Gal Gadot's remarks on Stephen Hawking

[cyclonefence]

I would gently remind those of you who are sneering at the idea of "ableism" that what you are saying sounds a lot like RW talking points when discussing better-known shades of discrimination. Several years ago, few people talked about "agism," and I can't remember ever hearing so much talk of misogyny as I have in just the past fives years. I guess because so many magnitudes fewer people are affected by ablism, and because so many of those are not able to make their voices heard, it's easy to be unaware of words and attitudes that hurt, just as it's taken way too long for men to realize that women do not appreciate a pat on the butt, no matter how well-intentioned.

If you are unsure what "ableism" means:

Ableism refers to "discrimination in favor of able-bodied people," according to the Oxford English Dictionary. But the reality of ableism extends beyond literal discriminatory acts (intentional or not) to the way our culture views disabled people as a concept. Ableism is also the belief that people with disabilities "need to be fixed or cannot function as full members of society" and that having a disability is "a defect rather than a dimension of difference," according to the authors of one 2008 Journal of Counseling & Development article on the topic, as reported by Feminists with Disabilities. https://mic.com/articles/121653/6-forms-of-ableism-we-need-to-retire-immediately#.EKscbcl0N

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. yeah, "ableism" is definitely a Thing.

People don't care unless it's their ox getting gored, though. Most of the complaints about "ageism" are coming from Boomers who are shocked and offended by the suggestion that maybe we should be looking for candidates outside their age cohort.

[Mosby]

2. if they are not disabilities then why call them that?

I get the idea of having a positive attitude about a disability, but it's still a disability.

[X_Digger]

8. Yeah, I don't get that either. Lacking sight is a defect of one's vision.

It's not a lifestyle choice.

[LuvLoogie]

3. Gal Gadot's sentiments were not ableist, though.

[obamanut2012]

6. Agreed

[Girard442]

4. Not a coincidence that the Trumpies went after the ADA

Nazis are the most ableist there are.

[BannonsLiver]

5. There was nothing wrong with what she said.

[Tipperary]

7. No, there was not.

[cyclonefence]

10. According to a whole lot of people with disabilities,

yes there was. No matter how well-intended her words were. Many in the community saw her words as expressing pity, the last thing in the world people with disabilities want.

[Blue_Adept]

12. A lot of people misinterpret things easily as well

[cyclonefence]

15. That's true

but I'm not sure what you're referring to. I think Gal Gadot's remarks were plain enough. I think the response from disability activists was clear. I think the responses here were certainly clear.

No one questions that Gadot's remarks were meant to be kind and loving.

[Blue_Adept]

16. I fully believe that the statement she made has been misinterpreted

But whatever. I said pretty much the same exact thing about the mortal coil when my perfectly healthy father passed away. He was free of mortal constraints/physical constraints.

The offended are more than welcome to be offended.

[cyclonefence]

19. I think the offended interpreted her statement just fine--excerpts below

I want to be very clear that my initial response to @GalGadot was not about “slamming” her. It was a constructive attempt to educate about harmful language. I’m sure she didn’t intend to be hurtful.

One would never say someone is freed by death from being a certain race, or gender or religion so why is it acceptable to imply death frees someone who achieved greatness while happening to have a disability?

I think you’re fantastic Gal but this tweet is very ableist. His physical constraints didn’t stop him from changing the world. People with disabilities don’t wish for death to be free of their challenges. We wish to be valued for what we CAN do, not pitied for we can’t.

She may have had the best intentions and didn’t say anything conventionally rude, but her language was ableist. And — what’s worse — she didn’t even realize it.

[Blue_Adept]

20. Sure, whatever

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life. (3.1.56-69)

All this does is largely turn a lot of people away from things, including helping and trying to connect with others, because of how it's presented. When people offer to help but get people snapping back, whether it's talk of being ableist or "I can do it myself!" it isn't productive in the slightest. At best it might be a wash.

I find the whole discussion amusing in the end because a handful of tweets apparently represent an entire community. If they're like any other community, it's like herding cats and there is no actual consensus. Just some people offended, a lot not caring at all, and plenty not even aware of what's going on.

[LanternWaste]

27. Why limit your exposure only to the disabled activists speaking out against the statement

Why limit your exposure only to the disabled activists speaking out against the statement rather than allowing for the positive exposure by other disabled activists-- which are also "certainly clear"?

You are aware no activist community speaks with one and only voice, has one and only one message, possesses one and only one agenda, yes? 'cause it seems like you don't.

[Drahthaardogs]

28. I think it's making a mountain out of a molehill

And pretty stupid at that.

She did nothing wrong. People are always looking for something to snipe at or about.

I get offended hearing a grown ass man use the word "yummy" as I find cutesy words stupid and infantile.

It does not make me right.

[BannonsLiver]

17. Nah its an example of people working hard to be offended

There’s a difference between patronizing and what she and others said after his death. Seems like there are a lot of people incapable or unwilling to understand that.

[cyclonefence]

18. Well, if you know that what you've said is offensive to someone

you have to own it. People cannot excuse their cruelty and insensitivity by pleading ignorance. Yes, I know what I said was hurtful, and I not only don't care, I question your right to decide what offends you.

[mythology]

21. That doesn't necessarily apply if you don't believe the offense is legitimate

Just because somebody is offended doesn't mean everybody else has to agree. Some people were offended by Michelle Obama wearing a sleeveless dress for example.

[BannonsLiver]

23. Trouble is, nothing she said was intentionally hurtful

The case that it was is pretty ludicrous tbh. We'll agree to disagree. I happen to think Hawking had a great life either way, though I have my doubts he would have chosen to have a debilitating disease as some have suggested in other threads.

[nini]

9. I didn't see one person on the board say the things you imply they did

As for my own comments in that other thread. I am an equal opportunity judge of jerks. If you're disabled, gay, black, white, straight, atheist, Catholic, jew - whatever - if you're a jerk - you're a jerk. Your classification does not give you a free pass.

Gadot's remarks were intended to be kind and should be taken as such.

[cyclonefence]

11. "Why honey that sweater makes your breasts look so big"

Well-intended? "I was just complimenting her." Gadot's words were well-meant but full of condescension and pity, thus offensive. Plus, how come you get to decide that the people who were offended were wrong, that they weren't--or shouldn't have been--offended at all?

Most of us personally have no reason to take offense at team names like Redskins but we are compassionate enough to understand and accept that they are offensive to others, and we defend their right to be offended? Just because something doesn't offend you doesn't mean it doesn't offend the people it refers to.

Not only do people with disabilities have to hear such insulting words, however well-meant--but they are not even allowed to speak up to explain why the words are hurtful and help to keep them out of the mainstream, without being told, essentially, that they are being politically correct. Oh, and they should understand that the words were kind, and they should be grateful for them. Talk about a double bind.

Why is it so hard for so many people here to try to understand--do a google search on disability rights, for instance--and maybe learn something? I guess it's too easy to whine about how they aren't allowed to say *anything* any more (stamping their little feet).

I do not mean that this is your attitude, but jebus take a look at some of the responses. I feel like I'm at a CPAC meeting.

[FSogol]

14. "I feel like I'm at a CPAC meeting."

[nini]

25. I'll go back and look since I haven't been back to it for a while.

and yes.. if anyone dismisses a disabled person for any reason..to hell with them.

BUT regarding Gadot's comments should be an opportunity to educate - not humiliate someone who honestly meant no harm too. I saw outrage before discussion as to why some may have perceived things that way.

[cyclonefence]

13. If you missed the remarks I referred to

go back and read the threads again.

A cursory search reveals these few you apparently missed:

I'm not going to spend what's left of my life taking offense at everything I can.
If anyone finds that insulting, fuck them. I'm tired of the perpetually outraged.
Ableist? Wtf....
If it offends you that I very much care about intentions, that's not my problem. We're done here.
Some people look for ways to be offended.

[lagomorph777]

22. I don't think "many magnitudes fewer people are affected by ablism" is true at all.

It's more accurate to refer to the lucky among us as "temporarily abled." We will (nearly all of us) face increasing disabilities as we age, and be forced to adapt, and to get along in a world that makes a lot of assumptions.

[cyclonefence]

24. I take your point

and the goodwill with which you obviously express it, but you are aware, I hope, that "the lucky among us" who are temporarily abled is a put-down all on its own? I say this to you with goodwill, not to insult you but to help spread the word.

One of my best friends is an MD with a measured IQ of 40, due to his CP. When we go out to dinner, about nine times out of ten I will be asked "what would he like to eat?" So this is a tender spot for me, and I apologize for my grimness in support of disability rights.

[Loki Liesmith]

26. The criticism of her tweet was moronic