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DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Personal carry not author...

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 08:10 PM

Baconator (1,459 posts)

Personal carry not authorized - Weapons in secure locations around campus for a select few...

Heard a story today on CNN I think...

Some school in Ohio (probably) doesn't allow concealed or open carry by teachers, principals or employees but does have a team with monthly training who have access to safes around the campus with weapons in them (don't know if handguns only or rifles)

Supposedly the identity of these individuals is kept secret but I'm sure they aren't hard to pick out. Mr. Smith the 30 something Afghanistan veteran and PT coach vs 75 year old Mrs. Rasmussen from the library who shouldn't even be driving.

Accepting the increased cost of weapons, safes, training and upkeep... Whatever we do is going to cost money... Is this a step that both sides could accept? For some, the answer is an obvious "No" because it increases guns.

Maybe it saves lives though. Maybe it doesn't

This almost seems like a happy medium between Mrs. Frizzle with a Glock 19 in a shoulder holster and no response capacity at all.

The safes would have to be very secure. Embedded in the concrete or the like... Opening a safe immediately alerts authorities.

I'd also put in a duress code to lock the safe for 48 hours and alert police. Some secure form of identification to first responders.

Pros and cons all around but it seemed more reasonable than most suggestions I've heard in the last week.

Again... I realize that to some the goal is to get rid of guns. A more realistic or at least intermediate goal could be to save lives and do something to make schools a harder target.

Thoughts?

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Arrow 29 replies Author Time Post
Reply Personal carry not authorized - Weapons in secure locations around campus for a select few... (Original post)
 Baconator Feb 2018 OP
LineReply Guns should not be in schools. Period.
 Sophia4 Feb 2018 #1
LineLineReply Meh...
 Baconator Feb 2018 #4
LineLineLineReply It is completely unrealistic.
 Sophia4 Feb 2018 #12
LineLineNew Reply I agree. Make it a felony. Total ban and confiscation of these killing machines is the only way
 johnpowdy Feb 2018 #21
LineLineLineNew Reply Setting aside the politics of banning AR 15s,
 J_William_Ryan Feb 2018 #28
LineLineLineLineNew Reply It's questionable as to whether the they can even be banned outright
 DetroitLegalBeagle Feb 2018 #29
LineReply But if the average shooting last less than 5 minutes, is that enough time
 skip fox Feb 2018 #2
LineLineReply Depends...
 Baconator Feb 2018 #7
LineLineLineReply What the idea of having school personnel trained and armed in order to deter
 Sophia4 Feb 2018 #13
LineLineLineLineReply They were rational in the sense of understanding the consequences of their actions...
 Baconator Feb 2018 #16
LineLineLineLineLineNew Reply Many young people do not understand the risks and rewards of their conduct.
 Sophia4 Feb 2018 #25
LineReply I can't help but feel that if
 Ilsa Feb 2018 #3
LineLineReply I'll give you all of that...
 Baconator Feb 2018 #10
LineReply And if school employees shoot someone,
 guillaumeb Feb 2018 #5
LineLineReply Same standards as LE I suppose...
 Baconator Feb 2018 #6
LineLineLineNew Reply I suggest that you come to Los Angeles or Miami and visit a) the county hospitals
 Sophia4 Feb 2018 #20
LineLineLineLineNew Reply Post removed
 Post removed Feb 2018 #26
LineReply So arming teachers gets shot down and NRA comes up with something else to preserve sickos' access
 Hoyt Feb 2018 #8
LineLineReply As I said in the OP...
 Baconator Feb 2018 #9
LineLineLineReply Post removed
 Post removed Feb 2018 #11
LineLineLineLineReply You think way too much of yourself...
 Baconator Feb 2018 #17
LineReply Sorry kids... no microscopes for the biology lab... we need new AR-15's. NT
 Adrahil Feb 2018 #14
LineReply So let's say I'm an authorized shooter and an event happens.
 Cuthbert Allgood Feb 2018 #15
LineLineReply Percentages I admit...
 Baconator Feb 2018 #18
LineReply It's going to give people a false sense of security. I just heard on MSNBC
 pnwmom Feb 2018 #19
LineLineNew Reply An Assault Weapons Ban is not enough
 johnpowdy Feb 2018 #23
LineLineLineNew Reply Yes, I agree. Semi-automatic hand guns, too.
 pnwmom Feb 2018 #24
LineNew Reply What happens if the teacher carrying the gun drops it and a kid picks it up and starts shooting?
 johnpowdy Feb 2018 #22
LineNew Reply Just place guns in obvious locations throughout a school...
 dchill Feb 2018 #27

Response to Baconator (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 08:16 PM

Sophia4 (3,515 posts)

1. Guns should not be in schools. Period.

 

Little seven-year-olds' imaginations in some cases would go wild with horror stories about the guns in the safe.

I went to school in the 1940s and 1950s and the mere presence of a paddle on one teacher's wall was the subject of many a myth and nightmares for some of the children. The childrens' imaginations went wild -- mine included.

Also, a student could easily wrest the guns from the teacher.

Plus there is the likelihood that teachers or others authorized to use the guns would panic like everyone else and hit students when trying to shoot the intruder.

When you add guns to a school in which there is already a crisis, you just add another big range of possible errors and killings.

No way. Guns do not belong in schools. Not in the schools of today

And AR-15s and other similar horrible guns do not belong in our society.

Possessing a gun of this sort should be a felony in and of itself.

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Response to Sophia4 (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 08:29 PM

Baconator (1,459 posts)

4. Meh...

If teachers are threatening to shoot a child over bad behavior... I'm gonna give you that one... It's bad...

Duh...

A student could also wrest a gun from a responding cop or an on-site resource officer. It's a risk but not likely unless they already had a gun. That's what the duress code is for if it's still in the safe.

(Hey, I may have just found my first possible use of smart guns... Neat)

Potential to hit other kids? Absolutely... Same as cops and other first responders.

The only way to make this work would be to have rigorous and regular training. I can't see any way to keep the group secret.

Most schools probably couldn't field a team or the cost...

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Response to Baconator (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 10:00 PM

Sophia4 (3,515 posts)

12. It is completely unrealistic.

 

The only answer. I repeat.
The only answer is to make the possession of weapons like the AR-15, the whole class of weapons a felony.

I visited my grandmother, the wife of a farmer, in the mid-1960s. She was joking about how, during WWII, they used to collect hemp and sell it so that the Navy could make rope out of them. She remembered exactly what a plant was worth, how much she had sold it for.

I had no idea what hemp or marijuana was. She had to explain to me what the joke was about.

But things that are at one time perfectly legal even valuable can be made illegal. Happened to hemp plants. And in some states, marijuana and hemp are again legal.

We need to make these horrifyingly dangerous instruments of mass death called automatic weapons illegal. No question about it in my mind.

I'm all for hunting rifles that are not automatic and don't kill people in droves. I like venison, love it in fact.

But no one needs one of these guns like an AR-15, and they should be outlawed.

Changing the age of eligibility to buy a gun would not have stopped the shooters in Las Vegas or at the night club in Florida.

And training teachers or others in the schools to use guns is a waste of money and the precious time of those trained. In addition, it probably would not prevent the loss of life that simply making the possession of such instruments of death a felony, a serious crime.

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Response to Sophia4 (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:33 AM

johnpowdy (116 posts)

21. I agree. Make it a felony. Total ban and confiscation of these killing machines is the only way

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Response to johnpowdy (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 03:25 AM

J_William_Ryan (1,500 posts)

28. Setting aside the politics of banning AR 15s,

their confiscation is problematic from a 4th and 5th Amendment standpoint – the Takings Clause of the 5th Amendment in particular.

Government may not take private property without due process and just compensation – gun owners would be at liberty to pursue court challenges with regard to each firearm the government wishes to confiscate, and even if the courts find for the government, hearings would have to be conducted for each firearm taken; that’s 300 million challenges, and 300 million hearings to determine just compensation, a process prohibitively burdensome.

And the 4th Amendment would require probable cause to issue a warrant to search a dwelling or other private property for the illegal firearms, an impossible task given the majority of the states have no firearm licensing/permit requirement, and private intrastate face-to-face sales where no background check or transaction records are required.

Current Second Amendment jurisprudence allows for the banning of AR 15s, but their confiscation absent due process and just compensation is not Constitutional.

The best that can be accomplished is the banning of AR 15s and the mandatory registering of such firearms by their owners, with the requirement that owners can only sell their AR to a licensed firearm dealer.

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Response to J_William_Ryan (Reply #28)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 06:40 AM

DetroitLegalBeagle (1,583 posts)

29. It's questionable as to whether the they can even be banned outright

A features ban similar to New York's SAFE Act doesn't seem to be a problem, but an outright ban of semi auto rifles might be. Heller invokes Miller's "in common use" clause, which with 10+ million AR15's alone, plus millions of other types of semi auto rifles in circulation, and with a industry of parts and accessories in existence to support that specific gun, it's very hard to argue these guns and types of guns aren't in common use. And while Heller leaves the door open to restrict "dangerous and unusual weapons" the problem with that is the "and unusual" part. Few would argue against the dangerous aspect of semi auto rifles, but there is little argument that they are unusual. Words have meaning when it comes to law and case law, and AR15's would likely fail the 2 pronged "dangerous AND unusual" part of Helle. This is just the consensus around my office now, not just my personal opinion.

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Response to Baconator (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 08:20 PM

skip fox (19,123 posts)

2. But if the average shooting last less than 5 minutes, is that enough time

to get to the safe, unlock it, retrieve the weapon and then find the shooter??

I don't see it.

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Response to skip fox (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 08:34 PM

Baconator (1,459 posts)

7. Depends...

Short of safes in every room (unlikely)... A responder may or may not get there in time...

There would be a deterrent effect I think.

The idea is as much about reducing the softness of a target as it is about actually responding.

A potential shooter would have to add that added layer of defense (however effective or ineffective ) it may be into their decision calculus.

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Response to Baconator (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 10:11 PM

Sophia4 (3,515 posts)

13. What the idea of having school personnel trained and armed in order to deter

 

would-be mass murderers ignores is the fact that school shooters, the gunman in Las Vegas and in the Florida nightclub are not in a rational state of mind.

They may or may not have shown signs of mental health problems before they shoot.

But often they are suicidal to begin with. Their driving force is to kill as many people as they can. If they know that people in the school are prepared and waiting for them, they will figure out who those people are an eliminate them first. That will give the school authorities a false sense of security.

I wish there were some other way, but the only way to deal with this is to take these instruments of death out of the marketplace. We need to make it a felony to possess an automatic gun or rifle of this sort.

Sorry.

Have you ever talked to a child who had shot someone?

I thought not.

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Response to Sophia4 (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 01:53 AM

Baconator (1,459 posts)

16. They were rational in the sense of understanding the consequences of their actions...

... risk and reward...

That's the rationality I'm talking about and the standard we use for deterrence.

BTW... A shooter on the hunt for X people who are spread out over an area to the exclusion of everyone else is a huge improvement over "kill everyone that moves"

None of this is a sure fire solution.. 100% and we're done...

All any idea can do is tip the percentages a few points one way or the other...

Also, I have no idea what you are talking about with your last two bits there...

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Response to Baconator (Reply #16)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:54 AM

Sophia4 (3,515 posts)

25. Many young people do not understand the risks and rewards of their conduct.

 

They act on impulse. They act from an irrational anger or sorrow.

They are irrational. That may be the standard "we" use for deterrence, but it does not work.

Think of people who become alcoholics or drug addicts. They usually know the risks and rewards but cannot resist their self-destructive conduct. Gun-lovers seem to be the same.

Australia banned guns and achieved a lot more than tip the percentages a few points.

New York State's gun death rate is pretty low. We should see what they are doing because they are doing something right.

Among the worst states for gun violence at least for the period covered by Wikipedia's page were red states including Alaska, Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

California and New York, as well as many other Democratic states are among the states with the least gun deaths.

https://www.safehome.org/resources/gun-laws-and-deaths/

This list shows most clearly how conservatives in conservative states pay the high price for failure to regulate guns.

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Response to Baconator (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 08:24 PM

Star Member Ilsa (60,842 posts)

3. I can't help but feel that if

we have to arm administrators and teachers, even if in hidden safes, it is a sign of failure as a civilized nation. It is tantamount to admitting that our society has given in to violence and more violence to protect children. It is a line that should never have to be crossed.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 09:14 PM

Baconator (1,459 posts)

10. I'll give you all of that...

... and yet here we are.

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Response to Baconator (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 08:29 PM

Star Member guillaumeb (42,641 posts)

5. And if school employees shoot someone,

will the District defend the employees? If the employee suffers PTSD as a result of shooting someone, will that employee be able to retire on disability?

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 08:30 PM

Baconator (1,459 posts)

6. Same standards as LE I suppose...

... but within a very limited legal jurisdiction and permissible circumstance.

They may even have to have some sort of limited "deputization" for legal purposes that only kicks in under those specific circumstances.

Insurance, cost, training... All very expensive...

It's a huge mess but at least doable in some places and circumstances I think...

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Response to Baconator (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:24 AM

Sophia4 (3,515 posts)

20. I suggest that you come to Los Angeles or Miami and visit a) the county hospitals

 

to see what these and other weapons do to a body and b) the Juvenile Halls and prisons and jails in these areas and talk to some children and adults for that matter who have actually shot guns at people.

The only way to Make America Safe Again is to require people to qualify in terms of age and personality, pass proficiency and safety tests and buy insurance before they walk away with guns. And then we need to limit the kinds of guns that people can buy or possess.

Gun-lovers argue that if we regulate the ownership of guns or outlaw certain guns then only criminals will have guns. They ignore the fact that if we regulate the ownership of guns and outlaw certain types of guns, then people who own those specific guns or own guns without permits are by definition criminals and can be stopped, arrested before they actually commit criminal acts. Plus, it will be easier to convict people who have those guns as criminals since by definition merely having certain guns or a gun without a permit is a criminal act.

And when I write this, I am fully aware of the Second Amendment, but I am also aware that when my mother was born, she did not have the right to vote. We amended the Constitution to give women including my mother the right to vote.

We can amend the Constitution if necessary to stop the killing.

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Response to Sophia4 (Reply #20)

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Response to Baconator (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 09:03 PM

Hoyt (54,770 posts)

8. So arming teachers gets shot down and NRA comes up with something else to preserve sickos' access

 

to more friggin gunz. Will gunners ever give up with the BS designed to keep more guns in the hands of sick people attracted to the damn things?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 09:13 PM

Baconator (1,459 posts)

9. As I said in the OP...

... if your goal is to remove or reduce guns above all else then this solution won't work for you...

If your goal is to reduce school shootings... This has pros and cons...

Cost, upkeep, morale and risk vs potential (and very hard to measure) deterrence

I do value your opinion though. It helps to get the perspective from someone on the other some of the law enforcement and security framework.



https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=45338

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Response to Baconator (Reply #9)

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Response to Post removed (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 01:55 AM

Baconator (1,459 posts)

17. You think way too much of yourself...

I just saw the reference in my last post and made a note...

No one cares what you did... Except for that felony bit.. That probably still counts...

Cheers

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Response to Baconator (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 10:15 PM

Adrahil (13,340 posts)

14. Sorry kids... no microscopes for the biology lab... we need new AR-15's. NT

 

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Response to Baconator (Original post)

Thu Feb 22, 2018, 10:27 PM

Cuthbert Allgood (4,370 posts)

15. So let's say I'm an authorized shooter and an event happens.

First I have to leave the kids in my control alone. In the middle of an active shooting. That sounds like a stupid idea, but, OK, good of the many and all. But I have to make sure they don't do anything stupid while I'm gone. Or get them to someone else who will care for them.

Then I need to get to the gun. Safely. So it's not just run there but make sure I don't get shot getting to the gun.

Then I need to open the safe and get the gun and ammunition.

Then I need to get to the shooter assuming I know where they are.

And you think I'm going to be able to do that in the average of 4 minutes that an active shooting event happens? Even in a small school, that's pretty optimistic.

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Response to Cuthbert Allgood (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 01:56 AM

Baconator (1,459 posts)

18. Percentages I admit...

Certainly not a one and done solution but frankly there isn't one...

Just improves odds and has its own pros and cons...

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Response to Baconator (Original post)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:13 AM

Star Member pnwmom (107,636 posts)

19. It's going to give people a false sense of security. I just heard on MSNBC

that in real life situations, with bullets flying, police only hit the target 18% of the time. And there's no reason to expect a teacher-with-training to do better than regular police.

We need, at a minimum, to put the assault weapons ban -- that we allowed to expire in 2005-- back into place; and to raise the minimum age to 21 everywhere.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #19)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:48 AM

johnpowdy (116 posts)

23. An Assault Weapons Ban is not enough

The next gun nut will use a semi-automatic hand gun or hunting rifle.

I agree that its a first step. Its a "soft" way of slowly working our way to a total ban of all firearms in this country

But I don't for a minute think its going to stop the killing and gun nut fetish

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Response to johnpowdy (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:54 AM

Star Member pnwmom (107,636 posts)

24. Yes, I agree. Semi-automatic hand guns, too.

I don't know what to do about hunting rifles. My husband (who hasn't hunted since he was a kid -- in a rural area, where they used to give vacation days during hunting season) has explained to me all the damage that a hunting rifle can do. I had no idea.

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Response to Baconator (Original post)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 02:46 AM

johnpowdy (116 posts)

22. What happens if the teacher carrying the gun drops it and a kid picks it up and starts shooting?

Scary thought

Also any attacker could just wrestle the teacher for it and start shooting

Guns do not belong in school. Period.

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Response to Baconator (Original post)

Fri Feb 23, 2018, 03:02 AM

Star Member dchill (34,920 posts)

27. Just place guns in obvious locations throughout a school...

like fire extinguishers! When you see someone who needs shot, just break glass!

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