is, but

it won't impact the other sports. Who knows what the financial arrangements are?

PSU was given an exemption by the state legislature from transparency laws. People could be up to anything and probably were. There needs to be a forensic audit.

[Blue_Tires]

33. They can make up the $60 mil faster than you think...

[datasuspect]

4. they should dismantle/close the football program

sell all assets and use the funds to help child victims of rape.

[LynneSin]

43. Why?

Look, I think Penn State Football program got what it deserved but it does make me sad that the players are being punished because the coaches made poor choices that impacted the lives of defenseless children.

But to dismantle the football program entirely and sell the assets is not helping anyone, if anything it will do serious damage to the economy in Happy Valley. The Penn State Football program generates millions of dollars that go back into the university and helps fund programs & research. It also employs thousands of people who rely on those games to bring in revenue for their businesses. It's also a top notch university too!

The Football program and Penn State will pay for hiding this scandal. And it's not done - we still have the civil lawsuits which will also cost Penn State a very large chunk of change.

But I think the Football program can still do alot of good, maybe not today but in the future. The new coach, Bill O'Brien, has stated that he will work with PSU thru all of this and help rebuild the program. And that program will once again help generate money to do alot of good for Central Pennsylvania.

[Waltons_Mtn]

52. The players are not being punished. The NCAA is allowing them to transfer

with no loss of eligibility. They just need to transfer to different schools. If they choose to stay out of some loyalty to the school, that is of their own choosing. The players being punished are the ones who will not get scholarships at the schools the PSU players transfer to. It will be interesting to watch. I doubt any marque players will be signing up for a team that can't go to a bowl game. At least for a couple of years.

I do agree with you that the football program can still do alot of good. I hope it is sooner than later.

[LynneSin]

53. And remember the players who stay with PSU can still be drafted by the NFL

If a player has the skills to make it into the NFL, the NFL won't care about what the coaches and leaders of the school had done.

And honestly, Penn State is one of the few schools that actually do give their football players a good education and usually graduates most of their players.

The team is going to suck probably for the next decade but I think the program will survive and actually become even better!

[datasuspect]

61. good old fashioned punishment

that's why.

[LynneSin]

62. Then you are punishing the wrong people

[datasuspect]

63. fucking children, in my opinion warrants death, so i'm going easy

anyone who supports their football program supports child fucking.

as far as revenue, tough shit. kids come first.

[LynneSin]

64. And Penn State is going to pay for what they did

But there is no need to shut down the football program, just toss out the people that created a culture where the program was put before the safety & welfare of children.

[datasuspect]

65. they can never pay for what they did

[lunatica]

6. They only have JoePa to blame

[joeybee12]

8. Says a lot about the fans...this penalty really only impacts JoePa's legacy...

Doesn't hurt what some are calling innocent bystanders...so, apparently the hero worship is still there and that's pathetic.

[HappyMe]

10. Tough shit.

Anytime I see this story on the news, the fans are wailing and knashing their teeth over Paterno, a statue, the record, money, the hallowed football program....
No wailing and knashing of teeth about the victims, and the fact that their whole system let this happen.

[HughBeaumont]

11. TOO BAD! Children were raped and he lifted not one FINGER to stop it.

Criminal Neglect has consequences.

[1monster]

12. In the end, that is the most meaningless penalty of all. Because the games were won

by the Penn State teams and "retroactively" saying the other teams won is just ridiculous.

NCAA alwyas goes over the top and punishes the worng people. The ones who did the vile acts or covered the same are either facing prison, dead, resigned, retired, or fired. The people who are left at Penn State are collateral victims of Sandusky and "look the other way" club.

This kids who won't get football scholarships and opportunities, the ones who were small children when all this took place are the ones who lose out.

Nice going NCAA. A better deal would have been to sanction those who covered up by banning them from any NCAA invested school. If they work in a sports department of any school, the school could not participate in NCAA covered sports until that person was removed... or something like that.

And how does the NCAA deal with the prosecutor who also looked the other way?

[Are_grits_groceries]

13. The other schools do not

get to add those games to their total wins. Other schools do not get any championships or other awards if they were behind PSU. The wins are vacated and not reassigned.

[1monster]

18. Whatever. It is still meaningless because you can't change the results. You can't undo the

celebrations, etc. because they are already done.

As far as Paterno's record, he's dead. It ain't any skin off his nose any more. And it wasn't Paterno who won the games anyway. It was the guys on the football team.

[frylock]

54. and yet PSU alum, and the paterno family are pissing and moaning about that fact more than anything.

so clearly, stripping away those wins was anything but meaningless.

[Scuba]

16. +1 Our zeal to punish has resulted in innocents being punished along with the guilty.

[jeff47]

20. Paterno and the others were trying to "protect the program"

The way you make this not happen again is to devastate the program. The next coach will realize that silence does not "protect the program".

Your ban would be useless - the people involved are dead or will never be employed by any school again.

[1monster]

25. In other words, the process to get rid of the people involved was already done BEFORE

NCAA decided to punish the innocents who were not involved.

This will not stop anything like it happening again. If Joe Paterno or any of the others involved in the "look the other way club" had turned Sandusky in, then the program would not have been penalized. They were not protecting Penn State Football, they were protecting a criminal friend and coworker and perhaps they just didn't want to get involved.

It could happen again, anywhere, and have nothing to do with college football programs, however big or small that college football program or other entity might be.

The NCAA sanctions are not to prevent such a thing happening again. It is an effort on their part to seem revelent and effective.

I've no axe to grind here. I don't follow sports, pro or college. It bores me. But the NCAA always seems to come in after everything is done and all the perps are gone to pile crap on those who are trying to clean up the mess made by others.

[frylock]

56. so is the punishment meaningless, or are innocent people being punished..

try and make up your mind on this.

[1monster]

67. The part that is meaningless is that mentioned as the most stinging in the OP...

The part where all the wins from 1998 or whenever to the present are vacated. You can't undo what was done. It's sort of like Mitt Romney "retroactively" retiring from Bain Capital.

Wiping the record will not change what was; it just won't be recorded any more.

The innocents who are being punished are the current and future students who won't be able to get the scholarships, etc. The students should not be made to pay for the administration's and coaching staff's abrogation of their responsiblities.

I think I was quite clear originally, but I guess it gave you a bit of a thrill to be snarky.

[jeff47]

71. Actually, it removes Paterno from the record books.

So it's not meaningless at all.

Or were you operating under the delusion that someone who graduated in 2002 is now going to think they never won a football game?

It's about destroying Paterno's record, not the players in those games. As someone who played football, I can assure you we have very little memory of our win-loss record. We remember what we did during the game, not what the scoreboards said at the end.

[jeff47]

70. There are two targets of any punishment

1) The people who actually did wrong.
2) Other people who may consider doing wrong in the future.

This punishment is much more about group 2 than group 1.

If Joe Paterno or any of the others involved in the "look the other way club" had turned Sandusky in, then the program would not have been penalized.

Not entirely true. The program would have been damaged in that they would lose fans, donations and support. However, it would have been fairly quick to recover.

That's the point of the NCAA's punishment - the next program that discovers it has a pedophile will look at the two options and decide that turning the guy in is far less damaging than covering it up.

[CANDO]

73. Not just the NCAA, but many posters here.

They hide behind the righteous rage and don't give a shit that the people responsible are not there now. Just so they can sit in judgement and feel all pious. In their eyes, if you so much as go see a game you are guilty and need punished. I say they can bite my ass and go to hell. The guilty are and should pay. Leave the rest of us alone. Go bully someone else with your pious crusade. It's not really about the children for them now. They just enjoy beating up on others whilst hiding behind their cloak of faux piety.

[obamanut2012]

38. No one is being stopped from playing football

Not even at Penn State.

Good God.

[1monster]

49. And where did I say that?

Talk about "Good God!"

[LynneSin]

47. Vacating the wins, to me, was punishment to the fans who defended Paterno.

To me, Paterno coached way longer than he should have. He was 89 years old and honestly, I think he should have stepped down about 5-10 years earlier. But I think in the end Joe wanted to reach that goal of winningest coach in Division I NCAA football so he stuck with it. He knew that he could get 8-10 wins a year he would get the goal.

And obtaining that goal put Paterno in a class by himself. Here's a football program that had the same guy coaching for them for almost 50 years and usually to successful seasons. It was a real pride to Penn State fans to brag about Joe Paterno.

So you are right - vacating those wins does absolutely nothing for the teams that played against Penn State. It doesn't change season rankings or bowl trips of past. But what it does, which is a major impact, is pop the big bubble that is the ego of Penn State Football fans.

To me, Vacating those wins was punishment for all the fans that defended Joe Paterno even after they found out he was part of the scandal hiding the fact that children were molested by Jerry Sandusky

[1monster]

68. You could be right, but since when does the NCAA hold dominion over the fans' opinions?

Frankly, I think Paterno deserves a fair trial (with a change of venue, of course, so that he isn't aquitted as a matter of course by his fans) before a jury of his peers. But he's dead, so that won't happen.

[NCTraveler]

57. Removing his name from the record books is a good and significant thing in my opinion. nt.

[truebrit71]

14. Well as long as they're all focused on the important issue in all of this...

"Yeah he covered up for a child rapist for years, but look at the number of wins he had!!"

[Ganja Ninja]

19. If I was one of the victims I would be trying to add the NCAA to my lawsuit.

They are taking $60 million in potential settlement money away from the university. The NCAA is not a victim and that money should be available as potential compensation not used to pad the coffers of the NCAA or defend them from a lawsuit.

[obamanut2012]

39. What would you sue teh NCAA for???

They aren't taking any money away from anyone. They are sanctioning PSU's football program, which is their job and role, and the money is not going to the NCAA.

Any civil lawsuits, and there will be many, will be against PSU itself, and various individuals.

[Sancho]

21. Don't fool yourself, college administrations are involved to the top...

I'm sure that Paterno would have risk being fired if he had gone public. He knew that too. I suspect that behind closed doors Paterno was told by the President and AD that they would handle it and he should be quiet or else start looking for a job. And honestly, to an older generation public coverup of embarrassment was expected. That's not a excuse. He should have reported anything he knew even if it pissed off the administration.

I worked on a college campus over 30 years ago. A freshman coed reported to me that she had been raped. I referred her to counseling and reported it to police. The administration went apeshit that I had not gone to the campus police - literally so that they could cover it up! That's the only time I ever got to meet the VP - to get chewed out for reporting a crime!

Athletics is king. I was a graduate student at UGA when Hershel was playing. Do you remember the President and Vice President were fired for changing grades to keep football players eligible? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Trotter

Personally, I think there should be criminal penalties for coverups of crimes by administrators, but they likely will walk.

[MadrasT]

23. Yes, exactly

Personally, I think there should be criminal penalties for coverups of crimes by administrators, but they likely will walk.

[1monster]

26. Agree with you

Personally, I think there should be criminal penalties for coverups of crimes by administrators, but they likely will walk.

[Are_grits_groceries]

30. Are you kidding?

Paterno told them what to do. They were going to the authorities until they 'talked to Joe.'

In another instance, when some of his players were involved in a brawl, he told them not to cooperate with the VP looking into it. She got threats and it was so bad she quit. JoePa denigrated her in a radio interview.

When the Spanier and the AD went to talk to him about retiring, he laughed at them and told them to go away.

Don't kid yourself. Paterno was the power at PSU. If he wanted something, he got it. In addition, he knew everything that was going on. He became a control freak. It's laughable when he claimed to be just a peon.

Joe called the shots especially when it came to football.

[Sancho]

69. maybe so at PSU...the president and AD should have had final authority...

emails give us a clue, but we don't know what was said behind closed doors. Maybe Joe talked them out of going to authorities, but he knew it would cost him his job back in 98 if it came out. I think that they were all complicit in the coverup.

[Chan790]

31. I'm glad you said this...

I worked in housing at a university breifly and stories like yours are the reason the Clery Act was passed. I've heard plenty such tales.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clery_Act

[obamanut2012]

40. There will be - the NCAA isn't a law enforcement agency, nor teh courts

They are a sports governing body.

[LiberalFighter]

46. It is really wrong for campus "police" to be the people to report crimes.

If it is a real crime it should be reported to real police. Campus police are no different from private security used by businesses. They don't have legal authority to arrest anyone.

[petronius]

48. Actually, many if not most campus police departments are regular

police departments, with the same powers and jurisdictions as other departments in the state - I'd bet dollars to donuts that's the case at a big school like Penn State. And, they have the same potential virtues and warts as any other department...

[LiberalFighter]

50. They need to lose some of those powers.

[petronius]

51. I'd say the same about some municipal PDs - there are horrible

examples in every category.

But a moderate to large residential campus is a lot like a small town, with a distinct population, infrastructure, open spaces, quasi-commercial districts, etc. It makes a lot of sense to me that they should have a fully-accredited and properly trained professional police department, rather than security guards relying on a later response from an outside LE entity. And, I think they should be subject to strict regulation and citizen review (which I'd also say about other PDs)...

[MrMickeysMom]

22. Yeah... because winning is everything...

crying crocodile tears with you on that one.

Now, the university president is also crying that he was "misled"... I really think Penn State will have to be dropped to #12 and learn how to recruit and run a football program all over again.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

24. Nitwits....

Seriously, the worst damage is the bowl ban, the loss of scholarships, and the waiver of transfer rules.

The current star players and Blue Chip recruits are free to leave the university TODAY and play somewhere else tomorrow. And with the reduced scholarships, Penn State will basically be playing under the Division II rules while trying to compete in the Big Ten.

For those of you who wanted the Death Penalty, you might get something even better: Six or Seven years of Penn State getting its ass beaten up and down the Big Ten. Six or Seven years of being pulverized by the likes of Nebraska, Ohio State, Michigan and Wisconsin. Six or Seven years of losing to Indiana, Minnesota and Northwestern.

Penn State just became "The Little Sisters of the Poor" and so while no program at all might be satisfying, years of watching Penn State be a doormat AND KNOWING WHY just might be more entertaining.

[obamanut2012]

41. I think this is worse than the death penalty

And, I am glad about it, because I consider it better justice. It may also force a bit of humility into some of the Happy Valley folks.

[hifiguy]

45. Indeed. SMU was a doormat for decades

after they got the death penalty, and this is in some ways even worse. Penn State is going to be the "get well" stop on the Big Ten schedule for teams like my perpertually downtrodden Gophers. That program is justifiably screwn for 10-15 years minimum.

[csziggy]

27. Not being a football fan I'm maddest that the crown now goes to Bowden

Bobby Bowden former head coach of Florida State University, right wing piece of crap who never deserved any honors and who is still revered about as much as Joe Paterno here in Tallahassee.

The only consolation I have is that Bowden's top winning honors will always have a footnote that the reason he got to top is that Joe Paterno was brought down in disgrace.

[hifiguy]

29. That was in some ways the most satisfying part

of the penalties/sentence. It took away the old fraud's greatest accomplishment.

[Sheepshank]

32. I wonder if they feel it's a punishment on the players ?

I do belive that removing his recods is fine, but unsure how this affected the records of the players.

With all of the rest of the punishment meted out to Penn State, sll of this really hurts so much of the student body, the intrinsic (and possibly employable) value of their degrees etc.

I actually wish that the punishment could have been confined to the actual persons/perpetrators involved. There was plenty of people that could be carrying the responsibility. Corporations are NOT people. People, and their decisions to cover up, and permit actions are at the heart of all of this.

[HereSince1628]

34. I didn't understand it until a DUer stated that it takes Paterno's name out of the record book

as most winning college coach.

IMO posthumous punishment is a bit strange, but I appreciate how it works against Paterno.

I also understand that people who admired Paterno's winning record would not like this.

[cbdo2007]

35. Well, it is kind of stupid to rewrite history...

As much as I hate Paterno after this whole thing, the team and him went out there and won the football games.

I think they should have more civil/criminal punishments against those people who were actively involved rather than punish all of the students and players who didn't even know this was going on.

This is what happens nowadays. Just like a big bank that screws thousands of families out of $10,000,000,000. They will get fined a small portion of that amount, the families will recover a small portion of the amount they lost, and the executives won't go to jail or have to pay out of pocket.

The victims here should sue the Paterno family for every last dime he left behind, and the president of the school should go to jail....but they did legitimately get those wins.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

36. i disagree that he 'legitimately' got those wins

the moment he turned his back on those kids...he lost legitimacy. if he had simply come out, been a decent human being, and done the simplest thing in the world in reporting it and NOT hiding it, he would have been a hero in college football today. but as it stands, he was a person who was more concerned with image than right.

now, you can argue crap like this goes on all the time in college sports and you might have a point...but this bastard enabled a monster...for 14+ years. he hurt those he was supposed to protect...he had no legitimacy at all.

sP

[lapislzi]

37. I have Are Grits Groceries to thank

for my better understanding of how this went down. Paterno was a total megalomaniac, a type rarely seen (Robert Moses comes to mind). He thought he and his program were above the law, and that he could control all possible outcomes. He gave not a rat fuck for those children.

His hubris blinded him and de-legitimized him and all his works.

[obamanut2012]

42. Then why strip Olympic medals and Tour wins???

[cbdo2007]

44. I don't think they would strip Olympic medals from someone who's coach didn't report a child rape.

Do you think they would?? Or are you refencing, why do they strip olympic medals and tour wins for doping and cheating by the athletes??

I guess you could argue that they had an unfair advantage by not reporting Sandusky, in that they wanted to take advantage of his coaching skills, and they would hae had an inferior coach if they had replaced him?? If that's the case, they should go back and take away all wins during Sandusky's time there after the rapes, not just the past few years.

[Liberal_in_LA]

55. I couldn't imagine how LA would react if something like this happened to John Wooden's legacy

people love their sports coaches.

[frylock]

58. paterno isn't fit to carry john wooden's jock

[Liberal_in_LA]

59. now that's an image! But you are right - I can't imagine John Wooden ignoring child rape

[malthaussen]

60. Seems to me, taking away those wins acknowledges that football is super-important

I think it is a strange penalty to attach, but the man's dead, not much that can be done to him.

I think it would be a mistake, though, to bury him and his legacy like Stalin editing photographs of Kremlin meetings with guys he later liquidated. Mr Paterno should not be forgotten: he should be held up as a shining example of the failure of moral courage and the wrong way to deal with criminal assault.

Penn State should be forced to introduce a course in "Institutional Failure and the Moral Bankruptcy of the Cover-Your-Ass Strategy," and I'd be happy to teach it. In fact, I think all of our institutions of higher learning should be compelled to teach such a course.

There's a tendency in this disgrace to concentrate on the individuals, as though their conduct were aberrational and not a reflection of a systemic failure in our culture's glorification of the institution. I have no idea if Mr Paterno was a rotten megalomaniacal tyrant or not, and don't really much care, since I suspect that just about any person who was capable of reaching the position he did would have acted in the same way under the circumstances. If we push the idea that Mr Paterno and the gutless administrators of PSU were just an example of rotten apples in the barrel, then we can ignore the barrel and continue business as usual until the next scandal comes down the pike. Frankly, I'm quite certain that is exactly what is going to happen.

-- Mal

[dembotoz]

66. roger maris lives

back in the day
his home run record was blemished by a commissioner who was upset he had a couple more games than the sacred babe ruth.
so he had an asterisk by his record

paterno love him or hate him won x number of games

everyone know he won them

to say he did not win them is just more ncaa bullshit

shit they make the olympic committee seem fair...

[radicalliberal]

72. Pity any rape victim ...

... who "gets in the way" of a high-school or college football program.