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blur256

(979 posts)
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 08:21 PM Mar 2018

So a weird thing happened at church today...

I thought about posting this in the religion discussion group, but I feel like this has less to do with religion and more to do with society. Anyway, my wife is a minister (at the moment in charge of education) at a UCC church.

We have a varied congregation in terms of political beliefs, but I feel like we lean more liberal than not. That being said, our outreach committee hosted two dreamers today for a forum after church. It was a very enlightening discussion about what it is like to be in this country undocumented as a young person and growing up here.

In fact, it was such a good conversation, that one of our staunchest Republican members got up up to say that she thought how we treated dreamers was akin to modern day slavery and she hoped that we found a resolution to keep them here as soon as possible. My wife and I looked at each other like, damn!

But right after that, a man that was unfamiliar to us, got up and asked the question, "So how do you keep illegals from coming in the country like you did?" Everyone was a little taken aback. This man has never been our church before. Which is fine. This talk was somewhat advertised to the community. But what I thought was odd was his explanation for being there.

So our church has both a main building and a meetinghouse (Which was the original church and town meetinghouse from literally the 1700s). We hold worship at the meetinghouse, but all other functions happen in the main building. No one saw this man at church service but all of a sudden he showed up at coffee hour in the main building right before the talk with the dreamers.

He walked out behind my wife and I to the meetinghouse for the talk after coffee hour and sat in the pew right next to us. I, being the ministers wife I am, politely said hello as we walked next door. He barely replied and sat in the pew right next to us. To say that he seemed out of place makes me feel judgy but truthful all at the same time. Most of us were sitting there in our Sunday clothes while he sat there with dark glasses, jeans, t-shirt, and work boots. Keep in mind, I really don't judge, but I just got a bad feeling.

Being that I had an uneasy feeling, I made sure to glance his way whenever time allowed. He was on his phone a good majority of the talk. He asked that one question at the end of the talk, and then our minister approached him afterward, asking him if he enjoyed it and the usual questions. He dismissed her pretty quickly. He then approached the moderator of the talk (a very good church member, staunch liberal, and writer) and the man tried to get into a heated argument with him, although I could tell the church member was having none of it.

Long story long, the man told our other church member that he was passing through from Ohio and just happened to stop in and see there was an immigration talk and decided to check it out. Am I wrong to not buy that? The gut looked like he was out for trouble. My wife and I discussed this after without saying a word the whole time. We both were concerned about him and worried he could have a gun. Is this the world we live in? Or were we right to be concerned? None of this seemed right to us at all. I would love some input.

40 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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So a weird thing happened at church today... (Original Post) blur256 Mar 2018 OP
Trust your gut, trust your intuition, always. fierywoman Mar 2018 #1
Thank you blur256 Mar 2018 #2
Two votes for ...Trust your gut, trust your intuition, always.. Stuart G Mar 2018 #3
Thank you as well blur256 Mar 2018 #4
Absolutely - my exact advice, pretty much word for word. RandomAccess Mar 2018 #25
After 66 years, from my perspective, the only time things went terribly wrong was fierywoman Mar 2018 #31
Me too. Big time. RandomAccess Mar 2018 #33
+1000 stonecutter357 Mar 2018 #37
Sounds like an undercover ICE agent Generic Brad Mar 2018 #5
Gee thanks... blur256 Mar 2018 #6
But me too blur256 Mar 2018 #8
I would have definitely been concerned. woodsprite Mar 2018 #7
I appreciate your reply blur256 Mar 2018 #10
I'd have started openly snapping photos of him... WestMichRad Mar 2018 #9
Thank you blur256 Mar 2018 #11
If you want to be sneaky, pnwmom Mar 2018 #17
Oh that's good blur256 Mar 2018 #18
Asking for an ID would have been an excellent idea. LeftInTX Mar 2018 #12
I hope it wasn't ICE LeftInTX Mar 2018 #13
I really hope not too blur256 Mar 2018 #14
On second thought, if it was ICE, he probably wouldn't have started arguing. LeftInTX Mar 2018 #15
Good to know blur256 Mar 2018 #16
Asking for ID strikes me as terrible. PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2018 #19
That's fair blur256 Mar 2018 #20
Think about it. PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2018 #21
Agreed blur256 Mar 2018 #22
Thank you. PoindexterOglethorpe Mar 2018 #38
Asking for ID also strikes me as directly counter . . . markpkessinger Mar 2018 #36
Probably from nearby. May have tried to get like-minded Ilsa Mar 2018 #23
I would be very leery Clarity2 Mar 2018 #24
Keep your radar screen activated. magicarpet Mar 2018 #26
Trust your gut, trust your intuition, and I hope someone got his license plate... Hekate Mar 2018 #27
You are correct. ICE? A provocateur of some sort? Just belligerent crazy person? Stay safe please. joanbarnes Mar 2018 #28
He seems like a strange person, but not something you should be concerned with. bearsfootball516 Mar 2018 #29
Does your church have security cameras? Louis1895 Mar 2018 #30
Trust your gut CanonRay Mar 2018 #32
Someone should have followed him out and discreetly taken a picture of his license plate. williesgirl Mar 2018 #34
You are right to be worried MaryMagdaline Mar 2018 #35
I would only do talks for outreach on subjects like that via Skype or FaceTime anonymously lunasun Mar 2018 #39
He sounds like he stuck out like Dylann Roof at Mother Emanuel's Church. KitSileya Mar 2018 #40

blur256

(979 posts)
2. Thank you
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 08:28 PM
Mar 2018

I'm honestly a little worried about my wife going to work tomorrow. But she must. And she promised to talk to the senior minister about what happened.

 

RandomAccess

(5,210 posts)
25. Absolutely - my exact advice, pretty much word for word.
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 11:15 PM
Mar 2018

ALWAYS trust your instincts. Always, always, always.

And if you're wrong -- that's better than being wrong about NOT trusting your instincts.

fierywoman

(7,679 posts)
31. After 66 years, from my perspective, the only time things went terribly wrong was
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 11:32 PM
Mar 2018

when I over-rode/ignored the gut feelings! EVERY time!

woodsprite

(11,908 posts)
7. I would have definitely been concerned.
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 08:47 PM
Mar 2018

We have attend a very small old church in a small town, with the same set-up as yours - a meeting house, plus a Christian Ed building. Our congregation numbers about 160, I would say about 80% are liberals, or at least FDR Democrats. We're all familiar with each other, plus, we know pretty much everyone in town, but like you, we do have programs open to the community (today's presentation was Net Zero Waste).

The clothes wouldn't have triggered a reaction with any of us, but it would have definitely drawn attention when he was trying to get an argument going. Are any of your congregants law enforcement, military, etc. Someone you could have alerted if the situation got out of hand?

My family is in the choir loft most Sundays, so we don't see visitors unless they sit in the middle or far side. I will say that most visitors are welcomed very warmly, if they were stand-offish, it might have drawn scrutiny.

Maybe as a church, you could discuss this incident and come up with a plan.

Yes. Unfortunately, this is the world we live in now.



blur256

(979 posts)
10. I appreciate your reply
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 09:01 PM
Mar 2018

Unfortunately, to my knowledge, we don't have any leo or military personnel in our congregation. And honestly, I don't care about clothing, but it just seemed out of place. We have visitors on a regular basis and there has been only one other person we felt weird about. And he dressed the part of normal church congregant. My wife and I were worried he was an abuser because of the way his wife and children acted. And we reported that as well. It just really sucks that we feel so uneasy in a place where we should feel secure.

WestMichRad

(1,318 posts)
9. I'd have started openly snapping photos of him...
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 08:55 PM
Mar 2018

... and asked for his ID. If he behaves suspiciously and/or is uncooperative, show him the door.

Wearing dark glasses throughout and not being willing to engage in conversation, that constitutes suspicious behavior, IMO.

blur256

(979 posts)
11. Thank you
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 09:03 PM
Mar 2018

And agreed. I wish I had thought of it to take pics at the time but we were focused on the people actually speaking . Besides me keeping an uneasy eye.

pnwmom

(108,973 posts)
17. If you want to be sneaky,
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 09:19 PM
Mar 2018

keep a box of candy or some treat around for someone to offer to odd new attendees.

Then take a picture of the creep with the gift giver. Then you have a photo or two without arousing suspicions.

LeftInTX

(25,201 posts)
12. Asking for an ID would have been an excellent idea.
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 09:08 PM
Mar 2018

I would have snapped pics, but a business card would have been much more helpful.

blur256

(979 posts)
14. I really hope not too
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 09:14 PM
Mar 2018

Luckily both of the speakers are covered for the moment by DACA, but no one knows how long it will last. They both talked about how they make no plans for their futures just in case

LeftInTX

(25,201 posts)
15. On second thought, if it was ICE, he probably wouldn't have started arguing.
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 09:15 PM
Mar 2018

He probably would have left before he there was a chance to interact with the congregation.
Or he would have just agreed that he enjoyed the forum and not drawn attention himself. (At least that is what most agents would do)

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,839 posts)
19. Asking for ID strikes me as terrible.
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 10:16 PM
Mar 2018

People rightly don't think they are required to show ID to cops just because they're walking in the street. And we sure as anything shouldn't have to show ID to attend a church.

I would be genuinely outraged if asked to show ID in such a situation.

Simply engaging the man, asking his name, where he's from, and so on in a friendly manner would have been better.

I would hardly assume he's ICE. It does look like he was hoping to stir up some kind of trouble and was perhaps taken aback that everything had been so low key and friendly. Certainly his question about keeping other illegals out is disturbing, but unfortunately a lot of people think that way.

To think he's going to be back to cause trouble seems like a huge leap.

blur256

(979 posts)
20. That's fair
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 10:21 PM
Mar 2018

And I get what you are saying. I like being nondescript and low key. I hate questioning People, but we do have to be careful. But I would also not ask for id. I would rather engage as you said

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,839 posts)
21. Think about it.
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 10:29 PM
Mar 2018

If you were visiting some other church, wouldn't you think being asked for ID was pretty strange?

If you were there for nefarious reasons, you'd really be outraged.

I don't mind showing my ID when I cash a check at my bank, because I'm not there often enough to expect the tellers will recognize me. Or that if I ask for a senior discount I'm asked to show proof of age. Alas, that never happens any more.

But to show ID at a church? No.

markpkessinger

(8,392 posts)
36. Asking for ID also strikes me as directly counter . . .
Mon Mar 5, 2018, 12:15 AM
Mar 2018

. . . to the Christian tradition of welcoming all (or, well, most). And I have a hard time envisioning where in the four Gospels Jesus would have asked for someone's ID.

Ilsa

(61,690 posts)
23. Probably from nearby. May have tried to get like-minded
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 10:42 PM
Mar 2018

friends or internet forum buddies to come so they could take over the conversation, harass the dreamers, etc.

Follow your gut feelings.

Clarity2

(1,009 posts)
24. I would be very leery
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 10:48 PM
Mar 2018

A guy named Aaron Nevins showed up in Southold on LI, put up a website...pretending to be a grassroots organizer for the area...tried to create dissension. Turns out he had connections to Guccifer 2.0 and Roger Stone and had no connection to long island, though claimed he lived there. A lot of hijinks are going to go on more than ever now. People need to keep up their skepticism radar. https://www.newsday.com/long-island/politics/florida-political-operative-generates-mystery-in-southold-1.13935700

magicarpet

(14,143 posts)
26. Keep your radar screen activated.
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 11:15 PM
Mar 2018

Very screwy times we live in right now.

The friendly candy dish - guest book photo shoot is a nice touch. Get the car color, model, and license number too if possible.

Glad you shared your story to familiarize and alert what to look out for as far as odd events. As 11/2018 approaches we need to network and communicate about these type of events.

Dirty players we are dealing with and they are bound to get very angry as we proceed to shut them down and reclaim some of the power they robbed is of.

Hekate

(90,616 posts)
27. Trust your gut, trust your intuition, and I hope someone got his license plate...
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 11:15 PM
Mar 2018

He was deliberately abrasive in clothing and manner. He wasn't some humble blue-collar worker walking in to partake of the message of Jesus -- he was actively resisting it. Why the shades indoors? What was he doing on the phone the whole time, aside from being rude? Reporting on you to some, ah, club he belongs to?

And yes, this is the world we live in.

Stay safe.

bearsfootball516

(6,374 posts)
29. He seems like a strange person, but not something you should be concerned with.
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 11:18 PM
Mar 2018

I can’t imagine you’ll ever see or hear from him again.

Louis1895

(768 posts)
30. Does your church have security cameras?
Sun Mar 4, 2018, 11:32 PM
Mar 2018

If it does, you might want to save the tape. If not, you might want to get some cameras. These days one cannot be too careful. Also, if other churches or organizations have similar events, you might want to compare notes.

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
39. I would only do talks for outreach on subjects like that via Skype or FaceTime anonymously
Mon Mar 5, 2018, 01:15 AM
Mar 2018

You still learn & they are able to relay but it would diffuse a lot of issues, perhaps including the Ohio man but more likely any ICE interests
Ohio man once he realized he was not actually in the room with them he may have lost interest although you said he tried to debate those hosting the event so maybe not. Stay safe

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
40. He sounds like he stuck out like Dylann Roof at Mother Emanuel's Church.
Mon Mar 5, 2018, 01:57 AM
Mar 2018

And I would trust my gut, and think safety first.

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