General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf you believe the Democrats caved and failed
I'm curious to know what you think could have been done differently.
I've seen a few posts giving compelling reasons for why the outcome of the shutdown has been/will be politically positive for Democrats.
If you disagree, how would you have played it? What do you think Democrats should have done differently?
Don't just say "they shouldn't have trusted McConnell" or "they should have shown more backbone" -- be specific. What could they have done, and what goals could they have achieved if they'd followed your suggestions?
No snark intended or asked for -- I'm genuinely curious.
scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)He will either keep his promise.... in which Dems get a DACA vote on the floor.
Or he won't.... in which Dems get all the leverage to blame the NEXT shutdown completely on McConnell.
Kingofalldems
(38,440 posts)Fatemah2774
(245 posts)Which eliminated one hostage from the GOP from their cruelty
True Blue American
(17,982 posts)Mitch played checkers , Chuck played Chess.
Thedemby
(49 posts)I think you have it exactly. Dems we're already winning the image war over shutdown. Now by showing they, the Dems, are willing to negotiate and be flexible, the onus is on GOP to show they are honest and willing to talk. If not, people will not blame Dems for shut down in February.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)a California one.
I'm from California. The Dreamers are, many of them, in California.
As with the presidential election, it appears that Americans, whether Democrats or Republicans, just don't care about California. We are the 6th largest economy in the world and have over 39 million residents. We are multi-cultural and multiracial, and we all get along. We actually like each other -- in contrast with people in a lot of other states who are racist and sectarian.
But the rest of the country ignores our problems.
Our votes are not counted equally in presidential elections. If they were, Hillary would be president.
And now, our issue -- the Dreamers -- not important enough to shut down the Republican thing that pretends to be a government.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)We do not have the ability to save the Dreamers without GOP votes.
ollie10
(2,091 posts)Salviati
(6,008 posts)The majority of republican voters also support DACA, it's just the hardcore racists and nazis-wannabes that make up their base (and trumps cabinet) that oppose it. If we can convince some of them, then it may have a shot, but we need to bring it to the forefront and make there be a cost for doing nothing on the issue.
ollie10
(2,091 posts)1) DACA will probably not be saved in Senate.
2) Even if it passes Senate, probably not the House.
3) Even if it passes both, probably not Trump.
If they agree to pass it, they will probably throw in the Wall. So either way, the Republicans will have won and we will have lost.
This whole DACA thing was started by Trump ending it. It was always a bargaining chip for them getting something in return for bringing DACA back. Like the wall.
We are so weak, the Rs have to be stunned at their easy victory
murielm99
(30,724 posts)mainly in California? We have many dreamers in Illinois.
Have you ever been to Chicago? There is a multicultural city!
Upthevibe
(8,030 posts)you do, at least to the degree you do. Of course I'm horrified about the Dreamers. And yes, you are absolutely correct that a majority of them live in our state. Both of our Senators, Feinstein and Harris voted no on ending the shutdown without dealing with DACA. dt didn't tweet or say one word about the horrible fires and landslides. He HATES us. However, I think President Obama really liked us. I happen to think we live in the most beautiful and best state in the country (no offense to anyone else)....I was born and raised in Texas but moved to CA when I was 30 and am now 60. I've lived most of my adult life here and am proud to call L.A. my home...
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)They were holding children's healthcare hostage -- potentially life-saving care for many children and important for all the rest -- and now they aren't. They've lost that bargaining tool. So in 3 weeks if they haven't come to an agreement to protect DACA, we'll be in a stronger position than we were -- since we won't be having to fight for DACA and CHIP at the same time.
bigbrother05
(5,995 posts)Yes, we know there are problems there, but in many ways the rest of the country even envies your problems.
While sometimes being the canary in the coal mine, you have stronger laws to protect the environment, your economy is vibrant and diverse, your population is mixed and engaged, and you have representation that actually represents your state and citizens.
Don't think the Dems sacrificed California, but they seem to be trying to do the best in the current situation and are having to play chess with folks who think it's Jenga.
charliea
(260 posts)We can already blame them for allowing CHIP to lapse, stealing a Supreme Court seat, and ruining the CFPB, EPA, Interior, FEMA, and pretty much the rest of government. Democratic Senators still haven't admitted that their belief in a collegial Senate is out of date and the McConnell and the rest of the Republicans are treating them as saps to be rolled.
McConnell has no history of honoring his promises, even to his own party members (looking at you Senator Collins), and little if any honesty.
There was a bipartisan DACA plan. The agreement should, at least, have been to bring that one to the Senate floor first! Let the Republicans show their true colors before the spending plan was voted on, because I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have passed it.
If you have to work with someone untrustworthy, demand payment upfront. This is the lesson of the Trump World.
#RESIST
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)and I quote
How do you do that, isnt that what the dems have been asking for for YEARS?
Do you acknowledge the GOP base is FAR less bothered by a shut down federal government than our base?
imanamerican63
(13,762 posts)but I don't trust the GOP or Trump! They have their ways of lying their way out of things! You make great points to ponder.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,228 posts)Atticus
(15,124 posts)all means let me know and I will stop sullying DU's purity with my occasional departures from the majority view.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,228 posts)split Democrats. Some people work overtime at it, and thankfully I don't have to name names. These divisive tactics were put to expert use in 2016, and they continue to this day.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)GOP victories and misery for us. The lesson of 16 through 18 ...is elections have consequences. And it has turned out better than I expected. How about we turn our attention to getting the GOP out and Dems in office. 18 is less than a year away.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)never voted for anyone not a Democrat, but haven't always been enthused about the Democrat for whom I voted.
I would vote for Manchin, but I would not be proud of it. If we don't occasionally voice our criticism, we should expect more Manchins.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)Atticus
(15,124 posts)using it to continue your lecture on "reality"? I have tried to be patient and respectful but your condescension is getting old.
shenmue
(38,506 posts)Atticus
(15,124 posts)shenmue
(38,506 posts)Atticus
(15,124 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I get called a "rubber stamp Democrat."
TNLib
(1,819 posts)It's a slow process but so far the dems are getting what they want. The GOP is in a no win situation. The best they can hope for is kick the daca can down the road and nobody is going to get a wall.
lapfog_1
(29,194 posts)here is why...
A couple of weeks ago ( right after the release of Fire and Fury ) they had a show meeting at the white house to discuss immigration. The real purpose was to counter the perception that Trump has dementia and can't even pay attention to what is going on around him. In that meeting Trump stated "you all bring me a bi-partisan deal and I will sign it.
Two days later Durbin and Graham went to the White House with a bipartisan deal to partially fund the wall, reduce the immigration lottery by 50%, and end chain migration for which there would be a permanent status for the Dreamers with a path to citizenship.
This deal, should it have been voted on by House and Senate, would pass ( although it might not get 50% of the Republican House votes ) .
The anti-immigrant staff decided to blow up the deal and sandbagged Durbin and Graham by inviting a lot of immigration hard-liners to the meeting... and someone whispered in Trumps ear that "he doesn't really want a bunch of people from "shithole" countries to be immigrants, right" which the Donald, being a 3-year-old and a racist, dutifully repeated in the meeting. Needless to say, the shit hit the fan and the deal died.
The President is not the President. His staff (Kelly and Miller) are acting Presidents because I really believe that Trump is close to a mental breakdown and is suffering from early dementia.
Facing the end of the last CR, the Republicans offered up to fund SCHIP... which they should have funded months ago when it expired... as they have since the inception of the program.
It was for another 4 week CR. What the Democrats and the more moderate Republicans should be complaining about is that the use of CRs to fund things is really quite expensive... it is like buying a new car 1 part at a time from O'Reilly Auto Parts.
So there was a shutdown. Democrats started to fear that they would be blamed ( Republicans are so much better at messaging in little sound bites than Democrats ) .
Will we get the same bi-partisan deal on immigration in 3 weeks... or will there be another showdown? A showdown where it has been proven the Democrats will fold when the Republicans shove all-in.
We may get an immigration bill, but it won't be as good as what Durbin and Graham took to the President a week ago last Thursday,
Cary
(11,746 posts)Have they grown beyond #fakepresident's cult followers? Have they created anything sustainable?
Here's the deal: VOTE DEMOCRATIC in November.
Everything else is just talking in circles.
Vinca
(50,248 posts)old guy
(3,283 posts)many names and being accused of many nefarious acts and schemes, I am on board with your analysis. Thanks you.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)would get blamed...with less than a year from a crucial election...that has to be factored in. We have no power...it is not caving so much as facing reality...we got all we could and got out...we could have lost both DACA and CHIP. Millions of kids are safe now ...really sick kids. I can't be unhappy about that. Our last best chance for DACA was to vote for Hillary Clinton and that is the truth.
Spot on. And thank you for taking the time to lay that out
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)Democrats CARE that a government shut down hurts people, cons dont, dems want the government running because it is the RIGHT thing to do and helps people.
Why would anyone be a Democrat if they didnt believe that?
WHAT would YOU do differently?
Exactly?
lapfog_1
(29,194 posts)I never offered one.
I merely observed ( as a semi-professional poker player ) that the Dems folded. Which, to me, implies that the next time they will be expected by the Republicans to fold again... which means that the DACA deal if offered, it will be less than what they were striving for this time.
I expect no path to citizenship only to some sort of legal status... along with crap like the bill proposed by republicans that would criminalize poverty by the Dreamers ( if they fall below 125% of federal poverty standards they will lose their green cards )
That is IF they get any sort of DACA deal through the Senate ( only a vote was offered ) and by the HOUSE ( which did NOT promise to vote on DACA ) and then signed by the President ( with the same racist assholes surrounding him plus his own racist asshole self )
For those respondents in this sub-thread telling me about the next elections... that's great but as this poster points out, the Democrats actually care about helping people. We may win the next election but 700,000 people that trusted us, who are as American and anyone else here, may well end up fired from their jobs or expelled from school as undocumented and then deported to places they don't know and where they may not even speak the language.
Yes 90% of all Americans want permanent status for Dreamers... but only the Democrats are willing to do something about it. The only power they have is to not vote to end debate on spending bills to get it.
I don't have a solution.
Cheviteau
(383 posts)We Dems had a choice. Keep the shutdown going and take the blame or, save DACA and take the credit. Since 85% of the country wants DACA reinstated, I'd have gone with a longer shutdown, forcing something from the other side. On the other hand, McConnell could have gone shit-house and changed the rule to a 51% majority vote like he did with the stolen SC seat. Yeah, he could have done that and won...with our, shall I say, wishy-washy Demos voting with him.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)somehow worse off because Dems got a six year CHIP extension and kept the government open?
Are you saying that DT would have done a 180, and said that he had been oh so wrong to do that, if Dems had just refused to come to the table this weekend?
lapfog_1
(29,194 posts)and like bullies the world over, when you stand up to them they cave.
Let's put it in a poker player language.
On Friday the Repukes put in a "standard bet" on the river card, SCHIP funding. This isn't even a standard bet but really more of an ante bet because SCHIP shouldn't have even been there in the first place... a lot of Republican governors were begging the Republican controlled congress to fund Children's Health. So they stuck this in the CR bill.
The Democrats raised with a shutdown bet a little after midnight. Schumer tried to give some cover to our Democratic senators from red states by allowing McCaskill to offer up military pay as a must vote now ( without objection ) only Mitch objected thus cutting off military pay ( which then VP Pence tried to blame on Democrats by lying about it )
But, by Monday the red state Democratic Senators panicked and folded to the small re-raise from Mitch "I promise to have a vote on some DACA bill under regular order" but it wasn't a promise for a clean DACA bill, it wasn't a promise to hold a gun to the House and force them to pass whatever the Senate votes on and it wasn't a promise that Trump will sign.
So... small standard bet on the river, Democrats raise almost all in, small re-raise with empty promise, Democrats fold and vote for the CR
Not a good finish to the hand.
Better would have been to go all in and leave the government shutdown. Perhaps that would have stopped Trump from creating a 30% tariff on imported solar panels for a few weeks or months.
And before anyone cries "but what about those poor government workers!" I would like to remind everyone that I was a victim on the longest shutdown on record in 1995... and, as a contractor, I was NOT reimbursed for the missing pay when it was over... I drained my savings and even borrowed from my mother to make it through.
My point is that doing the shutdown is the only play the Democrats HAVE to get anything even close to "bi-partisan" through this fascist government. They should have stuck to their guns and see what a month or two would eventually do to Trump. Maybe the public would blame the Democrats, maybe it would have cost them some more Senate seats... but having voted for a shutdown on Friday only to reopen on Monday with a vague promise of a bill on DACA made the Democrats look weak.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)would have had to deal with.
So far as I see, they lost nothing that they can't get on Feb 8.
lapfog_1
(29,194 posts)getting it on the Monday after was not a "win"
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)In what way is it not a "win?"
It certainly wasn't being offered prior to last week.
lapfog_1
(29,194 posts)The CR passed by the House last week contained, among other things, a 6 year funding for SCHIP.
The same deal that the Democrats voted for on Monday.
The ONLY major difference between Friday and Monday was the promise of the Senate Majority Leader to have a vote on a "comprehensive immigration bill" (not even a clean DACA status bill).
Without the agreement of the White House and House leadership, such a promise could mean almost nothing.
Ask a Dreamer if they feel betrayed today.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dreamers-senate-democrats_us_5a666995e4b002283005d407?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Do you speak for them?
Do you speak also for the people of Puerto Rico, who need every one of the paltry government services left?
I think you need to be checking facts.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/1/22/16920532/shutdown-deal-democrats
Voltaire2
(12,977 posts)So those supporting the result today must logically have opposed the result on Friday.
Gothmog
(145,046 posts)Friday's action were necessary to push this issue and force the Senate republicans to move towards a bi-partisan proposal.
Voltaire2
(12,977 posts)The only difference is a non binding statement from turtle that a daca vote might happen. That is totally within my assertion of nothing material.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.
Must be a Monday thing... they're all over the damn place today.
Voltaire2
(12,977 posts)My position that the set of conditions on Friday are essentially the same as the set of conditions on Monday. If the set of conditions is X, then if the correct response to X on Friday is Y, the correct response to X on Monday is also Y. (Unless of course one wishes to argue that the temporal change is significant, which so far I haven't seen anyone argue)
"after this, therefore because of this" is the fallacy that an event that follows another event is caused by the first event. It might be caused, but that is not proven merely by order in time.
mythology
(9,527 posts)On Friday CHIP wasn't funded. On Friday 2.7 million people were directly not being paid, not to mention all the businesses that rely on those 2.7 million people having jobs. On Friday there was no promise (whether you believe McConnell will allow the vote or not or if you believe it will pass or not)
On Monday, those things all changed.
Fullduplexxx
(7,851 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)They'll tell you what's changed.
Voltaire2
(12,977 posts)ok. Good to know.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)Gothmog
(145,046 posts)I am lawyer and I think that Senator Schumer did a good job here. This is a less than three week delay and now CHIPs is off the table. During the three week period, we will see that the results will be. If the Senate get a bipartisan deal, then Trump will either have to accept it or look like he hates Dreamers.
Getting to a good bi-partisan deal will be a major accomplishment that could not happen during a filibuster. While the polling is mixed now, there was a good risk that a long filibuster would have backfired on the Democrats.
I do not think that there was any caving here and I feel that this was as good as deal as was possible under the circumstances.
The key is that if McConnell or trump block a bi-partisan deal, the Democrats will be in a stronger position to push the issue. There are a good number of swing GOP house seats with meaningful Hispanic voting populations who will be at risk if the GOP block a negotiated bi-partisan senate deal
Cha
(297,029 posts)sheshe2
(83,708 posts)I agree!
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)SharonClark
(10,014 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)Thank you. Democrats saved the day and are seen as dedicated to an outcome that represents the ideals of our country.
Thanks for the realistic analysis.
VOX
(22,976 posts)As you say. Gothmog, this is as good a deal as was possible, given the situation.
Gothmog
(145,046 posts)Such a bill would not be possible during a shutdown. If there is such a bill, then this shutdown and Senator Schumer's strategy would be vindicated
What would happen with an extended shut down doesnt provide good outcomes or good politics. I wish people could continue to acknowledge how very fucked we are with a Republican majority, rather blaming Democrats for something every other day.
Elections have consequences and the Blame-the-Democrats party of people like Greenwald et al are opportunistic pieces of shit.
hueymahl
(2,468 posts)What scares me is our leadership. Will they have guts to stand up for what is right? Or will they fear being "blamed" for the next shutdown.
I used to not have such fears.
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)Gothmog
(145,046 posts)Evidently, the group is meeting in Senator Susan Collins office and are using a talking stick to facilitate negotiations. https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210131982 If there is any sort of bi-partisan bill due to these negotiations, then there will be a ton of pressure on Trump and Ryan to accept such proposal.
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)empty, superficial grandstanding.
still_one
(92,108 posts)was accomplished was that the republicans are now going to be accountable for bringing this up for a vote or not, and this is an issue for the 2018 election
The media and certain groups characterizing the Democrats as caving is meaningless. DACA wasnt going to happen this way.
Perhaps those who cared about this who didnt vote for the Democratic nominee or didnt vote in 2016 will now come out to vote in 2016
iluvtennis
(19,843 posts)...I really think we won't get a DACA vote, I hope I'm wrong for the sake of those young ppl. I wanted the Dems to stand strong and take this to the end. Now, McConnell and Trump get confirmation for their bullying and hard lining tactics.
Dems should have pushed more to fund the military and essential personnel and let the rest as a stalemate. Let the federal employees, and people who want to visit national parks, and have business at federal offices etc force the issue.
In my opinion, we caved too quickly.
TeamPooka
(24,216 posts)way as he defied the US Constitution.
However, this is not about trust, this is about political promises and public stances.
If McConnell doesn't do as he promises then this becomes a much larger issue to the public than it is now.
Either way it is now a key 2018 issue when it was only a Democratic issue last week.
Hostages rarely get released all at once and the GOP are terrorists.
We freed the CHiP kids today and now we have to work to free the DACA kids.
Public pressure, like with healthcare, will get us what we want.
Call every Senator and Congressman you can to demand a resolution for these young men and women.
iluvtennis
(19,843 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)Justice
(7,185 posts)iluvtennis
(19,843 posts)byronius
(7,392 posts)But I trust the leadership in this matter. They've been showing steel backbone.
The horror of this past year seems to have stiffened us all and provided much needed unity. Still going to be a couple of outliers insisting that we drench ourselves in gasoline and torch up in protest.
Cary
(11,746 posts)God forbid they should be constructive.
byronius
(7,392 posts)But the stuff I believe in and care about requires time and compromise and cooperation.
It's a frustrating process to make progress on things that should be self-obvious to any sentient creature, but I'm stuck on a planet where a good percentage of the population believes demonstrably untrue things.
'Be the radical you would have wanted to meet before you became a radical.'
Cary
(11,746 posts)The radicals I have engaged refuse to acknowledge that the only real difference between them and me is one of process.
OriginalGeek
(12,132 posts)until I read some compelling discussion here in several threads. I feel better now.
kentuck
(111,069 posts)Granted that not a lot of concessions were made.
But they got a huge vote which must have surprised the White House? The coalition of about 30 Senators may turn out to be a very important faction? They have a lot of power if they stay united. They could be the power brokers in this broken Administration?
OhioBlue
(5,126 posts)The bipartisan group of over 20 Senators that met for days and rebuilt a camaraderie and collegiality that used to exist in the Senate. I don't know what the many conversations covered, but gleaning from some interviews, it seems that they shared frustration at not being able to discuss and legislate things that almost all of them and the public agree on such as DACA, health market stabilization, back ground checks, bump stocks, etc.
Hopefully they move forward as a powerful bloc and take power away from Trump and McConnell.
bpj62
(999 posts)Look SCHIP is now off the table. The house republicans deliberately refused to fund it last October. I think the problem with DACA comes down to the fact neither the House or the Senate thought that they would have to deal with it. Then Trump threw them a live grenade last September. I think McConnell is hoping that the court rules in favor of DACA so he won't have to schedule a vote. Lastly the Democrats look good because they showed that they can see the bigger picture which Is the midterms. Schumer also got some free shots In on Trump and yoiu know Trump is steaming over that. Because we are the minority we have to play long ball. Just my two cents.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)So sad.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)We can however....make the GOP deal with it again.That is a good thing with less than a year before the election. Personally I would give Trump his damn wall in order to save the DACA kids...but it may be he doesn't really want a wall.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)EllieBC
(3,010 posts)Saying no to CHIP for 6 years for DACA would be a fail too.
Elections have consequences. We are quite sadly in a minority position.
Orrex
(63,185 posts)If Democrats had demanded both CHIP and DACA, they'd have gotten neither, and the GOP and media would absolutely blame Dems for losing both.
Instead, we secured funding for CHIP, and now we can focus our efforts squarely on DACA.
This was as close to an unambiguous win as we could have hoped in the current environment.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)In short, we got what we could given we have no power.
17 days for the great orange Jello to make a fool of himself attempting to get involved in a process that is way over his head. And you know he will, many times over.
17 days for the GOP and Jello to show true colors to the public. Going to be a great show.
elmac
(4,642 posts)we played hardball for a few days but in the end the fascists got their safety net killing budget through with the help of Dems. This will not get people to the polls in Nov.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)mcar
(42,287 posts)so it cannot be played against DACA. We also got a promise for a DACA vote.
Thunderbeast
(3,404 posts)Will Lucy pull the football trick on Charlie Brown again?
I fear so.
If the Republicans were serious, they would not be crowing over their great victory. Maximum humiliation of an opponent is not productive in reaching compromise.
I don't they are capable of respectful debate.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)AllyCat
(16,173 posts)With an agreement to do this. If he doesnt, the media may actually take him to the woodshed for a change.
I think this was a small compromise for reasonable gains. Actually negotiating. Something elected officials used to do.
I like this deal better than a shutdown or no health insurance for kids.
angrychair
(8,685 posts)Given the present outcome I would have voted in favor of the CR on Friday.
First, people keep repeating three things that just are not true:
1.
that would have been just as true if we voted for the CR Friday. The CR period just would have been 7 days longer.
2.
McConnell did no such thing, he promised to allow debate but never said he would allow a vote on anything.
3.
This created animosity where there wasnt any. We had the wind in our sails and many felt emboldened by the show of resolution in the face of the racist and xenophobic majority. Now, many DACA-aligned and even liberal groups do not see this as some masterful stroke but as a slap in the face. We got the government going again but we took a not insignificant political hit for it. I encourage everyone to google shutdown news while some is neutral, most is not. Twitter is all but burning us alive. Yea, maybe it wont matter by November but a lot of that now depends on who blinks as the March deadline approaches.
I believe we overcommitted and if we do not get what we want by Feb 8th does any of us actually think there is any political stomach for two shutdowns in 4 weeks in an election year?
I completely expect the republicans to give us a take it leave it bill that gives DACA kids a pathway to citizenship but with stomach-churning concessions that all but dare Democrats to vote against it. I truly hope Im wrong.
ProfessorGAC
(64,951 posts)A considered opinion for sure, but you make no comment on how you would have gotten more by continuing a standoff that was highly unpopular with the american people.
angrychair
(8,685 posts)I would have kept my powder dry, taken the 4 week CR/CHIP deal and then gone to the DACA or shutdown to push the issue and used the deadline as a taunt on trump to dare him...its a better effect. I do not dispute that we can still taunt trump to let the DACA deadline expire with no action even now but I really dont see a shutdown threat as credible as 2 in four weeks is likely political suicide.
If you want an answer on the actual existing situation, I would have stuck to it and held out...I do believe the republicans would have caved by the end of the week.
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)It was going badly. Schumer recognized this...got what he could and got out.
Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #82)
pscot This message was self-deleted by its author.
old guy
(3,283 posts)Now be prepared to be called any number of vile things.
angrychair
(8,685 posts)I actually hope this ends up working great for us Dems, I really do but history has shown us that is rarely the case.
mountain grammy
(26,605 posts)Both voted for the bill. To the lying snake republican I said you better support DACA in February or pay the price. To senator Bennet I said Im disappointed but understand. I dont approve but you did your best. Ill be calling Gardner daily to remind his lying ass who he works for. #Trumpshutdown
Demsrule86
(68,539 posts)I live in Ohio...don't know if Sherrod voted for it or not...he is up for re-election in Ohio so he might have. I am sure that ass Portman did.
mcar
(42,287 posts)Justice
(7,185 posts)MelissaB
(16,420 posts)Bigger fish to fry and all...
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)yet another layer of hardship and lack of services with a shutdown.
I'm glad that parents of kids on CHIP didn't have to spend another sleepless night wondering if they were going to have to choose between their children's health care and paying rent.
Gothmog
(145,046 posts)Cha
(297,029 posts)uponit7771
(90,323 posts)Gothmog
(145,046 posts)The democrats made good use of the bargaining chips available to them
Tarheel_Dem
(31,228 posts)narrative. And we know what their objective is.
Gothmog
(145,046 posts)I really do not care sbout that group.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)about the dems deal, so if such a thing gets posted, be sure to let me know, thanks.
I have seen excellent Re-framing of what WE want in several places, something a famous politician is known to do often, but so far not a single suggestion of what to do differently to get us what WE want.
TheSocialDem
(191 posts)krawhitham
(4,641 posts)It is all about optics
GOP kept claiming we liked everything in the bill and we had no reason to vote against WHAT WAS IN THE BILL. That made us look bad
House GOP attached 3 ACA tax delays to the bill because it was the only way they could get their own to vote for CHIP, this got little press
We should have demanded these (suspended medical device tax 2 years, suspended cadillac tax 2 years, & suspended health insurer tax 1 year) be removed, because it is just the GOP trying to dismantle the ACA brick by brick. Even use their own language about has not to do with the CR like they did about DACA. Once removed the House would no longer be able to pass the CHIP extension. With the GOP's CHiP leverage gone we would not longer look like bastards and could have held out long for real DACA help
PatrickforO
(14,566 posts)That was great.
AND, they got McTurtle to PUBLICLY agree to a floor vote on a DACA bill, which some of the Republicans want, as well.
We didn't lose at all with this move, and actually came out looking like the good guys.
I don't see much downside, and no I don't drink a lot of Kool Aid - it's just that I believe this was a good political move on the part of the Dem leadership in Congress.
6 years of CHIP!
krawhitham
(4,641 posts)CHIP was in the bill on Friday
Turtle has already promised a DACA vote before the end of January
We got nothing
mcar
(42,287 posts)We got Turtle to publicly agree to a DACA vote. People aren't going to pay attention to the nuance. McConnell promised, there is a bipartisan bill in the Senate. It will pass if its brought to the floor.?
Then its all on Ryan's shoulders.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Guaranteed
Ryan will never bring anything to a vote. He's got a shitload of tea party lunatics who wet themselves at every horrific airport family deportation news story. He'll NEVER cross those shitheads.
Face it. The Dreamers are going to be deported in droves. The R base will lap it alllll up
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Military budget increases they wanted on Friday? Youre not really good at this second guessing thing- claiming we should have taken a worse deal.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)The Rs decision to give on the wall and military $$ on Friday means nothing since they know Trump is capricious. I dont gaf about Trumps demands anymore, its now obvious to us he's irrelevant. That fact had to have been known months, if not a year, ago.
Schumer knows all of this. His decision to trust McConnell is ridiculous since McConnell has even double-crossed members of his own party (Collins and Flake)
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)A different deal- you know that yet will not admit it because it doesnt bolster your narrative.... the narrative being Dems suck. Got it.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Fuck that
Leftofinsane
(14 posts)Does Paul Ryan guarantee a vote in the house?
orangecrush
(19,492 posts)It was handled quite well, imo.
samnsara
(17,613 posts)...well the GOP does...but they are evil anyway. I think this shutdown really brought the plight of the Dreamers into the public eye and the consciousness.. and shows the CRs are a joke. I bet most people never really knew how all this works ( I know I don't!) and watching this all play out is very educational. We all knew the evil GOP would have burned the country down before they gave an inch but now they are on record...they made a promise and if they welch we will bring them down.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I had the same question. It seems that people want to criticize and second guess based on wouldashouldacouldas but haven't walked through the real-life scenarios.
Gothmog
(145,046 posts)Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)I like your scenario much better Gothmog!
#resist
Gothmog
(145,046 posts)I really am comfortable with the deal struck by Senator Schumer
True Blue American
(17,982 posts)Schumer just proved how smart he is at negotiating.
BTW, where is Trump? No strolls to the helicopter, posturing before the Press.
Gothmog
(145,046 posts)When trump is wearing his MAGA cap, it is clear that his hair is not done
Arazi
(6,829 posts)The R messaging that they triumphed, that the Schumer Shutdown was an abject failure, that Dems are dupes is working out here in the real world. A significant sense of momentum was punctured here.
This feels like a massive sell out of Dreamers because the Rs and the WH, especially the WH, cant wait to deport them. Their base is salivating out there about this. You know that. The Rs just got a massive shot of energy.
Both those facts are troublesome.
CHIP was already in the Friday bill - we didn't "win" that. Rs had already given that up.
Lastly, Ryan has already signaled, even before the vote, that he's not going to bring a DACA bill up in the House. McConnell's "promise" is vague - he's agreed to a debate, not to a vote. Face it, our best chance to save DACA was to stand strong now.
Three weeks of R marketing on "illegals are criminals", a laser focus on turning any future bill into an immigration monstrosity that Dems will find extremely difficult (impossible?) to vote for. I dunno. I just know this is going to end in tears for us.
So what I would have done?
1. Keep pounding that Trump needed to say what he would accept on DACA (bottom line he wants deportation but he nor the Rs could say that w 87% of Americans wanting them to stay).
2. Hold firm.
3. Keep bringing up resolutions to fund the military and show the public how many times the Rs say "no way".
Tarheel_Dem
(31,228 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,228 posts)flying-skeleton
(696 posts)There is ZERO Commitment from the House to bring up ANY Senate DACA amendment for a vote.
So in effect McConnell's promise has no teeth.
highplainsdem
(48,956 posts)Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)They called attention to the actions of the racist-in-chief and his enablers. Leaving the government shut was never a goal of Democrats.
The voters (and Trump's collusion with Putin) left Democrats with no levers of power. They've done well so far.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Now perhaps we can get into good-faith (lol) negotiations on money for increased border security of some type in exchange for a deal on the Dreamers. That's the sort of deal-making that's REASONABLE ... it's all one 'subject' i.e. immigration, there's just two sides to it.
No longer will the GOP be able to hold the 'illegals more important than american kids' bullshit over our heads at least. Which was a dirty rotten trick they should never even gotten away with but of course Dems lack messaging skills and teh damn corporate media SUCKS GOP dong all day long outside of a few commentary shows ... so they were able to put it across to enough people that Dems were making this 'choice'. WE all know that really the GOP is in charge and has known they needed to handle the CHIP funding situation for months and months, but ... Dems failed to capture teh zeitgeist, as usual.
Honestly really wish Obama or Hillary would've really gotten out there and pimped what a BS trick this was by the GOP. We need them back acting as statesmen. And someone stronger needs to be running the DNC.
Of course, scumbags that Munster and Turtle are, they'll find something else next time to leverage in this same fashion.
MrPurple
(985 posts)The Democrats were able to insert a bookmark in the public's brain about DACA being extended, which makes it more likely to happen. They got CHiP extended and were able to get a few Republicans to vote with them and fvck up Trump's 100K a plate anniversary party.
It's a positive, but a small one. It will get lost in the shuffle pretty quickly.
Nitram
(22,776 posts)Trumpistan has no place to go but down this time around.
certainot
(9,090 posts)the immigration issue was used to sell voter suppression and the wall was part of that and with trump it's all nothing but talk radio with a little fox
it's fucking ridiculous that the democrats continue to ignore talk radio - the wall is a bargaining point for republicans and without 1200 unchallenged talk radio stations it would be a joke.
this whole alternate reality of insane made to order teabag constituencies is all because dems and liberals give talk radio a free speech free ride.
lamp_shade
(14,824 posts)I have a much better understanding now of why in fact Schumer didn't "cave".
mfcorey1
(11,001 posts)the voices that make CHIP seem like nothing.The repubs know we will bring the fight for DACA. Yes, they caved to the health and well being of so many children.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And continue to do what McCaskill did with offering amendment to pay service members fully during shutdown.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Full of things the Democrats cannot support. McConnell is a snake who cannot be trusted.
From here on out, Democrats have to act as if the GOP are bad, untrustworthy actors, which they are. In addition, they need to start hammering the Republicans in the media. You can see that the Democrats are getting the blame for the shutdown. Trump is crowing that this is a victory for him, when he is the one who caused this mess in the first, by listening to monsters like Miller.
Efilroft Sul
(3,578 posts)"They [the Democratic leaders] caved in early September, but promised to use their leverage in early December. They caved in early December, but promised to use their leverage by the end of the year. They caved at the end of the year, but they promised to use their leverage in January. And now they caved again, but promised to use their leverage in February. Democrats clearly want to keep Dreamers as a talking point, but they need to grow a spine and actually fight for the Dream Act."
Schumer et al have caved so much on the Dreamers that they've got honorary lifetime passes to Carlsbad Caverns.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)Respect.
No preaching;
No claims of victory for achieving something we would have achieved even without the shutdown;
No treating people who disagree with you like they are politically naïve;
A simple and honest question;
An absolute joy to read.
What would I have done differently?
First, unless we intended to fight to the death, we should have never tied DACA to the CR. Immigrants from Central and South America and the citizen descendants of those who immigrated from there since the end of WWII are the single most important demographic group to the future of the Democratic Party. They may not vote Democratic with the consistency of people in my community, but their numbers are so much greater than ours that they hold our party's future in their hands. Many in that community were already suspicious of the party because the only immigrants our party seems to publicly embrace are the 800,000 or so high-achieving "Dreamers" (in other words, the kind of immigrants white folks like) and not the 9 million other immigrants who have come to this country to feed their families, to work hard, to escape the violence and oppression in the nations of their birth, and, yes, to drink and drive, to commit crimes, and all the other things that any other community does. Nonetheless, they clung to DACA as a symbol of good faith, particularly after Obama went out on a political and constitutional limb to enforce it through executive order. To them it wasn't a bargaining chip. Their mothers, their fathers, their children weren't bargaining chips. If that is all they were to the party leadership, the leadership should have found another chip.
Second, once we did tie DACA to the CR, we needed to aggressively push the message that the CR could be passed with ONLY Republican votes. Before a single vote was cast last Friday, our leadership should have been on every news show talking about how the GOP has been willing to cast aside the 60-vote requirement over and over for things they really want and the fact that they hadn't done it for the CR shows that either they really didn't care about keeping the government open OR that they were keeping it in place SOLELY to humiliate Democrats by forcing them to join Trump in order to keep the Government running. Our message should have been, "The Republicans are shutting down the government for no other reason than to force Democrats to join Trump in his childish and destructive crusade to destroy every one of Obama's signature achievements." Instead, we stuck with the failed triangulation politics of the post-1992 party and tried to split off Republican females by focusing on "the children" (both CHIP and DACA) and, not surprisingly, failed again.
Third, after our triangulation scheme failed, we should have dropped all demands, said "It's your CR, pass it" and publicly stated that we had released our caucus to vote their conscience. Doug, Claire, Heidi, Joe and the others who don't think they can win without Trumpsters - and maybe can't - (aside, Claire is going to get beat like a drum unless she goes crawling to the black community she abandoned after Ferguson, but that is a different subject entirely) could give them enough votes to get them close enough to 60 that the GOP's own caucus could put them over the top. That way, if the CR didn't pass, the blame would either fall on Rand Paul et al. OR on the House GOP for sending over such an unprincipled and cruel CR in the first place AND our blue dogs would be able to run to the GOP's right on this issue in the next election (two for the price of one).
Fourth, and I know this happened after your post, but we need to put a gag on the centrist Democrats who are going from talk show to talk show (e.g. Chris Coons on MSNBC this morning) attacking Democrats who voted against this surrender as politically naïve and more interested in their own political futures than making the country work AND other self-proclaimed "loyal Democrats" who are doing the same to anyone who dares condemn what Schumer did in chat rooms and on message boards. Right now (and it will be even worse in three weeks when we "compromise" on some "DACA-light" with no path to citizenship and streamlined deportations for the 9 million other immigrants, if we can get even that past the House and/or cave on the CR again) we will get garbage turnouts from the citizen descendants of our Central and South American brothers and sisters - just like we got miserable turnout from my community after our party went silent on the blue on black murder and criminal justice reform to undue the 1994 Violent Crime Act after the convention - and it will cost us ANOTHER election. Demeaning the concerns, political awareness, and intelligence of those groups, who already feel abandoned, and the handful of politicians standing up from them is beyond arrogance. It is political suicide.
Once again, thank you for offering to listen. Sometimes I am amazed at how great the admins can be here.
EarlG
(21,939 posts)I think you bring up some good points. I do believe that what just happened is not the end of the fight over DACA, but the beginning. We shall see how this plays out over the next few weeks...
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)The fight for DACA is far from over.
What's more, if recent victories in Alabama and Wisconsin are any indication, we will be having that fight when WE are in control of the House of Representatives, if not sooner!
Snackshack
(2,541 posts)"A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so."...
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)they're not just Republicans.
There are plenty of people ready at a moments notice to get outraged, because, you know... ESTABLISHMENT anything is BAD and needs to go!!!! There are OPs to that effect on DU right now now.
No matter how much actual progressive legislation has been accomplished by that leadership, it seems who ever yells and complains the loudest is the "most progressive," and if you are yelling and complaining about the "failure" of actual progressive leadership, that must mean you are super-uber-duper progressive and therefore yours is the standard by which all opinions of "establishment" are judged. Armchair quarterbacking at it's most tiresome.
Sort of like the person who says that they don't see what's so great about Meryl Streep's performances, because that makes them feel (and sound) like their standards and eye for real talent are so much higher than the sheeple who just have no real understanding of the art.
marble falls
(57,055 posts)stonecutter357
(12,694 posts)mvd
(65,169 posts)I don't trust McConnell either, but we got CHIP done and we should be even better now in the eyes of the public. I think we should shut it down for a long time next time if no DACA vote. I object to wall funding, but it really can't be built anyway. It just diverts funds from productive things.
BobTheSubgenius
(11,562 posts)...something gained, nothing irrevocably lost. The D's delivered nothing like a knockout blow, clearly, but is it not at least a split decision on points?
pwb
(11,258 posts)With continuing resolutions issues can be held hostage. With a budget in place they can then tend to issues like DACA as a separate and regular bill. Clean. A budget would stop all the we don't support the military, and we support terrorists bullshit. A BUDGET. We have not had one in years and now is the perfect time for all of us to say why not with all branches of government in GOP control.