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haele

(12,581 posts)
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 04:52 PM Feb 2018

All these comments about a "cowardly" armed School Resource Officer shows why....

... teachers shouldn't be armed and/or take down armed intruders.

What happens to an official police officer who does the same thing? Nothing. His (on edit, or her) Union protects him/her, and everyone says s/he was being smart or tactical, waiting for backup in a situation where s/he was outgunned. That's how similar situations are always presented in the press.

And that's reality. The very few times a teacher or school administrator has left the scene, gone out to their vehicle, acquired and used a firearm to control an angry, confused young shooter shows how the very common tactical retreat maneuver that can be used to assess the situation before applying firepower works better more times than not than to blindly charge into a firefight with non-combatants swarming around.

The amount of times a school resource officer has been injured or killed in such events shows how dangerous these live fire situations at schools are.

So, what happens if an armed teacher freezes, and kids are killed when "s/he could/should have stopped the armed intruder", or worse, s/he actually does act and a student is hurt or killed by the teacher's bullet in the crossfire?
That teacher's career is effectively ruined. No "waiting for backup" excuses. No "understandable accident under fire" excuses.
That teacher risks a 90% chance of being sued by grieving and angry parents justifiably looking for compensation, along with all sorts of outcry from the local media - and the Teacher's Union will not protect him or her when the school administration goes looking for a scapegoat to hang the casualties on.

No one cares about "tactics" or acceptable losses when a teacher is involved. The teacher's job, first and foremost, is about teaching, not policing.

Haele

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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All these comments about a "cowardly" armed School Resource Officer shows why.... (Original Post) haele Feb 2018 OP
The armed guard was probably quartz007 Feb 2018 #1
Not true MichMary Feb 2018 #3
You'll then provide us with specific policy and protocol of that county sheriff's office, yes? LanternWaste Feb 2018 #6
Don't know if there is a specific county MichMary Feb 2018 #12
You're moving your own goalposts. LanternWaste Feb 2018 #15
Huh? MichMary Feb 2018 #21
The post you are replying to is correct Cosmocat Feb 2018 #24
So you don't believe the BC Sheriff on why he was suspended ? lunasun Feb 2018 #28
If the armed guard didn't stop the gunman... PJMcK Feb 2018 #2
Which armed guard was that? MichMary Feb 2018 #7
Cruz was the wrong guy to have a gun. All of the "blame some guard" theories ignore the fact that FSogol Feb 2018 #10
I don't think MichMary Feb 2018 #14
Well, I'm thinking of the SRO PJMcK Feb 2018 #13
If you think that I support the idea of MichMary Feb 2018 #19
Nope, that's not what I think PJMcK Feb 2018 #20
You, too! MichMary Feb 2018 #22
Ask the President exboyfil Feb 2018 #8
Decades of right wing skull fucking Cosmocat Feb 2018 #25
Teachers love students more than quartz007 Feb 2018 #29
I'm beginning to think their allegations are simply the new talking points LanternWaste Feb 2018 #4
It is obvious. They want to blame some outgunned cop instead of Cruz and the shit society that FSogol Feb 2018 #11
+1 quartz007 Feb 2018 #30
The sheriff lambasting the SRO is the same guy lambasting the NRA. B2G Feb 2018 #16
Shared narratives are never exclusive. Try again. LanternWaste Feb 2018 #17
Are you as upset with everyone on that thread B2G Feb 2018 #23
Okay, I will repost my comment made elsewhere as it pertains...but will bold a different part poboy2 Feb 2018 #5
Yup, more guns, more chance of someone shot by accident njhoneybadger Feb 2018 #9
That's not what the union says. pintobean Feb 2018 #18
If the armed school officer was there to protect the students ... left-of-center2012 Feb 2018 #26
The Fine Line Between Hero And Zero..... global1 Feb 2018 #27
Well, he WAS suspended. cwydro Feb 2018 #31
 

quartz007

(1,216 posts)
1. The armed guard was probably
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 04:56 PM
Feb 2018

just following the rule book. Which would be to protect students outside near him where he was.

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
3. Not true
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:02 PM
Feb 2018

Since Columbine, the protocols have changed.

In that case, law enforcement set up a perimeter and waited far too long to enter the building. Until they entered, the killers were free to do whatever they liked inside. One victim (who probably could have been saved) bled to death in spite of the fact that a sign had been placed in a window to alert people as to the teacher's condition and location.

Things changed -bigly- as a result of the mistakes made during Columbine. Now, LEO are supposed to enter ASAP to save lives, rather than just deal with the aftermath.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
6. You'll then provide us with specific policy and protocol of that county sheriff's office, yes?
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:03 PM
Feb 2018

You'll then provide us with specific policy and protocol of that county sheriff's office, yes?

Else it seems your premise, unsupported by any evidence, is simply another guess made to assist particular narratives.

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
12. Don't know if there is a specific county
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:09 PM
Feb 2018

or school district policy, or if it's simply a best practice, but here is an article with details:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/florida-school-shooting-columbine-lessons/index.html


FTA:

The tactic, known in law enforcement circles as rapid deployment involving the first officer at the scene, began in earnest after the Columbine shooting.
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
15. You're moving your own goalposts.
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:14 PM
Feb 2018

You're moving your own goalposts. You emphatically stated "protocols had changed" with direct implication it applied to this situation. You further listed a number of these alleged changes; again, as it applies this particular mass killing.

Great allegations, and no objective evidence to support it. Yet you tell others "not true". How ironic.

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
21. Huh?
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:25 PM
Feb 2018

More FTA:

The lessons learned from Columbine led the US Justice Department and other federal agencies to partially fund an active shooter program known as Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training, or ALERRT, Schweit wrote.
The training, which was developed by the San Marcos, Texas, Police Department and the Hays County, Texas, Sheriff's Department and adopted by Texas State University in San Marcos, includes a 16-hour course that "prepares first responders to isolate, distract and end the threat when an active shooter is engaged," according to Schweit.


The DOJ was involved. Any local law enforcement departments that didn't adopt these policies was deficient. I don't know if there was any established policy in Broward County, (and I don't know how to search for it) but if there wasn't, there should have been.

I'm pretty sure they would have been aware of the changes.

Cosmocat

(14,543 posts)
24. The post you are replying to is correct
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:37 PM
Feb 2018

Pre columbine vs post combine protocols.

It probably differs a bit state to state, but in Pa, law enforcement protocol is what was described.

Specific to this situation, his supervisor has publicly said his job was to go into the building and kill the shooter.

I know for a fact, the expectation for our SRO is that if this type of situation occurred, he would be expected to immediately seek to engage the threat ...

PJMcK

(21,921 posts)
2. If the armed guard didn't stop the gunman...
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 04:58 PM
Feb 2018

...what makes anyone think a teacher would stop him?

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
7. Which armed guard was that?
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:04 PM
Feb 2018

The SRO (cop) who was armed stayed outside.

The unarmed security guard, and assistant football coach, threw himself between the gunman and a couple of students.

IMHO, the wrong guy had the gun.

FSogol

(45,360 posts)
10. Cruz was the wrong guy to have a gun. All of the "blame some guard" theories ignore the fact that
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:07 PM
Feb 2018

Cruz should not have had an AR15.

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
14. I don't think
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:13 PM
Feb 2018

anyone is blaming the guard specifically or exclusively, but he was the last line of defense.

There is plenty of blame to go around: CPS, which had made numerous visits; the FBI, which ignored specific threats; school officials, who shuffled him back and forth between alternative and regular schools; and, of course, the shooter himself.

He should NEVER have had ANY gun at all. Let me repeat: He should never have had a gun!!!!!! There were plenty of opportunities to stop this, and all of them failed.

PJMcK

(21,921 posts)
13. Well, I'm thinking of the SRO
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:12 PM
Feb 2018

My point is simply that there was a professional at the school and he was ineffectual at stopping the gunman. Should he have been stationed within the building? I don't know but I don't need to get into the discussion about whether he was right or wrong; I've read your other posts on this issue, MichMary, so I know where you stand.

How would a teacher be more effective than a trained LEO?

One other thought: Who would want their child's teacher to leave the kids in a classroom while an active shooter is roaming the school?

This entire issue is absurd.

MichMary

(1,714 posts)
19. If you think that I support the idea of
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:20 PM
Feb 2018

arming teachers, you are wrong. Dead wrong. I think that's about the dumbest thing I ever heard. It's an invitation for every conceivable bad thing to happen--dead cops, dead teachers, dead innocent bystanders, etc.

But--my feeling is that if there is going to be an armed LEO there, then he/she should be prepared to do his/her job, which is to protect lives. If he/she isn't going to do it, then get someone who will.

There is a serious trail of people NOT doing their jobs in this case, the SRO being only the last. He lost his job, or was allowed to retire, but--everyone along the way, social workers who knew he wanted a gun but decided he wasn't a danger (huh?) FBI agents who couldn't do a simple search on the guy's actual name, school authorities who shuffled him around, and many, many others should also lose their jobs, or be sued in civil court, and if there was any way to prosecute them criminally I'd be okay with that, too.

He should never have had a gun, and if the laws preventing mentally ill people had been followed he wouldn't have had it.

PJMcK

(21,921 posts)
20. Nope, that's not what I think
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:24 PM
Feb 2018

You and I completely agree that arming teachers is insane and dangerously ineffective.

My comment to you was that I have read your opinions about the SRO at the school. That's all.

Have a good weekend, MichMary.

exboyfil

(17,857 posts)
8. Ask the President
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:04 PM
Feb 2018

That was some speech today. Asking for greater accountability from untrained teachers over a trained LEO.

 

quartz007

(1,216 posts)
29. Teachers love students more than
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 06:39 PM
Feb 2018

an armed guard who usually does not know students by names.

Another VERY IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE would be, teachers are present inside class rooms or inside building, whereas the guard could be anywhere, in this case he was outside the building.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
4. I'm beginning to think their allegations are simply the new talking points
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:02 PM
Feb 2018

I'm beginning to think their allegations are simply the new talking points designed to take the focus off gun violence and the heat off the NRA.

FSogol

(45,360 posts)
11. It is obvious. They want to blame some outgunned cop instead of Cruz and the shit society that
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:08 PM
Feb 2018

allows people like Cruz to carry guns.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
17. Shared narratives are never exclusive. Try again.
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:17 PM
Feb 2018

Shared narratives are never exclusive.

Try again.

Maybe a another disturbing health crisis at a marathon.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
23. Are you as upset with everyone on that thread
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:32 PM
Feb 2018

who were lambasting her decision to run as you are with my for simply saying she should have worn black running tights?

Because it seems like you have a moderately unhealthy obsession with that whole thread. Or maybe just me.

 

poboy2

(2,078 posts)
5. Okay, I will repost my comment made elsewhere as it pertains...but will bold a different part
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:03 PM
Feb 2018

First of all, I am inclined to say 'I called it' (the guy fleeing/no-show).
I had suspected it the very next day in fact. I did not post or comment as such because I KNOW this place would attack me for this speculation. Turned out to be correct though.

The above is not posted to say I told you so or 'called it', but to say WHY I suspected it and it gets to the fundamental point.

The fact that he was not counted among the dead was the main reason for my suspicions.

So, I assumed, and I think its a safe assumption, that if he did go in, he'd be among the dead.

I initially couched this suspicion in the scenario that 'would an armed teacher be liable for 'cutting and running' from a hailstorm of bullets? If the lunatics arm the teachers, is this failure a prosecutable offense? Whats the accountability? Same goes for this guy.

He's got to be fired of course, but how many among us (armed teachers in this case) would rush into certain death?

Would you then put teachers on trial for failure?

========

armed teachers is a nutty idea

 

pintobean

(18,101 posts)
18. That's not what the union says.
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:20 PM
Feb 2018
The union head said he didn’t want to second-guess Peterson — but strongly suggested that failing to take on Cruz was a mistake.

“We have to act, even if that means risking our lives to save many, many more lives. I would demand that from our union members,” said Bell, still a working deputy.

“You’re listening to an execution every time you hear the rifle shot.”


https://nypost.com/2018/02/22/deputy-who-didnt-stop-florida-shooting-thinks-he-did-a-good-job/?utm_source=twitter_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site%20buttons&utm_campaign=site%20buttons

left-of-center2012

(34,195 posts)
26. If the armed school officer was there to protect the students ...
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:41 PM
Feb 2018

... and when the need arose,
he didn't help the kids,
why are so many defending him?

I even heard someone on TV say :

"Well, he didn't know the students. If he knew them, he'd have done something".

global1

(25,168 posts)
27. The Fine Line Between Hero And Zero.....
Fri Feb 23, 2018, 05:41 PM
Feb 2018

If this same security guard ran into the building with his pistol to take out the shooter and was immediately killed by the shooter with his AR-15 - he would have been hailed as a hero. A dead one - but a hero.

Because he maybe realized he was outgunned and entering the school might have been akin to suicide - he has been labeled a zero.

A fine line.

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