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lutherj

(2,496 posts)
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 04:57 PM Mar 2018

From Scalia's majority opinion in D.C. vs. Heller, re: gun control

I decided to make this post in response to the alt-right circulating a doctored photo of Emma Gonzalez tearing the Constitution. I’m not a lawyer or constitutional scholar, but I’ve long been perplexed by the meaning and application of the 2nd Amendment, and decided to do a little reading (hardly exhaustive) on the subject.

The 2008 District of Columbia vs Heller ruling by the Supreme Court is the most recent court finding on the 2nd Amendment. As the alt-right likes to hold up the US Constitution like they own it, and preach about it as though only they possess the cognitive skills to understand it, I thought I would quote a short section from Scalia’s opinion, so we can see what a right wing Supreme Court Justice had to say about gun regulation:

“Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. See, e.g., Sheldon, in 5 Blume 346; Rawle 123; Pomeroy 152–153; Abbott333. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. See, e.g., State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann., at 489–490; Nunn v. State, 1 Ga., at 251; see generally 2 Kent *340, n. 2; The American Students’ Blackstone 84, n. 11 (G. Chase ed. 1884). Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment , nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.26

“We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” See 4 Blackstone 148–149 (1769); 3 B. Wilson, Works of the Honourable James Wilson 79 (1804); J. Dunlap, The New-York Justice 8 (1815); C. Humphreys, A Compendium of the Common Law in Force in Kentucky 482 (1822); 1 W. Russell, A Treatise on Crimes and Indictable Misdemeanors 271–272 (1831); H. Stephen, Summary of the Criminal Law 48 (1840); E. Lewis, An Abridgment of the Criminal Law of the United States 64 (1847); F. Wharton, A Treatise on the Criminal Law of the United States 726 (1852). See also State v. Langford, 10 N. C. 381, 383–384 (1824); O’Neill v. State, 16Ala. 65, 67 (1849); English v. State, 35Tex. 473, 476 (1871); State v. Lanier, 71 N. C. 288, 289 (1874).

“It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment ’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.”

........

There you have it from the horse’s mouth. It should be abundantly clear from Scalia’s words that owning an AR-15, which is a civilian knock-off of the M-16, is not a protected right under the 2nd Amendment.

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From Scalia's majority opinion in D.C. vs. Heller, re: gun control (Original Post) lutherj Mar 2018 OP
The impediment to strict gun control is the lack of wide and deep public support, not the 2A hack89 Mar 2018 #1
Its the lack of congressional support and political will. The public overwhelmingly supports lutherj Mar 2018 #2
But unfortunately only about half the public actually votes. hack89 Mar 2018 #8
None have been taken up by the supreme court yet, either. fallout87 Mar 2018 #4
They have refused several times to take up AWB cases hack89 Mar 2018 #9
Public support has zero to do with interpretation of the law treestar Mar 2018 #19
Need to clear something up... fallout87 Mar 2018 #3
'not in common use' vs elleng Mar 2018 #5
I think the number carries the meaning "common" well enough. Igel Mar 2018 #7
Scalia quotes Miller, *in common use at the time*, meaning at the time the amendment was lutherj Mar 2018 #10
In the context of your OP, it is relevant. fallout87 Mar 2018 #16
Scalia's own words don't mention an AR-15, but are you alluding to... aikoaiko Mar 2018 #6
"an AR-15, which is a civilian knock-off of the M-16" EX500rider Mar 2018 #11
You ignore the in common use part that is extremely important here Lee-Lee Mar 2018 #12
In common use **at the time**. lutherj Mar 2018 #13
"assault style rifles were banned for a period of time in the 90s" EX500rider Mar 2018 #14
True, the legislation was full of loopholes. They did list certain weapons by name that were lutherj Mar 2018 #15
No, as the poster above explained certain features were banned. fallout87 Mar 2018 #17
But renamed AR-15s were perfectly legal hack89 Mar 2018 #18

hack89

(39,171 posts)
1. The impediment to strict gun control is the lack of wide and deep public support, not the 2A
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 05:01 PM
Mar 2018

no AWB has ever been declared unconstitutional.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
8. But unfortunately only about half the public actually votes.
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 06:04 PM
Mar 2018

Once thing that recent history has shown us is that public support does not always translate into votes. And none of the polls regarding gun control are limited to likely voters. And it is very unlikely that all that public support is evenly distributed. We do not hold national referendums. Politicians will not look at national polls - they care only about the people that can vote for him. The fact that blue states overwhelmingly support gun control means nothing to a politician in a red state.

 

fallout87

(819 posts)
4. None have been taken up by the supreme court yet, either.
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 05:12 PM
Mar 2018

If tRump gets another supreme court appointment, I guarantee they will hear a case and throw out AWB's under the common use argument.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
9. They have refused several times to take up AWB cases
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 06:07 PM
Mar 2018

so far they are more than happy with the status quo.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
19. Public support has zero to do with interpretation of the law
Tue Mar 27, 2018, 10:16 AM
Mar 2018

which included the Second. Zero. If the majority of the Public wanted Roman Catholicism as the national religion, they will not get it.

 

fallout87

(819 posts)
3. Need to clear something up...
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 05:11 PM
Mar 2018

An M-16 is not an AR-15. An M-16 is capable of full auto fire. The Ar-15 is semi automatic only. Scalia's opinion says that we may not ban firearms in common use. It would be hard to argue that the AR15 is not in common use. There are millions of them in civilian hands

lutherj

(2,496 posts)
10. Scalia quotes Miller, *in common use at the time*, meaning at the time the amendment was
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 06:14 PM
Mar 2018

ratified. AR-15s are in common use now, but that’s irrelevant to Scalia’s argument. I’m aware that the AR-15 is semi-automatic only. That’s also irrelevant.

 

fallout87

(819 posts)
16. In the context of your OP, it is relevant.
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 08:31 PM
Mar 2018

Banning a fully automatic gun was deemed constitutional by the majority in Heller. Banning a semi automatic rifle was not.

AR15 does not equal and M16.

Also, AR15's are in common use at this time. The second amendment makes no such claim that only muskets are protected.

aikoaiko

(34,165 posts)
6. Scalia's own words don't mention an AR-15, but are you alluding to...
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 05:46 PM
Mar 2018

..."M-16 rifles and the like"

or

... “dangerous and unusual weapons.”

or just more generally.

EX500rider

(10,833 posts)
11. "an AR-15, which is a civilian knock-off of the M-16"
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 06:19 PM
Mar 2018

Actually it is a semi-auto firearm that looks like the fully auto machine gun M-16/M-4 that that military uses.
The AR-15 fires one round per pull of the trigger, the M-4 has select fire: single round, 3 round burst and full auto.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
12. You ignore the in common use part that is extremely important here
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 06:32 PM
Mar 2018

The decision said that firearms protect by the Second Amendment are those “in common use”

If you are talking about the AR-15, it is the most common and popular rifle style sold in the last two decades. Since it was introduced more than 50 years ago millions have been made by well over 100 different manufacturers.

Or all types of designs of rifles it is by far the most commonly made and sold.

Based on estimate of the number of rifles in private hands versus the number of AR style rifles made around 8-10% of the rifles owned are AR-15’s.

While they bear a relationship with the M-16, you can’t use that to try and say they are not protected. Because “it looks like” is not the same legally as “it is the same as”. M-16’s are not in “common usage” among the public. AR-15s are.

lutherj

(2,496 posts)
13. In common use **at the time**.
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 07:44 PM
Mar 2018

“At the time” means in use at the time the amendment was ratified. The third paragraph elaborates on this, and particularly the last sentence of the third paragraph. Congress could constitutionally ban all semi-automatic guns, according to Scalia — at least as I read it. I don’t think they ever would, nor am I advocating such an action.

In fact, assault style rifles were banned for a period of time in the 90s. The law had a sunset clause and Bush let the law expire.

EX500rider

(10,833 posts)
14. "assault style rifles were banned for a period of time in the 90s"
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 07:49 PM
Mar 2018

Not really, they banned some features on assault style rifles, things like bayonet mounts and flash suppressors, the manufacturers made a few changes and continued to sell them.

lutherj

(2,496 posts)
15. True, the legislation was full of loopholes. They did list certain weapons by name that were
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 08:07 PM
Mar 2018

prohibited. The list included the Colt AR-15. So the AR-15 was banned for 10 years until the law expired.

 

fallout87

(819 posts)
17. No, as the poster above explained certain features were banned.
Mon Mar 26, 2018, 08:37 PM
Mar 2018

Certain model names were banned like the colt AR15 and Armalite AR10, but those are only model names. All colt had to do was make a new lower, call it the Colt 6921 and it was legal to sell.

Thats the problem with AR15 bans. They ban certain features and then the manufacturers just figure out workarounds.

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