Black woman, Jewish man clash over race, religion on subway train

[oberliner]

Two straphangers were caught on cell phone video arguing with each other over race and religion — one of them cursing and shouting — during a wild rush-hour ride.

The Thursday morning screamfest between a black woman and a Jewish man, posted by commuter Chris French on Twitter, erupted over subway etiquette in their crowded Bronx-bound No. 4 subway car.

"You said I'm being racist, so you tell me who I'm being racist towards," the woman shouted in the video. "Because you're Jewish, and I said if a Jewish family got on here, somebody would have gotten up. That's not a racist statement! That is a factual statement!"

"Yes it is racist," replied the man, who was wearing a yarmulke.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/black-woman-jewish-man-clash-race-religion-train-article-1.4014363

[BumRushDaShow]

1. Unfortunately no context as to what precipitated it

but what she said is correct - that "Judaism" is not a "race" by the U.S. census definitions (and majority populations bizarre characterizations of "race" ).

She is also citing an unfortunate history which was laid out dramatically in various NYT articles over the years including this one -

At 50, Levittown Contends With Its Legacy of Bias

By BRUCE LAMBERT DEC. 28, 1997

The year-long 50th-birthday party for this pioneering suburb on Long Island is winding down. The parade drew 5,000 marchers. Crowds came for candlelight church services, an antique-car show, exhibits, seminars and tours of the fabled Levitt houses that started it all. There were even Potato Day festivities honoring the flat farmland here where Levitt & Sons began mass-producing single-family tract homes in 1947, heralding the wave of migration from cities that lasted for decades. But not everyone touched by the Levittown experience has been celebrating.

''The anniversary leaves me cold,'' said Eugene Burnett, who was among thousands of military veterans who lined up for their green patch of the American dream here after World War II. But he was turned away because he is black. ''It's symbolic of segregation in America,'' he said. ''That's the legacy of Levittown. ''When I hear 'Levittown,' what rings in my mind is when the salesman said: 'It's not me, you see, but the owners of this development have not as yet decided whether they're going to sell these homes to Negroes,' '' Mr. Burnett, now a retired Suffolk County police sergeant, recalled. He said he still stings from ''the feeling of rejection on that long ride back to Harlem.''

The salesman was not honest with Mr. Burnett. Blacks and other minorities had no chance of getting in, because Levitt had decided from the start to admit only whites. Delano Stewart, editor of The Point of View, a Long Island biweekly on black affairs, said of Levittown: ''It's something we'd like to forget rather than celebrate. It's a black mark on the Island, or maybe I should say a white mark.''

The whites-only policy was not some unspoken gentlemen's agreement. It was cast in bold capital letters in clause 25 of the standard lease for the first Levitt houses, which included an option to buy. It stated that the home could not ''be used or occupied by any person other than members of the Caucasian race.'' That clause was dropped in 1948 after the United States Supreme Court, ruling on another case, declared such restrictions to be ''unenforceable as law and contrary to public policy.'' Ignoring the law of the land, however, Levitt continued adhering to its racial bar. Levittown quickly filled up with young white families. Minority residents trickled in during the 1950's, but the pattern was set.

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/12/28/nyregion/at-50-levittown-contends-with-its-legacy-of-bias.html

And this wasn't just the Levittown in New York. It was the Levittown here in PA (Bucks County) and the Levittown (eventually renamed Willingboro) in Burlington County, NJ.

I.e., (regarding the NJ one that is now predominately black because there were successful cases brought to finally "break" it) -

Did you know New Jersey had a Levittown?

By Bill BarlowNovember 2, 2017

<...>

Priced to sell

Levittowns were popular because they offered new affordable single-family homes. They were built fast, and built cheap with prices ranging from $12,000 for the Jublilee model to $17,500 for the Country Clubber. Levitt’s homes were attractive to WWII veterans who under the GI Bill were eligible for low interest loans. This put the suburban dream in reach for many but not for everyone. While Willingboro today is 75 percent African-American, that’s not the way Levitt had imagined it.

Whites only

Legal segregation remained in force throughout the South in the 1950s, but the North, the process was most subtle, if just as noxious. Levitt and Sons would not sell to blacks, and included with each house was a deed covenant restricting sales to “the Caucasian race.” “Bill Levitt would probably have considered himself a social progressive,” said Curt Miner, a senior history curator for the State Museum of Pennsylvania, who put together an exhibit on the Levittown experience. But Levitt did not believe whites would continue to buy his houses if his developments were integrated.

“As a Jew, I have no room in my mind or heart for racial prejudice. But I have come to know that if we sell one house to a Negro family, then 90 or 95 percent of our white customers will not buy into the community. This is their attitude, not ours. As a company, our position is simply this: We can solve a housing problem, or we can try to solve a racial problem, but we cannot combine the two,” said Levitt, as quoted in a New York Times review of Richard Rothstein’s book “The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America.”

Christine Hill said the integration of Willingboro began with a lawsuit brought by Rev. Willie James, which overturned the legality of race restrictive covenants in New Jersey. Charles and Vera Williams became the first black family to own a home in Levittown, N.J.

https://whyy.org/articles/know-new-jersey-levittown/

Were either of these individuals involved in Levitt's decisions in the '40s & '50s? Of course not. But the actions of Levitt, a Jew, established that he was recognized as being "white" and utilized "the power and privilege of being white" to deny POC (notably "blacks" ) the ability to live in his new developments across 3 large eastern states in "the North".

This housing issue is part of what precipitated the Public Accommodations Act that has been discussed over the past couple months here on DU regarding blacks and other POC being restricted from restaurants, pools, bathrooms, public parks, golf courses & playgrounds, housing (including homes, condos, and apartments), and other public facilities.

Does this mean "all" Jews this or "all" whites that or "all" whoever? Of course not. But then this is where we again say - we need people "in power" to step up to the plate and continue to do so, to stamp out oppression by virtue of laws that get enacted or policies that are manufactured and/or enforced to the detriment to minorities.

[oberliner]

2. Judaism is a race

In the 1980s, the United States Supreme Court ruled that Jews are a race, at least for purposes of certain anti-discrimination laws.

Yes. The Court unanimously ruled that Jews can state a claim of racial discrimination since they were among the peoples considered to be distinct races and hence within the protection of U.S.C. Section 1982. The statute "was intended to protect from discrimination identifiable classes of persons who are subjected to intentional discrimination solely because of their ancestry or ethnic characteristics."

https://www.oyez.org/cases/1986/85-2156

[BumRushDaShow]

3. In the census

"Judaism" is not a "race" - https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

https://www.census.gov/mso/www/training/pdf/race-ethnicity-onepager.pdf (PDF file)

It is a religion. You have Jews of all races and many ethnicities, although most are European descendants who are recognized as "white". And in your above it even indicates this -

The Jewish people most certainly suffered such discrimination and so were not barred from their claim simply because both they, like the defendants, were Caucasian.

https://www.oyez.org/cases/1986/85-2156

I.e., barring any knowledge of their religious affiliation, most are identified by others as (and identify as) "white".

[oberliner]

4. I think discrimination against Jews can be defined as racism

However, I think it is a semantic point that is not the most significant part of this video, which I am not entirely sure what to make of.

[MountCleaners]

5. It's racism because the Jews are being racialized

Race is a bullshit concept, scientifically. The Nazis, for example, racialized the Jews - they were believed to be of a different "race". The Irish were often racialized in the nineteenth century, to justify subjugation. Any group can be racialized. Racism is a social fact but it doesn't mean that race itself is a real thing.

[BumRushDaShow]

6. THIS

It is a randomly-assigned label.

[BumRushDaShow]

7. I agree with post #5 in terms of the use of the term

which is randomly assigned - often to the darker-hued Europeans in terms of discriminating between ethnicities within a "race".

Within the field of view of the video, the train is packed, all of the seats are taken, and all of the passengers on the train look to be black except him and the dialog seems to be suggesting whether someone would give up a seat to someone - where she said something like "If a Jewish family had gotten on, someone would have gotten up".

But as I noted earlier, neither the video nor the article mentions what precipitated the argument.

[still_one]

9. It is both. There are DNA markers that will identify the probabilities of someone who is Jewish

I know because I am Jewish and have had those tests, 21andme is an example of such a test

[BumRushDaShow]

10. But the problem again goes to who "defines" race

how it manifests (basically randomly on "appearance" and "origin" ), how it is used in general, and how it can change at a whim. I.e., it is social construct.

Now if you want to talk about genetics and ethnicity, then that is a whole other matter. E.g., the prevalence of the brca mutation among Ashkenazi Jews or Sickle Cell among those who descend from countries that had a high prevalence of malaria, like in many equatorial African countries and other countries along the equator including India, and this genetic mutation offered a certain amount of immunity.

But again, "race" is not a factor. If someone from India had sickle cell (which is unfortunately prevalent there as well), would you call them "black"

I posted this in another thread not too long ago but you have the type of situation where Egyptians (who are North Africans) were dubbed "Caucasian" no matter how they "looked" or were genetically aligned by ethnicity - https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10637315

"White" isn't a "biological" category when your definition happens to attribute such to "race". And the reason is that there are "blacks" who look "white". And in the convoluted, white supremacist-manufactured system of "race" in the U.S., there are "whites" who look "black", like this man, who is Egyptian, and who was classified as "white" when he immigrated here because he was "North African" -



He even sued the federal government to be reclassified but his case was dismissed -

Egyptian Immigrant Wants to be Reclassified as Black

Mostafa Hefny feels he's been black his whole life. The U.S. government doesn't agree.

By Aylin Zafar @azafar Sept. 07, 2012

Anyone who’s ever filled out a census document or taken the SATs is familiar with that odd moment when you have to bubble in your racial classification. For many, the choices are confusing, limiting, and problematic. In the end, each person bubbles in what they best feel represents their identity. But when Mostafa Hefny immigrated to the United States from Egypt in 1978, he didn’t get a say in that decision.

“The government [interviewer] said, ‘You are now white,” Hefny told CBS Detroit.

<...>

“I have been awarded, inadvertently, the negative effects of being black such as racial profiling, stereotypes and disenfranchisement due to my Negroid features. However, the legal demand of my racial classification of ‘white’ prevents me from receiving benefits established for black people, “ he told CBS. Hefny says he’s lost out on university teaching positions because they were positions designed for a minority and he did not qualify.

<...>

“White” is defined as “a person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa” — which is why the U.S. government classifies Hefny as such. However, the desgination for “Black or African American” applies to “a person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.” According to CBS, Hefny says that he is descended from the Nubians, the ancient group of Egyptians from the northern part of Sudan and southern part of Egypt.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/09/07/egyptian-immigrant-wants-to-be-reclassified-as-black/

[still_one]

12. Of course the thread really isn't about a debate between whether Judiasm is a race or religion. It

is a strawman argument to setup a false equivalency that African Americans are just as prone to prejudice as Caucasians, and while no doubt within every demographic group in the U.S., individuals within those respective demographic groups will be found to have their own set of prejudices, the fact is that African Americans have been, and are discriminated by a far greater percentages.

[BumRushDaShow]

13. However I think the issue came up because

that was what was being argued between the two individuals in the video and it is sad that society has gotten to this point.

[itcfish]

17. I Also did that DNA Test

My mother was from Spain and my dad from Italy. My results were 2.5% Jewish, yet 0% Moor (North African) I found that odd. 45% Iberian Pennisula 48% Italian and the rest from the Balkans (?)

[Xolodno]

14. Some elements of Judaism consider themselves "a race". Of course it's bullshit.

If they want to count themselves a race, then they need to recognize the Palestinians as blood brothers. Of course, neither wants to acknowledge that.

Given how much our Jewish line has been watered down over the centuries, it isn't racism, it's bigotry. And bigotry can be just as awful.

But he whole "race" thing is based primarily by twisting the account in Genesis. The account of creation mentions man and woman. But not Adam and Eve. That is actually a separate story and was designed to promote the idea of those of Jewish faith as a "chosen people" set aside from the masses. As evidence, who the fuck is going to kill Cain if his family are the only people on earth? Later in time, the hardliners started promoting the idea as a "race".

And the final nail in the coffin on the race idea...I'm excluded from the Jewish "race" because I consider myself a completed Jew...and the worst part, in the hardliners eyes....my wife is Persian.

[BumRushDaShow]

15. Remember - the "terminology" for "race" here in the U.S.

is vastly different than how it was used in other nations. And what they did here was codify their kooky version into law as a conglomeration of "criteria" that mostly referenced Europeans ("caucasoid" ), Africans ("negroid" ), and Asians ("mongoloid" ) and then devised further wacky definitions based on the blood dilutions and who would be declared what "race" based on what parent was what "race" and other nonsense. About the closest to what they did here of course happened in South Africa, where South Africa went one step further and created a "Colored" race to include many of the East Indians who had migrated there.

[Xolodno]

16. I take solace in the day...

...when everyone on this planet looks like Brazilians.

[BumRushDaShow]

19. Well... I think that is why the Portugese did what they did in Brazil

although it depends on what you mean by "looks like Brazilians" because Brazil has the largest African diaspora on the planet, where there are almost 100,000,000 there (vs the 43,000,000 here in the U.S.), and they had reached majority status back in 2010 and have most likely increased that percentage since.



https://qz.com/1224485/black-panther-shook-up-brazils-black-afro-brazil/

(and I say this given what people tend to get "shown" about Brazil and its people, not unlike what gets "shown" about places like Argentina )

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Anti-semitism is as bad as racism but Judaism is not a race.

One can become a Jew. One can not become white or black .


Judaism has elements of a race, a religion, and an ethnic group but it not exclusively a race, religion, or ethnic group.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. While not a race it is an ethnic group.

People can be born Jews or convert to Judaism. Jews are an ethno-religious group. Some people are "ethnically" Jewish, some are religiously Jewish, and some are both.

"Anti-semitism is as bad as racism..." I think it is sweet you think that, but it is very much not true, at least in my opinion. It should be, make no mistake, but I don't feel people think anti-Semitism is as bad as racism. When it comes to bigotry against people, it is very much "Animal Farm"!

[George II]

20. Judaism is a religion, the Supreme Court doesn't establish race. If....

a Black man converts to Judaism, does that change his race?

[left-of-center2012]

8. "one of them cursing and shouting"

"the woman shouted in the video"

[Hortensis]

11. Black is considered a separate race, and the

Last edited Tue May 29, 2018, 12:57 PM - Edit history (1)

Jewish man apparently accused her of behaving in a racist manner toward him. May or may not be true. Maybe she did behave badly but it was because her hostility was triggered by brown suits, an aggressive clothing bigot. (Or maybe not. )

Frankly, I don't understand where an argument over whether Jewish is a race needs to come in. Whether there are 2 races (black and white) involved or 3, ALL races have their fair shares of troublemaking racist shits. And black antisemitism would be nothing new, which could explain why this Jewish man assumed hostile public behavior against him was racist.

Blacks may be only 13% of our national population, but they outnumber Jews at 2-3% the way whites outnumber blacks. In NYC in 2008, blacks were over 25%, Jews 9%.