If you work for a large American corporation you've heard this story many times...

[milestogo]

5 Americans in IT positions at a company get laid off on a Friday afternoon. None have been at their jobs for less than 7 years and none have any work problems. The company must be cutting back for financial reasons.

The next week you hear that the company is looking for 5 H1-B Visa workers for IT positions at the same location. Its hard not to assume that these 5 workers will be replacing the American workers at a lower cost to the employer.

The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States.

How can companies assert that they cannot find qualified workers when it is so obvious that workers with those same skills were just let go?

The H1-B program is largely a scam which hurts American workers and it seems to be getting worse every year.

[Skittles]

1. and they have a very loose definition of the word "talent"

[fierywoman]

2. I'm sure SOME American in Miami would like seasonal work at Mar al Lago.

[many a good man]

3. Disagree

No, the usual pattern is to outsource first and have your shit canned citizen employees do KT (knowledge transfer) to the H1B workers taking their jobs if they want to collect their severance.

Actually, the preference is to offshore all the jobs where you can get three for the price of one. Contracts typically double the percentage of offshore workers year after year. The end result is a race to the bottom. The business then bypasses IT in favor of SaaS solutions that eventually leave them even more dissatisfied.

The offshore providers deliberately keep their employees narrow skilled and low cost to boost profits. Now Americans who have the skills and have risen through the ranks are stuck managing these contracts. i fear that in 10 years or so there will be no Americans to manage the providers so capitalism will outsource their IT support in toto to foreign companies. This is not only the for profit companies but government and everyone else. Does anyone else see this as a national security issue?

[milestogo]

4. Well, we don't really disagree.

The company in question is also offshoring jobs to 2 foreign countries. I haven't heard of them making workers train their own replacements, however.

I think they are trying to be subtle, but its not working. People are angry but if you vent your anger, you'll be next.

So not only are we being hacked by foreign countries; we are giving away jobs to foreigners.

[Perseus]

5. It is a scam because, and I have seen it first hand

That so called "Talent" that usually comes from India, do not have the experience or the knowledge to take on those jobs...Yes, they are smart and they learn to do their jobs eventually, but they are not, not even close, better than those who were let go.

It is just a scam, like the "non-paid Intern" scam.

[milestogo]

7. They also go to Indian technical colleges to recruit people

who have absolutely no work experience whatsoever and bring them to the US for these jobs. They do that rather than recruit at the technical colleges and universities in their own state.

Money is everything.

[MurrayDelph]

19. Back before it was my turn, almost eight years ago

when something would go wrong, the only thing the new-hires would do would be to send an email to one (or more) of the SysAdmins, to try to get them to do the new-hire's job by asking him/her to "Please do the needful."

I remember one time I spent several hours swapping emails with a programmer who purportedly now worked on the "Fred" application, on one of over a hundred computers in the data center (not counting the virtual machines and other locations worldwide).
When I said,I'd be glad to, what's it called, they replied that it's the one that starts "Fred."
I informed him there was no application with the word Fred in it's name, all I would get back is that it's the one that starts "Fred."
Eventually, someone not from India became available, provided the syntax to start the application, which I did.
After which, I created a batch file called "Start_Fred."

[milestogo]

23. That's rich.

"Please do the needful."

Reminds me of someone who kept saying that we needed to reboot the "donut" server in the middle of the night. Another person had to come on site to discover which server he was talking about.

[appalachiablue]

28. I know, that struck me too- 'Please do the needful.' WTH, Bizarro!

[BigmanPigman]

6. Many companies and employers do this.

They just call it something nice like "a golden handshake". Get higher wage workers ( those with seniority and experience) to leave and higher younger, cheaper labor. They do this in the teaching profession all the time. The district harasses you and makes you miserable, offers you a little nugget to retire early which you jump at then they hire newer, younger teachers to overwork and exploit.

[milestogo]

11. That is called age discrimination.

But at least the jobs are still going to Americans.

[X_Digger]

8. Having worked at Verizon during the H1B boom, I can abso-fucking-lutely endorse this.

The guys come over here and get paid shit, have to double or triple up in small apartments, and are terrified to take a day off or work less than 60 hours a week. (Even though they don't get paid hourly.)

Infosys & Tata can kiss my whole goddamned ass, one cheek each.

[politicaljunkie41910]

9. President Dotard is the biggest abuser of the H1-B Visa program. Maybe someone should have a talk

with him. His golf courses and hotels are full of them. He does it because once they come to the US under the H1-B Visa program they can only work for him, and they know it and he knows it. Thus he can pay them what he wants and subject them to any type of abuse he wants, under the threat that if they don't like it they can quit and return to their own country. No one spends the time and resources to come to America on a H-1B Visa only to turn around and return home shortly afterwards because they discovered their employer, the Great Cheeto is an asshole. They're stuck with him for the duration of their contract.

[democratisphere]

10. Corporations are chislers and lie as a normal course of business.

The corporate world is corrupt and plain rotten.

[Fla Dem]

12. Been happening for a long time. In the company I worked for 20 years ago.nt

[wroberts189]

16. +1 n/t

[George II]

13. I saw it even worse. I was involved in a layoff many years ago, there were 11 involved....

....and each of us was the OLDEST in our departments.

My job was "eliminated". I was 45 years old, and the day after I left I was immediately replaced with a woman about 10 years younger than me returning from maternity leave. It turns out her job was eliminated and she was put in my position with the SAME job title and job description (this isn't a slam against her, but HR who did these manipulations)

After a year and a half of state proceedings (EEOC and CHRO) and a lawsuit, I was reinstated the last day of the published "recall" policy. Had they waited one more day they would have been liable for much higher damages if I won my lawsuit.

We ultimately settled for what turned out to be back pay and benefits.

By the way, two years later I was again laid off, and won a "retaliation" suit.

[HipChick]

14. A lot of the Indian companies have opened US offices now...

Still goes on, and big $$$

[BSdetect]

15. These imports are not always as talented as employers assume. Fact.

[IronLionZion]

17. Are they employees or contractors?

Because a lot of companies will get rid of employees and outsource IT to contractors which are temporary and can be removed without notice. Americans are more than welcome to work in contracting, they just don't want to. I'm American and hate it.

It's very stressful to fired without notice and stop receiving a paycheck and lose health insurance because a project is over. And have to do this every few months. People wonder how I have time to post on DU during the day.

I would say contracting is what hurts American workers, because it keeps us from having stable income or working in the same city for more than a few months. Work visas are very closely connected to temporary jobs and relocating to different cities every few months, not stable long-term employment.

Also how do you know if a specific IT worker is on a visa and not a US citizen? As an American who is constantly told that I'm stealing jobs and Trump will deport me somewhere, I'd like us all to move away from race-based assumptions of citizenship.

[milestogo]

20. I hear you.

I've done a lot of contract work and its a financial nightmare to be unemployed so frequently.

The people who lost their jobs were employees. The H1Bs will be contractors, I believe.

I have found that managers talk pretty freely about what somebody's status is, and so do the H1B workers. Its not fair to blame the individuals - everyone is seeking a better situation. It just seems bizarre that corporations expect some kind of loyalty from their workers when they have no loyalty to give.

[LittleGirl]

22. My huband and I

are living that nightmare right now. Contract position even with the company that hired him 9 yrs ago but with an end date for employment. How is that possible!?
Because it's legal.

[dlk]

18. One Reason Why IT at Major Corps. is So Messed Up

[LittleGirl]

21. I quit more than 11 yrs ago

and this was going on at my company. I was an IT administrator that had worked my way up to that position. They started doing some in house programming and needed BASIS programmers. Next thing I see, 4 new guys all from India and they had to be trained, they had to be a part of team meetings and could barely speak English. They had to repeat their words many times for management to understand what they were saying because of their thick accent. (I grew up with immigrant grand parents with thick Italian accents so I'm not criticizing their accents). The problem was that there were local BASIS programmers that could have filled the positions but the Corporation decided to bring in H1-B visa holders. They got paid shit wages, they worked long grueling hours, they had no family in the states and if their wives joined them, the wife was not allowed to work. Those women were trapped at home, literally, usually with children to care for and get schooled, as well. They had healthcare coverage and that's about it. They barely made enough to live on and a couple of the single guys went back to India to get married and were gone for a month. Somehow, the Corporation allowed that but regular employees couldn't take a month off, ever. no way. The H1-B were treated like slaves and I hated that the company I worked for treated humans that way. I left and never followed that crew that showed up one day many moons ago, but I'll never forget them. I hope they are doing well because about 3-4 yrs after I left, they shut that site down and the 500 souls that were there were either transferred or riffed. That employer is an international corporation still in business today. They do it because it's sometimes cost effective and the tax laws allow them to write off expenses like that also because it's legal.

[lunatica]

24. If they had a union it would have demanded formal corroboration

For the first action to prove the reason for the firing. And then the union would have formally demanded, in court, if necessary, that they give the original workers their jobs back. And the union would have won because they’re responsible for most of the labor laws to protect workers.

I belonged to the Teamsters and I’ve seen them do this.

[Nay]

32. Unfortunately for them, lots of IT workers considered themselves to be sorta libertarian --

and sorta irreplaceable -- for many years during the growth of the computer revolution. They didn't believe in unions, thinking that their skills would always be so rare and valuable that they could always remain employed and that they would never need the help of anything as socialist as a union. They always thought they'd be on top.

Workers of any kind need to learn, over and over, that employers are always looking for ways to get rid of them. Period.

[PatrickforO]

25. The H1B program is abused. We did a study in my state of

skilled workers coming over on H1B visas. We found the IT people were making a wage between the 25th and 50th percentile.

A couple other significant things:
- The most common IT occupation to be brought over on an H1B visa is computer system analyst.
- According to ONET Online, the typical entry level education for a systems analyst is a bachelor's degree.
- In 2016, an in-depth analysis of IPEDS training outcomes showed that while there were 869 openings for systems analysts, there were only 55 persons who graduated with a bachelor's degree in systems analysis or other closely related training program.

In the case of my own state then, I'd say we'd be better served working with postsecondary educators to increase business-relevant graduation outcomes in this occupation before we cap the number of H1B visas.

That said, the problematic issue in any regional economy with H1B visa people is remittance. 'Remittance' means the money they send home to their families in their country of origin. This averages 10% of the gross income.

Here's how it looks on the ground:
- The average wage in my state for this occupation is $94,536 per year.
- If we have 100 Americans performing this occupation, then they are earning an aggregate of $9.453 million annually, and this money goes out into the community as demand for goods and services as well as contributing to the tax base.
- If we have the same 100 jobs filled by H1B people who are earning $79,934 for the same job, and remitting 10% of their gross. This means that these 100 workers are only contributing ($79,934 X .9) X 100 = $7.194 million.

So, the opportunity cost to the regional economy of companies hiring 100 computer systems analysts on H1B visas paying between the 25th and 50th percentile versus 100 Americans at the average wage is that there is $2.259 million LESS money in the economy. WE can also read this as $2.259 million LESS demand for goods and services.

Thus, while hiring people on H1B visas might help big publicly held corporations (examples from my state: IBM, URS) hold down labor costs, which is good for their shareholder earnings, it is BAD for the regional economy in which the people are working.

This is why Bernie was right - postsecondary education at state colleges is an investment that benefits everyone in the community through higher wages, which equal more demand for goods and services, and more money into the tax base, which pays for stuff people need, like good roads, clean water, police, firefighting, K-12 (and postsecondary state, if we adopt Bernie's platform), and so on.

Education is a good community investment, and we are better off growing our own than bringing workers in from other countries with H1B visas. That said, in the example above, the companies were justified - this is a critical occupation for which the state's training pipeline output (number of graduates) is INADEQUATE to meet demand.

That is how it works, and that is why we need to elect politicians who have a couple of brain cells to rub together, some common sense and are not moronic ideologues. Sometimes, we can get to the bottom of something and design really intelligent policy just by ASKING THE RIGHT QUESTIONS.

[mr_lebowski]

29. Great Post!!!

[Hoyt]

26. I refuse to even let the IT people where I work touch the stuff I use. Id welcome

some real expertise, whether it’s foreign or otherwise.

I don’t doubt this happens, but MOST companies nowadays know they aren’t going to save any money firing COMPETENT IT people. Now replacing incompetent IT, is a different matter.

[Volaris]

27. 'Qualified' in this case means 'cheaper'.

You're right it's a scam.

[Xolodno]

30. Lot of IT related posts...trust me, it ain't just there....

I've seen a lot of people shafted over the years, could probably write a book on it. So, I'll just mention my experiences.

1. Working in pricing/product, to meet deadlines I would start at 5 am and not finish until 11 pm on a Friday...saving grace, I was working from home. But still wouldn't be done, so, Saturday, after a good nights rest started up again...emailed my manager...and he would respond. Did this for a few years, every review he said, "again I put you as a four" rating was 1 to 5, one means your gone in 90 days and 5 is up there with unicorns, but a four comes with a nice raise and bonus. And sure enough those higher than him forced him to push me back to a 3. Never complained since I didn't play the politics game, I knew the price.

Until one director decided he was going to force me to do so. Was up for promotion several times...and passed over. One pricing/product manager that left even told the Director, he needed to move me up as I could do better than he did. Long story short, he didn't and hired somebody that was way sub-par and went on leave within the first year. And while this person was on leave, in addition to doing my regular duties, I had to assume hers as well. Oh and while doing this, I standardized our training program and pricing change practices...a month before we got hit by the auditing team...of which they commended for having a good process in place.

And, I got passed over again. Started job hunting...

2. Then out of nowhere, I got asked to come up to Distribution/Marketing Analysis with a promotion. Apparently someone there noticed. I was thrilled...for awhile. Then I realized the politics was even worse there. But I pushed through, one thing I noticed, in my years, if you don't play the game, but do your job and do it well, they won't advance you much, but they won't dare demean you, as they do rely on everything you do. Well, long story short, first year was just a 3, expected, still was learning the ropes. Second year, yeap, was told I was rated a 4 again...and was pushed back to 3.

Third year, my research/work got some serious notice....even a call from the CEO, of a multi-billion dollar company. Other managers/directors have even told me I changed the direction of the company. My work is now the first thing on the companies long term strategy. It take precedence on all the slides. It was the only project I worked on the whole year as it had tentacles into everything...but it was a huge f'n project...and didn't get much support from other groups. Earned praise from the field up to senior management. And while this was happening, back filling for someone who left the company and a person who left for pregnancy leave roughly the same time.

I got rated a "2".

Granted, the company "changed" its view on 2's as being as a person who met expectations. But you still suffered the financial consequences as being sub-par, that is 1.5% raise and loss of 50% of your eligible bonus. But I sure was hell not a "2".

And you don't have to be a genius to figure out why. One of the "favorites" announced she was taking over my project since it was going to be included in one of their initiatives. Well, my manager and I fought against this and won...even though my manger thinks its...and I quote "bullshit" (if its not his idea, it doesn't feed his ego), he wasn't going to relinquish the glory. And despite working intensely with other groups on forecasting, bonus determination, etc. I always sensed a resentment. Even another Director said he thought...despite the analytics I provided...thought it wasn't important. Yet when it comes to geo-intelligence, he is the first one always asking to "borrow me". Plus, after being there for 18+ years, they probably thought, "he'll just take it on the chin". Well, I sure as hell haven't taken it on the chin, I've been hiding my emotions and seething every day I come in...but I take solace on the day I quit.

So what exactly happened? Apparently the higher ups stated our division doesn't have enough "2's"...despite the official HR mumbo jumbo about no "specified distribution". So it was forced to take a certain number at each salary grade...and in my case, they decided it was going to be on the number of projects completed...yeah, everyone else did more "projects"...but they weren't much work. But the others are under the political "umbrella". Hell, my manager...probably sensing something is wrong, is throwing a lot of projects at me this year so they can't use that excuse, but they are boring regurgitating scorecards on reports we already publish. In other words, its boring me and certainly doesn't help the company.

And to drop the other shoe, should layoffs happen, though unlikely, because I got that "2", a rating I have NEVER received before, I'm on the firing line.

3. Updated my Resume and started applying to a few things that interest me. Not in too much of a hurry just yet. The company freezes the pension at the end of the year. However, the closer we get to that date, the more aggressive my job hunting will become. Funny thing is, I was already thinking about moving somewhere else in the company as I felt I could leverage what I learned to help somewhere else...but after getting that "2"...just going to take a number 2 on the company and move on.

[milestogo]

31. I have no idea what your post has to do with the H1B visa issue that is being discussed.