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Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 09:23 AM Mar 2018

Independents and Our Binary Political System

Around the world politics is seldom binary. Though America may officially have a multi-party system rather than a two party one, national alternatives to the Democratic or Republican parties have about as much chance to actually participate in governance here as an opposition party does in Russia. Internationally most people get no choice since most nations are functionally one party states like Russia, if not officially one party states like China. But when people are allowed real choices they seldom are satisfied with having just two options.

Our Democracy is old, as these things are measured. The American Revolution was cutting edge stuff – back in 1776, but we are out of step and behind the times now. We no longer live in a Coke or Pepsi world. Unless you fanatically believe in American exceptionalism, it is ludicrous to believe that we have democracy right and everyone else has it wrong. Americans, as human beings, are not radically different by nature than Canadians, the British, the French or pretty much any other people where democracies flourish. We are not hard wired to prefer binary choices when most everyone else wants a fuller menu to pick from. Canadians currently have four major parties to choose between. The British have five. The French have at least 8, depending on where you draw the line. The 2015 Israeli elections seated members from 17 different parties in their Knesset. Even Mexico, long a bastion of one party rule, now has three major national parties and several smaller ones that those three frequently enter into coalitions with.

American voters are essentially forced to fit into a two party system because our electoral system is structured to punish alternative political challenges to the dominant duopoly. No I don't believe “our two major political parties are the same”. But neither do I believe that confining the public to a binary choice adequately offers expression to a multiplicity of viewpoints and differing personal priorities. Americans have elevated “lesser evil” voting into a national model, because voting for one's ideal choice is increasingly equated (for good reason) with allowing your worst fear to emerge triumphant instead. And so voters in America adopted to having either vanilla or chocolate allegiances, but that adaptation is becoming increasingly uncomfortable for many. A plurality of Americans now identify with neither of our major parties, and that bloc grows quickly by percentage as the age of voters polled lessens.

Most of us here choose to be Democrats. I for one do. But do we profess loyalty to the Democratic Party because it nearly always embodies our deepest values, or instead because we know we risk being politically disenfranchised if we don't associate ourselves with a viable political vehicle? Put me in that latter camp. Call it short sighted, or call it prophetic, but fewer and fewer Americans view politics in either of the aforementioned ways, and the ranks of those who labor within the Democratic Party in America continues to shrink. Love it, hate it, fear or welcome it, the trend lines are unmistakable. Here on DU we frequently rant about insufficient loyalty being shown to the Democratic Party, out in the general public people more often rant about how both parties are unworthy of their loyalty.

In our political system, third parties pose problems. We here tend to view their candidates as hopeless narcissists running for offices they have no chance of winning, stealing votes away from those who actually can win. In a typical election they are simply ignored. In a tight election they get labeled as spoilers and blamed for throwing elections to those we fiercely oppose. That's not what happens though in Canada, the UK, Germany, India, Israel, France, Mexico etc. etc. etc. In those nations it is widely understood that voters can't be stuffed into one of two boxes and personally blamed if they don't coexist comfortably with forced binary choices.

In the vast majority of the world's democracies people are accustomed to coalition governments. Parties that contest for election against each other frequently enter into negotiations once the votes are counted out of which some reach agreement to form a new government together. They do so by hammering out ground rules about the priorities which the government taking office will pursue. They don't pretend that everyone on “their side” suddenly all belong to the same political party. They don't live in a George W. Bush reality where everyone has to either be with them or against them, which is the ultimate extension of binary politics. Party leaders from the largest party in a newly formed coalition government don't vilify ministers from other parties in it for showing insufficient loyalty to the largest party's internal platform. None the less they all remain overall allies despite real differences continuing to exist between them.

In my opinion actual multi-party coalition governments more closely reflect the prevailing viewpoints of the populous of a nation at any moment in time better than a system that offers voters a choice between two supposedly big tent political parties. Of course it is also my opinion that all swords should be turned to plowshares, but my opinion doesn't dictate reality here nor anywhere else. So America has a two party system even though Americans increasingly don't like it. I can't blame them for not liking it though I still pursue politics through the Democratic Party. More Americans are Independents than Republicans. More Americans are Independents than Democrats. It is their right to be neither a Democrat nor a Republican, and increasingly they are exercising that right. Does that therefore mean that Independents can not/ should not have their views directly represented in Congress or the White House? Must they pick only one party to express criticism of in order to fully participate in our Democracy? If they don't in all cases support our own party, can they never literally be our allies?

In short, does anyone doubt the cards are stacked to favor those willing to work politically from inside one of two parties rather than outside of both? The fact that the word “bi-partisan” serves as secular shorthand for nonpartisan should serve as a good clue. In many states those who refuse to identify as either a Republican or a Democrat have no say in deciding which two Americans get granted a viable path to the Presidency. They must pick between them every four years lest they “throw their vote away” in the eyes of major party partisans. Political parties are indeed vehicles for ideologies, but they also become entrenched bureaucracies. When only one or two can defacto control government over time spans lasting a century, their institutional instinct for self preservation is ingrained into our very politics, and big time influence peddlers know where to lay down roots.

I don't know what the solution is to this problem or even whether many of you agree that there is a problem with bi-partisan politics at all. I see most of the other world democracies providing multiple viable vehicles for political representation, not simply two. Most of the people we call Independents here in America find or form viable alternative political parties to belong to in other major democracies. It is wrong to expect our Independents to mimic broad loyalty to a big tent party line. And it's crazy to expect Independents to confine their electoral involvement to endorsing/voting for one of two major party candidates each November, to then faithfully stand behind them.

Many of us are upset that an Independent, Bernie Sanders, ran for President as a Democrat challenging a Democrat in the Democratic primaries, before bowing out of the race and reverting to an Independent status once he failed to win the Democratic Party nomination. Many of us were also upset that Ralph Nader and later Jill Stein ran for President in General Elections as a Green – thereby splitting progressive votes when it really counted. We don't want Democrats challenged by third party candidates in November. We don't want Democrats challenged by Independents in Democratic Primaries. We want Independents to all vote Democratic in general elections, for the candidates that Democrats alone get to choose . Yes, we are free to want that and even to argue for that, but we still remain in the minority, one that becomes smaller every day.

30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Independents and Our Binary Political System (Original Post) Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 OP
This isn't that complicated. Adrahil Mar 2018 #1
Repugs are masters at falling in line Freddie Mar 2018 #3
This isn't that complicated either Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #4
FFS... it's not a lecture. Adrahil Mar 2018 #6
"The winner here are going to be those who figure out how to win in this system" Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #7
The first step is easy. Adrahil Mar 2018 #9
People who are not members of your party do not typically act 100% as if they were Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #21
Our system is not set up for third parties Freddie Mar 2018 #2
Yes, that is the shape of longer term fixes. Not on the immediate horizon. Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #5
Not blasting Bernie Freddie Mar 2018 #8
We're on the same page. I battled against that mindset you speak of during the 2016 General Election Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #10
That's a recurring theme of your messaging in this thread. LanternWaste Mar 2018 #28
Just found an OP I wrote last year where I had done some research on this Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #29
Recommended. H2O Man Mar 2018 #11
Bernie did excite students NewJeffCT Mar 2018 #12
In many world democracies a leading politial party primarily sets the national agenda Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #13
It would be interesting to compare those who are satisfied with the current system el_bryanto Mar 2018 #14
Case in point - How the GOP controls Texas dalton99a Mar 2018 #15
Yep. And the question remains... Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #16
Wow Proud Liberal Dem Mar 2018 #18
DURec leftstreet Mar 2018 #17
So. ismnotwasm Mar 2018 #19
My points were basic Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #20
The system isn't strictly binary because of primaries. Jim Lane Mar 2018 #22
Primaries are becoming the only place where we can choose between candidates Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #23
I don't see "closed" primaries as a big problem. Jim Lane Mar 2018 #25
Well I do in fact live in NY, so that might color my views... Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #26
Party identification continues to fall. alarimer Mar 2018 #24
And that is why I chose to write about it. Tom Rinaldo Mar 2018 #27
I think the sheer number of nonvoters is also important. alarimer Mar 2018 #30
 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
1. This isn't that complicated.
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 09:35 AM
Mar 2018

The Presidency is determined by a majority of the electoral college, not a plurality. If not one wins a majority of the EC, the House of Representatives determines who is President. And oh yeah, the Speaker of the House is elected by the House itself.

In other words, our political system favors a two-party system. And, surprise, surprise, the two major parties aren't particularly interested in ceeding that power, particularly the one that has figured out how to gerrymander districts sufficiently to rule despite a minority of support.

This isn't news. And we better some to understand it as the Republicans have, or we will be doomed to permanent minority status.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
4. This isn't that complicated either
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 09:42 AM
Mar 2018

Fewer and fewer Americans seemed moved by the arguments in your lecture to simply fall in line with the Democratic Party, regardless of how persuasive you believe the case for doing so is. I will argue that by choosing to run within the Democratic Party nominating structure, Bernie Sanders brought new relevancy to the Democratic Party to millions of Americans who had ceased to identify with it precisely because, not despite, the fact that Senator Sanders was an Independent. I believe both Democrats and Independents need to re-envision ways and means to politically cooperate.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
6. FFS... it's not a lecture.
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 09:52 AM
Mar 2018

It's the fucking reality of our electoral system.

The winner here are going to be those who figure out how to win in this system. HINT: lately it's been the GrOPers. By a lot. The Sandernistas are MASTERS at fucking kidding themselves.

I don't object to Bernie wanting to work within the Democratic party. I object to him wanting have his cake and eat it too. This is a winner-take-all world, and Bernie is half-assing it, and so are some of his supporters.

He (and they) need to understand that what matters FIRST is winning and taking control of the reins of power, not Bernie's pick and choose endorsements. EVERY seat matters, not just those Bernie thinks meet his standards. By the way, Lake Home Bernie, where the fuck are your tax returns?

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
7. "The winner here are going to be those who figure out how to win in this system"
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 10:07 AM
Mar 2018

We agree on that. I believe that we as Democratic activists are failing in that regard when we can not find a more constructive approach to building a winning majority than continually prosecuting an electoral case of transgressions against the political figure who won the strong loyalty of the majority of younger left of center voters.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
9. The first step is easy.
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 10:29 AM
Mar 2018

Vote for every democrat on the GE ticket.

Easy.

Next step is easy: Don't damn with feint praise. Bernie's "support" for Hillary Clinton in the 2016 election was weak sauce. More than once I heard him dodge a question about his support for Hillary Clinton by simply pivoting to his message that Donald Trump had to be beaten.

That right there is what I mean by half-assing it. I never really understood the cult of personality around this man, but for those who do hang on his every word, that sends a message that voting FOR her is not what he is doing.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
21. People who are not members of your party do not typically act 100% as if they were
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 05:22 PM
Mar 2018

If Democrats made up a literal majority of voters we could win elections with the support of Democrats alone. We don't. We can't. I am glad that Sanders, as a non member of the Democratic Party, chose not to run in the General Election as an Independent and instead endorsed our candidate after failing to secure our nomination. Faint praise may be half asssed and weak when literally coming from inside your own party, but coming from those outside of it it remains significant guidance to those who are non aligned and faced with a binary choice. In essence that is how coalition politics now functions in America, and if we can master that better than the Republicans can, we will usually end up victorious in general elections.

Freddie

(9,259 posts)
2. Our system is not set up for third parties
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 09:38 AM
Mar 2018

We would need to change to runoff voting or ranked choice voting, neither of which I see happening any time soon.
Also, if a third party wants to be taken seriously, they need to work from the ground up. Run for school board, city council, etc. Don't just show up every 4 years and be a spoiler.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
5. Yes, that is the shape of longer term fixes. Not on the immediate horizon.
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 09:51 AM
Mar 2018

Under our current system it has been proven time and time again that it is virtually impossible for a third party to build from the bottom up to a position that can challenge one of the two institutionally entrenched parties. That has not succeeded in 150 years. Sometimes a movement centered around an individual can briefly emerge, but those movements are not sustainable beyond the allure of that individual. So It makes sense to me that few Americans have taken seriously the prospect of building up a third party under our current circumstances.

I would have blasted Bernie Sanders had he chosen to run in the General Election as a third party candidate or as an Independent. Still he gets blasted anyway for not being a good Democrat after only running in the Democratic primaries. But the bottom line is the American public is turning away from loyalty toward any one political party. That is most manifest in younger generations. Not facing this fact is equivalent to an Ostrich burying its head in the sand at the sign of a threat.

Freddie

(9,259 posts)
8. Not blasting Bernie
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 10:27 AM
Mar 2018

He told his supporters to vote for HRC and supported her in the general. It's his ardent fans who couldn't see that right now, we have a 2 party system. One of them is going to win. Do you want the person you agree with 80% of the time to win, or the person you agree with 0%?

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
10. We're on the same page. I battled against that mindset you speak of during the 2016 General Election
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 10:32 AM
Mar 2018

There are many here though who do blame Bernie. Thanks for your responses

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
28. That's a recurring theme of your messaging in this thread.
Tue Mar 13, 2018, 03:46 PM
Mar 2018

"But the bottom line is the American public is turning away from loyalty toward any one political party..."

That's a recurring theme of your messaging in this thread, yet what objective (that is, not influenced by personal feelings or personal interpretations, and based wholly on facts) evidence is there to support it?

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
29. Just found an OP I wrote last year where I had done some research on this
Tue Mar 13, 2018, 04:14 PM
Mar 2018

This is pulled from it:


Gallup has been ruing a poll for years that asks: “In politics, as of today, do you consider yourself a Republican, a Democrat or an independent? “ On March 17 2017 26% said Republican, 42% said Independent, and 30% said Democrat. Those figures bounce around a little, but since Gallup started running it in 2004 the relative order remains fairly constant. More almost always answer Independent than Democrat.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/15370/Party-Affiliation.aspx

A different Gallup study issued in 2014 had this finding:
“Young Americans in their 20s and 30s today share two important political characteristics -- they are the most likely of any age group to eschew identification with either party, and, among those who do have a political identity, they are the most likely, along with older baby boomers, to tilt toward the Democratic Party. “

Further on it goes on to explain the actual raw data – how young people literally self identify their political affiliations:

“These results highlight, again, the political detachment of the younger generation, with almost half of the very youngest initially identifying themselves as independents. The percentage of Americans who are independent drops at a remarkably steady rate across the entire age spectrum...

... Young Americans are more detached from the political system in general, but still tilt strongly toward the Democratic Party, particularly when those who initially identify as independents are asked to which party they lean.”
http://www.gallup.com/poll/172439/party-identification-varies-widely-across-age-spectrum.aspx

H2O Man

(73,528 posts)
11. Recommended.
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 10:40 AM
Mar 2018

Interesting, thoughtful OP. Thank you for it.

Locally, registered Democrats are fewer in number than republicans and independents. Yet, we've won numerous elections by running candidates that not only appeal to Democrats, but also to independents and some republicans.

When I've spoken recently to students (high school and college), most are very interested in elections, but not in either party. For example, in 2016, students were excited by Bernie in the primaries, but failed to show up in the general election. That same general dynamic will likely be in play in 2020. That is a potentially huge number of votes the Democratic Party can access in the next presidential election. More, with solid candidates, we can start appealing to a wider group of potential voters this year.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
12. Bernie did excite students
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 11:08 AM
Mar 2018

but, judging by the results of the primaries, he did not excite people of color, who make up a larger portion of Democratic voters than students.

Obama was able to excite students and people of color because he was an historic candidate. Obama was also a smart and charismatic speaker, like Bill Clinton who also initially excited students and minorities... remember, Bill Clinton was "America's First Black President" in the early 90s. People seem to forget that once we got Obama.

Nationally, however, there are more registered Democrats than there are Republicans. (31% of all registered voters versus 24% for Republicans) Republicans tend to turn out better for midterms, however, and there are a lot of roadblocks that keep students and minorities from easily voting.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
13. In many world democracies a leading politial party primarily sets the national agenda
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 11:08 AM
Mar 2018

despite only having a modest plurality of voters strongly professing loyalty toward it. It is reasonable for the Democratic Party to aspire to that status here. I think the days when the overwhelming majority of Americans identified as political partisans of a major party are well behind us and are unlikely to return, at least not in the foreseeable future. But, as they say, honey attracts more flies than vinegar. I see a frequent tendency here, and in other fine places where Democrats gather, to be disparaging to those who do not identify as loyal Republicans but refuse to always act as "loyal Democrats" either. Somehow I don't see this as a winning strategy for Democrats. If trend lines are indicative, clearly it isn't. We can still win the overwhelming majority of Independents in any given election with the right candidate and platform, especially if the Republican Party continues to veer towards racist crazy, but it is unlikely we can generate sustained enthusiasm for supporting Democratic if doing so is framed as an obligation not a choice. One of the truisms of political organizing is that you have to meet people where they live. Right now most people live outside of the Democratic tent. Being disrespectful of that fact is not a good place to begin.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
14. It would be interesting to compare those who are satisfied with the current system
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 11:15 AM
Mar 2018

with those who generally favor a middle of the road, moderate conservative approach that many Democratic candidates favor. Certainly it's correct that as long as we have a hard line- two party system we should support the moderate conservative Democratic candidate over the far right extremists that the Republicans tend to put up.

That said we can't can't be all that surprised when moderate conservative Democrats forward and support moderately conservative policies. And I can certainly understand why that might frustrate those who favor a liberal approach to solving America's problems.

Bryant

dalton99a

(81,443 posts)
15. Case in point - How the GOP controls Texas
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 11:18 AM
Mar 2018

i.e. how Kinky Friedman helped keep Rick Perry in office in 2006 and strengthen the GOP's stranglehold

The 2006 Texas gubernatorial election was held on November 7, 2006 to elect the Governor of Texas. The election was a rare four-way race, with incumbent Republican Governor Rick Perry running for re-election against Democrat Chris Bell and Independents Carole Keeton Strayhorn and Kinky Friedman. Perry was re-elected to a second full term in office, winning 39% of the vote to Bell's 30%, Strayhorn's 18% and Friedman's 12%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_gubernatorial_election,_2006

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
16. Yep. And the question remains...
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 11:29 AM
Mar 2018

Would Democrats (either here at DU or in Texas at the time) have welcomed it if Friedman say had run for the Democratic Party nomination instead, and agreed to abide by its results rather than run as an Independent in the general, if he didn't also pledge to remain a Democrat afterword? Or would he instead have come under continuing attack if he acted in any way less than positively toward any Texas Democrat subsequently? I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too in a situation like that. I think our overall interests would be better served by allowing a serious sincere Independent to seek the Democratic line through primaries if they pledge not to run against an eventual Democratic winner in the Fall if they themselves don't come out on top.

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,406 posts)
18. Wow
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 11:48 AM
Mar 2018

I had no idea that Perry was re-elected by such a small number (esp. for Texas). If even some of Strayhorn and/or Friedman's voters had gone for Bell, Perry could have lost.

ismnotwasm

(41,975 posts)
19. So.
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 12:06 PM
Mar 2018

You prefer British, Mexican, French, Canadian or Israeli politics to an American politics? That’s interesting. I fail to see the benefit as far as results. Then again, I have a horror of, say, Libertarians politics gaining traction. Parties evolve out of the nature of country, and I just don’t want to see a White Nationalist Party given a platform because enough people thinks it’s ok. Of course, I might jump right into The Feminist party, but I prefer to work with feminists within the Democratic Party.

Anyway.

We have a fairly powerful constitution with no history of monarchy. From what I have read, for now, we are stuck with a two party system, the question actually being, and probably more to your point, is which two parties. Third and other parties sway results. It’s a participatory process, where it fails is simply lack of participation, not Greens or “Independents”. They piss me off, yes. I’ll be pissed off for the rest of my life and I’m ok with it.

Trump, with his disregard for law, may change the presidency in unanticipated ways. As always, elections have consequences is the one take away from this clusterfuck we live in.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
20. My points were basic
Mon Mar 12, 2018, 12:27 PM
Mar 2018

Large populations of people do not fit neatly into two political bins, especially if those who own those bins don't make meaningful efforts to accommodate those who are not natural fits in them. Furthermore I was not focused on my own preferences, I included them because I though it less than transparent if I didn't. I focused instead on political trends in the larger American electorate while noting that they resonated with the apparent preferences of voters inside other major democracies. Arguments in favor of alignment with and loyalty to one of two major political parties in America are increasingly falling on deaf ears. Personally I am an elected Democratic Committee member. I have done extensive grunt work for years for the Democratic Party as an organization whether or not I happened to be particularly enthusiastic about the candidates we were running at the time. That is me, I happen to already be on board. We have no members of our local Democratic Party under 50 years of age however despite repeated attempts to recruit some.

I understand our Constitution and the system of politics that has sprung from it. All systems have pros and cons, but few can not be improved upon even if the underlying structure is almost impossible to fundamentally revise. Whether or not to embrace open primaries is one case in point. Our political system leaves it open to decide whether or not Independents are welcomed to vote in a State's major party primary, to mention one example. Like every thing else, there are arguments pro and con for either decision. But sometimes I think we Democrats behave like urban planners who know exactly where it is best for a stream to flow through our town because we can prove that on a map. Sometimes though it makes sense to begin to accommodate in reasonable ways where the water itself naturally wants to flow.

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
22. The system isn't strictly binary because of primaries.
Tue Mar 13, 2018, 10:00 AM
Mar 2018

I agree with a lot of what you say, but you overemphasize "binary" because you're looking only at the general election.

In some countries, such as Israel, the parliament is seated purely on a proportional basis. There are no geographic districts. The existence of more than two points of view is accommodated by the existence of multiple parties, which then, as you say, form coalitions after the general election.

Our system has multiple points of view before the primary is held. In 2015 there were 22 people seeking the major parties' nominations. The usual pattern is that the formation of coalitions occurs within each of the major parties. Each represents a coalition around an approximate area of ideology, which gets refined through its internal battles.

For example, Hillary Clinton had supported the TPP, but when Bernie Sanders and Martin O'Malley opposed it, and their opposition resonated with much of the Democratic Party, Clinton also came out against it. On the Republican side, some of the pro-business elements of their coalition were happy with comparatively loose immigration, seeing it as helping to provide cheap labor, but Trump won the nomination with a strong anti-immigration component to his campaign. Thus, the current shape of the generally pro-business GOP coalition is to roll back many government regulations but to tighten regulation of immigration. That's the kind of result that a multiparty democracy might achieve, in the course of cobbling together a grouping of parties that can attain a majority.

I completely agree with you that the hostility toward Bernie's run is totally misplaced. Years ago, he judged that, in a small state like Vermont, he could run outside the binary system and be successful. In 2015, he assessed the national scene and concluded that such a result could not be duplicated at that level. He expressly referenced Nader's experience in 2000 as having been a factor in Bush's election. Therefore, he made the right choice by seeking the Democratic nomination. If he had instead accepted the Green Party nomination, or run as an independent, then Trump would have won the popular vote in reality instead of just in his imagination, and would have flipped some of the states that actually went for Clinton.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
23. Primaries are becoming the only place where we can choose between candidates
Tue Mar 13, 2018, 10:09 AM
Mar 2018

who do not have wildly divergent political views. Outside of them, in order to repel today's version of no hold bars Republican extremism, one virtually has to vote for whoever the Democrats run. I know and accept the truth of that although it leaves a lot to be desired. In States where Independents can vote in Democratic primaries, a semblance of honest competition between people who actually can agree on most matters is somewhat preserved. But not all States allow that, and there are many partisans in both parties who even rankle at competitive primaries, preferring that voters instead rally behind a virtually designated nominee in waiting and/or the front runner, rather than fully airing areas of disagreement that do exist as part of a small "d" democratic process.

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
25. I don't see "closed" primaries as a big problem.
Tue Mar 13, 2018, 01:16 PM
Mar 2018

Outside the special case of New York, all you have to do is register with the party in whose primary you want to vote. You can change your registration up until 30 days before the primary, or, in some states, on primary day. Registering with a party doesn't obligate you to vote for all or even any of that party's nominees, and it doesn't mean that a portion of your tax dollars will be diverted to that party. It amounts to nothing more than eligibility to vote in a closed primary and to sign nominating petitions for party offices.

In the overall context of election problems (voter suppression, unverifiable machines, gerrymandering, etc.), the party registration requirement is a trifle.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
26. Well I do in fact live in NY, so that might color my views...
Tue Mar 13, 2018, 03:39 PM
Mar 2018

But when I think of how stupidly difficult it can be to get some people to follow through to change their registration to reflect a new address, for example, I wouldn't too underestimate the barrier that having to monitor which party if any you are registered with presents to people whose mind often simply isn't on participating in a primary until the day of that primary actually approaches. People find themselves thrown off voter rolls precisely because they have not reported a move and thereby don't get a key official notice. I do canvassing as a Democratic Committee member, this comes up not infrequently.

The relatively few distinctions that official party membership confers on to individuals outside of ability to participate in a primary is an argument for allowing Independents to vote in them. So many registered Democrats are literally Democrats in name only. Hence we have a case like the PA 18 where registered Democrats outnumber Republicans but Trump beat Clinton by 20 points there. Which is not to say that some of the other problems you mention aren't more serious.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
24. Party identification continues to fall.
Tue Mar 13, 2018, 10:28 AM
Mar 2018

And that is the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about. I worry that Trump is driving less horrible Republicans into the Democratic Party, making it more conservative, which I have no use for. I wrote last week that I believe in FDR's Second Bill of Rights and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as my philosophy and I will be not part of a political party that does not follow most of those.

I, weirdly, don't think people should have to shoe-horned into a political party. They should vote however they want to and I wouldn't shame them for it. It's their right, even if it is stupid and politically suicidal.

I also don't think Stein or Nader cost Democrats the election. in 2000, 300,000 Democrats voted for Bush in Florida. Nader got 95,000 altogether there and the margin ended up being some 500 votes. So blaming Nader is fucking bullshit in the first place. Blame Gore for being a shitty campaigner.

And it 2016, Wisconsin's voter ID laws disenfranchised some 200,000 people, so again, blaming third-parties is bullshit. In any case there are many reasons for Hillary's loss, including some fundamental strategic errors by that campaign and bad polling.

https://www.thenation.com/article/wisconsins-voter-id-law-suppressed-200000-votes-trump-won-by-23000/

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
27. And that is why I chose to write about it.
Tue Mar 13, 2018, 03:45 PM
Mar 2018

It is the elephant in the room around here. I do not encourage leaving the Democratic Party. I actually work to build it as a Democratic Committee member (and immediate past Chair). Still many voters choose to be Independents, growing numbers of them. Attacking them for that is not going to make them show more loyalty to Democrats in elections. I'm tired of people pretending that the elephant isn't there, or blaming voters for it.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
30. I think the sheer number of nonvoters is also important.
Wed Mar 14, 2018, 08:50 AM
Mar 2018

They may be more reachable than independents. We don't really know where they stand because they do not vote, or they sometimes vote and sometimes sit it out. I think making it easier for people to vote is step one. Automatic registration, scrapping the voter id laws, vote by mail and expanded early voting would help.

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