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BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:53 AM Jul 2012

The Olympics: faster, higher, stronger--- unless three of you are from the same country.

I was curious about people's opinions about various rules at the Olympics limiting the number of participants from any given country. Like a lot of people, I only follow these sports once every four years, and the existence of these rules came as a surprise to me.

The most high-profile case, at least in the United States, is in the women's gymnastics individual all-around competition. As I understand it, the athletes' performances from the team qualifying round are used to select the finalists for the individual competition. The top 24 gymnasts are chosen, with the huge caveat that only two can be from any given country. This time, this rules out American Jordyn Wieber, the reigning world champion, who finished fourth overall (two of her teammates, Aly Raisman and Gabby Douglas, finished second and third). Three other athletes--one each from Russia, Japan, and Britain, also would have qualified, but were third-best on their respective teams and will also miss the finals.

In my own uninformed opinion, the rule seems preposterous. I've always thought that the Olympics were for the most part individual competitions. Athletes might come from a particular country, but they compete as individuals--they put in the work, they do all the training, they should get all the credit. If one ideal of the Olympics is to feature the highest level of competition, then it has to feature the best athletes. How can the person who finished fourth best in qualifying not be in the final field of 24? The focus then turns away from individual athletic accomplishment to some tired national rivalries about medal counts and other petty things. A movement that is supposed to be about transcending national boundaries becomes a squabble between them. The bronze medal no longer means third in the world--a stupendous achievement-- and becomes the much murkier "third best, if you excluded a bunch of people who had the bad luck of coming from the same country as some other folks."

As it turns out, this rule comes not from the Olympics, but from FIG, the international gymnastics federation. (Oh, for an international sporting organization that isn't politicized and decrepit.) Similar rules exist for other sports-- in swimming, each country can only put forth two competitors per individual event. After the Chinese swept the table tennis medals in Beijing, the sport decided only two players per country could participate at the Olympics. To me, this kind of thing cheapens the competition. As far as is practical, we want to see the world's best compete. If the world's three best are all Chinese, or Jamaican, or Romanian, then let's have three of the same nation's flags above the podium.

There is an argument to be made--and a good one-- that the Olympics are also about inclusion, not just competition. To me, that's the purpose of the preliminary rounds. Everyone had a chance to participate in the qualifying rounds of the gymnastics competition. The chance to participate, and to compete fairly against the rest of the world, came there. That's where the Olympic spirit of celebrating effort and participation lives. For the rest of the competition, however, we should see the contest as one of athletic merit, without regard to nationality or such provincial concerns.

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The Olympics: faster, higher, stronger--- unless three of you are from the same country. (Original Post) BlueCheese Jul 2012 OP
Games are defined by rules jberryhill Jul 2012 #1
Preposterous. elleng Jul 2012 #2
The previous rule allowed three from any one country, not two. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2012 #13
It's a stupid rule. Zoeisright Jul 2012 #3
I think the gymnastic rule is a bit of a shame, but I don't have an issue w/ the table tennis or fishwax Jul 2012 #4
You bring up a good point. BlueCheese Jul 2012 #5
It's a sham. This is the first time it has been instated, FourScore Jul 2012 #6
There are rules...period. Other teams abide by the same rules. chelsea0011 Jul 2012 #7
because we're in America belcffub Jul 2012 #8
I'm willing to bet the US originally pushed for a rule like that... joeybee12 Jul 2012 #9
I think the outrage is more over the scoring, her little mistakes seemed more harshly judged Baclava Jul 2012 #10
Yup. I've always worried about anti-Americanism among the judges. Odin2005 Jul 2012 #15
Agreed and recommended. distantearlywarning Jul 2012 #11
It's an absolutely idiotic rule. Lizzie Poppet Jul 2012 #12
Bela Karolyi was ranting against it to Costas yesterday Odin2005 Jul 2012 #14
I saw that, and he also complained about the scoring. senseandsensibility Jul 2012 #16
It should be the best in the world 4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #17
It is and has never been "the best in the world". If this were chelsea0011 Jul 2012 #18
That policy is in keeping with the Olympic concept cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #19
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
1. Games are defined by rules
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 01:56 AM
Jul 2012

And rules can be arbitrary.

But strategy consists of developing a course of action to maximize the return, given the rules.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
13. The previous rule allowed three from any one country, not two.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:17 AM
Jul 2012

That was stupid, too...just not quite as stupid.

Zoeisright

(8,339 posts)
3. It's a stupid rule.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:05 AM
Jul 2012

The Olympics are not about inclusion; they're about who is the best. And you're right; prelims give everyone a chance.

fishwax

(29,149 posts)
4. I think the gymnastic rule is a bit of a shame, but I don't have an issue w/ the table tennis or
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:08 AM
Jul 2012

swimming rules. Those seem to me to be different because they are about entry into the Olympic tournament as a whole, rather than about how one advances within the Olympic tournament. It doesn't bother me that only two teams from each country can compete in table tennis any more than it bothers me that only one team from each country can compete in basketball.

But within the tournament itself, it seems odd to me that the best competitors don't necessarily advance, as with the four gymnasts who finished in the top 24 but won't be going to the all-around final.

BlueCheese

(2,522 posts)
5. You bring up a good point.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:20 AM
Jul 2012

In events like swimming and table tennis, the selection happens at national-level tournaments. Both there and later at the Olympics, it's pure merit. Quite possibly the third-best Australian 100m freestyle swimmer is faster than some of the competitors at the Olympics, but at each level, if you beat someone in direct competition, they won't advance instead of you.

Gymnastics is unusual in that everyone competes at the same meet, and then, 24 of the not necessarily best athletes are chosen. Jordyn Wieber outscored 21 of the 24 athletes who will compete instead of her, on the same equipment in front of the same judges. Anastasia Grishina of Russia did better than 13 of them. But she won't be in the finals either.

FourScore

(9,704 posts)
6. It's a sham. This is the first time it has been instated,
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:49 AM
Jul 2012

and, quite frankly, I think it will be the last. Especially by the way it is being criticized. I wish a last minute appeal could be made. It is ridiculous that THE WORLD CHAMPION in gymnastics can't compete in the individual all-around just because her teammates beat her by .10 and .30 points.

Also, what does such a rule do to the team in competition??? They are hoping for the TEAM that their teammates score well, but they are conflicted and also hoping they don't do too well, because they don't want to lose out on placing in the individuals meet.

It's a STUPID, STUPID rule and I'd like to know who came up with the ridiculous idea!

chelsea0011

(10,115 posts)
7. There are rules...period. Other teams abide by the same rules.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 07:38 AM
Jul 2012

And rules also apply to qualifiers to get to the Olympics. Would a marathon of only Kenyans and Ethiopians sound like a race you would want to see or does having a couple or three Americans make it more interesting. I'll tell ya. You only hear the complaints when an American is involved.
































belcffub

(595 posts)
8. because we're in America
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 08:06 AM
Jul 2012

if this was a Kenyan forum and the a member of our team was dropped so a slower American could run you would probably hear some complaining as well...

 

joeybee12

(56,177 posts)
9. I'm willing to bet the US originally pushed for a rule like that...
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 08:12 AM
Jul 2012

When the Russians and Romanians were dominant and other countries were being represented in the all-around.

 

Baclava

(12,047 posts)
10. I think the outrage is more over the scoring, her little mistakes seemed more harshly judged
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 09:43 AM
Jul 2012

well, that's why I prefer the 'beat the clock events' over anything involving political judging

somebody didn't want our reigning World Champion, best all-around athlete, to be in the all-around final, imagine that

I watched the russian and romanian girls routines - they were falling and flopping all over the place with easier routines and still got better scores than Jordyn Wieber

They should throw out the high and low scores like in diving, maybe that will help

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
15. Yup. I've always worried about anti-Americanism among the judges.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:11 PM
Jul 2012

They were punishing our women, especially on the floor routines, but were letting the Russians and Romanians off easy.

distantearlywarning

(4,475 posts)
11. Agreed and recommended.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 10:01 AM
Jul 2012

It's total bullshit.

A lot of things like this are pissing me off this Olympics.

And for those who think that we only care because it's an American getting screwed, the thing with the Korean fencer yesterday pissed me off more than the thing with Jordyn Wieber. That situation was horribly ridiculous and sad, and if I were one of the Korean coaches or fencers I would be absolutely livid and preparing a lawsuit (if suing is even possible).

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
12. It's an absolutely idiotic rule.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:14 AM
Jul 2012

If a country managed to put every member of their team into the all-around finals, so be it. The other countries would just have to react to someone raising the bar. The entire point is to showcase the best of the best competing for the gold.

Instead we have the idiocy of the #4 scoring competitor (and someone highly likely to improve on that) not competing. This was the rule going in and thus must be adhered to, but for fuck sake, change it before the next Worlds.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
14. Bela Karolyi was ranting against it to Costas yesterday
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:08 PM
Jul 2012

And I agree with him. I Bet the rule came from sour grapes from countries jealous of the Romanians.

senseandsensibility

(17,000 posts)
16. I saw that, and he also complained about the scoring.
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:24 PM
Jul 2012

He was really angry about the "two only" rule, but also felt that Jordyn had been scored unfairly.

 

4th law of robotics

(6,801 posts)
17. It should be the best in the world
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 12:25 PM
Jul 2012

not the best two from arbitrarily defined regions.

This is a blatant attempt to increase ratings.

chelsea0011

(10,115 posts)
18. It is and has never been "the best in the world". If this were
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:05 PM
Jul 2012

true the marathon would be made up of all Kenyon's and Ethiopians and the 100 meter would be all Americans and Jamaicans.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
19. That policy is in keeping with the Olympic concept
Tue Jul 31, 2012, 02:11 PM
Jul 2012

The Olympics already does that, from the get go.

The US could field an Olympic team of 100 sprinters all faster than the fastest person from many, many countries.

The US could put hundreds of Olympic quality basketball teams on the court.

The olympics isn't "the best in the world" at any point, it is about competing nations.

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