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EarlG

(21,939 posts)
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 05:02 PM Jan 2018

If you believe the Democrats caved and failed

I'm curious to know what you think could have been done differently.

I've seen a few posts giving compelling reasons for why the outcome of the shutdown has been/will be politically positive for Democrats.

If you disagree, how would you have played it? What do you think Democrats should have done differently?

Don't just say "they shouldn't have trusted McConnell" or "they should have shown more backbone" -- be specific. What could they have done, and what goals could they have achieved if they'd followed your suggestions?

No snark intended or asked for -- I'm genuinely curious.

170 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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If you believe the Democrats caved and failed (Original Post) EarlG Jan 2018 OP
"Trusting" McConnell ... or not ....is immaterial and besides the point scheming daemons Jan 2018 #1
Yes. Kingofalldems Jan 2018 #4
And we have CHIP for 6 years Fatemah2774 Jan 2018 #131
Thank you! True Blue American Jan 2018 #145
Spot On Thedemby Jan 2018 #25
Democrats are flexible and willing to compromise when the issue is mostly Sophia4 Jan 2018 #68
There are dreamers everywhere. I care deeply. But we don't have the levers of power. Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #78
if that is the case, why did we shut it down in the first place? ollie10 Jan 2018 #84
Because maybe we can convince some of them to stop listening to their hardcore base Salviati Jan 2018 #95
We lost ollie10 Jan 2018 #149
How can you say dreamers are murielm99 Jan 2018 #114
I'm a Californian too but I don't necessarily feel the same way Upthevibe Jan 2018 #126
I don't think that was behind Schumer's thought process. I think he was taking this step by step. pnwmom Jan 2018 #132
California is still seen as something of a dream land bigbrother05 Jan 2018 #136
He's already shown he's untrustworthy charliea Jan 2018 #28
And how would that happen? How is the question not what. Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #45
Yes please explain HOW you Eliot Rosewater Jan 2018 #52
I don't know if there was anything different... imanamerican63 Jan 2018 #2
I'm curious to know why they would still be here, and allowed to trash Dems ad nauseum? Tarheel_Dem Jan 2018 #3
Is this a "rubber stamps only" board? I've never found it to be. If something has changed, by Atticus Jan 2018 #16
Let's face it, events like these are just perfect for those whose only mission here seems to be to.. Tarheel_Dem Jan 2018 #19
I don't really disagree with a thing you just posted. nt Atticus Jan 2018 #21
We support Democrats here...but what is the point of trashing Democrats...all it has brought is Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #46
I don't equate expressing disappointment and criticism with "trashing" Democrats. I've Atticus Jan 2018 #72
It drives voters away. Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #79
Any authority for that? Or, is it just something you feel to be true and so you are Atticus Jan 2018 #90
WE SAVED NINE MILLION KIDS. Not good enough for you? shenmue Jan 2018 #101
I guess that's about as rational and accurate a response as I can expect. Have a swell evening. nt Atticus Jan 2018 #105
It is accurate and rational. Ride off on your purity pony. shenmue Jan 2018 #107
No one here claiming purity---just the right not to applaud. nt Atticus Jan 2018 #111
I think the inverse is also true, but when I try to express that ehrnst Jan 2018 #146
It's like the Dems are bleeding the GOP by paper cuts TNLib Jan 2018 #5
Caved with the potential for failure lapfog_1 Jan 2018 #6
Has anything worked for Republicans? Cary Jan 2018 #17
Then we need to get many more Democrats elected so we can have what we want. Vinca Jan 2018 #20
At the extreme risk of being called old guy Jan 2018 #38
Again not how...do we change this...We can't- shutting down the government is unpopular and we Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #50
+1 leftstreet Jan 2018 #54
I dont see any ANSWERS as to what to do in your post. And I disagree STRONGLY with one thing Eliot Rosewater Jan 2018 #58
I don't have an answer. lapfog_1 Jan 2018 #125
The Situation As I See It. Cheviteau Jan 2018 #165
How is the bipartisan agreement that Durbin and Graham had, which DT pissed all over ehrnst Jan 2018 #148
I think DT is a poor bully lapfog_1 Jan 2018 #153
Imagine what the parents of the kids on CHIP and the people of Puerto Rico ehrnst Jan 2018 #154
the republicans offered the deal on SCHIP before the shutdown lapfog_1 Jan 2018 #162
So you think it wasn't a win? Nor was keeping the goverment open? ehrnst Jan 2018 #163
better check your facts lapfog_1 Jan 2018 #164
Are you a Dreamer? ehrnst Jan 2018 #169
Nothing material changed from Friday to Monday. Voltaire2 Jan 2018 #7
Not at all Gothmog Jan 2018 #9
There was no movement. Voltaire2 Jan 2018 #10
Agree. nt Atticus Jan 2018 #24
Post hoc ergo prompter hoc... LanternWaste Jan 2018 #12
err, if you are referring to my position that is not correct. Voltaire2 Jan 2018 #26
Then your position is objectively wrong mythology Jan 2018 #133
Propter no m. ... prompter is one who promts Fullduplexxx Jan 2018 #137
Ask any parent of a kid who is on CHIP. ehrnst Jan 2018 #31
so the friday vote was just "theater" then. Voltaire2 Jan 2018 #34
Care to clarify? (nt) ehrnst Jan 2018 #64
You are offering zip as to what TO do. Eliot Rosewater Jan 2018 #60
Given the rules, this was as good of an outcome as was possible Gothmog Jan 2018 #8
Mahalo for your analysis, Goth Cha Jan 2018 #13
Thank you... sheshe2 Jan 2018 #27
+1000. (nt) ehrnst Jan 2018 #32
Agree 100% SharonClark Jan 2018 #49
I completely agree Goth. Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #51
Well said. mia Jan 2018 #87
+1000! mcar Jan 2018 #91
Nicely stated truth. Democrats simply don't have a lot of leverage right now. VOX Jan 2018 #106
I am rooting for Senator Durbin, Graham and Collins to come up with bi-partisan bill Gothmog Jan 2018 #168
Yup ismnotwasm Jan 2018 #113
I agree with your analysis hueymahl Jan 2018 #157
You always nail it, Gothmog. We are lucky to have you here. R B Garr Jan 2018 #166
I am enjoying the stories about the bi-partisan group meeting on this issue Gothmog Jan 2018 #167
+++ yes! it is good to see anyone cut into the Trump/Ryan R B Garr Jan 2018 #170
Excellent points Earl. DACA wasnt going to happen because of the shutdown. However what still_one Jan 2018 #11
I know you didn't want this answer, but I DON'T TRUST MCCONNELL and the rethugs... iluvtennis Jan 2018 #14
No one should ever trust McConnell. This is the guy who stole a Supreme Court seat, smiling all the TeamPooka Jan 2018 #29
I like your analogy that we freed the CHIP kids...now it's on to the DACA kids. iluvtennis Jan 2018 #98
Why should we risk 18 for something that won't happen? How would you have made it happen? Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #53
who said anything about trusting McConnell? Justice Jan 2018 #142
It was in the initial statement by the DUer that started this thread iluvtennis Jan 2018 #152
Complex maneuverings at the centers of power are easy targets for armchair quarterbacking. byronius Jan 2018 #15
Yea. Radicals will be radical Cary Jan 2018 #23
Funny thing, I consider myself quite the radical. byronius Jan 2018 #33
I hear you Cary Jan 2018 #37
I admit I was not too sure of the deal OriginalGeek Jan 2018 #18
I think it turned out pretty good. kentuck Jan 2018 #22
I think that is a key component that isn't being talked about enough OhioBlue Jan 2018 #119
McConnell blinked bpj62 Jan 2018 #30
And Trump missed his party Generic Other Jan 2018 #120
How about, 'vote no.'? n/t X_Digger Jan 2018 #35
And lose CHIP and DACA. We were never getting DACA by shutting down the government. Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #55
So what did we get? A McTurtle promise. Fucking worthless. n/t X_Digger Jan 2018 #65
We got CHIP. EllieBC Jan 2018 #77
That point can't be made often enough Orrex Jan 2018 #134
We got Chip and another chance at DACA...and to run Trump's nose in it and wreck his little party... Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #81
Great! Thedemby Jan 2018 #36
got to keep what little bargaining chips we have elmac Jan 2018 #39
It is a CR...not a budget. Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #56
We got them to release one of the hostages (CHIP) mcar Jan 2018 #92
It is all based on "HOPE" and trust Thunderbeast Jan 2018 #40
I don't disagree but since we don't have the House, the Senate or the presidency...what could we do? Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #57
McConnell is untrustworthy. But he is now on record AllyCat Jan 2018 #41
Given this outcome angrychair Jan 2018 #42
There's No How In Your Statement, AC ProfessorGAC Jan 2018 #62
The point is angrychair Jan 2018 #67
They were not going to cave...it was DACA against CHIP...'illegals against America's kids"... Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #82
This message was self-deleted by its author pscot Jan 2018 #85
Yes. I believe you are correct. old guy Jan 2018 #66
I dont mind angrychair Jan 2018 #69
So I wrote to both my senators mountain grammy Jan 2018 #43
Good for you...I should do that...very clever. Demsrule86 Jan 2018 #59
Good idea! mcar Jan 2018 #93
Excellent. Justice Jan 2018 #143
I lulz'd KG Jan 2018 #44
I think they caved early, but while a Russian asset is in the WH I won't ride their ass hard. MelissaB Jan 2018 #47
I'm glad that the gov't employees (and citizens) in Puerto Rico didn't have to endure ehrnst Jan 2018 #48
From Ezra Klein Gothmog Jan 2018 #61
Thanks Goth! Cha Jan 2018 #74
Right !! If they use shut down leverage and bang the "THEY CHEATED" drum then they're good uponit7771 Jan 2018 #89
The number of negotiating chips here were limited Gothmog Jan 2018 #100
That's fine, but it doesn't satisfy the "Our Revolution" nuts who peddle the "Dems Caved".... Tarheel_Dem Jan 2018 #103
That group is not a group who I give darn about Gothmog Jan 2018 #116
I have not seen a SINGLE suggestion of what to do as to your question by those angry Eliot Rosewater Jan 2018 #63
Make mcturtle go nuclear TheSocialDem Jan 2018 #140
Should have railed against the TAX CUTS in the CR krawhitham Jan 2018 #70
They got the GOP crazies to concede 6 years of funding for CHIP. PatrickforO Jan 2018 #71
We had that before the shutdown krawhitham Jan 2018 #73
We got them to release one of the hostages (CHIP) mcar Jan 2018 #94
Whatever the Senate Rs bring will be a toxic disaster Arazi Jan 2018 #109
Do you think no matter what we wont get DACA and yet we should have given in to the wall and bettyellen Jan 2018 #121
We wont get DACA. Because we caved and because #PresidentStephenMiller Arazi Jan 2018 #122
LOL- so lets discount that the GOP wants anything at all? Not playing that stupid game. Friday was bettyellen Jan 2018 #123
I'm a loyal Dem. Got more smears? Arazi Jan 2018 #124
McConnell guarantees a vote in the senate Leftofinsane Jan 2018 #75
Kick and Rec orangecrush Jan 2018 #76
i think the Dems did a great job. No one wants to tear the country apart... samnsara Jan 2018 #80
I didn't see your post before I posted mine EffieBlack Jan 2018 #83
From Prof. Krugman Gothmog Jan 2018 #86
After reading so many negative ops Heartstrings Jan 2018 #96
I am deal attorney and so I understand the concept of negotiation Gothmog Jan 2018 #99
I am,too! True Blue American Jan 2018 #147
The person who does his hair was not available and so he was in hiding Gothmog Jan 2018 #156
I believe the Dem leadership lost credibility and faith with a significant portion of the Dem base Arazi Jan 2018 #88
Obviously, you're not a furloughed federal worker, or a CHIP recipient. Tarheel_Dem Jan 2018 #104
Privilege has its privileges EffieBlack Jan 2018 #117
It certainly does. Tarheel_Dem Jan 2018 #127
FAILED flying-skeleton Jan 2018 #97
This was NOT a failure, for the reasons Krugman cited (see reply 86 for his tweets). highplainsdem Jan 2018 #102
I don't believe Democrats caved. Progressive dog Jan 2018 #108
If CHIP is funded I think that's good. It never should've been 'part of this' ... mr_lebowski Jan 2018 #110
This one day shutdown will be quickly forgotten amid the continuous Trump insanity cycle MrPurple Jan 2018 #112
I agree. The Dems played this brilliantly. Nitram Jan 2018 #115
what i would have done differently applies to all dem vs republican politics. certainot Jan 2018 #118
Thanks, EarlG for starting this very educational thread. lamp_shade Jan 2018 #128
CHIP saved, now on to DACA. We have to stop agreeing with mfcorey1 Jan 2018 #129
No deal until the bipartisan DACA bill is put up for a vote oberliner Jan 2018 #130
Any so-called DACA bill will be a poison pill. alarimer Jan 2018 #135
Consider this quote by Ezra Levin of Indivisible Efilroft Sul Jan 2018 #138
Number One Post-Shutdown post right here and from an administrator no less GaryCnf Jan 2018 #139
Thank you for the thoughtful response EarlG Jan 2018 #155
You could not be more correct GaryCnf Jan 2018 #161
This... Snackshack Jan 2018 #141
There are those who benefit from Democratic leadership being trashed for whatever they do, and ehrnst Jan 2018 #144
We got the best we could under the circumstances: one being why haven't we taken back Congress? marble falls Jan 2018 #150
K&R stonecutter357 Jan 2018 #151
I believe we should see how the February deadline goes mvd Jan 2018 #158
As I understand it... BobTheSubgenius Jan 2018 #159
The solution is a real yearly budget. No more continuing resolutions. pwb Jan 2018 #160
 

scheming daemons

(25,487 posts)
1. "Trusting" McConnell ... or not ....is immaterial and besides the point
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 05:05 PM
Jan 2018

He will either keep his promise.... in which Dems get a DACA vote on the floor.

Or he won't.... in which Dems get all the leverage to blame the NEXT shutdown completely on McConnell.


Thedemby

(49 posts)
25. Spot On
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:36 PM
Jan 2018

I think you have it exactly. Dems we're already winning the image war over shutdown. Now by showing they, the Dems, are willing to negotiate and be flexible, the onus is on GOP to show they are honest and willing to talk. If not, people will not blame Dems for shut down in February.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
68. Democrats are flexible and willing to compromise when the issue is mostly
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:45 PM
Jan 2018

a California one.

I'm from California. The Dreamers are, many of them, in California.

As with the presidential election, it appears that Americans, whether Democrats or Republicans, just don't care about California. We are the 6th largest economy in the world and have over 39 million residents. We are multi-cultural and multiracial, and we all get along. We actually like each other -- in contrast with people in a lot of other states who are racist and sectarian.

But the rest of the country ignores our problems.

Our votes are not counted equally in presidential elections. If they were, Hillary would be president.

And now, our issue -- the Dreamers -- not important enough to shut down the Republican thing that pretends to be a government.

Demsrule86

(68,539 posts)
78. There are dreamers everywhere. I care deeply. But we don't have the levers of power.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:04 PM
Jan 2018

We do not have the ability to save the Dreamers without GOP votes.

Salviati

(6,008 posts)
95. Because maybe we can convince some of them to stop listening to their hardcore base
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:53 PM
Jan 2018

The majority of republican voters also support DACA, it's just the hardcore racists and nazis-wannabes that make up their base (and trumps cabinet) that oppose it. If we can convince some of them, then it may have a shot, but we need to bring it to the forefront and make there be a cost for doing nothing on the issue.

 

ollie10

(2,091 posts)
149. We lost
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 11:38 AM
Jan 2018

1) DACA will probably not be saved in Senate.
2) Even if it passes Senate, probably not the House.
3) Even if it passes both, probably not Trump.

If they agree to pass it, they will probably throw in the Wall. So either way, the Republicans will have won and we will have lost.

This whole DACA thing was started by Trump ending it. It was always a bargaining chip for them getting something in return for bringing DACA back. Like the wall.

We are so weak, the Rs have to be stunned at their easy victory

murielm99

(30,724 posts)
114. How can you say dreamers are
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 10:33 PM
Jan 2018

mainly in California? We have many dreamers in Illinois.

Have you ever been to Chicago? There is a multicultural city!

Upthevibe

(8,030 posts)
126. I'm a Californian too but I don't necessarily feel the same way
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 02:39 AM
Jan 2018

you do, at least to the degree you do. Of course I'm horrified about the Dreamers. And yes, you are absolutely correct that a majority of them live in our state. Both of our Senators, Feinstein and Harris voted no on ending the shutdown without dealing with DACA. dt didn't tweet or say one word about the horrible fires and landslides. He HATES us. However, I think President Obama really liked us. I happen to think we live in the most beautiful and best state in the country (no offense to anyone else)....I was born and raised in Texas but moved to CA when I was 30 and am now 60. I've lived most of my adult life here and am proud to call L.A. my home...

pnwmom

(108,973 posts)
132. I don't think that was behind Schumer's thought process. I think he was taking this step by step.
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 09:01 AM
Jan 2018

They were holding children's healthcare hostage -- potentially life-saving care for many children and important for all the rest -- and now they aren't. They've lost that bargaining tool. So in 3 weeks if they haven't come to an agreement to protect DACA, we'll be in a stronger position than we were -- since we won't be having to fight for DACA and CHIP at the same time.

bigbrother05

(5,995 posts)
136. California is still seen as something of a dream land
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 10:00 AM
Jan 2018

Yes, we know there are problems there, but in many ways the rest of the country even envies your problems.

While sometimes being the canary in the coal mine, you have stronger laws to protect the environment, your economy is vibrant and diverse, your population is mixed and engaged, and you have representation that actually represents your state and citizens.

Don't think the Dems sacrificed California, but they seem to be trying to do the best in the current situation and are having to play chess with folks who think it's Jenga.

charliea

(260 posts)
28. He's already shown he's untrustworthy
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:45 PM
Jan 2018

We can already blame them for allowing CHIP to lapse, stealing a Supreme Court seat, and ruining the CFPB, EPA, Interior, FEMA, and pretty much the rest of government. Democratic Senators still haven't admitted that their belief in a collegial Senate is out of date and the McConnell and the rest of the Republicans are treating them as saps to be rolled.

McConnell has no history of honoring his promises, even to his own party members (looking at you Senator Collins), and little if any honesty.

There was a bipartisan DACA plan. The agreement should, at least, have been to bring that one to the Senate floor first! Let the Republicans show their true colors before the spending plan was voted on, because I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have passed it.

If you have to work with someone untrustworthy, demand payment upfront. This is the lesson of the Trump World.


#RESIST


Eliot Rosewater

(31,109 posts)
52. Yes please explain HOW you
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:18 PM
Jan 2018

and I quote

"There was a bipartisan DACA plan. The agreement should, at least, have been to bring that one to the Senate floor first! "


How do you do that, isnt that what the dems have been asking for for YEARS?

Do you acknowledge the GOP base is FAR less bothered by a shut down federal government than our base?

imanamerican63

(13,762 posts)
2. I don't know if there was anything different...
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 05:05 PM
Jan 2018

but I don't trust the GOP or Trump! They have their ways of lying their way out of things! You make great points to ponder.

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
16. Is this a "rubber stamps only" board? I've never found it to be. If something has changed, by
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:06 PM
Jan 2018

all means let me know and I will stop sullying DU's purity with my occasional departures from the majority view.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,228 posts)
19. Let's face it, events like these are just perfect for those whose only mission here seems to be to..
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:13 PM
Jan 2018

split Democrats. Some people work overtime at it, and thankfully I don't have to name names. These divisive tactics were put to expert use in 2016, and they continue to this day.

Demsrule86

(68,539 posts)
46. We support Democrats here...but what is the point of trashing Democrats...all it has brought is
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:13 PM
Jan 2018

GOP victories and misery for us. The lesson of 16 through 18 ...is elections have consequences. And it has turned out better than I expected. How about we turn our attention to getting the GOP out and Dems in office. 18 is less than a year away.

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
72. I don't equate expressing disappointment and criticism with "trashing" Democrats. I've
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:50 PM
Jan 2018

never voted for anyone not a Democrat, but haven't always been enthused about the Democrat for whom I voted.

I would vote for Manchin, but I would not be proud of it. If we don't occasionally voice our criticism, we should expect more Manchins.

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
90. Any authority for that? Or, is it just something you feel to be true and so you are
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:44 PM
Jan 2018

using it to continue your lecture on "reality"? I have tried to be patient and respectful but your condescension is getting old.

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
105. I guess that's about as rational and accurate a response as I can expect. Have a swell evening. nt
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 09:40 PM
Jan 2018
 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
146. I think the inverse is also true, but when I try to express that
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 11:29 AM
Jan 2018

I get called a "rubber stamp Democrat."

TNLib

(1,819 posts)
5. It's like the Dems are bleeding the GOP by paper cuts
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 05:11 PM
Jan 2018

It's a slow process but so far the dems are getting what they want. The GOP is in a no win situation. The best they can hope for is kick the daca can down the road and nobody is going to get a wall.

lapfog_1

(29,194 posts)
6. Caved with the potential for failure
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 05:23 PM
Jan 2018

here is why...

A couple of weeks ago ( right after the release of Fire and Fury ) they had a show meeting at the white house to discuss immigration. The real purpose was to counter the perception that Trump has dementia and can't even pay attention to what is going on around him. In that meeting Trump stated "you all bring me a bi-partisan deal and I will sign it.

Two days later Durbin and Graham went to the White House with a bipartisan deal to partially fund the wall, reduce the immigration lottery by 50%, and end chain migration for which there would be a permanent status for the Dreamers with a path to citizenship.

This deal, should it have been voted on by House and Senate, would pass ( although it might not get 50% of the Republican House votes ) .

The anti-immigrant staff decided to blow up the deal and sandbagged Durbin and Graham by inviting a lot of immigration hard-liners to the meeting... and someone whispered in Trumps ear that "he doesn't really want a bunch of people from "shithole" countries to be immigrants, right" which the Donald, being a 3-year-old and a racist, dutifully repeated in the meeting. Needless to say, the shit hit the fan and the deal died.

The President is not the President. His staff (Kelly and Miller) are acting Presidents because I really believe that Trump is close to a mental breakdown and is suffering from early dementia.

Facing the end of the last CR, the Republicans offered up to fund SCHIP... which they should have funded months ago when it expired... as they have since the inception of the program.

It was for another 4 week CR. What the Democrats and the more moderate Republicans should be complaining about is that the use of CRs to fund things is really quite expensive... it is like buying a new car 1 part at a time from O'Reilly Auto Parts.

So there was a shutdown. Democrats started to fear that they would be blamed ( Republicans are so much better at messaging in little sound bites than Democrats ) .

Will we get the same bi-partisan deal on immigration in 3 weeks... or will there be another showdown? A showdown where it has been proven the Democrats will fold when the Republicans shove all-in.

We may get an immigration bill, but it won't be as good as what Durbin and Graham took to the President a week ago last Thursday,

Cary

(11,746 posts)
17. Has anything worked for Republicans?
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:08 PM
Jan 2018

Have they grown beyond #fakepresident's cult followers? Have they created anything sustainable?

Here's the deal: VOTE DEMOCRATIC in November.

Everything else is just talking in circles.

old guy

(3,283 posts)
38. At the extreme risk of being called
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:57 PM
Jan 2018

many names and being accused of many nefarious acts and schemes, I am on board with your analysis. Thanks you.

Demsrule86

(68,539 posts)
50. Again not how...do we change this...We can't- shutting down the government is unpopular and we
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:16 PM
Jan 2018

would get blamed...with less than a year from a crucial election...that has to be factored in. We have no power...it is not caving so much as facing reality...we got all we could and got out...we could have lost both DACA and CHIP. Millions of kids are safe now ...really sick kids. I can't be unhappy about that. Our last best chance for DACA was to vote for Hillary Clinton and that is the truth.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,109 posts)
58. I dont see any ANSWERS as to what to do in your post. And I disagree STRONGLY with one thing
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:22 PM
Jan 2018

Democrats CARE that a government shut down hurts people, cons dont, dems want the government running because it is the RIGHT thing to do and helps people.

Why would anyone be a Democrat if they didnt believe that?

WHAT would YOU do differently?

Exactly?

lapfog_1

(29,194 posts)
125. I don't have an answer.
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 01:06 AM
Jan 2018

I never offered one.

I merely observed ( as a semi-professional poker player ) that the Dems folded. Which, to me, implies that the next time they will be expected by the Republicans to fold again... which means that the DACA deal if offered, it will be less than what they were striving for this time.

I expect no path to citizenship only to some sort of legal status... along with crap like the bill proposed by republicans that would criminalize poverty by the Dreamers ( if they fall below 125% of federal poverty standards they will lose their green cards )

That is IF they get any sort of DACA deal through the Senate ( only a vote was offered ) and by the HOUSE ( which did NOT promise to vote on DACA ) and then signed by the President ( with the same racist assholes surrounding him plus his own racist asshole self )

For those respondents in this sub-thread telling me about the next elections... that's great but as this poster points out, the Democrats actually care about helping people. We may win the next election but 700,000 people that trusted us, who are as American and anyone else here, may well end up fired from their jobs or expelled from school as undocumented and then deported to places they don't know and where they may not even speak the language.

Yes 90% of all Americans want permanent status for Dreamers... but only the Democrats are willing to do something about it. The only power they have is to not vote to end debate on spending bills to get it.

I don't have a solution.

Cheviteau

(383 posts)
165. The Situation As I See It.
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 04:54 PM
Jan 2018

We Dems had a choice. Keep the shutdown going and take the blame or, save DACA and take the credit. Since 85% of the country wants DACA reinstated, I'd have gone with a longer shutdown, forcing something from the other side. On the other hand, McConnell could have gone shit-house and changed the rule to a 51% majority vote like he did with the stolen SC seat. Yeah, he could have done that and won...with our, shall I say, wishy-washy Demos voting with him.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
148. How is the bipartisan agreement that Durbin and Graham had, which DT pissed all over
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 11:34 AM
Jan 2018

somehow worse off because Dems got a six year CHIP extension and kept the government open?

Are you saying that DT would have done a 180, and said that he had been oh so wrong to do that, if Dems had just refused to come to the table this weekend?



lapfog_1

(29,194 posts)
153. I think DT is a poor bully
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 12:05 PM
Jan 2018

and like bullies the world over, when you stand up to them they cave.

Let's put it in a poker player language.

On Friday the Repukes put in a "standard bet" on the river card, SCHIP funding. This isn't even a standard bet but really more of an ante bet because SCHIP shouldn't have even been there in the first place... a lot of Republican governors were begging the Republican controlled congress to fund Children's Health. So they stuck this in the CR bill.

The Democrats raised with a shutdown bet a little after midnight. Schumer tried to give some cover to our Democratic senators from red states by allowing McCaskill to offer up military pay as a must vote now ( without objection ) only Mitch objected thus cutting off military pay ( which then VP Pence tried to blame on Democrats by lying about it )

But, by Monday the red state Democratic Senators panicked and folded to the small re-raise from Mitch "I promise to have a vote on some DACA bill under regular order" but it wasn't a promise for a clean DACA bill, it wasn't a promise to hold a gun to the House and force them to pass whatever the Senate votes on and it wasn't a promise that Trump will sign.

So... small standard bet on the river, Democrats raise almost all in, small re-raise with empty promise, Democrats fold and vote for the CR

Not a good finish to the hand.

Better would have been to go all in and leave the government shutdown. Perhaps that would have stopped Trump from creating a 30% tariff on imported solar panels for a few weeks or months.

And before anyone cries "but what about those poor government workers!" I would like to remind everyone that I was a victim on the longest shutdown on record in 1995... and, as a contractor, I was NOT reimbursed for the missing pay when it was over... I drained my savings and even borrowed from my mother to make it through.

My point is that doing the shutdown is the only play the Democrats HAVE to get anything even close to "bi-partisan" through this fascist government. They should have stuck to their guns and see what a month or two would eventually do to Trump. Maybe the public would blame the Democrats, maybe it would have cost them some more Senate seats... but having voted for a shutdown on Friday only to reopen on Monday with a vague promise of a bill on DACA made the Democrats look weak.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
154. Imagine what the parents of the kids on CHIP and the people of Puerto Rico
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 12:32 PM
Jan 2018

would have had to deal with.

So far as I see, they lost nothing that they can't get on Feb 8.

lapfog_1

(29,194 posts)
162. the republicans offered the deal on SCHIP before the shutdown
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 02:28 PM
Jan 2018

getting it on the Monday after was not a "win"

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
163. So you think it wasn't a win? Nor was keeping the goverment open?
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 02:31 PM
Jan 2018

In what way is it not a "win?"

It certainly wasn't being offered prior to last week.

lapfog_1

(29,194 posts)
164. better check your facts
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 02:43 PM
Jan 2018

The CR passed by the House last week contained, among other things, a 6 year funding for SCHIP.

The same deal that the Democrats voted for on Monday.

The ONLY major difference between Friday and Monday was the promise of the Senate Majority Leader to have a vote on a "comprehensive immigration bill" (not even a clean DACA status bill).

Without the agreement of the White House and House leadership, such a promise could mean almost nothing.

Ask a Dreamer if they feel betrayed today.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dreamers-senate-democrats_us_5a666995e4b002283005d407?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
169. Are you a Dreamer?
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 07:47 PM
Jan 2018

Do you speak for them?

Do you speak also for the people of Puerto Rico, who need every one of the paltry government services left?

I think you need to be checking facts.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/1/22/16920532/shutdown-deal-democrats

Voltaire2

(12,977 posts)
7. Nothing material changed from Friday to Monday.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 05:33 PM
Jan 2018

So those supporting the result today must logically have opposed the result on Friday.

Gothmog

(145,046 posts)
9. Not at all
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 05:34 PM
Jan 2018

Friday's action were necessary to push this issue and force the Senate republicans to move towards a bi-partisan proposal.

Voltaire2

(12,977 posts)
10. There was no movement.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 05:38 PM
Jan 2018

The only difference is a non binding statement from turtle that a daca vote might happen. That is totally within my assertion of “nothing material”.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
12. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc...
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 05:44 PM
Jan 2018

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

Must be a Monday thing... they're all over the damn place today.

Voltaire2

(12,977 posts)
26. err, if you are referring to my position that is not correct.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:41 PM
Jan 2018

My position that the set of conditions on Friday are essentially the same as the set of conditions on Monday. If the set of conditions is X, then if the correct response to X on Friday is Y, the correct response to X on Monday is also Y. (Unless of course one wishes to argue that the temporal change is significant, which so far I haven't seen anyone argue)

"after this, therefore because of this" is the fallacy that an event that follows another event is caused by the first event. It might be caused, but that is not proven merely by order in time.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
133. Then your position is objectively wrong
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 09:16 AM
Jan 2018

On Friday CHIP wasn't funded. On Friday 2.7 million people were directly not being paid, not to mention all the businesses that rely on those 2.7 million people having jobs. On Friday there was no promise (whether you believe McConnell will allow the vote or not or if you believe it will pass or not)

On Monday, those things all changed.

Gothmog

(145,046 posts)
8. Given the rules, this was as good of an outcome as was possible
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 05:33 PM
Jan 2018

I am lawyer and I think that Senator Schumer did a good job here. This is a less than three week delay and now CHIPs is off the table. During the three week period, we will see that the results will be. If the Senate get a bipartisan deal, then Trump will either have to accept it or look like he hates Dreamers.

Getting to a good bi-partisan deal will be a major accomplishment that could not happen during a filibuster. While the polling is mixed now, there was a good risk that a long filibuster would have backfired on the Democrats.

I do not think that there was any caving here and I feel that this was as good as deal as was possible under the circumstances.

The key is that if McConnell or trump block a bi-partisan deal, the Democrats will be in a stronger position to push the issue. There are a good number of swing GOP house seats with meaningful Hispanic voting populations who will be at risk if the GOP block a negotiated bi-partisan senate deal

mia

(8,360 posts)
87. Well said.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:40 PM
Jan 2018

Thank you. Democrats saved the day and are seen as dedicated to an outcome that represents the ideals of our country.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
106. Nicely stated truth. Democrats simply don't have a lot of leverage right now.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 09:40 PM
Jan 2018

As you say. Gothmog, this is as good a deal as was possible, given the situation.

Gothmog

(145,046 posts)
168. I am rooting for Senator Durbin, Graham and Collins to come up with bi-partisan bill
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 07:05 PM
Jan 2018

Such a bill would not be possible during a shutdown. If there is such a bill, then this shutdown and Senator Schumer's strategy would be vindicated

ismnotwasm

(41,971 posts)
113. Yup
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 10:14 PM
Jan 2018

What would happen with an extended shut down doesn’t provide good outcomes or good politics. I wish people could continue to acknowledge how very fucked we are with a Republican majority, rather blaming Democrats for something every other day.



Elections have consequences— and the Blame-the-Democrats party of people like Greenwald et al are opportunistic pieces of shit.

hueymahl

(2,468 posts)
157. I agree with your analysis
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 01:17 PM
Jan 2018

What scares me is our leadership. Will they have guts to stand up for what is right? Or will they fear being "blamed" for the next shutdown.

I used to not have such fears.

Gothmog

(145,046 posts)
167. I am enjoying the stories about the bi-partisan group meeting on this issue
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 07:02 PM
Jan 2018

Evidently, the group is meeting in Senator Susan Collins office and are using a talking stick to facilitate negotiations. https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210131982 If there is any sort of bi-partisan bill due to these negotiations, then there will be a ton of pressure on Trump and Ryan to accept such proposal.

still_one

(92,108 posts)
11. Excellent points Earl. DACA wasnt going to happen because of the shutdown. However what
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 05:38 PM
Jan 2018

was accomplished was that the republicans are now going to be accountable for bringing this up for a vote or not, and this is an issue for the 2018 election

The media and certain groups characterizing the Democrats as caving is meaningless. DACA wasn’t going to happen this way.

Perhaps those who cared about this who didn’t vote for the Democratic nominee or didn’t vote in 2016 will now come out to vote in 2016

iluvtennis

(19,843 posts)
14. I know you didn't want this answer, but I DON'T TRUST MCCONNELL and the rethugs...
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:05 PM
Jan 2018

...I really think we won't get a DACA vote, I hope I'm wrong for the sake of those young ppl. I wanted the Dems to stand strong and take this to the end. Now, McConnell and Trump get confirmation for their bullying and hard lining tactics.

Dems should have pushed more to fund the military and essential personnel and let the rest as a stalemate. Let the federal employees, and people who want to visit national parks, and have business at federal offices etc force the issue.

In my opinion, we caved too quickly.

TeamPooka

(24,216 posts)
29. No one should ever trust McConnell. This is the guy who stole a Supreme Court seat, smiling all the
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:47 PM
Jan 2018

way as he defied the US Constitution.
However, this is not about trust, this is about political promises and public stances.
If McConnell doesn't do as he promises then this becomes a much larger issue to the public than it is now.
Either way it is now a key 2018 issue when it was only a Democratic issue last week.

Hostages rarely get released all at once and the GOP are terrorists.
We freed the CHiP kids today and now we have to work to free the DACA kids.
Public pressure, like with healthcare, will get us what we want.
Call every Senator and Congressman you can to demand a resolution for these young men and women.

byronius

(7,392 posts)
15. Complex maneuverings at the centers of power are easy targets for armchair quarterbacking.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:06 PM
Jan 2018

But I trust the leadership in this matter. They've been showing steel backbone.

The horror of this past year seems to have stiffened us all and provided much needed unity. Still going to be a couple of outliers insisting that we drench ourselves in gasoline and torch up in protest.

byronius

(7,392 posts)
33. Funny thing, I consider myself quite the radical.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:52 PM
Jan 2018

But the stuff I believe in and care about requires time and compromise and cooperation.

It's a frustrating process to make progress on things that should be self-obvious to any sentient creature, but I'm stuck on a planet where a good percentage of the population believes demonstrably untrue things.

'Be the radical you would have wanted to meet before you became a radical.'

Cary

(11,746 posts)
37. I hear you
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:56 PM
Jan 2018

The radicals I have engaged refuse to acknowledge that the only real difference between them and me is one of process.

OriginalGeek

(12,132 posts)
18. I admit I was not too sure of the deal
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:10 PM
Jan 2018

until I read some compelling discussion here in several threads. I feel better now.

kentuck

(111,069 posts)
22. I think it turned out pretty good.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:20 PM
Jan 2018

Granted that not a lot of concessions were made.

But they got a huge vote which must have surprised the White House? The coalition of about 30 Senators may turn out to be a very important faction? They have a lot of power if they stay united. They could be the power brokers in this broken Administration?

OhioBlue

(5,126 posts)
119. I think that is a key component that isn't being talked about enough
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 11:54 PM
Jan 2018

The bipartisan group of over 20 Senators that met for days and rebuilt a camaraderie and collegiality that used to exist in the Senate. I don't know what the many conversations covered, but gleaning from some interviews, it seems that they shared frustration at not being able to discuss and legislate things that almost all of them and the public agree on such as DACA, health market stabilization, back ground checks, bump stocks, etc.

Hopefully they move forward as a powerful bloc and take power away from Trump and McConnell.

bpj62

(999 posts)
30. McConnell blinked
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:48 PM
Jan 2018

Look SCHIP is now off the table. The house republicans deliberately refused to fund it last October. I think the problem with DACA comes down to the fact neither the House or the Senate thought that they would have to deal with it. Then Trump threw them a live grenade last September. I think McConnell is hoping that the court rules in favor of DACA so he won't have to schedule a vote. Lastly the Democrats look good because they showed that they can see the bigger picture which Is the midterms. Schumer also got some free shots In on Trump and yoiu know Trump is steaming over that. Because we are the minority we have to play long ball. Just my two cents.

Demsrule86

(68,539 posts)
55. And lose CHIP and DACA. We were never getting DACA by shutting down the government.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:20 PM
Jan 2018

We can however....make the GOP deal with it again.That is a good thing with less than a year before the election. Personally I would give Trump his damn wall in order to save the DACA kids...but it may be he doesn't really want a wall.

EllieBC

(3,010 posts)
77. We got CHIP.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:04 PM
Jan 2018

Saying no to CHIP for 6 years for DACA would be a fail too.

Elections have consequences. We are quite sadly in a minority position.

Orrex

(63,185 posts)
134. That point can't be made often enough
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 09:24 AM
Jan 2018

If Democrats had demanded both CHIP and DACA, they'd have gotten neither, and the GOP and media would absolutely blame Dems for losing both.

Instead, we secured funding for CHIP, and now we can focus our efforts squarely on DACA.

This was as close to an unambiguous win as we could have hoped in the current environment.

Demsrule86

(68,539 posts)
81. We got Chip and another chance at DACA...and to run Trump's nose in it and wreck his little party...
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:11 PM
Jan 2018

In short, we got what we could given we have no power.

Thedemby

(49 posts)
36. Great!
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 06:55 PM
Jan 2018

17 days for the great orange Jello to make a fool of himself attempting to get involved in a process that is way over his head. And you know he will, many times over.

17 days for the GOP and Jello to show true colors to the public. Going to be a great show.

 

elmac

(4,642 posts)
39. got to keep what little bargaining chips we have
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:04 PM
Jan 2018

we played hardball for a few days but in the end the fascists got their safety net killing budget through with the help of Dems. This will not get people to the polls in Nov.

mcar

(42,287 posts)
92. We got them to release one of the hostages (CHIP)
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:49 PM
Jan 2018

so it cannot be played against DACA. We also got a promise for a DACA vote.

Thunderbeast

(3,404 posts)
40. It is all based on "HOPE" and trust
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:04 PM
Jan 2018

Will Lucy pull the football trick on Charlie Brown again?

I fear so.

If the Republicans were serious, they would not be crowing over their great victory. Maximum humiliation of an opponent is not productive in reaching compromise.

I don't they are capable of respectful debate.

AllyCat

(16,173 posts)
41. McConnell is untrustworthy. But he is now on record
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:05 PM
Jan 2018

With an agreement to do this. If he doesn’t, the media may actually take him to the woodshed for a change.

I think this was a small compromise for reasonable gains. Actually negotiating. Something elected officials used to do.

I like this deal better than a shutdown or no health insurance for kids.

angrychair

(8,685 posts)
42. Given this outcome
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:06 PM
Jan 2018

Given the present outcome I would have voted in favor of the CR on Friday.

First, people keep repeating three things that just are not true:
1.

“Now CHIP is off the table”

that would have been just as true if we voted for the CR Friday. The CR period just would have been 7 days longer.

2.
McConnell promised a vote

McConnell did no such thing, he promised to allow debate but never said he would allow a vote on anything.

3.
“This was the best possible outcome”

This created animosity where there wasn’t any. We had the wind in our sails and many felt emboldened by the show of resolution in the face of the racist and xenophobic majority. Now, many DACA-aligned and even liberal groups do not see this as some masterful stroke but as a slap in the face. We got the government going again but we took a not insignificant political hit for it. I encourage everyone to google “shutdown news” while some is neutral, most is not. Twitter is all but burning us alive. Yea, maybe it won’t matter by November but a lot of that now depends on who blinks as the March deadline approaches.

I believe we overcommitted and if we do not get what we want by Feb 8th does any of us actually think there is any political stomach for two shutdowns in 4 weeks in an election year?
I completely expect the republicans to give us a “take it leave it” bill that gives DACA kids a pathway to citizenship but with stomach-churning concessions that all but dare Democrats to vote against it. I truly hope I’m wrong.

ProfessorGAC

(64,951 posts)
62. There's No How In Your Statement, AC
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:29 PM
Jan 2018

A considered opinion for sure, but you make no comment on how you would have gotten more by continuing a standoff that was highly unpopular with the american people.

angrychair

(8,685 posts)
67. The point is
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:44 PM
Jan 2018

I would have kept my powder dry, taken the 4 week CR/CHIP deal and then gone to the “DACA or shutdown” to push the issue and used the deadline as a taunt on trump to dare him...it’s a better effect. I do not dispute that we can still taunt trump to let the DACA deadline expire with no action even now but I really don’t see a shutdown threat as credible as 2 in four weeks is likely political suicide.

If you want an answer on the actual existing situation, I would have stuck to it and held out...I do believe the republicans would have caved by the end of the week.

Demsrule86

(68,539 posts)
82. They were not going to cave...it was DACA against CHIP...'illegals against America's kids"...
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:13 PM
Jan 2018

It was going badly. Schumer recognized this...got what he could and got out.

Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #82)

angrychair

(8,685 posts)
69. I dont mind
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:46 PM
Jan 2018

I actually hope this ends up working great for us Dems, I really do but history has shown us that is rarely the case.

mountain grammy

(26,605 posts)
43. So I wrote to both my senators
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:09 PM
Jan 2018

Both voted for the bill. To the lying snake republican I said you better support DACA in February or pay the price. To senator Bennet I said I’m disappointed but understand. I don’t approve but you did your best. I’ll be calling Gardner daily to remind his lying ass who he works for. #Trumpshutdown

Demsrule86

(68,539 posts)
59. Good for you...I should do that...very clever.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:23 PM
Jan 2018

I live in Ohio...don't know if Sherrod voted for it or not...he is up for re-election in Ohio so he might have. I am sure that ass Portman did.

MelissaB

(16,420 posts)
47. I think they caved early, but while a Russian asset is in the WH I won't ride their ass hard.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:13 PM
Jan 2018

Bigger fish to fry and all...

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
48. I'm glad that the gov't employees (and citizens) in Puerto Rico didn't have to endure
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:14 PM
Jan 2018

yet another layer of hardship and lack of services with a shutdown.

I'm glad that parents of kids on CHIP didn't have to spend another sleepless night wondering if they were going to have to choose between their children's health care and paying rent.

Gothmog

(145,046 posts)
100. The number of negotiating chips here were limited
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 09:26 PM
Jan 2018

The democrats made good use of the bargaining chips available to them

Tarheel_Dem

(31,228 posts)
103. That's fine, but it doesn't satisfy the "Our Revolution" nuts who peddle the "Dems Caved"....
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 09:37 PM
Jan 2018

narrative. And we know what their objective is.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,109 posts)
63. I have not seen a SINGLE suggestion of what to do as to your question by those angry
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:31 PM
Jan 2018

about the dems deal, so if such a thing gets posted, be sure to let me know, thanks.

I have seen excellent Re-framing of what WE want in several places, something a famous politician is known to do often, but so far not a single suggestion of what to do differently to get us what WE want.

krawhitham

(4,641 posts)
70. Should have railed against the TAX CUTS in the CR
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:47 PM
Jan 2018

It is all about optics


GOP kept claiming we liked everything in the bill and we had no reason to vote against WHAT WAS IN THE BILL. That made us look bad


House GOP attached 3 ACA tax delays to the bill because it was the only way they could get their own to vote for CHIP, this got little press

We should have demanded these (suspended medical device tax 2 years, suspended cadillac tax 2 years, & suspended health insurer tax 1 year) be removed, because it is just the GOP trying to dismantle the ACA brick by brick. Even use their own language about has not to do with the CR like they did about DACA. Once removed the House would no longer be able to pass the CHIP extension. With the GOP's CHiP leverage gone we would not longer look like bastards and could have held out long for real DACA help

PatrickforO

(14,566 posts)
71. They got the GOP crazies to concede 6 years of funding for CHIP.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:49 PM
Jan 2018

That was great.

AND, they got McTurtle to PUBLICLY agree to a floor vote on a DACA bill, which some of the Republicans want, as well.

We didn't lose at all with this move, and actually came out looking like the good guys.

I don't see much downside, and no I don't drink a lot of Kool Aid - it's just that I believe this was a good political move on the part of the Dem leadership in Congress.

6 years of CHIP!

krawhitham

(4,641 posts)
73. We had that before the shutdown
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 07:53 PM
Jan 2018

CHIP was in the bill on Friday

Turtle has already promised a DACA vote before the end of January


We got nothing

mcar

(42,287 posts)
94. We got them to release one of the hostages (CHIP)
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:53 PM
Jan 2018

We got Turtle to publicly agree to a DACA vote. People aren't going to pay attention to the nuance. McConnell promised, there is a bipartisan bill in the Senate. It will pass if its brought to the floor.?

Then its all on Ryan's shoulders.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
109. Whatever the Senate Rs bring will be a toxic disaster
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 09:45 PM
Jan 2018

Guaranteed

Ryan will never bring anything to a vote. He's got a shitload of tea party lunatics who wet themselves at every horrific airport family deportation news story. He'll NEVER cross those shitheads.

Face it. The Dreamers are going to be deported in droves. The R base will lap it alllll up

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
121. Do you think no matter what we wont get DACA and yet we should have given in to the wall and
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 12:00 AM
Jan 2018

Military budget increases they wanted on Friday? You’re not really good at this second guessing thing- claiming we should have taken a worse deal.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
122. We wont get DACA. Because we caved and because #PresidentStephenMiller
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 12:10 AM
Jan 2018

The Rs decision to give on the wall and military $$ on Friday means nothing since they know Trump is capricious. I dont gaf about Trumps demands anymore, its now obvious to us he's irrelevant. That fact had to have been known months, if not a year, ago.

Schumer knows all of this. His decision to trust McConnell is ridiculous since McConnell has even double-crossed members of his own party (Collins and Flake)

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
123. LOL- so lets discount that the GOP wants anything at all? Not playing that stupid game. Friday was
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 12:13 AM
Jan 2018

A different deal- you know that yet will not admit it because it doesn’t bolster your narrative.... the narrative being Dems suck. Got it.

samnsara

(17,613 posts)
80. i think the Dems did a great job. No one wants to tear the country apart...
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:06 PM
Jan 2018

...well the GOP does...but they are evil anyway. I think this shutdown really brought the plight of the Dreamers into the public eye and the consciousness.. and shows the CRs are a joke. I bet most people never really knew how all this works ( I know I don't!) and watching this all play out is very educational. We all knew the evil GOP would have burned the country down before they gave an inch but now they are on record...they made a promise and if they welch we will bring them down.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
83. I didn't see your post before I posted mine
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:16 PM
Jan 2018

I had the same question. It seems that people want to criticize and second guess based on wouldashouldacouldas but haven't walked through the real-life scenarios.

Gothmog

(145,046 posts)
99. I am deal attorney and so I understand the concept of negotiation
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 09:25 PM
Jan 2018

I really am comfortable with the deal struck by Senator Schumer

True Blue American

(17,982 posts)
147. I am,too!
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 11:31 AM
Jan 2018

Schumer just proved how smart he is at negotiating.

BTW, where is Trump? No strolls to the helicopter, posturing before the Press.

Gothmog

(145,046 posts)
156. The person who does his hair was not available and so he was in hiding
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 01:12 PM
Jan 2018

When trump is wearing his MAGA cap, it is clear that his hair is not done

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
88. I believe the Dem leadership lost credibility and faith with a significant portion of the Dem base
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 08:40 PM
Jan 2018

The R messaging that they triumphed, that the Schumer Shutdown was an abject failure, that Dems are dupes is working out here in the real world. A significant sense of momentum was punctured here.

This feels like a massive sell out of Dreamers because the Rs and the WH, especially the WH, cant wait to deport them. Their base is salivating out there about this. You know that. The Rs just got a massive shot of energy.

Both those facts are troublesome.

CHIP was already in the Friday bill - we didn't "win" that. Rs had already given that up.

Lastly, Ryan has already signaled, even before the vote, that he's not going to bring a DACA bill up in the House. McConnell's "promise" is vague - he's agreed to a debate, not to a vote. Face it, our best chance to save DACA was to stand strong now.

Three weeks of R marketing on "illegals are criminals", a laser focus on turning any future bill into an immigration monstrosity that Dems will find extremely difficult (impossible?) to vote for. I dunno. I just know this is going to end in tears for us.

So what I would have done?
1. Keep pounding that Trump needed to say what he would accept on DACA (bottom line he wants deportation but he nor the Rs could say that w 87% of Americans wanting them to stay).
2. Hold firm.
3. Keep bringing up resolutions to fund the military and show the public how many times the Rs say "no way".

flying-skeleton

(696 posts)
97. FAILED
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 09:10 PM
Jan 2018

There is ZERO Commitment from the House to bring up ANY Senate DACA amendment for a vote.
So in effect McConnell's promise has no teeth.

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
108. I don't believe Democrats caved.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 09:43 PM
Jan 2018

They called attention to the actions of the racist-in-chief and his enablers. Leaving the government shut was never a goal of Democrats.
The voters (and Trump's collusion with Putin) left Democrats with no levers of power. They've done well so far.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
110. If CHIP is funded I think that's good. It never should've been 'part of this' ...
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 09:53 PM
Jan 2018

Now perhaps we can get into good-faith (lol) negotiations on money for increased border security of some type in exchange for a deal on the Dreamers. That's the sort of deal-making that's REASONABLE ... it's all one 'subject' i.e. immigration, there's just two sides to it.

No longer will the GOP be able to hold the 'illegals more important than american kids' bullshit over our heads at least. Which was a dirty rotten trick they should never even gotten away with but of course Dems lack messaging skills and teh damn corporate media SUCKS GOP dong all day long outside of a few commentary shows ... so they were able to put it across to enough people that Dems were making this 'choice'. WE all know that really the GOP is in charge and has known they needed to handle the CHIP funding situation for months and months, but ... Dems failed to capture teh zeitgeist, as usual.

Honestly really wish Obama or Hillary would've really gotten out there and pimped what a BS trick this was by the GOP. We need them back acting as statesmen. And someone stronger needs to be running the DNC.

Of course, scumbags that Munster and Turtle are, they'll find something else next time to leverage in this same fashion.

MrPurple

(985 posts)
112. This one day shutdown will be quickly forgotten amid the continuous Trump insanity cycle
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 10:13 PM
Jan 2018

The Democrats were able to insert a bookmark in the public's brain about DACA being extended, which makes it more likely to happen. They got CHiP extended and were able to get a few Republicans to vote with them and fvck up Trump's 100K a plate anniversary party.

It's a positive, but a small one. It will get lost in the shuffle pretty quickly.

Nitram

(22,776 posts)
115. I agree. The Dems played this brilliantly.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 10:36 PM
Jan 2018

Trumpistan has no place to go but down this time around.

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
118. what i would have done differently applies to all dem vs republican politics.
Mon Jan 22, 2018, 11:44 PM
Jan 2018

the immigration issue was used to sell voter suppression and the wall was part of that and with trump it's all nothing but talk radio with a little fox

it's fucking ridiculous that the democrats continue to ignore talk radio - the wall is a bargaining point for republicans and without 1200 unchallenged talk radio stations it would be a joke.

this whole alternate reality of insane made to order teabag constituencies is all because dems and liberals give talk radio a free speech free ride.

lamp_shade

(14,824 posts)
128. Thanks, EarlG for starting this very educational thread.
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 04:35 AM
Jan 2018

I have a much better understanding now of why in fact Schumer didn't "cave".

mfcorey1

(11,001 posts)
129. CHIP saved, now on to DACA. We have to stop agreeing with
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 07:20 AM
Jan 2018

the voices that make CHIP seem like nothing.The repubs know we will bring the fight for DACA. Yes, they caved to the health and well being of so many children.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
130. No deal until the bipartisan DACA bill is put up for a vote
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 07:30 AM
Jan 2018

And continue to do what McCaskill did with offering amendment to pay service members fully during shutdown.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
135. Any so-called DACA bill will be a poison pill.
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 09:45 AM
Jan 2018

Full of things the Democrats cannot support. McConnell is a snake who cannot be trusted.

From here on out, Democrats have to act as if the GOP are bad, untrustworthy actors, which they are. In addition, they need to start hammering the Republicans in the media. You can see that the Democrats are getting the blame for the shutdown. Trump is crowing that this is a victory for him, when he is the one who caused this mess in the first, by listening to monsters like Miller.

Efilroft Sul

(3,578 posts)
138. Consider this quote by Ezra Levin of Indivisible
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 10:01 AM
Jan 2018

"They [the Democratic leaders] caved in early September, but promised to use their leverage in early December. They caved in early December, but promised to use their leverage by the end of the year. They caved at the end of the year, but they promised to use their leverage in January. And now they caved again, but promised to use their leverage in February. Democrats clearly want to keep Dreamers as a talking point, but they need to grow a spine and actually fight for the Dream Act."

Schumer et al have caved so much on the Dreamers that they've got honorary lifetime passes to Carlsbad Caverns.

 

GaryCnf

(1,399 posts)
139. Number One Post-Shutdown post right here and from an administrator no less
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 10:03 AM
Jan 2018

Respect.

No preaching;

No claims of victory for achieving something we would have achieved even without the shutdown;

No treating people who disagree with you like they are politically naïve;

A simple and honest question;

An absolute joy to read.

What would I have done differently?

First, unless we intended to fight to the death, we should have never tied DACA to the CR. Immigrants from Central and South America and the citizen descendants of those who immigrated from there since the end of WWII are the single most important demographic group to the future of the Democratic Party. They may not vote Democratic with the consistency of people in my community, but their numbers are so much greater than ours that they hold our party's future in their hands. Many in that community were already suspicious of the party because the only immigrants our party seems to publicly embrace are the 800,000 or so high-achieving "Dreamers" (in other words, the kind of immigrants white folks like) and not the 9 million other immigrants who have come to this country to feed their families, to work hard, to escape the violence and oppression in the nations of their birth, and, yes, to drink and drive, to commit crimes, and all the other things that any other community does. Nonetheless, they clung to DACA as a symbol of good faith, particularly after Obama went out on a political and constitutional limb to enforce it through executive order. To them it wasn't a bargaining chip. Their mothers, their fathers, their children weren't bargaining chips. If that is all they were to the party leadership, the leadership should have found another chip.

Second, once we did tie DACA to the CR, we needed to aggressively push the message that the CR could be passed with ONLY Republican votes. Before a single vote was cast last Friday, our leadership should have been on every news show talking about how the GOP has been willing to cast aside the 60-vote requirement over and over for things they really want and the fact that they hadn't done it for the CR shows that either they really didn't care about keeping the government open OR that they were keeping it in place SOLELY to humiliate Democrats by forcing them to join Trump in order to keep the Government running. Our message should have been, "The Republicans are shutting down the government for no other reason than to force Democrats to join Trump in his childish and destructive crusade to destroy every one of Obama's signature achievements." Instead, we stuck with the failed triangulation politics of the post-1992 party and tried to split off Republican females by focusing on "the children" (both CHIP and DACA) and, not surprisingly, failed again.

Third, after our triangulation scheme failed, we should have dropped all demands, said "It's your CR, pass it" and publicly stated that we had released our caucus to vote their conscience. Doug, Claire, Heidi, Joe and the others who don't think they can win without Trumpsters - and maybe can't - (aside, Claire is going to get beat like a drum unless she goes crawling to the black community she abandoned after Ferguson, but that is a different subject entirely) could give them enough votes to get them close enough to 60 that the GOP's own caucus could put them over the top. That way, if the CR didn't pass, the blame would either fall on Rand Paul et al. OR on the House GOP for sending over such an unprincipled and cruel CR in the first place AND our blue dogs would be able to run to the GOP's right on this issue in the next election (two for the price of one).

Fourth, and I know this happened after your post, but we need to put a gag on the centrist Democrats who are going from talk show to talk show (e.g. Chris Coons on MSNBC this morning) attacking Democrats who voted against this surrender as politically naïve and more interested in their own political futures than making the country work AND other self-proclaimed "loyal Democrats" who are doing the same to anyone who dares condemn what Schumer did in chat rooms and on message boards. Right now (and it will be even worse in three weeks when we "compromise" on some "DACA-light" with no path to citizenship and streamlined deportations for the 9 million other immigrants, if we can get even that past the House and/or cave on the CR again) we will get garbage turnouts from the citizen descendants of our Central and South American brothers and sisters - just like we got miserable turnout from my community after our party went silent on the blue on black murder and criminal justice reform to undue the 1994 Violent Crime Act after the convention - and it will cost us ANOTHER election. Demeaning the concerns, political awareness, and intelligence of those groups, who already feel abandoned, and the handful of politicians standing up from them is beyond arrogance. It is political suicide.

Once again, thank you for offering to listen. Sometimes I am amazed at how great the admins can be here.

EarlG

(21,939 posts)
155. Thank you for the thoughtful response
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 12:38 PM
Jan 2018

I think you bring up some good points. I do believe that what just happened is not the end of the fight over DACA, but the beginning. We shall see how this plays out over the next few weeks...

 

GaryCnf

(1,399 posts)
161. You could not be more correct
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 02:11 PM
Jan 2018


The fight for DACA is far from over.

What's more, if recent victories in Alabama and Wisconsin are any indication, we will be having that fight when WE are in control of the House of Representatives, if not sooner!

Snackshack

(2,541 posts)
141. This...
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 11:08 AM
Jan 2018

"A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so."...

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
144. There are those who benefit from Democratic leadership being trashed for whatever they do, and
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 11:17 AM
Jan 2018

they're not just Republicans.

There are plenty of people ready at a moments notice to get outraged, because, you know... ESTABLISHMENT anything is BAD and needs to go!!!! There are OPs to that effect on DU right now now.

No matter how much actual progressive legislation has been accomplished by that leadership, it seems who ever yells and complains the loudest is the "most progressive," and if you are yelling and complaining about the "failure" of actual progressive leadership, that must mean you are super-uber-duper progressive and therefore yours is the standard by which all opinions of "establishment" are judged. Armchair quarterbacking at it's most tiresome.

Sort of like the person who says that they don't see what's so great about Meryl Streep's performances, because that makes them feel (and sound) like their standards and eye for real talent are so much higher than the sheeple who just have no real understanding of the art.






mvd

(65,169 posts)
158. I believe we should see how the February deadline goes
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 01:17 PM
Jan 2018

I don't trust McConnell either, but we got CHIP done and we should be even better now in the eyes of the public. I think we should shut it down for a long time next time if no DACA vote. I object to wall funding, but it really can't be built anyway. It just diverts funds from productive things.

BobTheSubgenius

(11,562 posts)
159. As I understand it...
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 01:48 PM
Jan 2018

...something gained, nothing irrevocably lost. The D's delivered nothing like a knockout blow, clearly, but is it not at least a split decision on points?

pwb

(11,258 posts)
160. The solution is a real yearly budget. No more continuing resolutions.
Tue Jan 23, 2018, 02:09 PM
Jan 2018

With continuing resolutions issues can be held hostage. With a budget in place they can then tend to issues like DACA as a separate and regular bill. Clean. A budget would stop all the we don't support the military, and we support terrorists bullshit. A BUDGET. We have not had one in years and now is the perfect time for all of us to say why not with all branches of government in GOP control.

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