Why is it so difficult for people to believe that a mass murderer is out of his mind?

[originalpckelly]

Might make you think twice before seeking vengeance?
"He was seeing a shrink, just so he could set up a defense for shooting a bunch of people!"

Why would someone normal want to shoot a bunch of people? Hint: That's not a normal thought.
The only time normal people do that is in a war, and chances are they're following orders from crazy people.

[LisaL]

1. Why are pepole so eager to claim that he is?

[originalpckelly]

3. Because it seems to make sense...

after all most mentally healthy people do not need to see a psychiatrist that specializes in treating people with schizophrenia.

[LisaL]

4. Does she only treat people with schizophrenia?

No.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Will you at least accept he was seeing a psychiatrist

And that we need a competency hearing, or is that still a bridge too far?

[rug]

27. Do you have a sane motive for this?

[FrodosPet]

113. Did he understand that his actions were wrong?

Did he have the intellectual capacity to understand that what he was doing was harmful to others, and as such was incorrect behavior?

If the answer is yes, I don't think an insanity verdict would be in order.

Mental Illness =/= Insanity

[rug]

114. Wrong question.

Colorado uses a modified M'Naghten Rule.

http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/olls/sl1995/sl_26.htm

Under (b), it is highly unlikely he had the requisite mens rea, which is an entirely different standard.

[pnwmom]

87. Because his behavior would fit with a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia,

and so would his age, and so would the fact that he has no criminal history (which would be extremely unusual for most murderers -- but not for a paranoid schizophrenic murderer).

It was no big surprise to people familiar with paranoid schizophrenia to find out that he had been under the care of a psychiatrist who has specialized in the disorder.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/paranoid-schizophrenia/DS00862/DSECTION=symptoms

With paranoid schizophrenia, you're less likely to be affected by mood problems or problems with thinking, concentration and attention.

Key symptoms
Delusions and hallucinations are the symptoms that make paranoid schizophrenia most distinct from other types of schizophrenia.

Delusions. In paranoid schizophrenia, a common delusion is that you're being singled out for harm. For instance, you may believe that the government is monitoring every move you make or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch. You may also have delusions of grandeur — the belief that you can fly, that you're famous or that you have a relationship with a famous person, for example. You hold on to these false beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. Delusions can result in aggression or violence if you believe you must act in self-defense against those who want to harm you.

SNIP

[sibelian]

2. It's easier to be angry with evil than frightened of madness.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Ding, ding, ding

We got a winah!

[HiPointDem]

62. hardly. it's much easier to say "oh, he was just crazy" than look for other possibilities. all the

other possibilities are lots scarier.

[pnwmom]

88. He has no criminal history, unlike the vast majority of murderers,

but in keeping with the diagnosis of a murderer with paranoid schizophrenia. He is the right age for that disease to develop, and he's evidencing behavior that would fit with the diagnosis.

It's more logical to say he had paranoid schizophrenia than some of the other possibilities. There's nothing non-scary about that illness to those who suffer from it, and to their families.

[Lex]

81. You hit the nail on the head.

Yep.

[1monster]

5. Because when something bad happens, someone has to pay for it, Goddammit!

And it doesn't matter if the someone who has to pay for it is able to understand or not. And it doesn't matter if that someone tried to get help or not.

And I'm not being sarcastic. That's the way it is in this country any more. It doesn't matter if a person is bat shit crazy and babbling gibberish. If s/he breaks a law in that state, s/he's going to pay big time for it. And the only help s/he will get is the help that will keep them quiet during their trial and prison stay.

edit: grammar

[Laurian]

7. I agree. I think he is incompetent/mentally ill.

That's why I reserve my anger and hatred for the NRA and all the gun nuts who have swamped our land with all types of guns and ammo. We will never get that cat back in the bag.

[originalpckelly]

10. I think we need to melt the guns down...

to make a tribute to these people and others who've died because of these weapons. At least melt down the damn semi-automatic ones.

[AntiFascist]

9. The level of black and white thinking on DU can be dumbfounding...

there's no reason he can't be crazy AND a psychopath at the same time. If he doesn't get the death penalty then he'll probably be locked up in a facility for the criminally insane for the rest of his life.

[originalpckelly]

11. Actually, a psychopath is a crazy person too.

Crazy on two accounts, then.

[AntiFascist]

12. I guess I'm thinking more about the legal definition or finding...

there's also anti-social personality disorder which is defined as being different yet.

[Live and Learn]

61. Actually, they are finding that these "personality disorders"

are due to brain anomalies. and are therefore physical illnesses.

Psychopaths' brains show differences in structure and functionNovember 22, 2011 in Neuroscience
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-11-psychopaths-brains-differences-function.html

The results could help explain the callous and impulsive anti-social behavior exhibited by some psychopaths.

The study showed that psychopaths have reduced connections between the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (vmPFC), the part of the brain responsible for sentiments such as empathy and guilt, and the amygdala, which mediates fear and anxiety. Two types of brain images were collected. Diffusion tensor images (DTI) showed reduced structural integrity in the white matter fibers connecting the two areas, while a second type of image that maps brain activity, a functional magnetic resonance image (fMRI), showed less coordinated activity between the vmPFC and the amygdala.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I think it is our culture as well at play here

I will make several points, have been reading the History of Madness by Foucault, highly recommendable, if a little dense...

1.- Culturally we are a by your bootstraps, yes even progressives, it is part of the mass psychosis, ergo a person who does this must be conscious and alert and aware... if this person turns out to be crazy, then we must admit that something is wrong with us as a society for not detecting this.

2.- Madness, as Foucault makes very clear, is a medical construct these days... if this is a medical construct, then we failed to provide for a medical remedy. IT would be a we, that do that.

3.- It is easier to hate somebody who was aware of what they were doing, than somebody who was crazy.

4.- A lot of folks do not get this... he can be loon as can be, but as long as aware enough and can assist in defense, can still stand trial... if he is found to be able to stand trial, this insanity will have to play a role in the sentencing phase and that really makes us, as a society, have the ickies.

5.- We are pretty much a very much black and white society, and there can be no grays, why this gives a lot of people the jivie hivies.

And lastly...

6.- Even if he is able to stand trial, he is the second person with a mental issue to get paws on mass arsenal and use it... what do these two individuals have in common? They live in states with very weak gun laws... that gives the other side even more, SEE...

It is a combo of all the above.

[AntiFascist]

22. Yes, #6 in particular is interesting...

one of his friends, I believe, came forward with the fact that he was deeply into playing video games, even the violent ones, but there was no mention of it in the media since. The initial report was that he was only into sports video games, but then I think one of his acquantances came forward and disagreed with this report.

If someone begins to blur the lines of reality and fantasy, and they are deeply into such games, and they have ready access to assault weapons....

I don't mean to blame RPG game designers, but I'd like to know your opinion on this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. It's like comics in the 1950s, who were even under the Senate thumb

where the Comic Code came from

Hard Metal Music

RPGs, paper and pencil...

And now RPGs computer ones. We like to blame a SINGLE thing for driving our youth to no good...

If computer games had ANY role in this, it was in combination of a lot of things, and not easy to blame just one thing.

[Confusious]

51. Well if it's true

I would get thee to a bunker!, because 150 million playstation 2s were sold, which means *at least* 150 million people with guns shooting the country up.

It's the end of the world as we know it!

[AntiFascist]

100. Again, this is the result of black and white thinking...

most people playing such games won't become violent. I wouldn't blame the games to begin with, as Nadin pointed out, it's more about a sick society that has the need to fantasize about violence.

[Confusious]

101. I don't have a problem with the fantasizing

We all do that, to some degree or another. I've had some bad bosses and I would have liked to have kicked their teeth in.

It's the carrying out that is the problem. It just doesn't only happen in the United States, it happens all over the world.

Surprisingly, of the top 50 school massacres, the entire bottom half is in China.

Some of these people seem to have poor impulse control, others narcissism. Both would be seen if we had some sort of national health care system.

Here's the list if you want to check it out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

[AntiFascist]

103. Interesting how many committed suicide in that list...

that's why I don't think the death penalty works so well as a deterrent in these cases. Keeping them alive may be more of a punishment.

[Confusious]

104. yea, I think

a lot of them are more afraid of living then dying.

[pnwmom]

89. There's a great difference between a paranoid schizophrenic driven by

his delusions and a psychopath who cold-bloodedly, with keen awareness, plots a mass murder.

[AntiFascist]

99. Cognitive impairment is more often than not associated with schizophrenia...

http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/6/3/161.full

even in young adults.

Also, not all schizophrenics turn to violence and there's nothing about the disease that dictates that simply having symptoms will lead one to violence.

Acquiring weapons and shooting people may not require incredible intelligence, but he also rigged a sophisticated network of IEDs in his apartment that kept police busy for days.

[pnwmom]

105. Cognitive impairment is less often a problem with paranoid schizophrenia

than with other types.

The vast majority of schizophrenics don't turn to violence (except against themselves). But in individual cases the delusions ARE the cause of the violence.

There are very intelligent schizophrenics with the capability to rig Holmes's apartment and more. John Nash, a grad student at Princeton, was in the early years of his schizophrenia (experiencing both auditory and visual hallucinations) when he produced the mathematical work that ended up earning him a Nobel Prize in economics.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/paranoid-schizophrenia/DS00862/DSECTION=symptoms

With paranoid schizophrenia, you're less likely to be affected by mood problems or problems with thinking, concentration and attention.

Key symptoms
Delusions and hallucinations are the symptoms that make paranoid schizophrenia most distinct from other types of schizophrenia.

Delusions. In paranoid schizophrenia, a common delusion is that you're being singled out for harm. For instance, you may believe that the government is monitoring every move you make or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch. You may also have delusions of grandeur — the belief that you can fly, that you're famous or that you have a relationship with a famous person, for example. You hold on to these false beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. Delusions can result in aggression or violence if you believe you must act in self-defense against those who want to harm you.

Auditory hallucinations. An auditory hallucination is the perception of sound — usually voices — that no one else hears. The sounds may be a single voice or many voices. These voices may talk either to you or to each other. The voices are usually unpleasant. They may make ongoing criticisms of what you're thinking or doing, or make cruel comments about your real or imagined faults. Voices may also command you to do things that can be harmful to yourself or to others. When you have paranoid schizophrenia, these voices seem real. You may talk to or shout at the voices.

[AntiFascist]

106. There are always exceptions to the norm, and Holmes may very well be one of these...

but I don't think any legal argument could be made very easily that he was acting out of self-defense, no matter how delusional or insane he was.

[pnwmom]

108. I think the argument for self defense will depend on whether he is ill, whether he has delusions,

and what they are. But being out of touch with reality is also a legal defense.

As for his ability to carry out his plan, that wouldn't make him an exception to the rule. The fact that he could do so would be in keeping with his already high intelligence. And, as the Mayo Clinic article says, people with paranoid schizophrenia are less likely to be cognitively impaired than people with other types.

[AntiFascist]

109. There's also evidence that he WAS cognitively impaired...

since he failed an oral exam the led to him being dismissed from his program. I don't think he can be easily pigeon-holed to a specific disorder, even after knowing all available details.

[pnwmom]

110. Lots of people fail their orals. But I agree that it may not be easy

to diagnose him. I hope he has a thorough exam by experts.

[digonswine]

13. I would think-

that his actions have already determined that his mental health was not so good.
His being able to plan this and arm himself has nothing to to do with anything.
If he was seeing a shrink to muddy the mental waters, he is still fucked up.
I get what you are saying--THIS GUY IS FUCKED UP!
I agree. I saw pictures of him in the paper of his hearing- he looked pathetic. I am a softy-I feel bad for him AND the victims.
I see shit like this am very thankful to random happenstance that I am at least half-way OK and not like that.

[tawadi]

14. Always been my argument against the insanity "defense"

Does a sane person do this sort of crime. Really? So isn't anyone who commits this sort of crime insane?

[pnwmom]

90. Not everyone who commits mass murder is a paranoid schizophrenic.

Timothy McVeigh wasn't a paranoid schizophrenic; he was a terrorist with political goals.

[tawadi]

93. There are other definitions of insanity

One could argue that a sane person would not kill 168 innocent people - 19 of them children.

[pnwmom]

95. One could. And each case is different. However,

some murderers have more control over their actions than others. Someone who is the subject of visual and auditory hallucinations, for example, is less responsible for his own actions than someone who isn't.

[tawadi]

107. I can see your viewpoint

It's disturbing however to think a sane individual could commit mass murder.

[Cerridwen]

15. Because "men" are "reasonable" and only

"women" are hysterical.

Funny how that whole "women are crazy/hysterical/histrionic" theme kicks in, isn't it?

Can we start to ask why violent response to perceived sleight is some how not...mentally deficient? Can we?

Why is a violent response as a form of conflict resolution not deemed, mentally unsound? Why do we give violence a pass?

[johnnie]

16. Not everyone thinks that way

But here on DU you have a bunch of brilliant minds that love to hate people before thinking. I used to think that liberals were compassionate and understanding of others, but a few days on here will cure you of those thoughts.

I don't sympathize with mass murderers or even a person like Zimmerman, but I like to wait for the facts. Contrary to popular opinion, liberals can be just as vindictive as anyone.

[HangOnKids]

75. brilliant minds that love to hate people before thinking

Really? That is what DU is? But you stay? That is curious indeed.

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. Vindictiveness Addiction: Somebody Must PAY!

Not that complicated. Some people make meaning by finding others to burn alive.

[LisaL]

19. So no one should pay for killing 12 people?

O'key.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. IF he is deemed capable of standing trial yes

if he is deemed too crazy... he will spend the rest of his days in a hospital for the criminally insane... that is how it works.

You of course know Loughner has yet to see MORE than a competency hearing, RIGHT?

[LisaL]

21. Insanity is an affirmative defense.

Meaning his defense will have to prove that he is insane. WTF do some people around here expect everybody to just accept it without any evidence presented?

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. What part of competency hearing are you still missing?

That will establish if he can even stand trial.

[LisaL]

25. What part of demanding that we have to believe right now that he is insane are you missing?

That's what it sounds like to me when posters start asking why some people refuse to believe he is out of his mind.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. You are having an issue with HOW the system works

in your mind he is guilty... in my mind I will wait for the PROCESS to play out... as it has with Loughner.

You may want to believe that he was a rational actor, and that he is just play acting right now.

The evidence emerging so far, points to the NEED for that hearing. I want to know if he is capable of standing trial... he might be crazy as a loon, and STILL MEET THE LEGAL REQUIREMENTS to stand trial. For that we need PROFESSIONALS to analyze him and yes, that crazy notebook, to establish if he has any understanding of what happened.

The US is not as civilized as it pretends to be, but actually having to prove somebody can stand trial is the civilized thing to do...

[LisaL]

32. I am having in issue with being belittled for not believing something I am apparently supposed

to believe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Alas I am not belittling you

I am willing to wait for the process to play out.

Once again, under US Law it is simple, he might be loon as a toon... it is possible. As long as it is clearly established that he knows what happened and can assist in his defense, guess what? He will face a trial. If he cannot... well then, will be referred to a hospital where he will be medicated, and every so often will go before a judge to see if he can stand trial.

By the way, after a few of those, if he still cannot, well then the court has leeway to lock them permanently. If you have ever been to a psych ward, you would quickly realize it IS a form of punishment actually.

Regardless, the individual is removed from society, which is YOUR goal, right?

For clarification, when it is used as a defense, see Hinkley case, they have a better chance of actually leaving the hospital...

[LisaL]

45. Just by reading this thread, it would uppear that unless I beleive Mr. Holmes is out of his mind,

I am just a plain stupid homicidal maniac.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. I did not say that

but thank you Lisa.

What I said is.. WE NEED TO LET THE PROCESS, WHICH INCLUDES A COMPETENCY HEARING, TAKE IT'S COURSE.

And what I also said is that EMERGING INFORMATION makes it even more important to do.

Now purely hypothetical, what happens in your view if Mr. Holmes joins Mr. Loughner at the same fine Federal facilities?

At that point in my view we really need to start re-examining our attitudes vis a vis mental health, access to such, and preventing the access of weapons to people who have even a short history of such.

[LisaL]

66. It's not like I can stop the process.

And Mr. Holmes can not possibly join Mr. Loughner at the same federal facilities, as Mr. Holmes will be tried in state court if he is judged competent to stand trial.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Given the shortage of facilities for the criminally insane

not all states have them. In California you are correct, we have ONE Hospital for the Criminally insane, but not all states have them. When they do not, the Feds take over, and they only have ONE facility.

So let's assume the Court finds that he is indeed incompetent due to mental issues and cannot help in his own defense... what happens now? What should we as a society do?

Should we string ropes all over the place, or finally start dealing with Mental Health Issues which we stopped doing since oh Reagan opened the doors and closed many State facilities?

Wind, whirlwind comes to mind.

[LisaL]

69. Colorado is not one of the states that doesn't have facilities for the criminally insane.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. So if the court finds he is not competent

To stand trial he will end up at the state facility. You still refuse to answer the question..if he is declared incompetent the implications for our society are important.

But hey, since you already decided none of this matters, why bother asking the question.

Lisa most societies look themselves in the mirror and start asking important questions. I don't expect the us to do that, not after a few more shootings that may, or not, involve mental health issues. The more of those, the more resistance to looking ourselves in the damn mirror though. This..is sad actually.

[wickerwoman]

23. That's not what he/she was saying.

There are circumstances where people are killed and it's a freak of nature or a genuine accident or an unforeseeable circumstance or out of the reasonable control of the person "responsible".

While we always want to have someone to blame, sometimes punishing that person harshly just prolongs the tragedy.

I'm reserving judgment on this particular case because I think there's a strong chance Holmes is malingering, but I also think that in many cases, peoples' calls for the death penalty are premature and inappropriate particularly where mental illness may be involved.

Yes, sometimes 12 people are killed and no one should "pay".

[kestrel91316]

44. Your complete lack of compassion for the mentally ill is duly noted.

Not sure why on earth you consider yourself a Democrat. You strike me as more of a Spanish Inquisition type.

[LisaL]

52. Well I guess I forgot to ask you what I should consider myself as.

Since apparently you consider yourself as an ultimate authority on the subject.

[kestrel91316]

59. I'm certainly more of an authority than you, having read just about everything

there is on the subject over the decades of dealing with my schizophrenic mom.

How many immediate family members do YOU have with paranoid schizophrenia? If none, then where did you do your residency in psychiatry??

[LisaL]

65. Why don't you wait until this guy is actually diagnosed with something?

I really don't get why some here demand everybody has to believe that this guy is a paranoid schizophrenic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Because he already has

his diagnosis, under HIPA has not been made available and the Lawyers asked for HIS MEDICAL RECORD to be sealed.

You did know this, right?

[LisaL]

70. What is his diagnosis, do tell.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. You do understand what HIPA is right?

Given the question you asked, you really don't.

But why do you think it was sealed? Care to take a guess?

[HangOnKids]

76. Nadin This Poster Is Looking For A Fight

Any fight, any time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. I know,

trust me, I know.

[Live and Learn]

94. Very True. And that is a "mental illness"

(or is it a "personality disorder&quot that it seems a growing majority of Americans have.

[agent46]

26. They want it to be normal.

Otherwise, what would these people do with their own unspoken muder/gun fantasies?

[LisaL]

28. Freaking unbelievable.

[Kalidurga]

30. Because they think crazy is white privilege.

It may be true that white people get a "pass" more easily than any other group. But, it doesn't make it automatically true that an individual white person isn't in fact insane. I think we really should debate whether or not violence is a form of insanity. If we did this we might take a closer look at violent individuals and figure out what makes them tick.

[LisaL]

33. Yes, of course, since everything just have to be about race.

[LisaL]

39. You seem to be answering to a question opposite from the question asked by the OP.

[ecstatic]

72. Good points nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Your last part

I think we really should debate whether or not violence is a form of insanity.

I think you might be onto something, more than insanity, mass psychosis.

[loyalsister]

38. This situation reminds of Andrea Yates

When it comes to behavior, "normal" is relative.

It is normal to think about killing people when a person is in a war. I also think it is also not abnormal in absolute terms for a person to want to kill a cheating spouse.

The Andrea Yates connection here is that when her state of mind and logic are factored in, it is a reach, but it is possible to see how she came to the conclusion that led to her horrifying behavior. There are dots that connect to made her behavior comprehensible.

I have known people with mental illnesses who have engaged in destructive behaviors based on delusions. Delusions are not lies and they are not manipulations. They are untrue and or irrational thoughts\ideas that a person sincerely believes to be true.

I don't know if delusions are a part of Holmes' experience, but I think the characterization "out of his mind" is inaccurate. When it comes to mental illness the opposite is true. It is a very sad and isolating existence for people who are plagued with these untrue beliefs. They are alone and stuck IN their minds.

[Douglas Carpenter]

40. I seriously doubt that there is anyone who doesn't realize that someone like Holmes is out of their

mind - well, unless they are just plain stupid. I think some people want a license to want revenge and the idea of suggesting such a person is batshit crazy seems to interfere with their conscience and their ability to feel justified in wanting revenge. Well, it is understandable that people would would want revenge. I completely relate to those emotions and have in fact burned with the desire for revenge over matters infinitely less serious. So, people can go ahead and feel completely free to want revenge. But if they want to live in the world of reality they should still acknowledge the obvious that they surely in their heart of hearts must know - that someone like Holmes is deeply crazy and he would not have committed these murders if he were not. So go ahead and want revenge -but also don't lie to yourself by claiming something absolutely preposterous. Go ahead and want revenge and also admit that Holmes is nuts. You really are allowed to do both.

[LisaL]

41. Amazing how many insults someone can fit into one little post.

[kestrel91316]

46. Your vindictiveness and desire to punish the mentally ill for something

they are not morally or legally responsible for is breathtaking.

[LisaL]

55. Do you understand what an affirmative defense is?

His lawyer has to prove he is insane. But without a shred of evidence, I am supposed to just believe it? And unless I do, it's me who is abnormal?

[kestrel91316]

60. Lawyers need not prove insanity at trial. A mental competency hearing prior to any

trial will show that he is a paranoid schizophrenic if he is one, as I strongly suspect.

If he is, there is no purpose to be served by trying him, any more than there would be in trying an animal who harmed a human.

Even THE STATE understands that it is simply wrong to attempt to convict and punish someone who is severely delusional.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Which is exactly what happend to Jerrard Loughner

who just went though his second hearing, and was found STILL not be capable of standing trial

[Live and Learn]

96. Exactly. And it isn't really hard to see that

someone that has nothing to gain by an act of violence is suffering from a brain abnormality or disease.

Then again, I don't understand what people who seek revenge on these types gain either. Maybe they are ill too.

[kestrel91316]

42. Yeah, I just don't get it. Not every killer is an evil malicious fucker.

Some are genuinely ill people who are controlled by their "demons" aka mental illness/delusions/psychosis.

As someone who had a schizophrenic family member for decades, I find the horrible attitudes on DU toward the mentally ill to be disgusting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. May I recomend a book

Foucault's history of madness.

By the way, you are correct to the attitudes. I know of one man, who's since died, who was schizoid. His disease manifested at the same age as Holmes, and just as "suddenly. "

His carrier as a high level mathematician was over...but talking to him was always interesting. I always wondered if a different mix in meds would have allowed him to actually function.

[eShirl]

74. If this is the mathematician I am thinking of

I believe he was schizophrenic, rather than schizoid

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. No it is not

it was a friend of the family. So no, not the same person

[slackmaster]

47. Some of us want to be able to attribute it to a POLITICAL motivation, which is ridiculous

[NashvilleLefty]

48. ANYONE who commits murder is clearly "out of their mind".

The question is our response to their insanity. We have drawn the line at whether or not the perpetrator knew that their actions were wrong. Which I think is appropriate.

The issue is that many murderers use this as an excuse to avoid punishment.

Holmes' actions are obviously pre-meditated, so he certainly can't use the "temporary insanity" defense. If, indeed, this was the result of long-term issues then we as a society have to ask how did he "fall through the cracks"?

However, the one nagging question in my mind is if he had moments of lucidity, why did he not contradict his actions during those lucid moments?

It would appear that his "mental instability" act was part of his planning from the information that I currently have.

I could be wrong.

But even if he is legitimately unstable, future would-be perpetrators cannot be allowed to perform similar future acts with the intent of avoiding or mitigating punishment by using the same defense.

[pnwmom]

91. His attorneys are more likely, IMHO, to say he has paranoid schizophrenia, not temporary insanity.

A person with paranoid schizophrenia suffers from delusions, but these delusions don't necessarily impair his ability to plan and carry out complicated actions over a period of time.

One example of a person with this disease was John Nash, who as a grad student at Princeton, suffering from delusions and hallucinations (visual and audio) in the early years of his disease, produced work that ended up earning him, decades later, the Nobel Prize in economics.

James Holmes is the right age to have recently developed paranoid schizophrenia, has the typical criminal history (that is, no criminal history) for a schizophrenic but not for a typical murderer (who almost always has a criminal history), and his behavior fits with the diagnosis.

It was no big surprise to people familiar with paranoid schizophrenia to find out that he had been under the care of a psychiatrist who has specialized in the disorder.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/paranoid-schizophrenia/DS00862/DSECTION=symptoms

With paranoid schizophrenia, you're less likely to be affected by mood problems or problems with thinking, concentration and attention.

Key symptoms
Delusions and hallucinations are the symptoms that make paranoid schizophrenia most distinct from other types of schizophrenia.

Delusions. In paranoid schizophrenia, a common delusion is that you're being singled out for harm. For instance, you may believe that the government is monitoring every move you make or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch. You may also have delusions of grandeur — the belief that you can fly, that you're famous or that you have a relationship with a famous person, for example. You hold on to these false beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. Delusions can result in aggression or violence if you believe you must act in self-defense against those who want to harm you.

SNIP

[Honeycombe8]

53. Just because it's not normal doesn't make it insane. Lots of eccentric people out there...

who do non-normal things but are perfectly sane and rational.

I mean, take car elevators for instance....

[Odin2005]

54. Manichean mentality.

People want to believe that there are more truly evil people than there really are.

[DearAbby]

56. Resigning myself for this outcome

families will be in limbo, and everyone harmed, not a clean ending. We like things tidied up in 60 minute intervals.

I hope to god another discussion is started, right along side the debate about gun control. Mental health in our country. Long past time to address it.

[reformist2]

57. He could be out of his mind, but I understand why some would be skeptical.

[alarimer]

58. Because we are simplistic and want or need simplistic answers

We don't do complexity or nuance.

[Old Codger]

64. Byany normal standard

In or "normal" world he is definitely crazy but in under the law he may not be "legally" crazy. By our "normal" thinking anyone who kills someone else is crazy.. But that is not how it is decided "legally" all they have to prove is that he understood that what he was doing was wrong and that it would cause harm to people, that is it that is his job if he decides to use an "insanity" defense he must claim that he did not believe that what he was doing was wrong and that he actually had no "intent" to harm anyone that he did not believe that he was harming anyone.

This is a loose definition of the law on that in most states.

In a case long time ago in Cal. a supreme court judge actually allowed a killer to have his sentence overturned because he claimed that he did not understand that he was actually killing someone when he cut off their head.

[jberryhill]

77. How he got re-elected is what amazes me

[daligirl519]

80. A lot of people who do awful things are crazy . . .

Clinically speaking. But by law they are culpable because they knew right from wrong. Most "crazy" people do not engage in horrible behavior except maybe to themselves.

[Union Scribe]

84. Great post.

I think the attitude in this thread that mentally ill people are completely incapable of choosing their actions is very unfair to the mentally ill. Not all schizophrenics are mass murders waiting to happen just as not all depressives are suicides waiting to happen. There are many other factors besides the appearance of thoughts or urges.

[Monk06]

82. Where there is no obvious politcal motive or revenge, you're probably looking insanity even

with Holme's careful prepared. After all attention to detail would come natural for someone with his intellectual capacity.

[treestar]

83. Maybe because it makes people more nervous to think

the person has no control. It could be easier to think he decided to do it, and if so, that meant it was under his control.

It is scarier to think of people out of control than people in control. Maybe the person in control can think not to do it or be talked out of it. And if people can do out of control, it could happen to us and we want to deny that possibility.

It's like when people "blame the victim" for walking alone at night, etc., and they are attacked. They are just thinking, "I can prevent that from happening from me by not walking alone at night," rather than really blaming the victim.

[Union Scribe]

85. What percentage of people who hurt other people

would you say are incapable of controlling their actions due to mental illness? Open question for anyone in this thread. It's my contention that sometimes people hurt and cause pain and kill because they want to, not because they had to. No, it isn't normal thinking that produces that, but is abnormality automatically a signal for not being at fault or not having the will to choose?

[Scootaloo]

86. Thing is, lots of people see psychiatrists

Lots of people are on meds. Lots of people drink mountain dew.

Most of these people - an extreme majority, in fact - do not plot a mass murder for months and then carry it out as planned when planned.

I can believe that he's a sociopath... But most sociopaths are pretty good at the whole "not killing people" thing, since, you know, the consequences of such an action would interfere with the sociopath's own well-being.

I don't buy it when people try to come out with any excuse possible to make James Holmes "also a victim."

I'm not interested in vengeance. I don't want the man executed. But I think all this effort spent to "explain" his actions is fucking dumb.

He was an asshole who wanted to kill people. Why is that so difficult to believe?

[Corgigal]

98. not difficult for me at all to understand

funny how no one thinks its a mental illness when some asshole gets pissed at an ex and kills her/him and half their family they don't look at all these mental illnesses. This young entitled narcissistic world wasn't going to plan and he got pissed. Instead of acting suicidal he turned it into homicidal and decided society would pay.

My brother is a paranoid bi polar and it showed in his teens. The idea of him attending a college classroom and not freaking out everyone in there is almost laughable. The idea that he could hold it together for 4 years to earn a bachelors of science degree is unthinkable. He's on 100 disability and really shouldn't go anywhere alone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. On the other hand

We know personally of a case that went from PhD to psych ward in six months flat. Granted, he became a ward of the state, but it happens.

[Corgigal]

111. sure it can

and i hope an honest jury does a good job with this ah "suspect". That is what the jury does. Time will tell.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. I hope the court does the job first of determining if he can even stand trial

and assist in his own defense.

[quaker bill]

92. Insane is easy

Only insane people do stuff like that.

Legally, the insanity defense has problems here. Regardless of whether his motivations were insane, the man went out on different occasions to purchase guns, ammo, and body armor. He planned an attack and then executed it. This level of intentionality over time is not particularly consistent with the insanity defense.

The insanity defense is not based on a technical diagnosis of mental illness (which I am sure he meets), but whether he had sufficient awareness of his own actions to understand that he was violating the law by doing this. Sneaking the guns in by way of the fire exit is likely enough to disprove the insanity defense all by itself.

If he was confused enough to think bringing guns to a movie was normal and fine, he would have attempted to walk in the front door with them, this would have made him a better candidate for the insanity defense.

In this country there is a big difference between being actually insane and being able to use your insanity as a criminal defense.

[lynne]

97. I have no problem believing he was seriously mentally ill -

- his age and gender makes him a prime candidate for schizophrenia. Don't have a clue about his genetics or what the psychiatrist had determined his problem was.

You are right that people in their "right mind" wouldn't consider doing what he did. Or what the Unabomber did. Or what Jared Loughner did. Or what Jeffrey Dahmer did.

It's mental illness that we need to be focusing on to prevent these killings.

[justiceischeap]

115. Well, on one hand, it sucks for the mentally ill to be lumped into the "crazy, psycho" group

It happens all the time, further stigmatizing mental illness and I think on the other hand, people have a hard time linking his detailed planning with mental illness. The picture we're often painted in entertainment is that mentally ill people come in two varieties, Dexter and so crazy they're mumbling about god and planets in russian or making up outrageous conspiracies. Those are the two common portrayals of mental illness on TV and it influences us whether we want to admit that or not.

Finally, Holmes may be legally, criminally mentally ill or he could have decided he'd had enough with it all and wanted to make a statement that made sense only to him (yes, that is still mental illness but not necessarily the kind where voices tell you to do something.) He also could have taken too many drugs that fucked up his head in a major way, but does that fall under mental illness? For all we know, this could have been a drug-induced episode kinda like the bath-salts cannibalism stuff a few months back.

Personally, I'm tired of people self-diagnosing before a doctor tells us what is going on.