Sorry, not buying the Pence Is Worse thing

[jberryhill]

A president Pence, constrained by a Democratic Congress is a distinguishably better outcome than the present circumstances.

There is no question that Pence - nobody’s choice for anything - is an odious character. But in his blithering ineptitude, he is also not a one man wrecking crew.

IMHO, the “Pence is worse” argument is an attempt to suggest that the rule of law is some sort of means to an end, rather than an end in itself.

[spanone]

1. K&R...

Agreed.

[LenaBaby61]

2. Sorry, not buying the Pence Is Worse thing.

Same here

[nini]

3. He's a different insane

I'm with you though. We MUST get rid of 45

[sarcasmo]

76. Both are insane in a different way. Theocracy insanity VS plain old insanity, still insane.

[SonofDonald]

79. Yup, just a different kind of worse. N/T

[Heartstrings]

4. On the same wavelength tonight, just posted an op on him....

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210486006

[Lint Head]

5. Exactly! If the pervert is gone the suppressed pervert will

be checked by Democrats. Politics is cyclical.

[More_Cowbell]

6. I disagree

There's no guarantee that there'll be a Democratic Congress to control Pence. We're not there yet, and I have no doubt that people are still working to interfere in the next election.

Pence is the candidate the GOP *wanted,* but he was not electable. He won't shoot himself in the foot the way that Trump does.

[jberryhill]

8. Um, Trump is the candidate the GOP nominated

I’m not sure how you are defining what the “GOP wanted” there.

[John Fante]

10. Pence's ideals and personality are almost as wretched as Gump's.

Last edited Fri Apr 13, 2018, 02:35 AM - Edit history (1)

More crucially, Pence lacks Trump's "charisma" (aka: a willingness to say racist shit) and thus would never have the devoted following of Cheetolini.

To normal, non-brainwashed human beings, he'd be seen as the #2 in the most farcical, corrupt, inept, and abhorrent administration in US history.

Pence would be the very definition of a stop-gap president.

[poboy2]

67. non-malignant narcissist not hellbent on destroying Western Civilization

versus
malignant narcissist hellbent on destroying Western Civilization

WINS EVERY TIME

[leftstreet]

20. If they wanted him, they'd have impeached Trump by now

If they have the perfect formidable POTUS in waiting, why won't they even discuss impeachment?

[Atman]

40. The only reason they dont move to impeach Trump...

...is pride and brand loyalty. They’re already known as the party of Nixon. That’s not ancient history. Remember, it’s why they had to start Fox “News.” So, they can’t have another Republican president removed from office. They’d never overcome the tarnish to the image they think is still good. So they’ll put up with Trump’s shit show in the hopes that they can ride it out and maybe give themselves a few treats along the way.

[NewJeffCT]

48. Republicans also admitted

that the impeachment of Clinton was revenge for Nixon's pending impeachment/resignation.

[mythology]

65. If nothing else, their base would start revolting

It would be career suicide.

I think Pence has a lesser range of possible outcomes than Trump. Pence is less likely to start nuclear war, but because he's driven by his own zealous religious beliefs he would be more driven on things like abortion. Trump on the other hand is driven by his ego/arrogance that he might be more willing to work with Democrats if he gets to sign bills to look important.

[NewJeffCT]

49. If pence was the candidate the GOP wanted

He would have run for president. I think most GOP in Congress would have preferred Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio or John Kasich to Pence, who had very low popularity in red state Indiana.

[ProudLib72]

7. If I absolutely had to choose

[oberliner]

32. Was it really that funny?

[Aristus]

60. Well, they were drunk.

And I wouldn't grant a sophisticated sense of humor to professional Royal Navy officers...

[ProudLib72]

78. No, but I wanted to compare us to the intelligent scientist

and tRump/Pence to gross weevils.

[oberliner]

80. Sounds good to me

I was just surprised by how funny everyone at that table thought the joke was.

[Bradshaw3]

9. Are we for the rule of law or political expediency?

If it's the latter then we aren't much better than the repubs who are spinlessly following shitgibbon. If drumpf sold out his country and is guilty of numerous crimes - in addition to being impeachable on incompetence and mental grounds - then he has to go. I think Pence is evil but don't think he is as uncontrollable as drumpf so would be better than a malignant narcissicist who would take us all down with him. But that's secondary. First drumpf has to be held accountable for his crimes that I'm sure he has committed.

[pbmus]

11. He is the lawful religious bigot, but he is at least lawful....

We have the lawless Cheeto Mussolini in office...

[radical noodle]

19. No he isn't lawful

unless he changes the laws to suit himself.

[MFM008]

44. How do we know this?

Nothing is worse than maggot.
NOTHING.
Pence is afraid to eat without
his wife- mom in the room.......
He's containable.

[radical noodle]

64. Would it help you to know

that I'm from Indiana? I lived there all my life until 2012. I've seen him in action for years.

[RandomAccess]

84. You were asked for specifics

I'd like to know more too -- specifically about his "lawlessness." I'm aware of his bigotry - misogyny, homophobia, racism

[radical noodle]

88. While governor

he tried to covertly start a propaganda news source and only stopped when it came to light in the IndyStar.

He essentially ripped away the power of Indiana's legally elected Education Department Head and took away her ability to do her job (she was the only elected Democratic head in the state) because he wanted to defund public education and give more money to private schools. Then he "created" a new person in charge who was a friend of his. He knew he could get away with it because he was supported by all the Republicans in the house and senate.

He made a law that demanded aborted or miscarried fetuses be buried or cremated. He's tried every way possible to drive Planned Parenthood out of Indiana. He took $3.5 million from an assistance program for the poor and gave it to an anti-abortion group. He would like to ban women from the military. He refused any funding to areas of Indiana who had requested help with a major drug epidemic until it was such a disaster that he could no longer ignore it. He wants to put women in jail for miscarrying due to something they've done. One woman was given a sentence of 20 years in prison for her negligence and feticide in aborting a fetus at 25 weeks. He made it illegal to abort an abnormal fetus.

If you want to know more about the "real" Pence, try this:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/23/the-danger-of-president-pence

After trump, pence will look like a hero and an honorable man even though nothing could be further from the truth. I would not be surprised if pence hasn't figured out a way to leak some of the bad stuff about trump in order to get trump out of his way.

I don't just want trump out, I want both of them out. Those who believe that pence knew nothing about all the Russian stuff are fooling themselves.

Maybe these issues aren't a problem for you, but they sure are for me.

[RandomAccess]

91. Thank you

As I said, I was aware of his misogyny, homophobia and racism, including the fetus burial bill, but not aware of most of the rest.

My concern about Pence, aside from all that, is that while he's not crazy in the same way Trump is, he's crazy in his RWNJ way, AND worse: he'd be competent about dealing with Congress and getting things done.

That said, I just don't see him starting WWIII to save his own butt or out of sheer ignorance or narcissism.

I agree he has tremendous liability in the whole Russia thing, including his own ties to Mother Russia.

For all his faults and failings, I don't see him as quite the existential threat to the U.S. that Trump is, BUT, one of my goals for Mueller is to get Pence out too. Not like he doesn't richly deserve it,

Thanks for the info.

[Exotica]

12. Trump needs to be not just taken out of the POTUS but imprisoned

and disgraced more han any other politician in American history. He needs to be poltically/culturally gutted like a hog and rendered to the ash heap of history.

If Pence gets sucked up SHitler's imploding anus on the way to the political pig slaughter, then the more the merrier, BUT GET TRUMP OUT OUT OUT.

HE IS FUCKING NUTS!

[BigmanPigman]

17. He is NOT Mr. Clean if Manafort wanted him. He also has Russian connections.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029773455
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/10029892213
http://www.newsweek.com/mike-pence-was-handpicked-paul-manafort-696412

[manor321]

13. Exactly

Exactly correct. Pence does not have a following. He will not be popular. And remember, an impeached Trump would not go away silently. He'd continue tearing apart the Republican party.

[smirkymonkey]

66. Good point. He will continue to haunt them because he always has to get his

revenge. Secretly, he will be happy that he no longer has the job, but because of his insatiable need for attention, he will never shut up and will continue to cause problems because that will keep the media focus on him.

[JI7]

14. i agree, plus Trump is already destroying Women's Rights, LGBT Rights etc which people as reason

to oppose Pence over Trump.

as least with Pence we would get attention to the issues and what is being done.

[progressoid]

15. Pence would bring in a different staff and cabinet.

Replace Trump's bumbling staff with a semi-competent GOP machine and they can do a lot of damage.

Even assuming we have a Democratic congress, there still are a lot of things a President can do without the consent of Congress.

And Pence currently has better approval numbers than Trump. With the proper PR team, he could easily improve those numbers.

[radical noodle]

22. Like his recent choice as national security advisor?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/13/us/politics/pence-jon-lerner-nikki-haley.html?hpw&rref=politics&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

Outside of his time at the United Nations, Mr. Lerner has held no national security positions, and as a pollster, he has worked for some previous Trump opponents. He advised the “super PAC” supporting Senator Marco Rubio, Republican of Florida, during the 2016 presidential primary. He also advises the anti-tax Club for Growth, which ran several ads denouncing Mr. Trump during the primaries.

[misanthrope]

16. Trump is doing maybe irreparable harm to the institutions themselves

While Pence's aims and policies would be the opposite of what I want, he is capable of decorum and adhering to the rule of law.

[radical noodle]

18. He's no more clean than trump

He had to know what has been going on.

[pnwmom]

21. I agree. Pence is odious the way many Republicans are. But he's not,

as far as we know, a pathological narcissist incapable of any degree of empathy -- to the point of being almost inhuman.

[BlueMTexpat]

23. If the campaign - that also involved

Pence - was involved in collusion, surely Pence should be swept up in the ashes as well!

I want the whole bunch of GOPer grifters and crooks to fall. Every. Single. One.

But, like you, I've never bought into the Pence-is-worse argument.

[rpannier]

24. It seems most of il douche's program is oddly similar to Pence

other than visibility, I don't see any difference
the only possible thing that makes pence worse is that he['s more of a 'Professional Authoritarian' than the 'Raging Authoratarian'

[Garrett78]

25. Trump must be gotten rid of ASAP, but Pence could be worse in the following sense:

1) A Pence Administration would be uber-normalized by the media.

2) A Pence Administration would no doubt be filled with more experienced, competent (yet horrible) people.

3) Pence would be more likely than Trump to win in 2020.

[RandySF]

26. Thats what Nader voters said about Bush in 2000

He’s sane, that’s all he has going for him.

[still_one]

27. I have a slightly different take. Even if the "Pence is worse" argument is valid, the fact is

everything from the total attack on the Constitution from this administration, dismantling and destruction of major departments and institutions, nepotism, conflicts of interest, probable obstruction of justice, conspiring with a foreign power to interfere in our elections, etc. etc. etc, cannot be left unchallenged, and the only mechanism available to currently do that is through impeachment, and/or at the voting both.

All one needs to observe is his recent nomination of a judge who cannot decide if Brown verses the Board of education is a "good or bad" thing, to realize just how diabolical, and ethically challegenged this administration is, and the damage being done to our democracy because of it.

The very real question is will the republicans in congress put country before political party, and that is very much in question

[sheshe2]

81. You should make this an OP, still_one.

That "is very much in question."

[still_one]

82. Thanks sheshe.

[TreasonousBastard]

28. I have no idea how one defines "worse"...

Although he has some paleoontological views, he is not an insufferable egotist with an attention span measured in seconds. He may be dangerous, but I don't see him nearly as destructive.

If we do manage to dump Trump, it would likely be after the new Congress is seated and it could take close to a year. So, we have Pence for a year or so and most of that year will be trying to get organized until the next election.

Would Pence be a genial, bumbling Ford or a monstrous reminder of Tangerine Babyfingers? Probably both.

Remember, gentle Ford lost to Carter as the nation upchucked and cleaned out its memories of Nixon. I suspect we would dump Pence with the same great sigh of relief.

[NewJeffCT]

50. Ford also lost a very close election to Carter

despite the Watergate scandal. That said, Ford was fairly moderate overall while Pence would get Democratic activists up in arms and keep them riled up.

[RhodeIslandOne]

29. What makes you think hes inept?

He’s been in congress and a governor. Unlike lazy Trump, he’d be more than willing to craft bad legislation with the crooks currently in office.

Granted, he won’t be able to do much if we take over in November. But your read on his competence is all wrong.

[amlehn]

30. I partially agree with you

I think we're in a bad situation. I hope that Pence can respect the rule of law. But the way he looks at the Orange Sh*gibbon, it's just weird. I don't get good feels from him. God complex. But hey, I could be completely wrong. I was wrong when we had the most qualified person for a particular position, aw ya know, just the president, lost the post. I'm clueless now. Maybe he has something to offer. I'm positive and naive. Two traits I like about myself and that has not changed in 45 years. Love ya'll! This is my second post and have lurked forever. I've found this place to be the most positive place to visit on the web.

[Mike Nelson]

31. The key phrase is...

"...constrained by a Democratic Congress." If Pence had a cooperative Republican Congress, he could be much worse... and the "rule of law" would not matter; the laws would be changed, or interpreted in the most "conservative" ways.

[Sherman A1]

33. I disagree

Pence understands how the system works and would bring in those capable of forwarding the conservative right wing agenda much more quickly and with much more devastating results to our nation.

[BumRushDaShow]

35. Most of the draconian "RW agenda"

is being enacted in the states and not at the federal level - mainly because the almost even split of the U.S. Senate has been a firewall. The current loons in the Cabinet have been doing their darndest to eliminate regulation and reverse any manner of carrying out the mission of their departments, but they are so enamored at feeding from the trough of the federal government to enhance the appearance of their wealth and status, that they are self-detonating and get shoved out the proverbial revolving door.

Pence was governor of a state that has the same population as my city's metro area, so I don't think that translates well at the macro level of hundreds of millions.

[Sherman A1]

38. We will have to disagree

I recall that Pence also served in Congress and as I mentioned understands even from the point of view of a Governor how the system does and doesn't work. I believe that Pence is far worse than the current mis administration. That said, If the election of DT is suspect then it would be reasonable that the election of Pence would be likewise compromised. One hopes that in some way they can both go away.

[BumRushDaShow]

42. I think we are seeing the beginning of the end of the teabaggers

as their 7 year reign of terror is up, and he is aligned with them. Even if he were to somehow ascend to the top position, it would probably be as a lame duck.

[MrsCoffee]

34. He is fucking evil.

He thinks god talks to him and that god wants him to punish women and lgbt.

[NightWatcher]

36. pence is at least familiar with the processes of government instead of a hack reality "star"

And like you said, he will be operating under the shadow of a failed trump administration and will be very limited, especially when the Dems take the Congress.

[KG]

37. pence has an actual ideology, unlike the trumpf who just parrots what the last person in his face

said. not sure which is worse.

[Vinca]

39. In one sense, Pence is worse because I can see all of the GOP getting behind him in 2020

if he is POTUS running for re-election. On the surface, Pence appears more "normal" (whatever the hell that is now . . . LOL), but he's the guy who believes the Rapture is coming (no need to worry about climate change) and would send women back to the middle of the 19th century. Best case scenario is he gets tied into the scandal and goes, too. That leaves us with Eddie Munster who would suddenly change his plans about leaving government. There's an opening to beat him in 2020 because Faux Snooze has been flogging him since Don's been king. The only happy ending is a Dem wins in 2020.

[GoCubsGo]

41. The people of Indiana might disagree about him not being a "one man wrecking crew."

He drove that place into the ground, and from what I understand, they were thrilled when he left to become VP. That being said, yes. I agree that "President Pence with a Democratic Congress" is better than what we have now, even with the usual republican obstruction. Better gridlock than WWIII.

[struggle4progress]

43. Trump is so bad, it's hard to believe Pence could be worse. Ditching Trump for Pence

would earn the GOP a short honeymoon, but it would be short -- and with a weary electorate, we might expect the GOP to pay heavily when Pence screws up

Given the choice, I'd risk some real loss of progress on my goals to save my country from this bad trip on Orange Moonshine

[dalton99a]

45. "So I picked this guy because Manafort said Putin wanted him on the ticket"

[Greybnk48]

46. Would you be ok with Jerry Falwell or Franklin Graham?

Both raging homophobes, racists and misogynists to their very core. That kind of religious crazy leads to some vicious governance that can and has gotten people killed.

Donald Trump is crazy and dangerous, but not in the sinister, plotting way Mike Pence is, and, for example, a like-minded minion of his like Betsy Devos, whose malice is deliberately aimed to hurt large groups of people she's zealously cut from the herd based on her insane, distorted religious beliefs.

[jberryhill]

53. I'm not -okay- with Pence

The GOP has one primary election strategy:

1. Convince hardcore Republicans that a Democratic majority will result in impeachment, and

2. Convince misguided Democrats of the same thing, with the notion "Pence is worse".

IMHO, it should be considered a "right wing talking point" as far as DU is concerned.

[Greybnk48]

57. I'm not sure what you're implying.

Are you saying that "Pence is worse" will lead Democrats to NOT vote for a Democratic majority in the Fall because of fear that it would lead to a Trump impeachment, and, consequently, a Pence Presidency?

Never happen. All of the Dems i know and hang with want the "Blue Wave" in the Fall to be so big it rips the skin off the GOP. Pence or no Pence.

THAT SAID, my worry is that some are willing to give Pence a pass to get rid of Trump and I am completely against that. I think many on the right, not his base but in Congress, have always viewed Trump as a Trojan Horse to sneak fucking batshit crazy Pence in through the backdoor, knowing he would never be elected properly because of his views. That cannot be allowed, period.

[poboy2]

69. Its sort of amazing that this basic fact of sane is better than madman

needs to be 'debated'. Of course you are correct.

[lark]

51. Pence is worse domestically, but not as likely to start a nuclear war.

We know he's a lying rw repug, so we'd still have a rw partisan liar as the head of our government. However, I think he'd be much better internationally, not as likely to start a nuclear war for fun or revenge. Neither of them are whar I want. I want Mueller to provide proof of Pence's collusion with Russia, along with RNC, Ryan and McConnell - that is what is truly needed.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

52. I'm with you... as bad as a President Pence would be.

[Orsino]

54. Well, either Trump or Pence would be "better" if constrained by Dem majorities.

We would expect either to veto anything good we try to pass.

[Kaleva]

55. Agree

Pence is so bland he'd have a hard time retaining the support of the Trump supporters.

[IronLionZion]

56. He would keep a lower profile with fewer gaffes and stupid tweets

while being a hard-right conservative on policy.

We probably won't get as much opposition to him from the general public since he's less likely to say offensive things like Trump.

If Dems take the house and increase our numbers in the Senate, we could probably put checks and balances on whatever Pence dishes out.

President Pence would obviously throw lgbt people under the bus but probably not other minorities or immigrants. So we would have fewer people to defend. Not sure if Pence has much support from the white power crowd. He'll throw women under the bus professionally, but would probably not encourage womanizing and sexual assault like Trump does.

Choose your battles.

[mercuryblues]

58. Pence would not start WWWIII

over a twitter spat. Even though he would have the Nuke football, he won't enter the code because Kim Jong-un called him a fat tub of lard. That in and of itself, makes Pence a better choice.

Personally, I would prefer that Pence resigns as Agnew did, after the Nov elections. Then trump will have to niminate a new VP, which has to pass a congressional vote. But if you think about it all the R's are freaking ideological asswipes. Not a 1 of them have any decency and are complicit with their silence and other ways. On retrospect that would be a lateral move.

Pence is a religious nutjob. If he does become president, we better GOTV to stop his idiological agenda.
With him taking over that should be pretty easy as even republicans obviously don't want him. If they did they could have impeached trump for at least 5 things by now.

A question I ask myself is why don't the republiklans don't want him.

[EffieBlack]

68. People said that about Trump - even some Dems said he was less hawksh than Hillary

And I recall an awful lot of folk saying things like: “Oh, come on! Trump’s all talk. He’s not REALLY going to do all those things. And even if he tried, Congress won’t let him.”

So, I was pretty much over the “Pence won’t be as bad as Trump because ...” arguments before they even started.

[workinclasszero]

59. Agree 100%

Trump is a clear and present danger to democracy and the rule of law in this country every minute he remains in the White House.

We can deal with Pence later, Trump is the main threat always IMO.

[smirkymonkey]

70. I completely agree. At least with Pence we won't have the constant stress of

having to worry about nuclear war.

[workinclasszero]

86. Right

[Fiendish Thingy]

61. No big deal, especially if Dems retake house and senate

Timing is key- if Trump is gone before November, then Pence could try to ram through extremist judges, laws , etc. After November, he'd be the lamest of ducks.

[treestar]

62. There is no one on the planet

There is no one on the planetWorse than the Donald.

[BoneyardDem]

63. I heartily agree

and have had this consideration since Trump's inauguration.

[IluvPitties]

71. I agree. Pence is an average Republican nutjob.

Trump is a traitor.

[Demsrule86]

72. Pence is a POS...but Trump is a would be fascist and a criminal.

I agree with you.

[Paladin]

73. Agree completely. (nt)

[smirkymonkey]

74. Neither am I.

Last edited Fri Apr 13, 2018, 05:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Pence is awful, but Trump is a daily nightmare. First of all, I don't think Pence will last long even if he does succeed Trump. He doesn't have the cult-like following that Trump has and he's too boring to sway any of the Independents or non-voters. Not only that, but there is a good chance that Pence is as dirty as Trump and is likely to be investigated as well. I don't think he has much of a future. If he hadn't been chosen as VP, he probably would have lost his next race in solid red Indiana.

Also, he doesn't have Trump's pathological need for attention, so at least we wouldn't have to hear from him and about him all day, every day, ad nauseum. Trump is exhausting. The blandness of Pence would be a welcome relief.

[moriah]

75. He's remarkably good at "not knowing" anything that would get him in trouble...

Too damn good for it to be coincidence or ineptitude. You have to TRY to bury your head so far in the sand... but we need the Republican party and Pence himself so tied to Trump's fuckups that he can't win in 2020 before impeaching Trump.

Don't make the mistake of dismissing Pence as inept. He is the Evangelical wet dream and probably the reason many were able to hold their noses for Trump -- thinking if he did fuck up bad enough they'd get a President who likely watches The Handmaid's Tale for inspiration.

I'm all for any criminal case against anybody at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue to go ahead. I want to see Trump try to say he's above the law and can't be indicted. That'd be the rule of law. I want to see him as at least named a co-conspirator in any charges against Cohen for campaign finance fraud, based on what we know has been released into public record.

Impeachment is a political process, which like all political processes, should be done strategically in the political climate we have. Yes, it is a means to an end.

[Denis 11]

77. The only good thing about Trump is...

He is destroying the Republican brand for all but the most dim deplorables. Pence could possibly help them recover some semblance of normality.

[Sugar Smack]

83. Pence isn't worse than trump. And what's more, we (Dems) have all the witches.

Pence is scared of witches.

[RandomAccess]

85. Damn straight. Here's proof --

[Progressive dog]

87. Trump is a psychopath who has spent

his life as a conman without ever being held accountable by the law. He might be insane. Even if Pence was as bad o even worse than Trump, the survival of our system of government requires that Trump be removed from office and prosecuted.
No one is above the law, Trump must go.

[Kirk Lover]

89. At least he knows how to keep his mouth shut and his dick in his pants.

[kskiska]

90. Look at the damage Trump has done

with just Executive Orders.