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Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:33 AM

Do y'all realize how much the Joe Biden "frontrunner" talk smacks of white male entitlement?

Not only is it premature to be labeling a frontrunner this early in the game before anyone has even gotten in the race, but I seem to recall lots of griping about Hillary Clinton expecting a "coronation" even when she was in the race fighting like hell to win the nomination.

Moreover, many of the reasons given for Biden's supposed superiority over any other possible candidate are the same reasons used to diminish Hillary Clinton - his experience (her experience made her too establishment), longevity (she'd been around too long), political acumen (her acumen meant she was calculating), toughness (she was harsh), spontaneity (WHY did she SAY that? NOT HELPFUL, Hillary!), etc.

This can't be viewed in a vacuum, but must be considered in historical and social context. White men have historically been a given credit for things that minorities and women are not credited for; in fact those same attributes we laud white men for are usually seen as deficits in women and minorities. And often they get spotted extra points for just being the white guy (couched in other, more innocuous gems like, "he's so competent!" and my favorite "he just a regular guy."

Joe Biden could be a great candidate. But so could Eric Holder and Elizabeth Warren and Cory Booker and Kirsten Gillibrand and Kamala Harris and Deval Patrick. Let's not ignore them, put them at the back of the line or make them play catch up because we've decided to give Joe Biden the white guy head start.

I'm urging my fellow Democrats to take a close look and think about whether privilege is coming into play and helping to shape some of your opinions about this race. Be clear, I'm not calling you a racist or sexist nor do I assume you are. But we all have biases (I know I do) and unless we are willing to look at them, recognize and try to overcome them, we're not going to make any progress.

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Reply Do y'all realize how much the Joe Biden "frontrunner" talk smacks of white male entitlement? (Original post)
EffieBlack Mar 2018 OP
IluvPitties Mar 2018 #1
DemocracyMouse Mar 2018 #97
still_one Mar 2018 #127
Taraman Mar 2018 #112
lillypaddle Mar 2018 #125
Magoo48 Mar 2018 #173
NNadir Mar 2018 #232
David__77 Mar 2018 #2
FreepFryer Mar 2018 #3
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #11
FreepFryer Mar 2018 #16
NCTraveler Mar 2018 #40
FreepFryer Mar 2018 #73
NCTraveler Mar 2018 #79
mythology Mar 2018 #248
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #249
vkkv Mar 2018 #93
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #100
vkkv Mar 2018 #104
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #133
vkkv Mar 2018 #188
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #192
vkkv Mar 2018 #196
Blue_true Mar 2018 #239
SomethingNew Mar 2018 #4
elehhhhna Mar 2018 #207
Drahthaardogs Mar 2018 #246
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #253
leftstreet Mar 2018 #5
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #27
progressoid Mar 2018 #148
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #183
progressoid Mar 2018 #201
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #230
Blue_true Mar 2018 #243
Blue_true Mar 2018 #241
flibbitygiblets Mar 2018 #31
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #41
leftstreet Mar 2018 #47
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #54
leftstreet Mar 2018 #56
Baconator Mar 2018 #263
barbtries Mar 2018 #68
progressoid Mar 2018 #156
barbtries Mar 2018 #198
flibbitygiblets Mar 2018 #75
vkkv Mar 2018 #110
WhiskeyGrinder Mar 2018 #6
FSogol Mar 2018 #7
Dulcinea Mar 2018 #26
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #29
Me. Mar 2018 #8
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #22
Me. Mar 2018 #28
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #39
Me. Mar 2018 #81
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #103
Me. Mar 2018 #118
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #140
dottie66 Mar 2018 #132
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #139
Blue_true Mar 2018 #244
monmouth4 Mar 2018 #9
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #106
FakeNoose Mar 2018 #116
Mojo2 Mar 2018 #10
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #20
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #23
FreepFryer Mar 2018 #30
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #37
Blue_Adept Mar 2018 #60
FreepFryer Mar 2018 #74
Fullduplexxx Mar 2018 #32
Ms. Toad Mar 2018 #215
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #222
Cartoonist Mar 2018 #12
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #18
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #33
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #42
Blue_true Mar 2018 #245
TommyCelt Mar 2018 #143
Jake Stern Mar 2018 #219
Cartoonist Mar 2018 #250
BeyondGeography Mar 2018 #13
Demsrule86 Mar 2018 #14
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #46
DownriverDem Mar 2018 #155
NCTraveler Mar 2018 #51
JustABozoOnThisBus Mar 2018 #15
babylonsister Mar 2018 #17
flibbitygiblets Mar 2018 #43
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #58
WhiskeyGrinder Mar 2018 #102
karynnj Mar 2018 #203
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #212
karynnj Mar 2018 #217
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #223
karynnj Mar 2018 #235
The Mouth Mar 2018 #242
LineLineLineReply .
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EffieBlack Mar 2018 #48
NCTraveler Mar 2018 #19
treestar Mar 2018 #21
brooklynite Mar 2018 #24
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COLGATE4 Mar 2018 #36
Scurrilous Mar 2018 #131
Codeine Mar 2018 #25
pandr32 Mar 2018 #77
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #147
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Marcuse Mar 2018 #137
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EffieBlack Mar 2018 #86
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EricMaundry Mar 2018 #57
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EffieBlack Mar 2018 #76
EricMaundry Mar 2018 #258
IronLionZion Mar 2018 #59
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Chemisse Mar 2018 #62
barbtries Mar 2018 #64
jimlup Mar 2018 #66
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #82
jimlup Mar 2018 #213
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #220
ismnotwasm Mar 2018 #70
LexVegas Mar 2018 #71
oberliner Mar 2018 #83
Blue_playwright Mar 2018 #84
vkkv Mar 2018 #85
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #92
vkkv Mar 2018 #95
LexVegas Mar 2018 #109
vkkv Mar 2018 #114
GeorgeGist Mar 2018 #87
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Kurt V. Mar 2018 #90
lpbk2713 Mar 2018 #91
Proud Liberal Dem Mar 2018 #94
left-of-center2012 Mar 2018 #96
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LexVegas Mar 2018 #105
WhiteTara Mar 2018 #98
elleng Mar 2018 #107
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askyagerz Mar 2018 #113
bucolic_frolic Mar 2018 #115
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FreepFryer Mar 2018 #145
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #149
Still In Wisconsin Mar 2018 #119
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LWolf Mar 2018 #120
disillusioned73 Mar 2018 #179
MicaelS Mar 2018 #231
LWolf Mar 2018 #264
get the red out Mar 2018 #121
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #153
lillypaddle Mar 2018 #123
themaguffin Mar 2018 #124
Kentonio Mar 2018 #130
The Mouth Mar 2018 #135
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milestogo Mar 2018 #237
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druidity33 Mar 2018 #240
phylny Mar 2018 #247
EffieBlack Mar 2018 #251
BeyondGeography Mar 2018 #256
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DonCoquixote Mar 2018 #252
Progressive dog Mar 2018 #254
Jarqui Mar 2018 #255
Baconator Mar 2018 #259
ucrdem Mar 2018 #260
Garrett78 Mar 2018 #261

Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:35 AM

1. Person of color here who loves Joe Biden.

He's my #1 choice, at least for now.

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Response to IluvPitties (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:02 PM

97. Person of European descent here thinking he's often out of touch.

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Response to DemocracyMouse (Reply #97)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:37 PM

127. Just another person who thinks Joe's time has come and gone. There are better candidates we have to

offer for 2020

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Response to IluvPitties (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:17 PM

112. Senior citizen here

who thinks he's too old. I still have my wits about me, but it's a real mixed bag in my age group.

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Response to Taraman (Reply #112)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:32 PM

125. Yep.

me, too Taraman. And welcome to DU.

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Response to Taraman (Reply #112)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:17 PM

173. Agreed, time for the 70 somethings to step aside...

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Response to Taraman (Reply #112)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 04:39 PM

232. I once spent an afternoon with Freeman Dyson...

...not long ago, after he had reached his 90s.

His intellect in his 90s vastly outstripped that of any person I have ever personally met of any age, and trust me, I travel in highly intellectual circles.

We discussed some very obscure topics in physics, chemistry, and biology and even history. At no point did I feel that he was unable to discuss any topic I raised at less than an expert level.

I am personally an old fat bald guy, but I am acutely aware that, as Ingmar Bergmann put it, that growing old is like climbing a mountain, one's breath gets shorter but one's views grow more expansive.

Trump's puerile nature almost certainly reflects a lifelong intellectual and moral vapidity that probably is only mildly related to senility.

I am open to all candidates and have no formal bias against age. The choice of most Americans in the last election, negated by the slave era artifact of the Electoral College, was for a mature woman of a certain age with a high intellect. If allowed to serve, I believe her age and experience would have guided our country wisely.

Speaking only for myself, I am wiser, smarter and better able to address difficulties than I have ever been at any other point in my life.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)


Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:38 AM

3. I prefer Biden (the first VP to serve under the first Black president of the US) to the others.

I can - and do - prefer Biden without perpetuating a racist frame.

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Response to FreepFryer (Reply #3)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:45 AM

11. If you think this is a "racist frame" you must not have read my entire OP

And if you did, you completely missed the point.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #11)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:49 AM

16. I didn't say it was - I'm saying my preference for Biden is not based in racial/gender bias...

Just as your OP clearly implores us to self-examine.

The result of my self-examination is that my preference for the qualified, strong and proven capabilities of Vice President Joe Biden is neither a product, nor a manifestation, nor an act, of white male privilege or entitlement.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #11)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:05 AM

40. "you completely missed the point."

 

Many are going to miss your well constructed point. Those who do will have replies that are more knee-jerk, reactionary and completely off-point.

One of our greatest problems on the left is the lack of understanding with respect to white privilege, as a whole. We have our own who recoil and strike whenever this conversation might encompass them.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #40)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:35 AM

73. Agreed - and many will get it, and reject it even while understanding white male privilege. (n/t)

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Response to FreepFryer (Reply #73)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:37 AM

79. Yes, they will. Nt

 

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #40)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 07:43 PM

248. Or perhaps people don't take it seriously given the last frontrunner

 

Clinton was the clear frontrunner for 2016 in 2008. It wasn't female privilege that got her that. It was resume and the fact that she had widespread name recognition.

The framing isn't well supported. It presumes without actually analyzing the presumptions closely. Biden isn't considered the front runner because he's a white guy anymore than McCain was in 2008 or Gore in 2000.

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Response to mythology (Reply #248)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 08:22 PM

249. Are you serious?

You really believe Hillary was treated fairly in the last campaign, that she faced no difficulties based on her gender?

Yes, Hillary was the front runner, not because she was a woman but in spite of it. And she was treated worse than any man with her background, experience and qualifications would be - evidenced by the double standard Iím raising here which treats similar traits in very different ways, depending on whether a man or woman displays them.

And like a few others here, youíve completely missed my plainly stated point. I ne er said nor implied that Biden is the front runner because heís a white man. I said that the fact that he is being given credit for traits that are seen as negatives in women.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #11)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:56 AM

93. So when you wrote this in your OP it had NOTHING to with race ?? see

 



""" And often they get spotted extra points for just being the white guy (couched in other, more innocuous gems like, "he's so competent!" and my favorite "he just a regular guy." """"


Nope, not framed on any racism at all - Get off of it!

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Response to vkkv (Reply #93)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:06 PM

100. Um - talking about race is not a "racist frame"

Wow.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #100)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:10 PM

104. It is when you are telling that Joe Biden is the front runner b/c he is white. You called it

 


"white entitlement". How is that not a racist statement? Please explain.

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Response to vkkv (Reply #104)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:44 PM

133. Because white entitlement/privilege is not the same as racism.

Please see my post below.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #133)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:32 PM

188. They are not the same, but white entlement / privilege is racist. see text

 

Racism covers many forms including Hispanic vs. Afric Amer., White vs. Asian, Asian, vs. Indian,.. White entitlement / privilege is only one piece of the racist pie.

To bring up 'white entitlement' as you have is a racist comment.

To say as you have, that Joe Biden is the front runner because of white entitlement IS IN FACT A RACIST STATEMENT.

What's not to understand ?

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Response to vkkv (Reply #188)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:40 PM

192. I brought up white male privilege - why are you focusing only on the white part

And talking about white privilege or male privilege or white male privilege is NOT racist or sexist.

Unless you believe that neither privilege exists in our society?

Also, I suggest you do some research about racism since you seem to be completely unaware of what it actually is and why it is not racist to say that a white man in today's America enjoys certain privileges by virtue of his race and gender that women and minorities are not afforded.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #192)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:58 PM

196. Most of what you say is correct, however, your OP did not mention ONE SINGLE quality of

 


Joe Biden's that would qualify him as a likely front runner. You only said it was "white entitlement"... (the guy WAS V.P. for 8 years and a Senator for 36 years for gawd's sake) That is very much the same type of statement as right-wing-racist have said that the only reason Obama was elected is b/c he is Black, without mentioning Obama's the many qualities that got him elected. See that?

Basically, if you're saying that Biden's potential is based on white privilege only - that is a racist statement.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #11)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 06:47 PM

239. Effie, the reality is that Hillary was under a masked attack.

And a lot of people that call themselves progressive fell for the lies about her. I honestly think that 2020 will be the year a woman breaks through, we have several that are not afraid of a good fight, Duckworth, Harris, and to the haters, yes, Gillibrand. Either of those women have shown that they are more that ready to bloody Trump when he comes after them. My guess is the country is going to be sick of Trump by 2020, he would need a strong economy to avoid defeat, anything else and he is done by a large margin. I think that Booker and Klobuchar can be a little soft on attacks at times, Trump relishes that and use it to divert attention from his cluelessness.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:39 AM

4. This post only makes sense if

The people calling him the "frontrunner" were anti-Hillary. Seems to me that the support groups most likely overlap to a large degree so your supposed hypocritical statements are actually just consistency.

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Response to SomethingNew (Reply #4)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:17 PM

207. We really are look closely at the sexist side of things

 

I stated at least 15 years ago that America would elect a black man before any woman. Am I psychic? No. Just stating the obvious

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Response to SomethingNew (Reply #4)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 07:17 PM

246. Or if you are drunk.

I read it the first time and said "Such Bullshit. Someone looking to a pick a fight that isn't there"

A bottle and a half of wine later, it made lots of sense!

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #246)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 08:44 PM

253. You should drink more wine

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:40 AM

5. I think people are just trying to figure out how to beat Trump

Their preference for Joe Biden says more about what they think 2016 voters wanted, than it does about themselves

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:54 AM

27. No I like Joe and I got to say if Sen. Sanders runs, and I hope he doesn't, we need a strong

candidate to beat him soundly and get him out of the primary fast before we have 2016 style division. Biden can do this.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #27)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:59 PM

148. Ha.

Do you ever let an election thread go by without venting your spleen about Sanders?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #148)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:26 PM

183. I actually don't have hard feeling for Sanders...but I notice you rush to his defense even when its

not warranted. I speak of the divisive nature of a Sanders 20 candidacy. I don't believe the 2016 divisions have healed. I fear a Sanders run as we might lose in in 20. in my opinion four more years of Republicans would doom the progressive movement. I hope Sen. Sanders will not run for the good of the country. We need fresh blood...but if Sen. Sanders does run, we need as Democrats to immediately choose one Democratic candidate to get behind so as not to have a long divisive primary and so we ultimately nominate someone who can win a general.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #183)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:03 PM

201. You know this is the internet right?

There's even a search tab above for finding your numerous posts that disprove you "don't have hard feeling for Sanders."

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Response to progressoid (Reply #201)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 04:34 PM

230. My concern is the next presidential election. I believe him to be divisive and that could cause

us to lose. I also have not appreciated remarks about the Democratic Party...but I do not personally dislike Sen.Sanders. In fact, in Ohio, I voted for him in the primary. He has disappointed me without question since, but I have no personal animosity towards him. I merely want him to refrain from running in 20. The election is crucial for our side. We must win...and if I attacked Sen. Sanders as you charge, I would be in trouble of this site. There is a difference in not wanting someone to run and disliking them. Now, perhaps you might find something more interesting to discuss than how I feel about Sen. Sanders because it really doesn't matter.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #230)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 07:00 PM

243. Good reply.

I was in the Hillary camp, based upon crossing swords with you recently, I fully believe that you voted for Bernie is the primary and that should not be doubted. My biggest fear for 2020 primary is division coming back to hurt our party. I see early signs of that in Texas, California and Maryland and Bernie has inserted himself squarely in some of the democrat on democrat primaries. IMO, that is not good.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #183)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 06:52 PM

241. Bernie is giving all indications that he is running.

I, like you, hope that if not Biden, some democrat emerge to beat him soundly and leave no doubt that is what voters wanted. I am not convinced, based upon what I have observed, that Bernie staying in the race for long is good for the party.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:55 AM

31. That's how I see it. Biden is respected by left & right. Disillusioned R's will vote for Biden.

I want a perfect candidate too. I'd LOVE to see more women & POC in highest offices. But more than all of that, I want to win.

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Response to flibbitygiblets (Reply #31)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:06 AM

41. I hear you - but that's always the excuse used to keep white men in power

Yes, yes - diversity's good but now's not the time for it. We need to win, so let's go with the white guy this time. We'll do the diversity thing later after we win this time.

Barack Obama kicked McCain's and Romney's butts. And, on the way, he kicked Biden's butt, too. Why do you assume a female or minority candidate can't do the same to Trump? That only an old white guy could do the deed?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #41)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:09 AM

47. Obama wasn't running against an incumbent

It's a completely different political situation

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #47)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:17 AM

54. So only a white guy can beat an incumbent?

And the minorities and women need to sit it out until the next "open" presidential race?

White guys lose to incumbents all the time.

The incumbency argument doesn't even make any sense.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #54)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:19 AM

56. No. Hillary definitely would have beaten McCain

..but not the incumbent Bush

I was only suggesting the incumbent issue is significant when choosing a candidate. People are speculating about a front runner based on Trump as an incumbent

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #54)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:32 PM

263. It's not a matter of being the 'only' choice...

I've got a chance to win in 2020 too but Biden might have the best odds.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #47)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:29 AM

68. this incumbent

is like no other. he is the weakest ever.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #68)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:03 PM

156. He was the worst candidate to ever run in my lifetime. Yet he still won.

63 million votes.

Let's not under-estimate the idiocy of the American voter.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #156)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:02 PM

198. true, but not legitimately.

the perfidy of the Nov2016 election was very deep. i am convinced that our President was wrongfully denied her office.

we need people to vote. as long as turnout is high we will win. only time will tell.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #41)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:36 AM

75. Effie, the problem is, 1/3 of the country doesn't agree with us--yet.

I don't think anyone is saying a woman or POC absolutely CAN'T win. I think what some of us are saying here is that we unfortunately share this country with a bunch of back-assward bigots. Ignoring that is what got us Donald J Trump. Much as I agree with your arguments, absolutely nothing is worth that.

Having said that, if Booker, or Harris, or any of my dream candidates are first in the primary, I will support them with every fiber of my being. And I know this sounds like a "consolation prize", but if Biden does run and gets the nomination, I have every expectation that he will ask a woman AND a person of color to be VP. I'm betting Biden would promise to only run one term. And the rest would be herstory.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #41)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:15 PM

110. Geeezzuzz - This is a racist statement. Let the most qualified win! You really don't see your

 


viewpoints or statements as racist do you... THAT is a problem..

Nice line here btw """ I hear you - but that's always the excuse used to keep white men in power"""

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:41 AM

6. Representation is still so new that the system continues to reward people who have "paid their

dues," which still tend to be white men. Biden is a great meme, has done good work, and is problematic for me in some ways. He's *a* good candidate on a bench of good candidates. I don't like him being the assumed presidential candidate, however.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:41 AM

7. It smacks more of name recognition. We did nominate HRC last time and Barack Obama before her.

I doubt Biden runs. All of the talk of front runners is nothing more than name recognition, pointless speculation, and kingmaker jostling between Democratic insiders.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #7)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:53 AM

26. Agreed.

I don't think he'll run either. The poor man has suffered enough.

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Response to Dulcinea (Reply #26)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:54 AM

29. He has had presidential fever for years...if he is healthy, and there is support, he will run.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:41 AM

8. i Get Your Point

Though it may be inconvenient to others. Joe is one of the good guys, but still part of the club.

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Response to Me. (Reply #8)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:51 AM

22. I am ok with the club...as long as a Democrat wins.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #22)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:54 AM

28. I Want DEms To Win

But I also want a level playing field so that all Dems, no matter who, can win.

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Response to Me. (Reply #28)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:04 AM

39. That will never happen...Dems start at different places...they just do. It can

never be achieved...we have primaries (get rid of caucuses) and we vote. Pres. Obama was not known as well as Hillary Clinton in 08. Certainly he did not start at a level playing field. Some supers had already come out for Hillary However he didn't complain or attack the party instead he ran a good campaign. He won a competitive primary despite the odds stacked in his opponents favor initially. There was no way to make the playing field 'level' for President Obama. And there will be no way to do so with future candidates.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #39)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:43 AM

81. THere Is AWay

But it will take a major change in the way females/minorities are treated in society. The number of negative stories about her were vastly greater in number than for any of the males, the Comey business while at the same time, not even a peep that Comrade Trump was being investigated, the hypocrisy and double standard over what was reported was appalling. PBO won fair and square, worked for it. He also picked a very smart team to back him up but the reporting on the both of them were more even steven than in other races though of course, the RW came after the black man with double barrels once the primary was over. And I can't say the barrage thrown at HRC what with Comey, Russia, a primary competitor who asserted corruptness, was worse than what he had to endure given the racism. But Joe, given his flaws never had to face what the 2 of them did nor did Comrade Trump.

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Response to Me. (Reply #81)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:10 PM

103. It may change over time as people become more accustomed to female candidates and

I agree Hillary was treated unlike any other candidate....very unfairly. However, you are kind of echoing my point, we can't change it through the DNC...hearts and minds must change. I have to tell you as a woman, I want a female president. I was devastated when Hillary did not win (I think she won but can't be proven). I have to say, I would hesitate to vote for a woman primary candidate because we need to win so desperately in 20, and I fear we cannot elect a woman at this moment in our country.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #103)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:25 PM

118. Before I Make Any Voting Decisions

I will have to see the lay of the land...it may be that the Comrade in the WH may, himself, be a precipitator of change, if people say we want someone other than a white man for our next pres.

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Response to Me. (Reply #118)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:53 PM

140. That would be wonderful and it could happen. I like all the Democratic Candidates

so I will be happy no matter what...winning is so important this go round.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #103)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:43 PM

132. I agree, you make good points.

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Response to dottie66 (Reply #132)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:51 PM

139. I am not happy about the situation but we must must win in 20.

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Response to Me. (Reply #28)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 07:06 PM

244. What is a level playing field?

Interesting to read your description of it. I think a level playing field is forcing super delegates to not endorse a candidate or campaign with a candidate as long as the presumptive nominee for the party is not clear. And a level playing field is closed or monitored open primaries with no caucuses.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:42 AM

9. I'm an Eric Holder fan, he has it all. n/t

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Response to monmouth4 (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:10 PM

106. He is so smart...great guy.

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Response to monmouth4 (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:20 PM

116. Is Holder even interested?

I haven't heard that he is, but maybe he's keeping quiet while he explores the possibilities.

Speaking for myself, I'm totally committed to getting a Democrat into the White House. I'll back our Dem candidate no matter what. But it's maybe too soon to tell who's interested in going in next time. I'd rather focus on the Midterms, which is urgently needed right now. If Holder is planning on a 2020 run, we'll see him helping other candidates get elected this year. (Same with Kamala Harris and the others.)


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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:44 AM

10. Disagree

 

I strongly disagree with you, just because he is a white male doesn't make it entitlement. Biden is a kind person, at the same time, Biden is a guy that is not afraid to rumble with you if needed. Can you recall how he handled his debate with Paul Ryan, he completely took him to school, Ryan was so frustrated and Joe just kept smiling. Biden has eight years experience serving as VP to the greatest President of my lifetime, he has the chops and is battle tested. We (those opposed to the current fascist regime) should be uniting behind whichever candidate the party elects in order to save our country, we cannot have infighting, but instead should all unite to get Trump and his radical agenda of hate, racism and greed removed from the Oval Office. I'm not saying anyone is the front runner, but we should weigh and measure our perspective candidates to see who is the best option to achieve victory in 2020, it doesn't matter if they are male or female, what race, what sexual orientation, how far left, what nationality, all that matters is that they defeat Trump and we coalesce around our candidate to get the victory. It's going to be hard enough with all the games the GOP will play, but if were split with petty infighting they have already won.

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Response to Mojo2 (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:50 AM

20. I agree.

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Response to Mojo2 (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:52 AM

23. I appreciate your response, but with all due respect

your promptness in responding suggests that you didn't take much time to think about what I wrote.

I hope that, instead of reacting quickly, people will stop and reflect for awhile on what I'm saying. As progressive Democrats, we are much too quick to assume that we couldn't possibly have any biases or that we could actually learn from listening to and considering how another perspective or that, as individuals, we can actually do better than we're doing on race and gender.

Discussing race and gender and bias is not an attack or an accusation. We are all humans with prejudices and biases - most not even of our own making - and we can all do a little bit bit better. I'm simply asking folks here to take a closer look and consider whether some societal dynamics are influencing their thinking.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #23)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:55 AM

30. Wow. You are accusing everyone who disagrees with you of not reading/understanding the OP. Not ok.

Your assumption that people who would prefer Biden at this point in the race aren't "listening to and considering [...] another perspective" and aren't committed to the idea that we can "actually do better than we're doing on race and gender" is really messed up.

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Response to FreepFryer (Reply #30)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:01 AM

37. No, I'm saying if you respond to my lengthy and thoughtful post within 10 minutes

with an equally lengthy post, it's a strong indication that you didn't spend much time thinking about what I wrote before responding.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #37)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:23 AM

60. Lots of us think about similar things regularly or might have had this conversation before

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #60)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:36 AM

74. yup (n/t)

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #23)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:56 AM

32. Omg lol

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Response to Mojo2 (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:49 PM

215. A little thought exercise.

Taking your example, picture a black male unafraid to rumble with you if needed. The immediate criticism would be, "angry black man," rather than being seen as a sign of strength. Even if you don't react that way, he will be described that way and it will become part of the background ocean we all swim in, that impacts our perception of public figures often without us being conscious of it. Picture Clinton, who would be described as a B***h for the same posturing.

White men, because of their status as the norm, have a much larger toolbox to use without being described as outside of the norm. They can behave in ways that push the envelope because their behavior defines the envelope. Women and people of color generally can't. When they push the envelope, they are measured, instead, against narrowest norm and the stereotypes that represent how the differ from the norm. A lot of this is unconscious, but it is there.

And, as a consequence of the reaction when women and people of color act like white men are permitted to act, they learn to color within much narrower lines to avoid being perceived negatively, making their own toolbox even smaller.

So, while you may love Biden for being Biden, Biden is who he is - at least in part - because his white male status allows him to bumble around, stick his foot in his mouth, rumble when need be with no, or at least fewer, negative consequences than similarly situated women or people of color.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #215)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 03:25 PM

222. Wow! Beautifully stated!



Can anyone imagine a black candidate running for president in disheveled suits, unkempt hair, speaking loud and stridently - and being taken seriously?

No? Well, picture Cornel West on the campaign trail and consider how well he'd be received by the same people who think that Bernie Sanders*** is a breath of fresh air.

Your point about "coloring within the lines" is spot on perfect. Unlike white men, women and minorities have to consistently prove that they're NOT out of the mainstream and that they are part of and comfortable in the establishment. But when they do - as Hillary found - they are attacked precisely because they have finally clawed their way into the establishment.

Again, think of how well a female Bernie Sanders - a 70-something, curmudgeonly politician claiming to be an outsider, railing against "insiders," and "the status quo," on her second marriage with a child out of wedlock, no less - would have done. Hillary Clinton spent the first part of her career fighting back charges that she was too non-traditional (what with the wanting a legal career instead of staying at home baking cookies and that whole keeping her maiden name thing). Barack Obama had to be damned near - not even damned near, actually - perfect in every way and he STILL caught hell from every direction with GOP calling him everything but a child of God and Democrats accusing him of being to careful and cautious.

So glad you posted this - you nailed it!


*** Please don't start with any "Why are you attacking Bernie Sanders" posts - this is not a criticism of Sanders, just an illustration of the double standard and privilege that comes with being a white male. And I can't believe I even have to say this, but you know I do ...

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:46 AM

12. Old white guy here

I say no to Biden.

Yes to Kamala
Yes to Elizabeth
Yes to Oprah

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #12)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:50 AM

18. I say none that you mentioned are electable in 20.

Electability is key to 20. I worked with Biden during the 12 election...he is a very good campaigner and very personable...I think a younger candidate would be better really...but Joe will do if goes that way.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #18)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:57 AM

33. Donald Trump wasn't electable in 2014; Barack Obama wasn't electable in 2006

Until they ran for the presidency and won.

That's why we have campaigns

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #33)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:06 AM

42. I don't think Donald Trump was elected...election stolen...but he was an outsider...two of your

candidates are within the system and I do not want a celebrity nominee no matter how much I like them personally.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #33)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 07:15 PM

245. It is now becoming evident that Trump directly or indirectly had hidden help.

But, beyond that, Trump and Sanders caught lightening in a bottle with appeal to the beaten down voter who had been constantly ignored or taken for granted (fantasy, but that was the narrative). Income inequality is a tough nut, there is part purposeful tilting of the field (republican tax cuts), and there is the fact that the nature of work has changed since the advent of more and more powerful machines that are doing jobs once held by human beings.

Trump won't be able to wink and promise in 2020, he will have a real record that will be measurable.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #12)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:55 PM

143. Middle-aged white guy here

I think the issue of Biden's age will be a factor once the engines start running for 2020. As another said in this thread, I believe his time has past. I like Warren and I like Gillebrand (my state's junior ) even better. Don't know if they'd be the best candidates to run against this Trump, however

That being said, once primaries are over I'm going ALL yellow-dog on this Trump's ass.

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Response to Cartoonist (Reply #12)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 03:07 PM

219. No way on Oprah

She pushed all kinds of psuedoscientific woo on her show/magazine/channel along with her helping give a platform to asshole quacks like Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz.

And don't get me started on her rather bizarre need to give airtime to anti-vaxxers.

Winning in '20 is important but so is integrity. Unlike some on here I choose not to be like the Republicans and abandon my values just to make sure a person from my party is elected.

Other than that, I agree YES to Kamala Harris and Elizabeth Warren.

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Response to Jake Stern (Reply #219)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 08:34 PM

250. Oprah only over Trump

I didn't mean Oprah as my third pick. I just don't want Joe.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:47 AM

13. It smacks of predictability

What was it called when HRC was the frontrunner in 2007 and 2017?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:48 AM

14. I love Joe Biden and don't agree...I am a woman. If Joe Biden is shown to strong in the primaries,

we should all vote for him so we have a clear winner as soon as possible not like in 16.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #14)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:09 AM

46. I agree totally - operative word: "primaries"

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #46)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:03 PM

155. And I certainly hope

if Bernie intends to run in the Dem Primaries, he joins the Dem Party sooner rather than later. It drives me crazy that folks that support him, don't understand what a mess he caused.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #14)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:14 AM

51. You have now made multiple comments.

 

That really only make sense if it is assumed a certain person will be entering the primaries.

Since you always make sense I assume you are seeing what I have been. Your comments seem to support the idea that there is one person out there who currently has a distinct advantage to not only win, but to also damage the party and our chances. I'm not talking Biden.

Yes, I just made a number of assumptions that might be highly inaccurate.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:48 AM

15. I don't think Biden has the same "presumptive lock" on the nomination as Clinton had.

He may have a slight edge, but there is credible competition, as you listed.

Biden's "spontaneity" gets him some points, and costs him some points. A double-edged sword, unlike Trump (whose spontaneity delights his base) or Clinton (whose occasional spontaneity only seemed to hurt her).

An early frontrunner's advantage would be more significant if the big states voted early. If CA, FL, NY voted first, then President Clinton would have finished her second term in Jan 2017.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:49 AM

17. He's the antithesis of dt, and perhaps

that's why he's viewed so favorably. AND he seems to be garnering a lot of attention.
It's so early, this too shall change, no doubt.


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Response to babylonsister (Reply #17)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:06 AM

43. Biden's the anti-Trump, yes. AND, he has that "non-PC" off-the-cuff style that Trump voters love.

Yes, sometimes Joe says shit that makes some of us cringe, but the truth is, most people don't care about that very much.

Biden has authenticity, something that is relatable to pretty much everybody

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Response to flibbitygiblets (Reply #43)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:21 AM

58. "Authenticity" in my opinion is a BS attribute

He's no more authentic than Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama or Eric Holder or Elizabeth Warren

The difference is that when his "authenticity" puts his foot in his mouth, his white guy privilege means it's not held against him.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #58)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:08 PM

102. TRUTH, right here.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #58)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:06 PM

203. I would suggest that over his career, it HAS been used against him

Probably most obviously, the almost universally assumed idea that Clinton, not VP Biden would be the true heir to the Obama administration. Much of that came hand in hand with the idea that "he made too many gaffes" ect. This was a stereotype, fed well by things he said, that detracted from the accomplished VP, with decades of experience running important committees, contributing to foreign and domestic policy goals.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #203)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:31 PM

212. You make my point

His "gaffes" were seen as "detracting" from his years of experience.

Hillary's years of experience were seen, in and of themselves, as the problem. The same goes for Pelosi and Feinstein.

The difference between "Sure, he may be flawed, but he has such great experience and is so well prepared" and "Sure, she has great experience and is well prepared, but she has so flawed" and "He's been around a long time so he has the knowledge and experience to get things done and this is too important to take a chance on someone who hasn't been around very long" and "She may know how to get things done, but she's just been around too long, so we need to take a chance on some new, fresh faces."

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #212)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:50 PM

217. Hillary's accomplishments and her experiences were not seen as a problem

The point on Biden's gaffes, is that the misstatements of Obama, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, etc (anyone speaking 12 hours a day campaigning makes them) were NEVER included in people's stereotypes of them. Hillary, in fact, was characterized as very articulate, very knowledgeable, a policy wonk and very intelligent. Note she is that ... as is Biden.

Her experience and accomplishments were why she was supported by as much as 73% of Democrats polled in 2014 as their choice to be the nominee. There was NO call for a younger nominee in 2016. O'Malley, the only one who met that description, was a complete-non starter. I have heard FAR more people giving as there number one reason why they do not want Biden is that he is too old. Making the rant you posted completely not true.

The criticism of her was over specific baggage she had -- that were increased from her 2008 baggage because of her handling of her email, including how she responded to it becoming an issue. This is on a par with what I said of Biden having baggage and listing some of it. Anyone with a history in politics will have some things that need explanation and are baggage.

It has also been said that the real reason was that the country was for change -- and Clinton was seen as the continuation of the status quo. Had Biden been the nominee and lost, that same reason would have been given.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #217)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 03:29 PM

223. If you believe that her experience was not an impediment for some, you just weren't paying attention

And it's not limited to just Hillary - it is also the excuse given by many for trying to push Feinstein and Pelosi out of the way.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #223)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 05:23 PM

235. Her experience or things she did or was to thought to have done?

No one doubted that she was accomplished -- and that is a good thing. What was true is that some people disagreed with things she had done. In primary, many Democrats did not like the position she took in her book on the SoS years that she would have been more aggressive than Obama. This was her right to write, but it was the right of many here to be disheartened by that. Many here disagreed on the positive things she said about TPP before changing her policy -- I prefered her policy before she changed it. Many here were not happy with the way she handled the email question. In the general election, any differences many of us had with her disappeared into insignificance because she was SO MUCH better than Donald Trump.

Any nominee will be challenged by people on many things in both the primaries and the general election. Any discussion on her accomplishments and experiences was valid -- just as it was when Gore, Kerry, Obama etc ran and were questioned. It was not sexist. In the general election there were many unfair attacks on Clinton by the right -- however, they lied about John Kerry every bit as much. It is not their gender, it is that they were the Democratic nominee.

There is plenty of sexism in the world, but not everything comes down to gender.

PS I paid as much attention as you have to politics for probably a lot longer. It is poor debating tactic and not very polite to claim that any of us who do not see the world exactly as you do are "not paying attention".

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #223)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 06:53 PM

242. One thing that skews the discussion is just how damned good Pres Obama was

he could take positions, even make gaffes, that would have really hurt someone without his charisma. I mean it's sad to say, but that ineffable thing of charisma is kind of like being tall in the NBA or big and strong playing football. You only have one candidate a generation come along like that. And his message was simple and consistent, as was Trump's. Very simple - 'hope and change' and consistent. Trump's 'MAGA' worked; you could put it on a T-shirt or even a hat.

Hillary was/is a policy wonk, with immense credibility and deep knowledge, but - and this ties in to what we need in '20 - never seemed to ENJOY the rumble of a political campaign; she eviscerated Trump in the debates on every single point, every time. I kind of fear that Holder might fall into that category - bright as hell but can he keep it *simple* and catchy? Lots of very smart people have lost throughout history.

A candidate just simply can't count on the support Obama had even with the exact same positions and experience; sad to say marketing is a big part of the game


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Response to flibbitygiblets (Reply #43)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:08 PM

101. .

Yes, sometimes Joe says shit that makes some of us cringe, but the truth is, most people don't care about that very much.


Oh, plenty of people care. They just aren't heard, for a variety of reasons.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #17)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:10 AM

48. So are the other Democratic possibilities

Actually even more so since they are not white men - can't get any more antithesis than that ...

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:50 AM

19. I cant imagine a situation where I would vote for Biden in a primary.

 

I do not get the thought that we need to lurch that far to the right on a national level. Clinton had the most advanced policies on economic equality last time around. I do not want to give in on any of that and Biden has a history of being an economic conservative.

I would love for Biden to enter the primary. He is overall a solid voice for us. I just donít see a field forming where I would feel forced to vote for him.

Your comparisons are spot on but itís not even close to being able to make a blanket statement.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:51 AM

21. I'm thinking he could have won where Hillary didn't

Simply because the voters are still full of male entitlement. The number of voters who cannot deal with a female president is still significant and includes a lot of women, unfortunately.

White male entitlement put Dotard in office. He being a white male in his 70s makes me think at least Biden can be on the same plane and not lose due to misogyny.

And for me, this is very unfortunate. I don't like it. But I wonder if Harris wouldn't reap the disadvantage of being female too. Being of color too, though not as much. Holder would have a better chance. Just the voters of today and the fact this system is so undemocratic, that the white rural voters have more power than the rest of us, means, IMHO, that we need an old white man to run against the Dotard. As to which old uncle is better, possibly Biden could beat out the Dotard, being a more pleasant man.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:53 AM

24. Yeah! Who would imagine that a former incumbent VP would be considered a front-runner for President?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #24)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:59 AM

35. inorite? (n/t)

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #24)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:00 AM

36. Thank you!

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #24)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:43 PM

131. LOL

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:53 AM

25. I wonder if anyone will call Biden shrill

or photoshop feces onto the seat of his pants. #stillpissed

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Response to Codeine (Reply #25)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:37 AM

77. Or make a big deal of him taking a bathroom break

...or criticize his suits.

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Response to pandr32 (Reply #77)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:58 PM

147. He DOES need to smile more

But not too much.

And what's up with his hair?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #147)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:06 PM

202. His bronzer make-up is too heavy

Maybe he is trying to conceal poor health. Does he have the stamina to face tough situations?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:59 AM

34. I love Uncle Joe. BUT...

Last edited Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:27 PM - Edit history (1)

...certain factors that may become campaign issues worry me.

To see what I mean, go to YouTube and run a search on "Creepy Joe Biden." You'll see several clips of him getting far too touchy-feely with women to be considered appropriate in this age of "Me Too." And to be honest, he does look pretty creepy in them.

And while he's long been a champion of laws for women's rights and against domestic violence, he also has against him his treatment of Anita Hill at the Clarence Thomas hearings and his rather old school response to 45's harassment charges, i.e., taking him behind the gym to beat him up. (Excuse me, in this day and age, women don't need a 75-year-old man to defend their honor with a fist fight.)

Added to that are his rep as a gaff factory and his advanced age.

No doubt Biden has much to contribute to his country and his party, but I really think we should go with someone younger as a POTUS candidate.

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Response to JaneQPublic (Reply #34)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:49 PM

137. All your factors would be disastrous against any other Republican.

However, Dennison exponentially trumps Biden in mysogynistic creepiness, gaffes and lies. Bidenís plagerism of Neil Kinnockís bio seems quaint in retrospective comparison.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_lesson/2008/08/the_write_stuff.html

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:02 AM

38. Perhaps white... but not male

Not white either really... just no evidence against it since both are white.

But the exact same types of things were said about Hillary four years ago. In fact, she wasn't just the "frontrunner"... she was the "unquestioned and unchallenged frontrunner"

The real reason why Biden shouldn't be pumped as the frontrunner at this point has nothing to do with race, gender, or any form of privilege... it's that we should have learned our lesson over the last few cycles to stop trying to clear the Democratic field too early in the process. Let the Democratic party select their candidate through a democratic process with several voices being heard in an open contest.

And for the record... I can think of quite a few alternatives before I would even pull the lever for Biden (or, frankly, Clinton again).

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #38)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:13 AM

50. And she and her supporters were attacked endlessly for her frontrunner status

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #50)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:19 AM

55. Yep... Likely for the same reason that you're attacking his reported frontrunner status

because he isn't the one that you want to win the nomination.

I doubt seriously that you do so because you don't want a white male as president (regardless of political positions)... or wouldn't support him if he won the nomination... it's because you have someone else in mind (or perhaps multiple someone's) and don't want his presumed frontrunner status to keep them out of the race entirely.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #55)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:32 AM

69. You're making some pretty obnoxious assumptions about me

I've been voting in presidential primaries and general elections for 30+ years and every time but two I have voted for a white man. How many times have you voted for a woman or a minority for president?

Here's a clue, boo - wanting to make sure that we have a diverse pool from which to choose is not the same as not wanting a white man as president.

It's disappointing that I have to even say that to a fellow progressive. I usually have to explain that to right wingers, who don't seem to understand or can't accept that expanding opportunity actually improves the quality of our choices and that giving other people opportunities that white men have always had doesn't take away white men's rights - unless they believe that white men can only win if they don't have to compete with women and minorities.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #69)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:34 AM

72. I'd say at this point that you're the only one really being obnoxious in this thread

Particularly with the accusations that people didn't spend enough time reading or thinking before replying.

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #72)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:37 AM

78. +1. (n/t)

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #69)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:43 AM

80. My reply was carefully tailored to get this very response from you.

How ironic that it comes from an OP telling the rest of us on a progressive site that our privilege is getting in the way? I recommend re-reading your OP and wash-rinse-repeat until you "get it".

Even in this most recent reply you have no trouble forming assumptions about the motivation of anyone who disagrees with you. You feel a need to lecture me that we need a "diverse pool" (in reply to a post where I called for a large group of candidates and for NOT anointing a "frontrunner" and clearing the field so early).

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #80)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:47 AM

86. Whatever

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #50)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 03:54 PM

226. That was because her supporters acted like she was OWED the nomination and...

They were OWED a female President.

And just how many ran against HRC and won a primary or caucus? ONE...Sanders. So tell me about diversity in the nominating process.

I have always believed that a great deal of the opposition to Sanders was his temerity to run against Clinton. "How dare Sanders run against the anointed one!"I was somewhat disgusted by the whole primary process. I felt like "Why doesn't the DNC quit this pretend process and just CROWN her?"

However, I did vote straight Democratic ticket in the national election. And yes, she would have made a great President.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:08 AM

44. I take your point

Though I still like Joe Biden, a lot - just as I did ( and still do) like Hillary.

Itís clearly unfair that she was knocked for all those reasons of experience , longevity, etc. Though itís also not surprising that after seeing Trump in action people are hungry for those very things to return to the Presidency. Itís also a cruelty that Hillary wonít ever get the credit for getting the women firmly on-side for us Democrats. I think that the visceral response to Trump has now taken the narrative to a place where his awfulness gets credit for increased activism.

If Joe runs I would love to see a VP pick like Harris at least. Not just because I think we need to lean on women and POC as our base , but because she strikes a good balance of fresh and fearless leadership and always seems ready to defend our positions with a clear voice.

My brother asked the other day if Biden and Obama could just flip the ticket and run that way.. I honestly donít know if thatís possible but I would certainly feel comfortable with it. Iím sure the RWNJ would scream dictator though - but thatís probably true no matter what we do now.


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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:08 AM

45. Joe Biden has a charisma

that most candidates lack. He really communicates well with people on the stump, people from all backgrounds, probably due to his utter authenticity.

That said, I suppose if Hillary did or said some of the things Joe has, she would be pulverized by the press. Women are usually judged by different guidelines than men, frequently unconsciously. I think Hillary is every bit as qualified to be president as Joe, though in a campaign, Joe would be more persuasive. Unfortunately during an election, voters often are looking for a star more than a president, so highly qualified people can be overlooked.

Right now, I think we have an abundance of potential candidates to choose from for 2020, the best I've seen in years. Quite unlike the usual clown parade we see on the right.



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Response to PatSeg (Reply #45)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:15 AM

52. How much do you know about the others' "charisma" if they're not yet in the ring?

And charisma alone isn't enough - Trump is charismatic, too. A little of that goes a long way.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #52)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:24 AM

63. It's not like they're unknowns, especially to people at DU that talk about them daily

Harris got a lot of attention recently as did Gillibrand. Everyone knows Bernie and Joe. Booker has gotten a lot of attention over the years with speeches and the like.

NONE of them are unknowns to the likes of those that frequent DU. Outside of here to the man on the street? Sure. But slinging that accusation hereabouts is misguided.

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #63)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:35 PM

126. Many presidential candidates

were often unknown by most of the country when they entered the race for president - Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, even Barack Obama. They introduced themselves to the voters during their campaigns. I suppose being an unknown can be an advantage, as people don't have preconceived attitudes towards them. They don't bring a lot of baggage to the process.

I have seen so many sharp and competent Democrats on TV this past year, I think we have a really interesting primary to look forward to in 2019.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #126)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:39 PM

129. Exactly

It's how we ended up with Obama making such a strong series of moves as he introduced himself without all the baggage (though the right created plenty of baggage for him).

There's advantages and disadvantages to both unknown and known. The primary period is the crucible in which candidates show what they can handle in tough and ongoing situations. The unknowns have to face off against well-known challengers that have a lot of connections. Those that can do it, again with an Obama reference, tend to be strong candidates. If they can't, then it shows the known candidate masters things well on the larger stage.

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #129)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:06 PM

160. Yes

Actually it was funny watching the right try to find scandal on Obama. The man was pretty squeaky clean. He barely even had a voting record. John McCain on the other hand had a ton of history. And Mitt Romney was hated by most of the republican party, he was really over exposed by 2012. Being well known in a presidential race can really be a liability.

I agree that a primary race can really test a person and show how strong and resilient they are.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #160)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:07 PM

162. Which is why I want a mixed field

I don't want a 20+ person field because some quality stuff gets lost, as we've seen in past primary seasons.

But seasoned, mid-range, and upstarts mixed in? Gimme gimme gimme. They'll all push each other in new directions that they need in order to form the right coalitions to win in the general.

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #162)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:28 PM

185. That's a good point

I think Bernie helped push Hillary a bit more to the left. I would have liked a bigger selection though, not like the republican circus, but more variety and viewpoints. It is a shame that Joe didn't run. It would have been far more interesting and challenging.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #126)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:47 PM

134. Bill Clinton was seen as little more than a joke before well into the '92 race

Until the early primaries, he was known as the Southern governor whose 1988 convention speech was a disaster. There was little talk of his "charisma." Only when the primaries really got going did people start to see his strengths.

It's way too early to discount anyone for a "lack of charisma" before they've even gotten out there.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #134)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:12 PM

166. Like I basically said

I wouldn't discount anyone for a lack of charisma, but I know there are people who will. And if the candidate is a woman, there are pundits and voters who will judge her on her hair, clothes, weight, voice, body language etc. If she's not assertive, then she's not strong enough to be president and if she is assertive, then she is too angry, possibly even shrill.

A lot of voters respond unconsciously to traits and appearances, which makes it that much harder for a minority or a woman in a national race.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #166)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:15 PM

170. So we just shouldn't run a minority or woman because some people are bigots?

Sorry, not good enough.

Bigoted voters aren't are target demographic anyway. Let them stay with Trump. We have more than enough open-minded, decent voters (including women and minorities) to make up for anyone who won't vote for a woman because they don't like her hair.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #170)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:34 PM

189. Of course not

And that is not what I said. There certainly are obstacles for a minority or woman candidate, but that doesn't mean that I think we shouldn't run them. I am hopeful that on the next ticket, we will have both a minority and a woman. I am just observing the issues that they will face and have to overcome. Being unaware of the problems we may face, could be a liability.

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Response to PatSeg (Reply #189)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:35 PM

191. I agree with that

But every candidate, including Biden, will bring problems with them - we need to understand and deal with them, whatever they are.

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #63)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:05 PM

159. Knowing about a politician and knowing whether they have charisma on the presidential campaign trail

are two very different things.

Just as making an observation and "slinging accusations hereabouts" are also two very different and distinct things.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #52)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:29 PM

122. I personally don't care as much about the charisma

as many do. I'm looking more for presidential qualifications, but unfortunately, many people are affected by the star power of presidential candidates. I found Hillary to be one of the most qualified presidential candidates that I've seen, though she wasn't always terribly dynamic on the stump. The same with Al Gore.

There certainly are people who are great campaigners, but that doesn't mean they will be great or even competent presidents. We live in a media obsessed country and we often choose presidents for all the wrong reasons. Angela Merkel is one of the most impressive leaders in the world, elected four times, but I wonder if she would survive our electoral process.

So I would say, we don't have a shortage of highly qualified people to run for president, we have voters who are often impressed or critical of the wrong traits.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:11 AM

49. Winning is all that matters.

I really donít care if itís an old white man or a young transgender black woman. Iím not willing to throw away the best chance to win because it isnít diverse enough.

Take the best shot you have. Itís too important.

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #49)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:23 AM

61. I agree - but we don't yet know who the best shot will be

However, Biden's white man privilege is leading many to assume that he is for reasons they would never give minorities and women similar credit.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:16 AM

53. He was Vice President for eight years

That kind of makes him the frin5 runner

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:21 AM

57. This shit wears me out.

 

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Response to EricMaundry (Reply #57)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:26 AM

65. You're not the only one.

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Response to EricMaundry (Reply #57)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:36 AM

76. It wears me out, too

As Jon Stewart said, "If you think you're tired of hearing about racism, imagine what it's like having to live with it."

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #76)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 09:58 PM

258. Right. Joe Biden is a racist.

 

Brill.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:22 AM

59. We'll probably have 101 candidates running against Trump

Who decides who is a front runner anyway? It's a bit early for that when most of the likely candidates haven't filed yet.

Let's win a big blue wave in 2018 first. This is a tremendous opportunity to elect lots more minorities and women and liberals everywhere.

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #59)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:29 AM

67. All of this angst is based on a poll that was predictable from the get go

It's all just name recognition at this point combined with Trump's flat polling at 40%.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:24 AM

62. Actually, I worry that it is too similar to how Clinton was treated.

Hillary was the presumed nominee years before she even ran. Those who ran against her in the primary were up against a truly rigid outlook, from the media and from the DNC, that said she is the one and nobody else is worthy of so much as a mention. This is what led to the 'coronation' talk, and it was warranted.

I would really like to see a group of candidates come into the race on an even par in 2020. Of course there will be differences in name recognition and previous impressions, but nobody should be labeled as the presumptive nominee before a single vote is cast.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:25 AM

64. i love Joe Biden

but I want a younger candidate. I like Kamala Harris, she's very smart and ticks a lot of boxes demographically speaking. but you are right that this is premature.

i want to have elections like the UK. 6 weeks of campaigning, vote, then do the lawmaker thing until the next 6 week period rolls around. constant campaigns wear the shit out of me

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:27 AM

66. I don't think we can really call this male (or white) entitlement

Biden is in the position of having been a popular vice president with good name recognition among the base. It is still early. It is far to early to be making claims like this. Wait and let's see how it plays out. The wheel is definitely still in spin.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #66)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:44 AM

82. I don't think it's frontrunner status by itself is evidence of the entitlement

Given, as you note, his service as VP wold surely put him in the top tier.

My greater concern is the other reasons being offered separate from being a former VP - his many years in the Senate, his political acumen, his "spontaneity," his age and wisdom - all things that are viewed as making a 72-year-old white man even more qualified to be president but are seen as negative characteristics and even disqualifiers for female candidates.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #82)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:34 PM

213. Perhaps but there is no need to take it out on Biden

We need to change the culture, not disqualify candidates.

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Response to jimlup (Reply #213)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 03:12 PM

220. Oh, Good Lord. I'm not taking out anything on Biden. Nor have I suggested that he be "disqualified."

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:33 AM

70. Some will never even attempt to understand this.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:33 AM

71. I like Biden, but I ain't voting for him in a primary. nt

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:44 AM

83. I thought Oprah was the front runner

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:47 AM

84. Am I awful

When I say I worry about his age? I so loved the active, healthy Bill Clinton and Barak Obama presidencies. Heís has health scares and I fear another Reagan downslide from an elderly president.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:47 AM

85. Get off of it. If I said that I hadn't even considered race than I'm a racist, right? If I said

 

'Joe's too old' then I'm a gerontophobe, right?

Kamala Harris ( I voted for her for Senate) & Gillibrand have NOW LOST MY VOTE since they called for Franken to resign for non-workplace 'fooling around'.. maybe.

I see you made no mention of Al Franken as a candidate or that Harris and Gillibrand acted as prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner.





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Response to vkkv (Reply #85)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:54 AM

92. Oh, please - spare me the "You mentioned race. Stop calling me a RACIST!" response

Asking people to think about white privilege is nothing an accusation that you are racist - I even explicitly said so in my post because I know how sensitive and defensive some people get at the mere mention that a progressive white person might be susceptible to bias.

But if you have no biases and your political thinking is never ever affected in any way by any racial or gender biases whatsoever (which would probably make you not human, but that's another discussion) then my OP doesn't apply to you. So why are you so defensive? It seems to me that it would be much easier for you to just ignore it and focus on something else that doesn't apply to you but still strikes a rather sensitive nerve.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #92)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:59 AM

95. No response to the Harris Gillibrand poor judgement on Franken? Is that leadership points for them?

 


And what about Franken as a candidate ??

So when you wrote this in your OP it had NOTHING to with race ?

""" And often they get spotted extra points for just being the white guy (couched in other, more innocuous gems like, "he's so competent!" and my favorite "he just a regular guy." """"


Nope, not framed on any racism at all - Get off of it!

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Response to vkkv (Reply #85)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:13 PM

109. If I only blame women for taking down an old white man, I'm a sexist right?

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #109)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:18 PM

114. Exactly, that too.. Harris Gillibrand screwed Al Franken. That was not a good demostration of

 

leadership on their part. I'm in Calif. I voted for Sen. Harris - and as AG., but I will not as POTUS.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:49 AM

87. I haven't seen much of this talk.

Maybe, I have those posters on ignore?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:49 AM

88. Well thought out, EffieBlack

It's discomfitting to some, but it is well-worth discussing.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:51 AM

89. Effie I agree with you on everything except your last paragraph.

I find it perplexing that you refer to white Democrat opinions being born out of white Privilege.
I don't know what this " privilege" is. We are Democrats because we want all people to
have the same rights. One persons lack of a right is not another persons privilege.
Maybe it's just semantics.
I apologize for any accusations I might have made against you.

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Response to njhoneybadger (Reply #89)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:39 PM

128. I actually edited the OP earlier to take out that reference to "white" Democrats

Because it's not only white Democrats who are influenced by what I see as a frame based on bias.

Also, I don't assume that the views of white Democrats are necessarily born out of white privilege. My point is that white privilege often frames the presentation of the "facts" that shape those opinion and it often provide the cover and comfort to not see the bias.

For example, I don't think that every white person who thinks that Biden's experience makes him a better candidate for president since I don't think all white people make every decision based on their privilege. I do, however, believe that the frame they've been presented externally is shaped by a narrative that is based on biases and privilege. So when cable tv commentators push Biden as the frontrunner, telling us how wonderful he is, how he has so many great attributes that have earned him a place at the very top of the pyramid - when they have used similar attributes to beat up on women candidates and they don't even consider the potential of minority candidates - that influences thinking, even among the most astute observers.

As for your question about white privilege in general, privilege is not the same as bias or racism. Not even close. Privilege is the advantage that being white or male confers on white folk and men that minorities just don't enjoy. That privilege/advantage is not asked for, it's not your fault, it doesn't mean you are a bad person or don't like black people or think women are inferior, or don't want everyone to have the same rights.

Privilege is the fact that you are more likely than I am to be able to get a cab on on any city street in American. Privilege is not having to hold your breath every time you hear about a shooting or bombing, praying that the perpetrator isn't someone who looks like you since white people don't have to live with collective guilt. Privilege is going through your work day not having to read every word, every gesture and make instantaneous decisions about what they mean and how to respond or not respond - and then be criticized or end up kicking yourself because you may have made the wrong choice

I'll give you an example. Remember during the debates when Trump stalked Hillary around the stage? In her book, she talked about how she ran through all of the possible responses - she could either ignore him, stay focused on what she was saying or she could turn around and tell him, "back off, you creep!" In the end, she decided to ignore him. And then she was criticized mercilessly as weak for not confronting him. But, of course, had she done that, she would have been criticized for letting him get to her, allowing herself to be pulled off focus, overreacting, etc.

When I read this in her book, I actually started to cry because I knew she was feeling exactly what I and many women and minorities go through every day of our lives - only she had to do it on national television and had so much riding on it. When confronted with various micro-aggressions that come up constantly in meetings, in conversations, in other interactions, we are constantly having to read everything in the room, weigh the situation, consider our options and the ramifications ("If I say something and push back, will I be seen as over-reacting, race-baiting, playing the gender-card? But if don't say anything is it going to keep happening, am I allowing myself to be abused, and will I be a sellout and make it harder for everyone else in my position" - all while continuing to think and talk and keep our wits about us.

Hillary had to stand on a national stage while her ignorant thug of an opponent - an unqualified, boorish ass who should never have ever been allowed anywhere near her orbit - lurked behind her in a threatening way and not only speak intelligently and coherently and calmly, but also run through a series of calculations and predictions, knowing that whatever she did would be criticized and run the possibility of letting down millions of other women. In her book, she said that she probably should have said something - in other words, a year later, she was still second-guessing herself. Something white men rarely, if ever have to do.

This, on a smaller, less visible scale, is what women and minorities have to do every day. Most men and most whites never have to do this - at least not on such a consistent basis that it just becomes like the extra job we have to go to every day while doing our regular job. And when we DO say something, WE are accused of playing the gender card or "making it all about race." And, of course, of being racist or sexist ourselves since somehow pointing out racism or sexism is seen by some as racism and sexism itself.

I hope this is helpful in clarifying my point.

And apology accepted.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #128)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:12 PM

204. Thank you your explanation is appreciated

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:51 AM

90. I would like to see Sharrod Brown and Barbara Lee on the ticket.

crazy, I know. .. but that would be dynamite. imho

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:53 AM

91. Yes, he should be a real gentleman like Al Gore was in Y2K.




And we all know where that got him don't we.




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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:59 AM

94. I'm really nervous

that, because of Hillary's failure to win the WH in 2016 and all of the angst over the "economic anxieties" of the WWC, Democrats will be averse to nominating any African-Americans and/or women (or African-American women like Kamala) in 2020. I mean, I'll vote for whoever the nominee is (a pet rock with a "D" behind it would be acceptable at this point) but I really want to see the Democratic Party continue to be the banner for diversity and inclusiveness and not retreat back to "playing it safe" by nominating old tired white guys. Diversity and inclusiveness among our state, local, and national candidates should be our future IMHO.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:01 PM

96. Is it sexist to attack him because he is male?

Is it racist to attack him because he is white?

Maybe he's a front runner because he was a very popular V.P. under a very popular Democratic President?

Maybe people like him because of what he says, and what he stands for.
Not for 'what' he is.

Why do some insist on attacking our own, when we need to unite against the GOP?

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Reply #96)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:05 PM

99. And the only reason some are listing him as a frontrunner is because of a name recognition poll

That's all it was. Nothing more. Those whose names are known more than others because of their length of service and how much media time they get top the list. But instead we get a thread like this about privilege.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Reply #96)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:10 PM

105. It's reverse sexism and reverse racism....

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:04 PM

98. don't you mean old, white male privilege?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:12 PM

107. No.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:13 PM

108. I like Joe Biden and would support his if he runs

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:16 PM

111. What it smacks of is a complete unwillingness

to consider new people, new ideas.

Joe Biden is a nice guy, but for one thing he's too old. As are too many who are clinging to office until they die from a fall or some such. Meanwhile, one important reason Republicans have done so well is that they've brought along younger politicians. Democrats need to do the same and look to the future, not to the past.

Some of those kids who've been in the forefront of the current struggle with the NRA will be absolutely amazing if they keep up this passion for another decade and start running for Congress as soon as they are old enough. Hopefully at least some of them will run for state and local governments very soon.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:18 PM

113. Its amazing all the politicians you call out

We shouldn't vote for this person. Or this person can't win. Or this this is racist or sexist. But as soon as someone points out the flaws of a candidate you like you call them a poor baby.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:20 PM

115. Do y'all realize how much the Joe Biden "frontrunner" talk smacks of white male entitlement?

Biased header, sewing discord as good as any Republican could do, toward what end?

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Response to bucolic_frolic (Reply #115)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:21 PM

117. To create unity!

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Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #117)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:56 PM

145. LOL!

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Response to bucolic_frolic (Reply #115)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:59 PM

149. Discussion about white male entitlement on a Democratic discussion board sews discord?

Why do you think that?

Because white male entitlement isn't a thing or it's a thing but we shouldn't talk about it?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:26 PM

119. My God, must EVERYTHING be about privilege and how Hillary was treated?

 

I like Biden a lot, and it's not because he's white, and it's not because he's male.

It's because (a) he can win, and (b) although I don't agree with all of his positions on issues, I agree with most of them. I believe Joe Biden has the interests of the people (of all genders, orientations, races, ages, etc) at heart. Incidentally, these are the reasons I also like Hillary Clinton and enthusiastically voted for her. FFS...

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Response to Still In Wisconsin (Reply #119)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:50 PM

138. You discuss what you want, I'll discuss what I want

If you don't like what I choose to discuss - even if you don't understand what I'm saying, as you clearly don't - you are certainly free to hit Ignore. Especially if you think that what I'm saying doesn't apply to you.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:26 PM

120. Yes.

Just to be clear, Joe Biden doesn't even twitch the needle on my interest-ometer as far as 2020 goes. The women on your alternative list DO get the needle moving, but they aren't swinging it into the green either...yet.

I'm a white woman, and I might be the only DUer courageous enough to admit, here at DU, that I've actually voted for a black woman for president before. A woman reviled right here at the time. That was some elections back, in the year identity politics shaped the ugly battle between race and gender in the primaries. I lost a great deal of respect for my party at that point, and have never gained it back.

And the politician at the top of my current list, who moves the needle all the way over to "full" in the green, is a black woman. I predict that there will be more haters than lovers right here when I mention her name, because she's NOT establishment, not white, and not male. As I'm sure you can figure out, there is only one white man in the country that I'd be fully supportive of, but I hope for others to step up. Until there are actual people who have declared their intention to run, and in case she does run:

Nina Turner for 2020.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #120)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:21 PM

179. Oh dang...

 




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Response to LWolf (Reply #120)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 04:35 PM

231. Just a quick read of her Wikipedia page.

She is very impressive.

Wouldn't that be something? A black woman as the first Female President. As they say here in Texas, "They (Trump voters) would shit their britches".

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #231)

Thu Mar 29, 2018, 03:25 PM

264. Listening to

her having extensive discussions on policy is even more impressive.

I think she'd be great for the country, and the racist fascist Trump voters would, as you say, "shit their britches."

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:28 PM

121. I don't think it is us

I don't think it is folks on DU creating the "front-runner" talk. I love Joe Biden, and I also love many of the other potential D candidates. That's what the primaries are about IMO.

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Response to get the red out (Reply #121)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:01 PM

153. I didn't say it was created here.

But a lot of the external framing influences our opinions.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:30 PM

123. Most people love Joe

that's it in a nutshell. As for me, I think he's too old to run and I hope he doesn't.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:31 PM

124. He was VP! He would have likely been the candidate had Hillary not run.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:40 PM

130. Theres a huge difference between frontrunner and presumptive nominee before the race even starts

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:47 PM

135. This white male has been touting Kamala for quite awhile.

She's pretty much the whole package: a former AG, a Senator; not a scintillating speaker but a coherent one. The party needs to start pulling behind someone now to avoid a bruising primary in my opinion.

I don't know if Biden could really be considered a 'frontrunner' except for having been VP; he does seem to be having a good time baiting Trump; I think Kamala is the best bet and a Senator from CA is a pretty good point to run from.

I really don't care about the race or gender of who replaces Trump any more than I would about that of a person who would save me from drowning, but your main point is right on and needs to be said again and again.

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Response to The Mouth (Reply #135)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:58 PM

197. Sen Harris at the top of the ticket and Adm. William McRaven for VP would be a HUGE

 

ticket, and would check almost every box.



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Response to Exotica (Reply #197)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 06:29 PM

236. Oh hell yeah

I do think she could be a more scintillating speaker, but that is something that an intelligent person can master and I'd bet she's working on it. IMHO her speeches read better in print than they sound, but actually that just might be a former AG thing, since judges seem to not appreciate dramatic speech and she was so much better qualified for Senator than her opponent it did not matter.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:48 PM

136. When you see Joe Biden to you see a white man or do you see a man?

 

I see a man. Who is a good Democrat, and would make a great president.

I don't think it is necessary to play the race card to judge Biden one way or the other.

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Response to ollie10 (Reply #136)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:55 PM

142. OK, I get it. You don't see race. But why do you see him as a man first and not just a person?

There you go playing the gender card. You must be a sexist.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #142)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:05 PM

158. Judging Biden in terms of his race or his sex is about as ridiculous as judging him by the color of

 

his underwear!

Don't you have less divisive things to ponder?

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Response to ollie10 (Reply #158)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:06 PM

161. Please explain to me how I "judged Biden in terms of his race or sex?"

And please be specific.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #161)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:14 PM

169. Your topic was whether Biden is the beneficiary of white entitlement....

 

There are so many obvious reasons why he would be considered a front runner. Such as, being a VP. Such as his tireless campaigning for both Obama and Hillary. Such as his record in Congress. Such as how well he is trouncing Trump in the polls, better than others I won't care to mention. Such as his appeal to the middle class. But you focus on just one thing....whether it is white entitlement, ignoring the multiple reasons he would be a contender.

I suppose you will deny that? But it was you who made this a discussion of his whiteness.

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Response to ollie10 (Reply #169)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:26 PM

182. Pointing out that he's the beneficiary of white male entitlement is not a judgment on him

I'll explain it one more time.

He has many attributes that I think make him a good candidate, including his long service in government, his political experience, his age and wisdom. But it cannot be denied that, while many people, including me, see these qualities as attributes, many of those same people (not including me) see those very same qualities as negatives in Hillary Clinton and other women politicians. And while people insist that Clinton, Pelosi and Feinstein need to step aside to make room for younger, newer faces, the brown and female younger newer faces who are being floated are being dismissed because they don't have the years of experience, age and wisdom that Biden has.

I'm not judging Biden at all - I like him and, while he probably wouldn't be my first choice, I think he has every right to run and if he wins the nomination, I will bust my butt for him. This isn't about the value of Biden's qualifications at all - it's about why other people are judging his qualifications according to a different standard than they're applying to women and minorities.

But why do you think it's ok to identify Biden as a man but not as a white man?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #182)


Response to EffieBlack (Reply #182)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:16 PM

206. So you think he believes he is entitled because he is a white person?

 

I am sorry. You are the one who is talking about white entitlement, not Biden nor his supporters.

If Biden or his campaign says he is entitled because he is white, let's talk!

Bottom line....he won't.....and, in spite of many reasons to consider him a front runner that have nothing to do with white entitlement, you want to talk about whether it is white entitlement....a theory that has just as much credence as thinking the color of his underwear is the deciding factor;.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #161)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:03 PM

200. You automatically assume he's the current frontrunner

based on his white male privilege?

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Response to John Fante (Reply #200)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:18 PM

208. No - I'm pointing out that certain traits that are treated as excellent qualifications for him

Are treated differently when exhibited by women and minorities.

It's really not that complicated.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #208)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:52 PM

218. So in the past three presidential elections, we nominated a black twice and a woman once

 

It doesn't appear we have an overwhelming history of white male entitlement going on here.....

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Response to ollie10 (Reply #218)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 03:13 PM

221. Again you've missed the point altogether

Or maybe you just don't want to get it.

Whatever. Your view is your view and I'll just leave it at that.

Have a nice day.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #221)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 03:50 PM

225. You are entitled to your opinion too

 

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Response to ollie10 (Reply #136)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:55 PM

144. "play the race card " What does that mean? nt

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Response to ollie10 (Reply #136)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:00 PM

151. Me Neither

Why would anyone write something so divisive?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:54 PM

141. Do you realize

that many of us like Biden?

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Response to DownriverDem (Reply #141)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:02 PM

154. I like him, too. This isn't a criticism of him at all.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:57 PM

146. Midterms, people!

Love me some Joe, but the blue avalanche is a must and deserves our utmost concentration....imo!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:00 PM

150. Kick

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:00 PM

152. Joe would make a great president as would several others who have passed my bar of decent, honest pe

people. My "others" who would be great presidents include Hillary if she wants to run again. I doubt she runs again if other decent people like Biden say early they're in but maybe she will change her mind. Age is not an issue for me, age gives wisdom & experience to people like Hillary & Joe.

I don't agree with your 'view' of Biden or your view of Hillary. Neither of them toot their own horns enough, they've done so much good for millions of people.

QUOTE ""his experience (her experience made her too establishment), longevity (she'd been around too long), political acumen (her acumen meant she was calculating), toughness (she was harsh), spontaneity (WHY did she SAY that? NOT HELPFUL, Hillary!),""QUOTE

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #152)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:09 PM

163. My OP doesn't express my "view" of either of them

It expresses my view about the disparate way that they are being judged.



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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #163)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:12 PM

165. They're different people, yet both honest and true Ds. Love to see them as Pres & VP :)

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:04 PM

157. No to Deval... he wasnt even a good governor.

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #157)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:10 PM

164. Unremarkable sums him up best

I don't think he can handle the national spotlight and to my knowledge, he's been largely quiet since he left the governorship. It hasn't sounded like he's been building the infrastructure needed to run.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:12 PM

167. I love Joe, but I agree....

 

....I feel like it's just another example of us trying to play by the Republican rules/game. "Oh hey, a good counter to a no filter old white dude like Trump is OUR OWN no filter old white dude!" Granted Joe is great and would be a million years better than Trump.

But it just smacks to me of the same thing we tried to do with Kerry. "Oh if we elect a vet/war hero they could NEVER accuse us of being soft on the military!!!" Yeah. How'd that work out for us?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:13 PM

168. I like your approach to this. We definitely

should not be proclaiming a front-runner, especially at this point no matter what polls say.

Perhaps 2016 would have played out differently had we, as a whole, not done this exact thing in 2014-2015. Hillary may even have been occupying the WH right now. Her "coronation" certainly played against her/us in the end.

So, yeah, let's damn well avoid the same thing in 2020!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:16 PM

171. I think most of the people who frequent this website are attuned to "privilege"

not that its a bad idea to always keep it in mind. That said I think that the respect Biden has earned throughout his career is as much or more the reason he is mentioned among potential frontrunners. Just my opinion though. It's also early to say who are frontrunners so I'm keeping my head clear about biases and focusing my energies on those who will emerge as the best candidate to take our White House back from the squatter. My hope is that we will find that right candidate and all be ready to pull in the same direction when we do.

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Response to ooky (Reply #171)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:34 PM

190. Judging by the reactions on this thread, they're not attuned to it at all

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #190)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:49 PM

216. Recognizing that privilege is a thing is a core value on the left

as opposed to right wing thinking. That's the reason I believe most of the DU community would be attuned to the issues of privilege, of any kind. Most of the responses I read from people that don't share your stated view were for a variety of reasons given, but I didn't sense that they aren't sensitive to the issue of white male privilege itself. Not saying I might not have missed a few, I didn't read every response.

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Response to ooky (Reply #216)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 03:31 PM

224. If you read the whole thread, you will see a breathtaking degree of ignorance about what

white privilege actually is - along with an insistence that pointing out white privilege = racism - or a refusal to accept that it exists.

I have to keep stopping and checking to make sure I'm still on DEMOCRATIC Underground.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:16 PM

172. Thumbs DOWN

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:18 PM

174. You clearly seem to have a beef against VP Biden for whatever reason. nt

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:20 PM

175. Joe' she Treatment of Anita Hill Precludes Any Nomination

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:20 PM

176. Let's come together, welcome anyone who wants to run, see where each stands on issues

vote in the primaries, then rally around our winner. Let's not huddle in individual groups/categories. How about....all for one and one for all?

~Peace and Unity~

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:20 PM

177. Baloney

 

Heís one of numerous candidates whoíve been DUís flavor of the week. Next week it will be someone else and after that another person. And then probably him again. Thatís the way it goes.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:21 PM

178. Does this have anything to do with Joe saying that HE would have beaten Trump in 2016?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:22 PM

180. Not necessarily a Biden guy here, but he was VP. That puts you near the front by default. nt

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Response to Lucky Luciano (Reply #180)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:30 PM

187. Agree - but that's not the reason that's usually given

Instead, we hear about his long experience in government, his age and wisdom, etc. - traits that are used as disqualifiers for women politicians who are being told they've been around too long and need to move on in order to make room for new, fresh faces.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:24 PM

181. This isn't Yahtzee. Let the voters decide.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:27 PM

184. Being called a front runner this early is usually a kiss of death

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:30 PM

186. He's a former Vice President to a very successful administration that is viewed very positively...

...by Americans.

It's not Walter Mondale we're talking about.

Look, Democrats are scared. 2016 shook the party. We've seen the damage Trump has done in just a year and a couple months ... imagine the damage he could do in two-terms? Democrats, more than anything, want to win and people see Biden as the guy who has a good chance of going head-to-head with Trump and actually winning - and it's not necessarily because he's white, either. It's because, as I said, he was a popular VP to a very popular president, whose administration has only gained in popularity since he left office. Biden is seasoned, experienced and a name. It's only logical to push those candidates first (same with Al Gore in 2004 and 2008). IF another candidate rises, like Obama did in 2008, then so be it. But right now, Biden does appear to be our best hope based on polls and the fact he's tied to arguably the most popular Democratic administration since Kennedy.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:40 PM

193. You are right about a lot of things

But in particular, you're dead on to say (if I may paraphrase), "How can you have a front-runner when these's no one in the race?"

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:51 PM

194. Well Biden is not at all on the top of my list, and you're right, the things that were a negative

 


for Clinton, are absolutely a negative for me with Biden, and I have a long enough memory to be frustrated with the things Biden was saying constantly when W was starting up his second term and before that undercut a consolidated liberal resistance. Beyond that, Biden had the right approach when it came to being Obama's VP, stating that he never impugns motives of his colleagues on the other side of the aisle...that he always assumes they are honest actors dong their best...but we're way past that now, and it is that pretense that politics is simply a challenge of conflicting principles that is why it was Edwards who was my first choice at the time(even if I wasn't convinced he would deliver on his rhetoric). I think we should be done playing nice. I think we should be done pretending that the GOP leadership are anything but various industry delegates.

Which is why really only Warren on your list rises to a level that I'm particularly excited about, although Harris has impressed me in the past and has made a couple of moves that interest me, and Booker, as impressive a human being as he is, has mostly not impressed me when it comes to his politics but has also made some interesting moves as of late.

Yes, it is nearly impossible to not be picked apart as a female candidate, where men get a pass. Black candidates have an entirely different set of obstacles that require they don't scare white America into thinking they are going to do anything to repair the broken playing field, because somehow that sounds like reverse racism to people and equates in their fearful heads to uprising...to flipping the scales(which they know very well have been tipped all these years). Obama's charm and ability to disarm was what let him navigate a racist country and carry the GE. That said, I don't think the next GE candidate of color will have to be as warm, which is good, because I don't think that's what we need right now.

My guess is Biden is only getting all this love because he is most remembered for being a part of the Obama Presidency, and as Vice President has done relatively little(because this is what you do as Vice President), to make waves or to piss anybody off, nor in those 8 years was anything added to his personal record to point to. I agree that he would not suffer the same level of abuse that Clinton did should he run though - not that the GOP or the corporate media machine would lay off him(as if they laid off Kerry), but some things would have a harder time sticking because white men do often get a pass. I'm betting that while he polls high nationally, that he would not fair as well in a primary between a warren or sanders on the left in this climate, and a Booker and Harris as more compelling modern alternatives who seem less archaic. He was smart to stay out of the last fight, knowing that he would at best split the votes with Clinton, but would probably underperform her. Hopefully he's smart enough to stay out of this race too, because being "just a regular joe" is not going to cut it with us when we have far more interesting options.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:52 PM

195. Was it white female entitlement when for over 3 years, Hillary Clinton was called the frontrunner?

Biden is called the frontrunner because in one of the few polls done, he did better by a small amount compared to others. However, in a Suffolk/USA today poll that asked if you were "excited" that X were running, while he and Sanders did better than the others asked about, "someone new entirely new" was 22/23 points higher than they were. Elizabeth Warren and Patrick Deval were lower, but that reflects lower name recognition with more people saying "unsure". The few polls done do not show him in the hegemonic position Clinton was in in 2014.

I agree that most of the reasons he is pushed are the same as why Clinton was seen as the overwhelming favorite in any poll (2009 - 2015). Arguing that those were Clinton negatives - playing on the "a man is called "assertive, while a woman is called aggressive" narritive ignores that these were the positives that made Clinton poll as high as 70% - far far higher than Biden now. (I note you credit people saying of Biden that he is so competent --- I doubt there was anything said more for often for Clinton. That comment is not sexist - it was NEVER said of Trump. )

When the preprimaries really start -- after the midterms is the usual starting point in recent elections, you will see the following. If Biden is still seen as the front runner, expect articles on HIS baggage to come out. (Just as they did when he put his toe in the water in 2015.) I would argue that he starts out WAY BEHIND where HRC was in 2014. One reason is actually the 2016 race - where one thought is that it was a vote against the status quo -- and he was the VP. In addition, he is 75 years old. His baggage includes the awful job presiding over the Clarence Thomas hearings and being the lead sponsor on the Clinton era crime bill.

So, the initial articles considering him will likely be more negative than positive. On the other hand, the media loves NEW. Other relatively unknown candidates will be given a spot light by media that are positively impressed by them. The best case for the Democrats is that ONE of these people really catches fire and quickly becomes the frontrunner.

No one is "giving" Biden a head start. The head start is coming because people know his name, know he was VP and have positive feelings about the Obama years. However, with his extremely high name recognition, he is less likely to have the same jump in support as people learn more as the other currently less well known candidates will have. This may be his highest level of support.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #195)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:03 PM

199. You have missed my point altogether

There are several reasons that Biden is considered the frontrunner - as inappropriate as it is to be naming anyone as such at this point - but several of the reasons given are the same reasons that are used AGAINST women.

You can argue the point all you want, but you cannot plausibly deny that Hillary and other powerful female politicians have been and continue to be criticized for being "too establishment," too long in the tooth, around too long and told they should step aside to make room for younger, fresher faces - while Joe Biden, who is more establishment, more long in the tooth, and has been around for much longer than most of them, is being hailed by many as the Democratic savior whose age and experience make him the best and strongest candidate for 2020.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #199)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:20 PM

209. No one missed your - it doesn't jibe with reality, that's all.

Biden has never been criticized in his decades-long career? No one has accused him of being too establishment? Being too old? He's never taken heat for his foot-in-mouth disease? That's funny.

Who is hailing him as a Democratic savior btw? This is a strawman.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #199)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:21 PM

210. You missed my points and I did not miss your point, I DISAGREE WITH IT. Not the same thing

Note that I said that Biden WILL suffer for being too establishment - just as HRC did, because of his own history. I completely disagree that Clinton was LESS establishment than Biden -- they both are extremely establishment. Clinton was at the top level of US Democratic politics since 1992. (In 2000, she might have been a new Senator, but politically, she was far more powerful than her seniority dictated.) I said he was too old and never argued that Clinton was too old.

My main point is that Biden is NOT being hailed by many Democrats as the Democratic savior. There is NOTHING like the 65 to 73% backing Clinton in 2012 - 2014 (go to bottom of link and read upward - http://pollingreport.com/wh16dem.htm ) Biden is absolutely nowhere near where she was 4 years ago.

As to it being white privilege, imagine the 2 term limit was repealed. I KNOW who would be the overwhelming favorite - Obama.

As other have said, the current "designation" is basically name recognition. Biden and Sanders are the only possibilities with real name recognition - other than Clinton, who has made it clear she is not running.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:24 PM

211. I hadn't heard that Biden was considered the front runner...

Nonetheless, I have no idea who I will support. Whoever I believe will best fight the corruption, economic. social and racial inequality will get my vote. Time for them to start convincing me will come soon.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 02:36 PM

214. Between Anita Hill and threatening to punch the president, I dont think so...

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 03:57 PM

227. Who said he was the front runner?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 04:09 PM

228. He's certainly got the best resume.

I don't see any other people that have expressed interest in running for President with a better one. There's also name recognition. Keep in mind that outside of our DU bubble few could tell you Sen Harris'es first name or even identify her as a sitting US Senator. Hell, you could apply that to Booker, Gillibrand and Patrick for that matter.

"Joe Biden could be a great candidate. But so could Eric Holder and Elizabeth Warren and Cory Booker and Kirsten Gillibrand and Kamala Harris and Deval Patrick."

I agree these people are qualified but have they expressed an interest in running either now or in the past? Joe Biden has. Warren flat out says no but people don't seem to believe her.

My pick? None. It's too early for me to even think about 2020 candidates and "front runner" status is a meaningless title at this point, imo.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 04:15 PM

229. While I didn't give it any thought previously, I can see where Effie is comming from.

I'll preface this with the fact that I like Biden and would have no problem with him running. However, there are lots of folks that could potentially make for a great president, but they are not being cultivated in the public mind in the way Biden seems to be. I know he was VP and all but the part of the clarion call for pulling against Hillary was her age and her connection to the same ole, same ole ways of doing things in government. There are potential Democratic candidates who have experience but less wear and tear that should be looked at in the runup to the 2020 election.

Biden has been in Washington for a long time and it's not being used against him in the same way. Similarly, his experience is viewed in a completely different light; as a plus rather than some sort of conspiratorial minus. A goodish chunk of the electorate have decided that experience doesn't matter anyway. Let's run Oprah, or Zuckerberg(well, maybe not now) or whoever else from our side, and from them.... well you know what kind of bullshit they want to run.
Biden looks look like a good choice for most folks because we like him(he'd be a good Democratic president). But just as important the other side also likes him. Why does the other side like him? Is it because of his policies which fly in the face of of all the absolutely stupid shit the republican mindset deems worthy of doing or is it because they are willing to turn the keys over to a face that best represents their view of what a proper politician should be; namely male and white( and of the appropriate heritage).

Now, when folks from our side start talking about Joe running because he appeals to people from the right it's sort of like saying "hey, well there are all these other people that should run but we need to go for what is safe because we need to win". But matter of fact in this case "safe" and "default" has been white and male for pretty much the entire history of this country. I'm not calling anybody racist for thinking this way because it's been only relatively recently when that default has been challenged. Change is hard but the better part of the country is rising to the challenge. Our problem is the ones that don't want to change and are willing to cling to the default much to the detriment of the country. This way of doing things leads to the thinking that we have to run candidates that will win and that means a subconscious reversion to the default, hence Effie's white male privilege.

Just so you guys understand I'm not casting the charge of racism against anybody I'll add in this. I didn't think it was time for Obama to run in 07/08. I truly didn't think this country had it in them to elect a black man president at that moment. The shit was hitting the fan and we couldn't let the republicans do any more damage. That election had to be won and I thought both Hillary and Obama were iffy choices. At the time I said something along the lines of "just put up any sane white guy". The country knew who was at fault but I was sure they would go right ahead and vote the default and put McCain and an unqualified crazy white woman in office as vice president (ironically she was/is far more experienced than what's in there now).

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Response to Afromania (Reply #229)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 04:53 PM

233. Thank you for this awesome post

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 05:13 PM

234. K&R

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 06:32 PM

237. The only old white guy I would vote for is Bernie Sanders

or maybe John Kerry.

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Response to milestogo (Reply #237)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 06:46 PM

238. Why them and not Biden?

Just curious

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #238)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:31 PM

262. I don't like Biden's gaffes.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 06:50 PM

240. huh, and here i thought it was because...

the polling for 2020 is pretty sparse and there aren't any declared candidates yet. Biden has an exploratory committee so he's always in those polls and as a consequence he's the "frontrunner". Get the media to include Kamala Harris and Castro and Gillibrand, etc in their polls and maybe we will see a more rounded calculus.


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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 07:35 PM

247. He was a senator and V.P.

Why wouldn't he be a front-runner?

I'd like to see Booker and Harris make a run. Less so Warren.

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Response to phylny (Reply #247)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 08:43 PM

251. And Hillary was a Senator, Secretary of State and First Lady

But that was often used against her - supposedly as evidence that she was too ďestablishment,Ē too ďWashington,Ē a sellout, etc. Her 8 years as First Lady was often held against her - she was blamed for everything and anything her husband did that we didnít like (e.g., the Crime Bill, his adultery), was criticized for being overly ambitious in wanting to return to the White House - and was used as an evidence that sheíd been around too long and needed to move on so we could have some new blood. And now, despite her vast experience, every time she opens her mouth, people clamor for her to shut up and go away.

Itís not just her. Nancy Pelosi and Diane Feinstein have lately been told - even on DU- that theyíve been on the scene too long and should move on to make way for ďnewer, fresher faces.Ē This even though, like Hillary, theyíve been in national politics for less than half the time Biden has been.

Nevertheless, Bidenís 45 years in Washington - including 30 as a Senator - are being hailed as proof of his experience and readiness. No one is blaming him for any policy or action by Obama that we donít like (even though, unlike Hillary, he was an official part of the administration) or attacking him for the Crime Bill (which, again unlike Hillary, he DID vote for) or saying heís been around too long or that HIS 8 years at the side of the President makes him old news or that his obvious ambition to be President is a bad thing.

Iím pointing out a double standard thatís as plain as day, but this clearly has hit some nerves.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #251)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 09:23 PM

256. The OP is about frontrunner talk and Hillary was the ultimate frontrunner for the nomination

Twice. Youíre making no sense whatsoever.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #256)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 09:24 PM

257. Im making perfect sense. You just seem to be having trouble understanding it.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 08:44 PM

252. what we need is

to re learn howto have primaries that do not devolve into circular firing squads. I like Joe Biden, especially as he gained strength by being one of the few people in the Democratic party that supported Obama instead of backstabbing him. Unlike many, he was proud to have Obama as a BOSS. All the same, I love Liza Warren, and have yet to see what Kamala Harris is made of, though what i have heard, I like.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 08:46 PM

254. I'm not ready to choose a candidate yet

Most Democrats would be a huge improvement over the psychopath.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 09:15 PM

255. Aside from Obama, if we needed to fill the job tomorrow,

I think Joe would be the most experienced and best pick on short notice. I really like him. Always have.

The talk of while male entitlement is nonsense - has nothing to do with it. I think he's a great candidate based upon merit, political beliefs, temperament and experience, etc, etc

I liked Bernie Sanders too. But 2020 is a long way off in political time and I'm looking elsewhere.

I'm looking for a younger candidate who can hold the office for eight years and be a great president. Sorry for some age discrimination but it's a really tough job for a younger man.

To me, Bernie & Joe are too old to be effective for eight years. Bernie will be 86 and Joe 85 in 2028 - the 8th year of their potential term. I'm not even sure how well they will be towards the end of 2024, first term - six plus years from now, when they're 82 and 81. They may not even live that long (hopefully, they outlive Jimmy Carter).

As for the male entitlement nonsense, the group of candidates that seem to intrigue me the most between the sexes are the women led by Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris.

It's a long way off. Others may step forward. I'm going to take my time to digest them.


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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:05 PM

259. Experience and personality..

Let's go back to what works...

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:06 PM

260. Depends on who's talking really, but

I'd say yes and no: yes white privilege is certainly at play, and gives Biden more latitude for missteps and gaffes than others might have, but that's also one of his strong suits, i.e., his personal teflon.

No because if there were anyone else with his electibility, I'd expect that he or she would also be a front-runner. But at the moment there really isn't. How many avuncular Democrats have been Obama's vice president? Not many.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:06 PM

261. And Biden would be older than Reagan...

when Reagan *left* office. Anyone who thinks that doesn't matter is in denial about the aging process.

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