Don't know who is winning the messaging war but I find the suggestion here we're losing disturbing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Carry on...

[Prue]

1. Wrong Message

My struggle with the Democrats is their inability to frame their messages. Most of the time they are on the right side of the argument but they seem to fall short in getting their message out to everyday Americans.

I attribute their failure to their focus on the policy and not the con.

For example - the message they are using is about DACA. They are trying to appeal to people's sympathies. That's the wrong message because people equate that to political correctness. Their message should be about America's honor in keeping our word and how this Administration and this Republican party has damaged that honor not only domestically but internationally (I mentioned this on another seed).

That message may garner more support because it's about America's reputation and trustworthiness not about the politically correct thing to do.

[MineralMan]

3. Your "struggle with the Democrats?"

Are you not a Democrat?

[Prue]

4. I'm an American first

I'm a registered Independent. I lean left on some issues and right on others. When I said I "struggle with the Democrats" my meaning was that I become frustrated with their inability to learn from past mistakes on how to stand up to the Republicans. It was meant as constructive criticism not a derogatory statement against democrats in general.

[MineralMan]

6. Just as I thought.

So, you've come here to DU to tell us what we should do, then?

Well, all I can say is:

Bye, Felicia!

[Prue]

7. This is disappointing

No, my intent was not to lecture but to engage others intellectually on how we can overcome the mess that has moved into the White House.

I'm sorry if my post came off otherwise but I can certainly take a hint that the site is not looking for thoughtful contribution.

My apologies if I've insulted you.

[MineralMan]

10. There are plenty of thoughtful contributions here

from Democrats. This is Democratic Underground, not Independent Lecture Underground.

[Prue]

11. Yeah - how's that working out

Your attitude will only get Trump a second term. No one is lecturing here but you. I won't engage you going forward. You're a very depressing individual.

[MineralMan]

13. Ask again in November.

Bye, now.

[rgbecker]

54. You're the big tent democrat we need so much.

If you don't agree with the guy's premise, say so, but why attack him personally for offering some constructive criticism? If you are supporting every registered Democrat, you are going to find yourself wrapped up in some serious inconsistencies.

[Hekate]

134. You've been here long enough to know that MM is DU's biggest GOTV fan, with 50 years experience

...at walking precincts for the Democratic Party. "Big Tent" is practically his middle name.

The newbie's premise is that s/he can sit outside the Dem tent as an "Independent" and "intellectually" tell us how to run our show, while contributing nothing (and I do not mean money) to make it work.

Personally, I find that irksome, this being a Democratic site and all, but MM said it first.

[MFM008]

22. He Wont Be around

For a "second" term.

[Demsrule86]

65. it is working out pretty well...consider the Wisconsin seat that was held fo 17 years...and is now a

Democratic seat...consider Virginia...we will take the House I think in 18 and then I think Trump's war on the American people will end.

[SWBTATTReg]

72. For someone who just joined and to make an statement like you did, and ...

considering all of the thousands and thousands of different comments and/or suggestions of DUers over the last several months have led you to jump to a conclusion, all in a short interval of time...wow.

There are thousands of threads going on in DU land over the last several months alone, and there are a lot of constructive discussions on many different topics and you knock DU for just basically one thing, and then make such a statement as you did??? Hmmmm...I agree w/ MM here.

And then, you get a little upset when you get flak when you find that other DUers don't agree w/ you 100% and say so. Too bad. Hang in there and expect to receive some flak sometimes...it's part of being a DUer and accepting criticism.

[DrDan]

94. you've been here 6 months and want to lecture the new members?

I saw nothing wrong with her posts - just trying to engage in some discussion with like-minded liberals. However, she was met by several here who seem emboldened to attack - simply based on low-post count and the fact that she is a registered independent. Neither of those criteria put restrictions on a posters content per the TOS.

[Prue]

96. I'm a girl

Just stating my gender for the record since I've been mistaken for a guy a couple times now on this thread. lol

[DrDan]

97. well - I offer some apologies for your welcome - it was unfair

there is nothing in the Terms of Service that says you cannot offer ideas based on a low-post count or the fact that you are not a registered Dem. Some long-timers in this thread seem confused about that.

Stick around and engage - there are many here willing to have an adult conversation.

[DrDan]

98. fixed - sorry - should have been more careful

[DemocratSinceBirth]

109. I'm not a big fan of purity tests or jumping on low count posters.

That being said I can see how people here who feel under siege are sensitive.

My only litmus test is that opposition to Trump and his ethnonationalism be unrelenting.

[pangaia]

104. I don't think you know Mineral man very well.

In fact, you do not know shit about Mineral Man.

[DrDan]

110. and exactly what difference does that make - it was inconsiderate

[Kentonio]

136. I'm sure they don't know anything about the Free Republic incident for instance.

Probably for the best all things considered.

[Tipperary]

174. This is kind of funny considering the lectures I have noticed you enjoy posting.

You post them with fairly regular frequency. I think your comments to this new poster were unkind. Despite your penchant for posting lectures, I have never seen you post as you did to this poster.

[Hortensis]

18. Thoughtful DUers don't need right-wing misinformation, Prue,

and we really do not like seeing posted here the same dishonest "framing" that enemies of the Democratic Party, here and abroad, have been disseminating for years now.

All thoughtful and informed Democrats are very aware of how profoundly dishonest this reframing is, and how damaging. "Tell a lie often enough and people will believe it." We don't need it told here to be aware that our enemies are blanketing our nation with it.

[Prue]

28. Huh?

What's so funny to me about this whole situation is that this site was recommended to me by a republican who thought I was too democratic. Now, if I'm understanding your comment, I'm being accused of being a republican because I made a suggestion on how the Democrats could improve their messaging so they could get the country behind them. I feel like an American without a home. hahahahaha shrug

[Me.]

49. Curious

What did you think you were signing up for when you joined a place called Democratic Underground, did you not read the mission statement? Your posts seem somewhat disingenuous to me.

[Prue]

50. Okay

I thought I was signing onto a site where individuals discussed democratic policies. I had heard about this site from others and was told that my views would probably be a good fit here.

But some of you guys seem very paranoid and to be frank - mean. Which seems to be the opposite of what I envisioned from a democrat's platform.

Best of luck attracting new members.

[Me.]

51. Pehaps You've Missed The Campaign Of Disinformation That Has Gone On Recently

It was part of what gave us 45 instead of a Dem. And here on this site, after it was hacked on election night, we've been subjected to a lot of it so the suspicion you're experiencing is not mean, it's informed. You're being challenged because you came here and immediately began by telling us what the Dems are doing wrong.

[Prue]

59. I came here in good faith

It sucks that your site was hacked and you've been infiltrated by some with dishonorable intentions. I came here in good faith but I seriously need to think whether I want to stay. There's a difference between challenging someone's ideas and making them feel completely unwanted. In that regard the "messaging" is excellent. I'm a pretty easy going person but I'm not a push over and I believe in honesty and speaking my mind.

[Me.]

63. You Say You Came In Good Faith

Granted. But would it not have been a better move to make yourself known to the community first rather than arrive as a stranger and immediately began to criticize.

[Prue]

67. Sure if I'm a child

I'm an adult who signed up to talk with other adults. This is too hard. I will politely bow out. This is one experience I will certainly not forget anytime soon. Being chased away from a discussion site because I came to actually have a discussion.

Cheers and good luck. Stay the course.

I'll give you the last word and then I'll sign off.

[Me.]

69. The Hilarious Thing About Your POsts

Is that you're criticizing Dem messaging but don't seem very good at it yourself.

[Hortensis]

82. Why not read more about what Democrats believe in?

We have many factions because we are incredibly diverse, a true big tent, but the commonality is also tremendous.

Here's a link to our platform. It's lengthy, but you can read only the table of contents can be inspired and reminded why you are a Democrat. From there you can open the links for further information on what we intend to accomplish for America. Then you can search the web for articles and discussions on topics of particular interest by people who believe in those messages. Enjoy. Nothing is a better antidote to right-wing lies than saying a big no to them and immersing yourself in the reality of what we are about.

https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

[emulatorloo]

101. Welcome to DU. Stick around a while, it is a good site

[bdamomma]

126. I agree stick around

read the policies here and what this site is about first before you sign out. We are very diverse group of people, with everything from criticisms to being very open with our comments. That's what makes everyone special and above all what makes us Democrats.

[Egnever]

131. Meh

You are fine. It's the internet. Take it with a grain of salt.

This place flips out over insignificant perceived slights all the time.

You seem to have hit the lottery with your criticism of Dem messaging for some reason. Try not to take it personally and just move on from this thread is my advise.

This site has good and bad. Lots of great info surfaces here often way ahead of other places it can also be hypersensitive or worse outright looking for reasons to act righteous.

Nothing wrong with your original post in this thread. Try to keep in mind some of the folks here feel at war right now with the current admin and republican party. Some have been fighting that war for a long time . Lots of raw emotion running around here.

Sorry your post got jumped on it didn't deserve it IMHO. Let this thread go is again my advise.

[uppityperson]

70. Welcome to du. Newbies get grilled and a cost watch because too often they are

here to disrupt. There are all sorts of people posting here. Some are more welcoming than others. Check out the smaller forums also as gd can be a bit much.

[Demsrule86]

66. You are either a Democrat or you are not...not too much ...blah blah. We have those in this party

lean towards the moderate side...no issues with that. But those who are 'independent' and lean are almost always conservative.

[ehrnst]

116. "Concern trolling" isn't a hahahaha shrug.

Just an fyi.

[Prue]

118. Duly Noted

[PdxSean]

160. Cheerleader Camp vs Focus Group

Some see DU as cheerleader camp where we should cheer the team no matter what the players and coaching staff are doing. Rah-rah-rah!

A few, usually us newbies, come here with a focus group mentality, thinking it’s okay to make suggestions based on our perspectives as Democratic voters.

Some of us are even bold even bold enough to think we are PLAYERS on the team because we contribute our time and money to Democratic causes and candidates.

Sometimes, unfortunately, the canaries in the coal mine get stomped down and labeled concern trolls because they clearly know nothing about mining coal as evidenced by their low post counts. Remember when Nate Silver said Hillary could lose? He got much the same reaction, so you’re in good company.

Try not to let it get you down. As others have said, this is just the internet. DU is great for group hugs when you need it, but we are as dysfunctional as any other family.

[Aristus]

39. It's not an insult. You just took a wrong turn.

This is the Democratic Underground, not the Independent Underground.

It's been my experience that people who rush to call themselves 'independent' support the Republicans, but don't like to get tagged with the party name that is synonymous with racism, bigotry, Rand-ian economic beliefs, backwardness, provincialism, misogyny, and general misanthropy.

We appreciate thoughtful contribution here. If you know anyone who could offer it, direct them to this site.

[Prue]

43. I am so confused.....

So I should lie and pretend that I'm 100% Democrat in order to have my contributions weighed fairly?

Sorry - but that's not in my nature. If the site only prefers 100% Democratic members I completely respect that and will move on.

I'm actually really glad I tried this site. It will help me going forward on choosing my words better so I don't offend others.

[femmedem]

57. I want to pop in and say that I think you've been very careful with your words

and not offensive.

It's true that this site is about advancing Democratic candidates and issues. But I didn't see anything in your posts that violated that.

And I don't believe that Democrats do their candidates any favors when they lash out at people like you who are looking for a political home.

Sorry your experience here was so bad.

[RandomAccess]

68. BECAUSE

a lot of people here have very thin skins when it comes to their politics, and especially outsiders (newbies, "independents" and others) trying to tell them how to do things. Hell, many of them won't abide criticism from even their own. You should see the infighting that goes on here -- the entrenched camps within the party.

BECAUSE the owners very strongly do not want criticism of Democrats, the Democratic Party, etc. I think that's pretty well outlined in the stuff you signed to join, right?

BECAUSE it's the internet.

I am personally a bit more tolerant of your kind of "contribution" (air quotes because it's not seen as most others here as such, esp. from newbies), and I'm not against reframing, per se, but if you're talking Lakoff, I have a huge problem with that. I just can't grok it.

If you lean mostly Dem, if you wish the Dems to win big in Nov. so we can start to get things back on an even keel here, I suggest you stick around -- that is, if you survive your intro thread here, and IF you can manage to keep some of your sure to be less popular ideas to yourself. Or "frame" them better.

[Prue]

71. No Thanks

I appreciate the feedback. I do want the Democrats to win and believe that President Obama will be viewed as one of our greatest Presidents of our time. I don't think I'm a good fit here but I appreciate you outlining the Do's and Don'ts.

I've already sent a note to the administrator's asking them to delete my account. It's clear my presence here has upset some and that's not how I want to contribute.

Good luck

[RandomAccess]

74. Well I'm sorry to hear that BECAUSE

a different day, a different time of day, you might have had a completely different experience. THOSE people don't "own" the site, after all. AND, you've gotten some good, decent feedback too. I suggest you think it over more.

Just in case.

[uppityperson]

78. I second this, and hate the newbie bashing that happens too often

Critiquing the party to improve it is a good thing.

Give du another try, another thread, another forum.

[treestar]

80. Well if you can't handle a bit of push back

I was only pointing out as I always do that people can't just criticize, they have to get involved. And you suggested a "better" way to message, but didn't want anyone to argue with that either. And both messages could be used.

[RobinA]

88. Im Sorry

you’ve had this reception. Unfortunately, there is a tendency here to bash people who question the party line. There are good things about DU, but tolerance of varied opinions isn’t one of them.

[emulatorloo]

102. Youve upset a couple people. Not a big deal. Stick around for a while

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. IMHO, in order to defeat Trump we need both the center right and the center left on out.

Once We defeat Trump and the Deplorables we can litigate our differences civilly.

[True Dough]

177. I agree with this. SO MUCH!

Bickering among ourselves can wait. We can ferret out the disingenuous types in our ranks down the road. No need to greet every new face that doesn't introduce themselves in a supine manner by quickly hauling out the torches and pitchforks!

[ehrnst]

120. Why do you think you need to have an adminstrator "delete your account?"

If you truly support progressives, there isn't a reason to leave.

And you certainly don't need to ask an administrator to delete your account.

Why would you feel a need to announce that you are doing so if you think you have upset people enough already.

[marble falls]

142. Good advice, he will not take. The poster's here to stir things up, he's "a registered Independent".

[kcr]

107. Or

If you're not a Democrat, this isn't the place for you. Easy!

[ehrnst]

121. Perhaps you are unclear on what a site named "Democratic Underground" is about

but that seems unlikely.

[George II]

125. You can click "alert abuse" at the bottom of any post on this site to see the list of rules....

..of the site. Then if you click each of the rules you can see the rationale behind each one. That might give you a feel for the site.

I hope this helps.

PS - do NOT hit the "I believe the post breaks this rule" or you'll actually send an alert, which cannot be retracted.

[Demsrule86]

64. Trump created the mess and lied repeatedly...most folks don't arrive and immediately

begin with what they consider is constructive criticism.

[Kentonio]

135. MineralMan is not an admin here

His opinions matter no more than anyone else's. Personally I'd like to hear a lot more open minds like yours. Please continue to post, we need rigorous self examination a lot more than we need an echo chamber and self aggrandizement.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. It is a bad look...

Regardless of how one feels about the Dreamers a government should never renege on a promise. The Dreamers were promised if they came out of the shadows and registered they would be protected. Now that they are registered they are being told they might not be protected and the fact that they registered makes them easier to find.

[Prue]

14. Terrible Optics is just the beginning

I agree. These young people trusted this government to honor it's pledge to them. I'm stunned that anyone would think it's okay to do what this White House and republicans are attempting to do.

[treestar]

81. No one dreamed Hillary would not win and Trump would

But when it comes down to it, we can't promise anything because the next election can change things.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

87. Rounding them up now after they voluntarily registered...

Rounding them up now after they voluntarily registered evokes images of cattle cars and detention camps.

[treestar]

90. That's true, it's that Shitler's base

has no problem with that.

[PdxSean]

157. Actually, Nate Silver tried to warn us.

He and other canaries in the coal mine, ironically like Prue here, were labeled concern trolls.

[treestar]

159. Did he specifically say to campaign more in

the swing states? We thought we had chances at getting AZ or GA.

The polls no longer serve as well. Hopefully we learned that at least.

IMO the Orange Disaster's election was a big fluke.

[fallout87]

21. So an echo chamber is what we need?

Nope. nothing wrong with brainstorming here, even if that means opposing opinions.

(Before you get hot and bothered.....registered democrat here)

[treestar]

24. Brainstorming is fine

though to be useful, we ultimately have to get involved.

I don't see how criticizing the leaders alone is going to help, either. People have to participate. That's the only way it works. Criticizing those who have done something and are more involved just does not work.

[Squinch]

26. This new poster has a very good point to make. The republicans ability to frame the message better

than we do is obvious. For some reason, many here seem to think that acknowledging our need to be better at messaging is disloyal to the Democratic party. It is exactly the opposite. We are right. Everyone should know it. So far they don't. We MUST change that.

[peggysue2]

44. Agreed!

Last edited Sun Jan 21, 2018, 04:17 PM - Edit history (1)

As Dems, we too frequently lose in the framing department. The GOP is furiously framing this as 'illegal immigration' taking precedence over American children's healthcare.

That would be funny if it weren't so tragic. The DACA kids should not be corralled under the 'illegal immigration' banner; they were brought here by their families, have only known one country--the US. As for the CHIP program? Republicans have been willing to trade sick kids for their own purposes from the start of this, a bargaining chip in human lives. Trump is now referring to the shutdown as a hostage situation.

Because, of course, he is.

Democrats are on the right side of this argument. The problem is the Republicans hold power not only in DC but on the airways. And they're getting a little help from their friends, as in foreign adversaries, who love churning things up, playing the right and the left.

Chuck Schumer was willing to concede a partial payment towards the Trumpster's odious Wall, something that would have had the Democratic base up in arms. But Trump refused to settle, the Art of the Steal. Truth is we need a reasonable immigration policy because immigration is essential for the country's growth and continued prosperity. Who has been sitting on this, refusing to bring anything to the floor? The Republicans.

The DACA crisis was initiated by Trump and the Keebler Elf. The GOP has known about the deadline but has refused to act. Over 80% of the population agrees that DACA kids should be protected. A country the size of ours should not be running on short-term budget deals.And who said the country was overdue for a 'good shutdown?' That would be the Trumpster in all his faux glory.

And that's why we're here. The only thing we can do is keep pumping the truth out. And maybe, come up with a mind-melding tagline.

[Squinch]

47. This is what I have been trying to say, but you said it better!

[bdamomma]

128. great post

I enjoyed reading that, food for thought.

[zentrum]

60. Agreed Squinch. Welcome

…to the newcomer and wish we had better answers to give than just "go away" and are you a mole for even asking such a question?

[treestar]

83. Not true. But how does some random message thought up by a helpful critic

get used? Only if they participate and get out there. And learn enough to ponder if they are really right.

"Messaging" is for dumb Republicans, too. Democrats don't need as many sound bites. The mushy middle might, but who is to say either way of putting the Dreamer's issue before them is better and only one should be used?

Sympathy might be better - those using that obviously think so. We can't make promises as the next election can always change everything. That is not a truly honest way of putting it. We could also argue it is just the right thing to do, since we failed to enforce against their parents and them faster. That might resonate with others.

That post originally said using sympathy is entirely wrong and that the "promise" must be used and is much better. We are not required to agree merely because it is critical.

[Squinch]

95. We are talking about two different things here. You are discussing what needs to be said.

I am talking about how it is said. Where it is said. How often and how consistently it is said.

We could argue anything you like, but right now whatever it is that we choose to argue is being drowned out by the arguments and shenanigans and consistent, relentless messaging of the other side. Argue whatever you want but the way we do it now, no one is hearing or reading it.

Messaging is not for dumb republicans. Democrats need messaging just as much as anybody else.

And no one said anything about you being required to agree merely because it is critical. That's a strawman, as I think you know.

[hueymahl]

176. I've come late to this thread

And as much as I respect you, I think you and other defending you have been disrespectful.

[Demsrule86]

62. Why are you even here? We support Democrats. 'past' mistakes...sure.

It is not constructive whatsoever.

[ehrnst]

115. Do you vote for Democrats? Because that's really what determines your

party preference and loyalties.

[Prue]

117. Answer

Well......this is kinda like a test. Cool - I generally do well on tests but I don't always ace them. So, to answer your question truthfully, I have always voted Democratic except for one time back in 2003 when I voted for Robert Ehrlich for governor and I ended up regretting it. None of this really matters because I've already requested my account be deactivated. I'm just hanging out until it happens and reading the comments trying to wrap my head around where I went wrong. hahahahaha

[ehrnst]

119. hahahaha.

So do you think this will hold true in the future?

[marble falls]

143. All you need to do to deactivate your account is to stop your posting. Maybe one day you'll see...

the lite and understand in a two party system there is no viable way to be truly independent when the GOP is out to screw everybody else. And then you may want to participate in DemocraticUnderground as a Democrat.

[treestar]

8. Why are they not doing it your way, then?

If it's such a good idea? Have you contacted the leaders to tell them about this? Have you done anything to become a leader and be the change you seek? If your way is better, surely you would rise to the top, right? You know how to "message" better than they do.

[Prue]

16. I appreciate the nomination

I'm not permitted to lobby but I do what I can under the ethics rules. I'm not suggesting that I'm right. I'm simply putting out an idea for discussion.

I'm starting to realize that maybe this site is not for open dialogue or solutions. I think perhaps I made an error in joining.

[treestar]

19. Well we can't decide for them

You have to get in touch with them to make a difference. Or be one of them. I don't know why you are not "permitted" to lobby? Everyone is. If we all agreed with you they should do the messaging another way, then we'd have to do something about it. Just going over it here is not going to do much.

And you have not acknowledged that the media does not allow Democrats nearly as much chance to do "Messaging."

[Prue]

25. Well.....I am temporarily out of work

Maybe I could reach out and offer my 2cents. I thought I was getting engaged when I joined this site but as you point out maybe that's not enough. Maybe you could offer some suggestions that you've found worthy during your outreach efforts.

I'm not sure how to address the media comment. Maybe if one of the democratic politicians started a "grab em by the pussy" campaign it may bring media attention. (smile)

[Generic Other]

30. We are a tough crowd, Prue

I appreciate your honesty. Don't give up. We need to right the ship of state, and it will take concerted effort from like minded people -- not just those in lockstep agreement about everything.

The stakes are too high.

[Prue]

36. Tough crowd indeed

I appreciate your feedback. I must fall within the naive category because I've never experienced a site attack new members. hahahahaha

Yes, this is an important time in our country's history. Our democracy is slowly being chipped away and we should all be worried. There will be consequences that will have a rippling affect for generations after this President leaves the White House.

[treestar]

85. You were not attacked. You seem to

expect automatic agreement only. A discussion involves challenging the ideas presented.

The majority favor the DACA, so how is it the Democrats' messaging is wrong on it?

[Kentonio]

137. Seemed like an attack to me.

Several longtime posters jumped straight on her and basically said she had no right to question the party and probably didn't belong here. It was exactly the same intolerant and abrasive attitude that drives away too many new posters.

[femmedem]

141. You and others absolutely attacked her.

I'm sorry she left but I don't blame her.

I've been here since the Bush years, and I found the pile-on so unwarranted and disheartening that I'm not feeling too great about this online community either.

[treestar]

149. I did not attack; I disagreed

I disagree with this idea that just criticizing what others do is going to help - people have to get involved if they want to have an effect. Further, with 80% support, it is silly to claim the messaging on DACA is what has failed.

[femmedem]

156. Nothing wrong with the way you just phrased it to me.

And I doubt that Prue would have objected to politely phrased disagreement. But your earlier choice of words was taunting and sarcastic: "If your way is better, surely you would rise to the top, right? You know how to "message" better than they do."

Other posters said, Bye Felicia, accused her of concern trolling, of lecturing, of not belonging here, and laughed at her when she said she has, with one exception she regrets, always voted for Democrats.

And your point about getting involved matters--but no one should be jumped on for posting on a message board. As it happens, I serve on my Democratic Town Committee and am active in getting Democrats elected. But for others, spending time on a political message board may be a way of becoming more engaged with politics and may lead to more concrete activism down the road.

The sad thing is, her initial post about messaging was a good one, I thought, but that got lost in the bashing. I live in a liberal, overwhelmingly Democratic city, and we support the Dreamers. But in other more conservative, less diverse areas, a message about America keeping its word would resonate.

Lastly, if Democrats don't act more welcoming than this to left-leaning unaffiliated voters, we are going to alienate a huge chunk of voters that we need.

[treestar]

158. Maybe, though that is the essence of what people are saying

when they claim the messaging is wrong. They must purport to know better.

With 80% support, the messaging on DACA need not be changed (even a percentage of actual Donald voters support DACA if it is that high).

[True Dough]

178. A little tact and diplomacy would go a long way

You are so right, femmedem. We could use more people who think like you around this forum. Some here are far too intent to sniff out perceived threats and run them off. It's a shame. Give newcomers some time and see if suspicions bear themselves out. It's not like they're going to undermine/brainwash other DUers in 25 or fewer posts anyway.

[femmedem]

179. Thank you so much.

And I love your username!

[Voltaire2]

167. you are correct. Prue wasn't simply attacked.

She was subjected to the tag team newbie pile-on "welcome to du" experience.

Sort of disgusting, in my opinion.

Sorry Prue.

[Fla Dem]

170. If this happened to me, I would certainly feel as if I was attacked and not wanted.

I applaud those who came to her defense. We can criticize, push back and debate without calling into question one's motivation. If they have ulterior motives, that will come out soon enough. I would think we are strong enough to resist being pulled to the dark side.

We should welcome Indies. Wouldn't it be great if we could convince them the Democratic Party is a great place to be and they join our battles rather than taking fire hoses to them.

[ehrnst]

122. hahahaha, Attack?

Who attacked you, Prue?

[tonedevil]

46. If you believe an idea...

rises to the top on its own merits with no need for politics or framing I sincerely hope someone holds your hand every time you cross the street.

[treestar]

79. Irrelevant

That is not what I said.

I am merely tired of would-be framers who think they are better at it than the people at the top. They need to get involved rather than just criticize.

[dottie66]

9. I agree, you make good points.

Dems need better messaging.

[Hav]

34. I agree to a degree

The Repubs seem to be better in framing the debate. Fox News and Twitter bots carrying their talking points help in that regard. How else can you sell a completely unnecessary tax "reform" that so obviously favours the 1% while bankrupting the country even more? They are the masters at getting people to vote against their own interests regarding health and economical issues.

Concerning DACA, I wouldn't call it the wrong message to make it an issue about human beings, unless you mean it in the sense of it being not as effective. Either way, in my opinion, in order to succeed, the Democrats need it to be more than something abstract, like the abbreviation, or what the Repubs are doing in making it an abstract issue about crime and security. That's why they emphasize the human factor.

[delisen]

38. Overwhelming majority of Americans want DACA.

[treestar]

84. And given that, how can the messaging be so bad?

It's been a success by that metric.

[delisen]

89. I think so.

[thbobby]

52. I disagree with you premise

Dreamers are what is important here. Not messaging or propaganda. By bringing this into the national spotlight, Democrats are helping to make sure that trump will not be able to treat dreamers as he wants.

[zentrum]

56. Many good Democrats

…..want the Dems to message better. George Lakoff tries to teach them all the time to get better at this.

BTW—considering how this thread unfolds below—I feel I need to say I am a lifelong Democrat and have often walked door to door for them.

"This American Life" did an excellent segment today on the Democratic Party trying to find a way to better explain their policies, especially to Independents and undecideds.

Highly recommended segment.

It's vital that we get this right for 2018 and the discussion needs to be held open so we can do it.

[Demsrule86]

61. I completely disagree. I don't think the 'honor' message would resonate. I think people don't

want to see DACA kids sent back to their deaths in many cases...and any who might even consider what I think it a republicanesque approach that you describe would never vote for us.

[rockfordfile]

73. What's with the far right talking points

"political correctness" That's something that fascists years ago would say.

[questionseverything]

77. 2nd amendment voters are terrified of a national gun owners registery

because they think the gov't will collect the names then at a later time, use the list to round them up

this is exactly what has happened to the daca peops

if we framed the message more along your lines we might gain the support of a few of the 2nd amend peops....splintering our opposition is exactly what we need

don't let that poster run you off or turn you off from supporting democrats

[aikoaiko]

103. Some members are giving you a hard time because you didn't

say Democrats are perfect.

There are some on this board who do not want even the slightest bit of criticism to occur on DU -- especially from someone new. Its easy to make new folks feel unwanted and scare them off.

I say welcome and I hope your intentions are good.

The only real requirement for the board is that you support Democrats in elections.

[treestar]

152. Not no criticism, but it has been tiring with the Bernie fiasco

And a lot of it is unwarranted.

The "framing" thing is especially annoying, since that poll shows a large majority of Americans favor the DACA relief. So that was one frame that was not wrong.

And the media! How can the Democrats be at fault when the media promotes the Republicans? If Democrats "framed" everything properly, it would not make it onto air.

[johnp3907]

108. You use "they" and "their" a lot when talking about Democrats.

Shouldn't that be "we" and "our?"

[Prue]

111. I was referring to the Leaders

My comments were directed toward the leaders and the Politicians not voters. I see where my words have created this air of suspicion but there is nothing I can do about it at this point and any attempt to try and clarify has been met with additional skepticism and anger.

[ehrnst]

123. So you think that Democratic leaders are the problem?

In what way?

[DrDan]

133. poor messaging, obviously (not to put words into that posters mouth)

the party leaders are criticized here all the time. No reason a new member can't.

[ehrnst]

144. In what way? Examples, please. (nt)

[DrDan]

145. examples of what - poor messaging or leader criticism?

[DrDan]

146. here's one example

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/10141902523#post27

criticism of the DNC for poor messaging

[ehrnst]

147. I was asking for examples of poor leadership

and poor messaging on the part of Democrats, not examples of other people saying what they think is poor leadership or messaging.

Is that clearer?

[treestar]

153. I don't see how the leaders did such a poor job here

Most Americans support the DACA.

And probably they have their reasons. They do polls and focus groups. Even if they read DU, they would not necessarily agree that they are poor at messaging and that their frames are wrong.

As it is, most Americans support the Democrats. I had read that there were more votes for Democrats overall in the House elections, and that even so, the House went to the Republicans. It is our system that favors conservatives. The red states having more weight to their votes - that is why the Orange Disaster sits in the OO.

[OhioBlue]

132. Welcome to DU!

I agree that the Dems need to do a much better job of framing the issues and getting their message out effectively to everyday Americans.

[Prue]

163. In an effort to redeem myself.

I’m Prue - Oh and I’m a girl (clarifying because some here thought I was a guy).

I work in an Office whose mission is focused on women’s health. We have several directives but I’m only going to discuss one of them since a component of it speaks to this “discussion”. Outreach, Education and Communication. In other words, messaging. Recently, a colleague and I were contacted by a prominent advocacy group here in DC. They asked if we could meet and speak with another group to share our messaging model. They wanted us to give them some insight that would help them with their messaging and legislative language. It was a great meeting and they were very pleased with our input FYI - we are NOT for hire. As I tried, and failed, to explain yesterday, imo, the current messaging is not resonating with those outside of core democrat supporters and will NOT get through the current legislative bodies…for obvious reasons.

For example “equity”, I would guess that most if not all members on this board would agree that equality is good. But some factions in our country hear it as a battle cry. To them, it does not mean “fair and right” but rather someone is taking something away from them and giving it to someone else. Further, their perception is that it’s being given to someone undeserving. How can this misconception be changed? …….it can’t, at least not in the near future. So what I was suggesting is “we” should stop trying to change the perception because the republicans have been too successful changing what it means to their voters.

My intent yesterday was to engage in a good discussion on how to broaden the democrats reach with unhappy republican and trump supporters. I was in my think tank/brainstorming mode so I apologize that I didn't ease into the community.

Finally, the “welcoming committee” here sucks. I appreciate those who stepped up to try and sooth the situation but it’s a proven fact that most people remember the bad that happens to them more often than the good. What happened here yesterday is not how to advance the cause, embrace new members, and stimulate creativity.

With that, I’m outta here but I wish you good luck fighting the fight. Stay the course – it’s important. I'm told my work will be reopening tomorrow. Cheers!

[Voltaire2]

168. I hope you find someplace intellectually engaging and progressive.

And I am sorry this happened to you. You seem like a good person. You are owed apologies.

[femmedem]

171. I am truly sorry about the reception you received.

I doubt you'll ever read this, but I want you to know I posted this as its own thread so that DU can--I hope--reflect on your words and practice some introspection.

[Skittles]

173. people equate that to political correctness?

maybe racist people do

[Hortensis]

2. I find it suspicious. I don't believe all pushing it are foolish.

It is a major theme in huge disinformation campaigns being waged by conservative forces here and abroad.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. Determining the winner is beyond my ken.

We'll know soon enough. I just don't like the pessimism.

[Squinch]

32. A large swath of the country believed Hillary was running a pedophile ring out of a pizza

parlor. Large percentages of Americans think the republicans are the party of fiscal responsibility and family values, despite generations of them blowing up the economy and screwing over families. People believe the republicans are the ones who take care of the troops, despite the republicans ALWAYS voting to reduce protections and pay for veterans and active service people.

Right now, many are crowing about how well the stock market is doing under the republican shithole. How many have YOU see who mention the FACT that the stock market did BETTER during Obama's first year? I've seen one story mention that.

I don't like the pessimism either, but I'm one of the ones who feel it. We are right. Our policies are the ones people want, despite what they are convinced by the republicans.

Yes, right now we are winning elections and I believe we will stomp republicans in 2018. But until we take stock of what they are doing with messaging and find ways to effectively counteract it, we should expect that they will lie and cheat and take credit for what WE do until we figure it out.

[Crunchy Frog]

42. I can't even believe that this is controversial. It used to pretty much be the consensus here.

These kinds of knee-jerk reactions, and accusations in response to even the mildest of constructive criticisms are the reason why I've almost stopped posting here. I guess that's good news to a majority of the current DU membership.

[Squinch]

45. I think some people are thinking we are saying that Dems are losing, which HAS been

something that the bots are trying to push.

As for the others, I do sort of see their point. Right now, we just have to put all our differences aside and get Dems back into power. I get nervous when I see things I suspect might dilute that effort. They might think this is one of those things. I happen to think this is the opposite of that. If we face our failure in this area and figure out how to "do a Putin" and get messages into people's minds, there will be nothing that can stop us.

The thing is that many who are speaking against this are people I know to be sincere and dedicated Democrats. I suspect there is some communication disconnect on this topic. Which is very ironic.

[Squinch]

27. Hortensis, look at what you are saying: conservative forces are waging huge disinformation

campaigns here and abroad.

That is obviously true.

What campaigns are we waging to counteract that? For goodness sakes, 30% of the country thought Hillary was running a pedo ring out of a pizza parlor.

We MUST acknowledge that we need to be better at messaging and then take the steps necessary to make that happen.

[GreenEyedLefty]

15. Don't know about anyone else, but I look at results.

The fact is, Democrats are winning, and have won the majority of special elections held since the 2016 elections, and won big in Virginia.

Cable news is but a sliver of the information that is out there... it is a carefully constructed narrative that, by design, pits one side against the other to do nothing more than gin up ratings and viewers, not to tell people what is really going on.

I suggest going elsewhere for proof of who is winning or losing.

I am suspicious of the motives behind people who come here to DU to tell us we are losing. That is bullshit, plain and simple.

[Squinch]

29. I am one of the people saying we are losing the messaging war. That is a very different thing

from saying we are losing. I really don't think anyone is saying we are losing.

Yes, we are winning elections now. That is because our past failures to counteract the Russian/republican messaging has landed us with the worst president in American history, and SOME people are finally terrified. That has nothing to do with our messaging.

The republicans are better at messaging than we are. For example, the majority of the country still sees them as the party of fiscal responsibility and family values despite at least 20 years of acting against fiscal responsibility and family values. Based on the evidence, people should be in no doubt that Democrats are the ones watching out for their wallets and their families. And yet that is not happening. And that is only one example. WE MUST CHANGE THAT.

There is nothing "suspicious" about my motives when I say that. It is something we need to master or we will have more shithole republicans sullying up the Congress and the White House.

[Orrex]

33. Exactly correct

For some asinine reason, people still see Republicans as the "pro-life" party, despite their aggressive campaign to kill low income children and children of immigrants.

They also imagine that Republicans are pro-military, despite their utter failure to support the troops once their service has ended.

Republicans are absolutely better at messaging, in no small measure because they control a sizable chunk of the mediasphere.

As was noted recently, Republicans are great at campaigning and terrible at governing.

[Squinch]

35. Oh, God! Don't get me started on their "pro-life" bullshit. I work with disabled children.

I'm just waiting for the deaths from things like sepsis and pneumonia to start now that CHIP is gone.

It is very true that they have an advantage because of their ownership of the media. But Putin managed to get into Americans' minds without owning the media. We can take a page from his book. Where is our organized social media push? Why do more Democratic drivers not put pro Democrat or anti Republican bumper stickers on their cars? Why, when Hillary had so many more voters in my neighborhood, did I see Trump(R) lawn signs and not Hillary ones.

We really all need to take part, and we all need to do our part, but at the same time, we need someone at a party level to organize us.

[Orrex]

37. Regarding the bumper stickers

As a general rule, I'd guess that Republicans are more comfortable destroying others' property than Democrats are, so a pro-Hillary bumper sticker might readily result in a scratch running the length of the vehicle, while a pro-Trump sticker likely wouldn't.

That's not definitive, of course, but fear of reprisal is exactly why I didn't post any Clinton signs on my lawn here in my Red county.


Good point about Putin getting into people's heads, too.

[Squinch]

41. I do get that. I did the math in my head and calculated that countering their message was

worth a keying. I understand that everyone would not feel the same.

I live in an apartment so I can't do the lawn sign so I wear political buttons on my coat and have often been confronted by angry republicans for it. I usually refuse to engage and wish them a nice day. My statement is my statement and when they try to pick a fight, all that does is tell me they have seen my statement.

[LeftInTX]

175. I have a protest sign that says, "Ted Cruz Hates Babies"

My granddaughter was born on Obamacare. When I wrote Cruz about my granddaughter, he sent back a stupid message about how Obamacare is killing jobs.

So, Ted Cruz hates babies.

My sign has a photo of my startled granddaughter looking at pictures of Ted saying, "Jesus, I Hate the Poor", "Jesus, I Hate the Sick"...along with thunderbolts of lightening and "The Curse of Ted".

Ted Cruz Hates Babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[treestar]

86. Why is that the Democrats' fault rather than the media

and the fake news sites and the dishonesty of the Republicans and the dishonesty and stupidity of people who fall for it?

I don't think anyone believes Hillary ran the pedo ring. They keep saying it, hoping to get real dumb voters already biased to believe it. Probably a very few of them saying it actually believe it.

The Democrats would have to go to similar lows, wouldn't they? And then it would be "oh we are better than that."

[Squinch]

93. I never said it was the Democrats' fault. It's no one's fault. It is simply a fact.

And we have two choices: we can either ignore it and continue to let them frame all the narratives, so that the average voter continues to believe they are the fiscally responsible, family values party for example, or we can learn how to message well ourselves so we can override some of the conservative owned media and get out the message that we are the ones in the right.

And no, there is no reason we would have to go to similar lows. The lows are their message, not their methods. We want to copy their methods, definitely not the tenor of their message. Their methods are a disciplined, constant and ubiquitous repetition. We could certainly do that and get some eyes and ears on actual facts rather than the crap they spew.

And you're wrong about no one believing that about Hillary. I personally am aware of a group of young, uninformed voters who stayed home because they hated the republican shithole, but they also didn't want to vote for a "lady pedophile." Who knows how many others are out there like them?

[treestar]

150. People have been saying this for years

and yet we still win a lot of elections. And why do we never learn? (Or our leaders never learn - I don't see that you can have an effect on "messaging" without somehow getting involved).

You know a whole group of people who believed that?

How could that have been prevented? What did Hillary or others fail to do that "let" the Republicans get away with that one - the most egregious one they did, too.

[Squinch]

165. Oy. OK. We still win a lot of elections. Nothing can be improved. There is nothing about that

asshole in the white house that suggests we might need to do anything differently. What we should do when we see him squatting in our nation's capital and when we watch Russian bots take over the air waves is throw up our hands and change nothing.

[treestar]

166. How did the Dems let the Republicans get away with

saying Hillary was running a pedo ring out of a pizza shop? What failures of the Dems made so many people believe it.

[chowder66]

172. I know I'm late to the party but I saw this today and thought I'd share....

Lawrence O'Donnell on twitter said....

"Democrats will always fail at “messaging” in a complex legislative environment because they never speak with one voice & always answer questions about the complexities instead of repeating a “message” which is why they never figure out what their “message” should be."

This is exactly what I've thought over and over again just never found the right "messaging" to convey it. LOL. I would also probably state it a little more positively than O'Donnell did but I get his point.

This is why I don't necessarily knock Democrats for messaging issues. Governing is complex and there are so many scenarios we probably can't even imagine.

It does need to get boiled down though... especially in a soundbite/twitter world.

It seems we need a think tank messaging forum, unless there is one here that I'm unaware of.

[Phoenix61]

17. Do you remember the old

Wendy's "Where's the beef?" or AT&T's "Reach out and touch someone" or "Trix are for kids silly rabbit"? Those were all pure marketing genius. Simple tag lines that resonate with people are very effective. It seems we have relied on the logic of our position to gain support. That would work great if people acted on their thoughts but they don't, they act on their feelings. I believe we could do better at reaching people on that level. Showing someone being deported and their children crying makes people feel bad no matter what is said. Showing a happy family together with the tag line" We keep families together" makes people feel good. Same message but one leaves you with a warm fuzzy.

[treestar]

20. Maybe we could encourage people to use thinking more than feelings

I hate giving up on this as people's feelings are not dependable.

[Phoenix61]

23. It's more a tendency of human nature

If we acted logically we would exercise every day, use credit cards only for emergencies and reservations, eat healthy, get enough sleep and on and on. But for the most part we don't. People carry credit card debt because they felt they just had to have something. They put off exercising because they don' feel like it.

[Kentonio]

139. Realistically though the vast majority of people are almost completely politically disconnected

They might watch the news, but they don't know details of party platforms, or closely follow political developments unless the media happen to blow them up into a huge story. I love the idea of people using their critical thinking abilities more, but I think we'd be waiting an awfully long time for that to actually happen when it comes to politics.

[Caliman73]

169. Actually, feelings are dependable and necessary. What they are is primative.

That is the problem. Feelings are a necessary part of human evolution and survival. We feel scared so we run, or we fight. We feel sad which gathers people around to support and create community. We feel happy and we seek others out. All of those things are inspired by feelings.

As I said however, emotional responses are primitive responses that must be tempered as you suggested, but thought and contemplation. It is good to get people excited. It motivates them to action, but that action must be directed by planning. Therein lies the rub. Planning, thinking, contemplation...they are hard, and boring. Would you rather watch a play or look over a spreadsheet to plan a budget?

We need a way to do both. Reach people on an emotional level, and get them thinking and acting in a logical way.

[Me.]

53. You're Talking Hate But This POst Strikes Me As Completely Negative

"They are losing on all fronts, except with the old white people, whose desires have been getting more selfish, more hateful, and more wicked as they get older"

[mcar]

48. There is a disturbing penchant to blame and denigrate Dems

and call it "constructive criticism."

[Hortensis]

91. Another name for concern.

[Jersey Devil]

55. Again?

[Demsrule86]

58. I don't think we are losing...same old same old...a way to attack Democrats who never do anything

right it seems for some here.

[Squinch]

100. Do you believe that republicans are the party of fiscal responsibility? Do you believe they are the

party of family values? Do you believe that republicans are the party that takes care of military personnel and their families?

Because most of the country does.

All of those things are patently untrue. For at least a generation now, Democrats have cleaned up the economy every time the republicans blew it up. Democrats consistently pass legislation to help children, the aged, veterans, servicepeople and their families, while republicans repeatedly try to shoot them down.

And yet most of the country still sees republicans as the party of fiscal conservativism and family values.

That is a failure of messaging. There are at least a thousand other examples.

You keep saying, in post after post, that it's just people saying Democrats never do anything right. You seem to have completely missed the fact that most of us are saying that Democrats are doing everything right with one exception: getting out the message that we are doing the right things.

[Demsrule86]

127. If it is not the message than it is something else. We don't have a TV station geared to our party..

we don't have talk radio or the Kremlin...our guys do the best they can. And I am damn sick of the criticism. They talk plenty but the coverage is simply not there. They need support of the donors (that were called corporate and chased away) and all of us to get the message out. Many here complain incessantly about what the Democratic leaders are doing blah blah and they are always found wanting...how about seeing what you can do instead of waiting for other to do it for you. I am tired of the 'constructive criticsm' Before the shutdown I was informed by multiple people who engage in this sort of thing that the Democrats would cave and they would BELIEVE it when they saw it (which of course wasn't likely)...blah blah.Take to facebook or twitter or you tube... I remember when Our revolution got dreamers to attack Nancy Pelosi...I was earnestly informed that the Democrats couldn't be 'trusted' so who could blame the dreamers...completely sick of it...Be the change you seek. If you think the message isn't getting out then help get it out.

[Squinch]

130. This is ridiculous and childish. You are tired of other things so you are going to lash out at

me because I am stating an undeniable fact.

I guess we should just let ourselves be overrun AGAIN by Russian bots in future elections rather than try to see how it happened and how we can fight it next time. Because you are tired of people who thought Democrats would cave on the shutdown.

Really. Ridiculous.

And PS. I don't need you to tell me to get out there and work for Dems. I'm doing plenty, thanks. That's how I have seen how few people out there actually know what it is we do for them.

[Demsrule86]

140. You posted to me. I am not lashing out period...merely stating my opinion for what is going on in

general. It is what I believe....not about you-...but in general. All this the Dems must get the message out etc...why not take to twitter or other social media and help get the message out instead of sitting on one's hands and complaining that the Democratic leadership isn't doing enough to 'get the message out'? Again not you in particular but a general comment. The fact is we need to unite and forgo 'constructive' criticism until we take back the House and hopefully the Senate. Both will be a heavy lift. The piling on by the right and some on the left against the Democratic Party is self defeating. I saw comments here that were echoed on right wing twitter posts. (No, not saying you,I have read your posts for quite a while...don't always agree but that is no your MO) WE Need to defend our elected and our party from the right...not agree with them! It is like if we see 'both' sides why then we are better people or something. It is not true. Time to recognize the threat and the evil coming from the GOP. Consider that we won by over 10 points in Virginia...and still didn't get the legislature because of the gerrymander. It will be a tough fight in 18 and in 20. Let's unite and fight the GOP not our elected or each other.

[Squinch]

164. You are still missing the point entirely. This has nothing to do with fighting our elected

Last edited Tue Jan 23, 2018, 08:32 AM - Edit history (1)

officials or each other. This has nothing to do with seeing both sides. This has everything to do with defending our elected officials and our party against the right.

I get it, though, that you are not going to see this.

Not going to keep arguing it.

[treestar]

154. You are right, and then the complaints about the corporate donors too

They need the money - the Republicans tend to have more money. Here we see how people who claim they supported with money say they are going to stop over one issue.

[Demsrule86]

161. All the time...the corporate donors were chased off... and it has hurt us.

[dawg day]

75. I heard one of the political pundits say that "shutdown blame" seldom lingers

And that it makes it worthwhile then to accept the risk that you'll get blamed, as long as you're holding out for something important like DACA.

So that's a good thing-- as long as they hold out till they get a DACA fix. If they quit on that now, it will all have been for nothing. But I'm heartened that the politicians do agree that the 700K American kids are definitely worth some risk of blame.

In contrast, the GOP is holding out in sullen fear that the Idiot King might tweet at them.

[Kablooie]

76. Republicans are alway better at messaging because they have major propaganda outlets.

With talk radio and Fox News they dominate national messaging.
Democrats have nothing like it they can compete with.
I blame this as one of the main reasons we are in this mess.
One side having an unrestrained propaganda megaphone makes the playing field totally tilted.

[Squinch]

99. Everyone keeps saying this as if it is the last word. It isn't. Yes, they own the

media. So what are we going to do to get around that? Where is our organized social media presence? Where are our regular staged Congressional events to bring attention to issues? Why, when they go on the Sunday talk shows, do you see republicans on every station pounding on their pet issue of the day in a very, very disciplined way, while we respond with inconsistent and sometimes incoherent replies?

Yes, they own the media. But there is plenty we can do. And the big advantage is that we have facts on our side. We have truth on our side. We are right. It's time we learned how to get that message out there.

[treestar]

155. There is organized social media

Our leaders are more thoughtful and therefore more likely to think and speak their minds than just repeat talking points consistently. You're convinced that most Americans are more susceptible to talking point than thought of any kind. Though I would think if our leaders thought it would work, they could do that. They just don't think that is the way to go, apparently. So how does one convince them to do things the way the Republicans do? It has to be getting closer to them, getting involved somehow. They are not going to read DU and agree with the concept they don't message well enough, especially with no alternatives offered.

[L. Coyote]

92. Trump is right, the President gets blamed. Meanwhile .... some truth in politics from

Andy Borowitz
17 mins ago on Fb

Majority of Americans Plan to Watch Old Obama Videos During State of Union Address

[samnsara]

105. we arent losing. Its more than just Daca..its the fact they cant even come up...

...with a budget!! Anyone who supports this cause is ok with the hold out. We have to STAND STRONG AGAINST TRUMPISM. for our country!!! We are holding out against facism, lack of leadership, general trump ickiness, daca, for AMERICA. This is a strike.

[Motley13]

106. Everyone should have their say, it is only going to get worse

so we need good responses

[Turbineguy]

113. Democrats need to stay on task

and not cave.

[drowefnp]

114. Look out for comments bashing democrats for shutdown

Let us not forget what happened in 2106, Given PR blame game going back and forth, be aware we could have trolls and Russian bots stirring the pot of divisions among democrats so we fight among or selves and take our eyes off of what “45” has done to cause this shutdown mess.

[Mc Mike]

124. Putin's all star repuglinazi trolls are working OT. rec, Nt

[randr]

129. If the "message war" is going to decide important issues we are truely lost

Until twitter and facebook get a handle on the problem the Russians will out spend and out post us all.

[oberliner]

138. What do you feel has the most effective message?

[beachbum bob]

151. propaganda is always used to keep country divided. In the end, who "compromises" first one to blink

is the party tting killed in the polls. The democrats offered "some wall building funds" but were completely turned down by trump...so the game must go on

[Kilgore]

162. According to my Saturday morning coffee group......

A group of us meet Saturday mornings for coffee. All are present and former union mill workers who voted for Trump. Almost all claim to be registered Democrats.

There were two consensus. First, the Democrats caused the shutdown and second was it doesn't matter.

This group is pleased with Trump because since the election, the local mill added a second shift, increased overtime, and a formerly closed production facility has been reopened.

This is what we need to address in 2020. It's what matters to these voters.