Throwing my hat in regarding the Wypipo controversy.

[Baitball Blogger]

The following opinion was originally posted on Effie Black's thread and DQ suggested I repost it as its own thread.


I haven't been following these wypipo threads too closely because of time constraints, so I may be going on a tangent. But, from my personal view:

For forty of my <mumble> years, I was very much entrenched in mostly white environments and I can definitely see why minorities would group Caucasians into a wypipo category. Seriously people. Do you think we would be where we are today if minorities felt that they could count on a vocal number of white people who understand their problems and will have their backs? Nothing in what I have seen in college and out of college suggests that Anglo-leaning cultures understand or care about offering a helping hand. No matter who they are. Well, except for a large percentage of those who are Liberals, but certainly not all.

The response from most of the people in Caucasian groups is silence or they side with the white people who respond to us with admonishment for voicing our opinions. "Who are you?" That's the kind of reaction we get when we stand up and point out facts that question their decisions or decision making process. All the "decent" white people look at us like we're the cautionary tale. This is what will happen to them too, if they agree with us in public venues. So they remain silent and their silence legitimizes whatever aggressive behavior is directed at us.

Jesus. I have had a woman, who I thought was a friend, look uncomfortable when she saw me coming her way on a sidewalk. She was with two other white women and she avoided looking in my direction. I didn't even hear a friendly greeting as they walked passed by. I couldn't have been more than twenty feet away, since I gave them space because I was walking the dog. But this was in an open area where there was nothing taller than grass to block the view. Compare that when the next time we crossed paths when she was alone. Open smile and ready to talk, but for me, it was too late.

For me, all these little collisions have left a large scar where all the nerves and feelings have been stripped. You just can't be subjected to this kind of behavior and leave unchanged. So, in sum, "wypipo" definitely expresses a perspective that is valid. We are being excluded out of certain social circles, especially the circles where decisions are being made that affect our personal lives. Our worlds are split or divided where they count the most. Division exists, it's a reality and it didn't happen by our choice. So, why are you blaming black Americans for finding a term that communicates what they see? Asking them to be silent because it makes white people uncomfortable is just as bad as shutting down minority opinions before an election because you don't want to turn off the racist Southern Democratic votes. Yes, that happened.

I agree with those who say that it will get worse, before it gets better. How can I put it? If you are opposed to the term, maybe you don't see the problem from a minority point of view?

[bettyellen]

1. I agree, even working in a very liberal leaning industry in NYC a few of my coworkers over the years

were openly racist and I got a lot of flack for pushing back. I can think of three specifics times it got ugly, and two of them I really alienated and pissed off some people merely by signaling that their behavior wasn’t cool. With some peers, it was the kiss of death to not go along w their racist shit. They see complaining about racism as worse than racism.

[Baitball Blogger]

2. Thank you bettyellen.

[bettyellen]

3. I think a lot of people aren't noticing the self segregation they're part of, more so with men.

They benefit from being the in-group and ignoring that it exists. The pressure is there to maintain that status quo.

[Baitball Blogger]

6. I couldn't have said it better.

[bettyellen]

9. You already have w this OP, BB. People need to reflect and realize that reflection is not a punish-

Meant and that it’s not a damned admission of any sort of guilt. It’s merely acknowledging our society is malfunctioning - and in a very ugly way right now.

[Baitball Blogger]

17. You get it.

[sheshe2]

4. K&R: Thank you, Baitball Blogger

"If you are opposed to the term, maybe you don't see the problem from a minority point of view?"

[WhiteTara]

5. well said.

[oberliner]

7. What is the point of starting another thread on this?

I ask that question sincerely. What is the end game here?

[DanTex]

12. Some people might find it interesting. I did.

What is the point of asking what the point of the thread is? Isn't it obvious?

[happy feet]

22. As did I

I even rec'd it.

[Eliot Rosewater]

29. I am glad you asked that, I wont interact with certain people here myself.

But some folks, and I am not allowed to even HINT at who, have a REAL problem anytime a black person says almost anything.

[AllyCat]

43. Yeah, I've experienced that with someone *ahem*

Close to this thread too. Other topics as well.

[Baitball Blogger]

14. It appears to be a hot issue and someone may have seen something that they

felt needs to be reinforced.

I personally think that it's important to point out that it doesn't matter if you live in an urban area, or a suburban one. Indications of pushing out minorities from the decision-making process is a real thing. It just might take some of us longer to see it because there are still benefits to remaining quiet. I am willing to bet that many in my generation, who were lighter in skin tone, may have reached further into the assimilation process. I know I tried. I really did. As long as there was mutual acceptance, I went along, trusting the process. But there was a point when it no longer made sense.

It began to get confusing for me in the nineties. At least for me. I can't speak for others. Within family circles I heard comments that were racist in nature and that's when I realized that they weren't trying anymore. Or maybe, I was seeing them as they really were. But the point is, that they were breaking away from the concept of mutual respect or acceptance. I had more than one relative insist that I wasn't Hispanic as if they had cleansed me of my ethnic impurities. That's when I wasn't willing to take another step forward in the process, because the hate talk translates to self-hate.

But it has taken me another twenty years before I finally came across the day where I had another minority member fully agree with me. This is a great day for me. So, pardon me if my celebratory thread offends you.

[Starry Messenger]

20. Membership and reading threads is voluntary

No one forcing you to be here.

[sheshe2]

35. +++

Plus, it is so good to see you Starry.

[sheshe2]

34. I liked BB's response...

I like to read a persons personal life experiences on race and how it has effected their life. This is a message board. It is place to have conversations. I am not sure why you have an issue with that.

[DonCoquixote]

41. what is the point

of people trying to deny the problems that made people make that word? It is not like Blakc people have stopped being killed by police.

[AllyCat]

44. Right?

[treestar]

8. I have read white people can't see the minority view

And that is why they should say nothing about it.

Outside of DU though, I don't think there are many white people who would agree with that, let alone Deplorables. And white people are still numerous.

I don't care about this term; but I do see it is not useful. As soon as the righties hear about it, they are going to jump on the chance to play victim and claim black people and white liberals are the worst racists. Wait, they already do that. But it will go into their arsenal.

[bettyellen]

10. POC find it very useful. Sometimes humor is the only sane choice.

You really want to denigrate them on behalf of RW assholes? I sure don’t.

[Eliot Rosewater]

30. THANK YOU

[treestar]

67. I don't want to denigrate anyone

And that response to what I said is uncalled for.

So it was not meant for white persons to hear?

There is a certain smugness here that does not meet the criteria for "open and honest discussion." I don't see any discussion taking place here; just the chance and the intent to jump on people judgmentally - even hoping they will say something you can judge them for. That response to my ideas shows this.

These threads are to have no responses other than "thank you" and "you are absolutely right" or you take the chance to judge that person. Not useful at all. And with Democrats, too, not even Deplorables or those who just don't care!

[bettyellen]

68. I'm sorry but if you're asking POC (or women) to fall in line to please the GOP I'm going to get

plenty “smug” and say hell no and that’s me being open and honest. I see you don’t even realize how offensive your suggestion is. I don’t know what to say except it’s offensive and not helpful to suggest we police liberals to make them more palatable to narrow minded assholes who hate us.

[procon]

11. How does using a race based word help create the changes you want?

If you look for acknowledgement and understanding, how effective is this tactic going forward? From your perspective you say that whites want to silence you because that racial put down makes them uncomfortable. What different outcome would you prefer when you use that word?

[Baitball Blogger]

15. We are coming from two sides of an issue and there won't be a meeting in the

middle if white Americans get to sanitize every term that makes them feel uncomfortable, which forces them to see the problem through the eyes of a minority.

[Skidmore]

24. This, and

sime white people don't understand the history and racial barbs contained in the what is perceived to be benign words.

[elehhhhna]

49. so it's shock therapy for our benefit?

We do not call other duers names here...or do we?

Easy question.

[sheshe2]

55. Please show me where that was said here to a specific DUer?

Easy question.

[procon]

27. OK, but what then is goal of calling other people a race based insult?

If the goal is just intended to make people "uncomfortable" through forcible confrontations, how do you expect those targeted to respond in a way that advances your cause?

The tactics of racial division that you're promoting have never been effective. However, history is full of examples of successful leaders who advocated world changing, social justice movements. Better to learn from them if you want to achieve the things that you say matter to you.

[Baitball Blogger]

32. I don't see white Americans showing any interest in this issue.

They have had plenty of time to take lead on this issue, and they have been doing nothing but backsliding.

I don't believe that censoring a term that brings light to the issue is going to make any difference to them.

[procon]

47. You're fighting alone, if you look around, you have lots of company.

Historical change comes slowly, may I point out women's rights, by one example. Don't think that Americans aren't interested in racial injustice, we're all around you. A white majority elected Obama, and we love him still, and we will elect more blacks in the future. There are multiracial activists in every protest seen on TV. We're Democrats and we are electing politicians in every state that have policies that support equality. Across the country there are millions of white people supporting and collaborating with local and national racial justice organizing efforts like Black Lives Matter. There are celebrities from all quarters who lend their names and talent to support organizations that advance racial justice. There are more popular movies and TV shows featuring black casts than ever before. Don't be so quick to tear down fellow Democrats just because we disagree with this particular confrontational tactic.

What's different is that Trump has opened the door for a certain segment of the Republican Party who are old school, blatant racists to come out in daylight and they are getting a disproportionate amount of media attention. I don't believe that white supremacists and weirdos like the BBQ nut represent the majority of Republican voters, but they are the focus of news reporting because they are so freakishly grotesque. They are the aberration, not the norm, so keep that perspective in mind and stay focused on an attainable goal.

[heaven05]

26. should have acknowledgement

and understanding anyway, if a person is worth their salt as a liberal/progressive in an obviously and obscenely racist society. Don't need an outcome. Wypipo are on notice, their game is peeped and it ain't shit. Don't like it, can't help that. And if a white person uses this description of a racist sub-group of the white race as some type of reason/excuse to say f*** n******s and their fight for equal rights, chances are they were not allies in the first goddam place.

[sheshe2]

39. +++

[hunter]

13. If a white person can't say "Wypipo" fast three times and not laugh...

... then they just might be wypipo.

[Baitball Blogger]

16. LOL.

[BaileyBill]

18. You seem to be saying that personal anecdotes justify

judging and namecalling for a whole category of fellow human beings. What could go wrong with criteria like that? I'm sorry you knew a woman who was an insensitive bitch, but I am absolutely sure that is not race-specific. None of us can see anything except from our own point of view, and using our own hurt feelings as justification for speaking ill of others is certainly not a path toward any kind of reconciliation.

When our daughter was in Middle School, a young man she had a crush on wanted to take her to a dance. The day before, she came home in tears after the boy said his parents had forbidden him to go anywhere with "that little n-gger bitch." They didn't say that because of the whiteness of their skin, but because of the utter darkness of their souls. And their actions imply nothing about the white and multicolored friends who have been with her throughout the rest of her life.

If using stupid names for others is making you feel better, so be it. As for me, I have as little respect for someone who calls people "libtards" as I do for those who call others "repukes" or whatever the epithet of the day is.

Identify the problems and call them out, by all means. But I think the "controversy" stems from the use of a slang term to lump an entire group of people into the "bad-guy" category, something I would have hoped would be anathema to the users of this forum.

At the risk of being pedantic, perhaps we should be working toward seeing things from a human point of view rather than a minority or majority point of view (no matter who is which).

I hope this link works (it addresses the use of misleading terms like Caucasian, or even black and white):

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-genetics-science-africa/

[heaven05]

31. title should be

no scientific reason for white racism and claims to superiority over EVERY other race, AA especially, in ameriKKKa. All this about WYPIPO being name calling of a whole race of people is new for those who object. It is old hat for brown-skinned people who, like me, have heard the word, the n-word constantly from cradle til my grave. Actually for 300 years and it ain't stopped yet. Oh well.

https://www.theroot.com/jack-johnson-posthumously-tells-donald-trump-to-kiss-his ass

[Baitball Blogger]

33. My experiences are real to me. Calling them anecdotes is an attempt to diffuse

their importance.

[B2G]

19. You all realize this is only a thing on DU, right? Nt

[hunter]

21. And I like it!

[AllyCat]

45. I've had a few racists on FB get mad when I use the term.

[gollygee]

54. No it isn't

It's on a lot of web sites, and social media. Search on Twitter. You not hearing about it elsewhere doesn't mean it isn't elsewhere.

[tonedevil]

57. Have you never...

heard it or seen it written out before? I can assure you it is not new and not only used on DU.

[Heidi]

64. Untrue. (nt)

[heaven05]

23. +++ well said

[Hoyt]

25. ++ There's a lot less hatred behind Wypipo or even Honkie, than what a lot of Wypipo have

have called minorities.

[StTimofEdenRoc]

38. Honkie, every time I see that word I laugh, because I hear Gorge Jefferson saying it.

I doubt that is the intended emotional response the user was after, but ... I am not normal.

[StTimofEdenRoc]

36. If you have something to say, and want it to be heard, why would you use this term?

So wypipo means white people who have failed to live up to your expectations.

" Compare that when the next time we crossed paths when she was alone. Open smile and ready to talk, but for me, it was too late. "

If I gave up on everyone who failed my expectations, I would have a small world.

[AllyCat]

46. Wypipo are whites who fail to live up to human expectation

When they are willfully ignorant of how rude they are to POC to somehow show how dominant they are.

[elehhhhna]

51. #notallwypipo

[EffieBlack]

52. If a POC on a discussion board brings up race and your response is "Oh, not THIS shit again!"

but when someone says, "Wypipo" you throw a fit and insist that it's a racial slur equivalent to being called "nigger," you may be "Wypipo."

If you tell a person of color who says they're offended by you calling them a race-baiter because they say that cops arresting and killing innocent black men they need to stop being so defensive because their constant complaining is "divisive," but then demand that no one use the term "Wypipo" because it offends you and we must all refrain from saying anything that causes anyone any offense, you may be "Wypipo."

If you tell black and brown Democrats that they need to stop focusing on race so much because we must be all hands on deck to get Trump out of office and all of that race talk will turn off the Trump voters you think we need to bring on board, but then threaten to stop being our "ally" because you're pissed that some black people you don't know said "Wypipo," you may be "Wypipo."

[AllyCat]

56. That whole human expectation thing

That explains wypipo perfectly. We have little if any concept how our micro-aggression and embracing of our privilege weakens everyone. It makes me nuts that people can’t listen to POC and say, man that sucks. I’m sorry. And then frickin’ make some changes. Instead, we resist those changes. I agree with OP. We are so worried about losing that privilege. We need to be more uncomfortable until we DO something to fix this mess.

[tonedevil]

59. If someone ignores you...

when they are with their friends you would just pretend like it didn't happen? You would still feel as warmly to this person?

[StTimofEdenRoc]

60. In the example, I would have greeted them warmly.

Worked into the conversation my feeling of hurt and disappointment.
Added perhaps a little sarcasm, but mostly I would resort to guilt.

[tonedevil]

70. For me that speaks to...

a friendship that has evolved to a particular place. In the example perhaps they had been nodding acquaintances and the betrayal of the nod hurt and when followed by a not well received attempt to obtain forgiveness felt artificial. It may be there had been a bit closer relationship and the snub was more personal than you understand from the recounting. Regardless your assessment seems unduly harsh to me.
I might very well use the technique you describe. Then again, I am a 60+ year old white man in the US, my privlage is dialed up to 11. It is rare I am in a social or professional setting where I am not paid deference. I would feel free to approach the person trying to ignore me with, what my daughter calls, an assult hello. Hearty hand shake and a how are you doing. Again, I have a lot of completely unearned privlage.

[StTimofEdenRoc]

71. "my daughter calls, an assault hello" I like that term

[tonedevil]

72. It is really satisfying...

If someone is purposefully ignoring you in public. I find it a delicious guilty pleasure to see the awkward squirming on the victim's face.

[FakeNoose]

37. Sometimes people don't say "hello" because they're near-sighted

... don't take it as an insult. Sometimes people are involved in a conversation, maybe they see you but they're occupied with something else. It's not a sign of racism or rudeness.

If you walked up to me on the sidewalk and said "Hi Ms. FakeNoose, how are you today?" and if I ignored you and walked right past, THAT would be rude. Perhaps it might be racism too. I live in a 50/50 neighborhood and I always wave and say hello to my neighbors even when I don't know their names. If I didn't say hello first, they would often walk by me without saying anything. I know this for a fact.

Does that make me a racist? I don't think so. Does that make my neighbors racist? I hope not, but they also aren't very neighborly either. I've lived here over 20 years and many of my POC neighbors are only here for a year or two. It shouldn't make any difference, but apparently it does.

Let's not look for insults that were never intended, it's better when we try to be friendly whenever possible.

[Sailor65x1]

40. error_overflow

// Wypipo overflow_error.cpp
// compile with: /EHsc /GR
#include <bitset>
#include <iostream>

using namespace Wypipo;

int Wypipo_Thread_Counter( )
{
try
{
bitset< 33 > bitset;
bitset[32] = 1;
bitset[0] = 1;
unsigned long x = bitset.to_ulong( );
}
catch (Wypipo exception &e )
{
cerr << "Caught " << e.what( ) << endl;
cerr << "Type " << typeid( e ).name( ) << endl;
};
}
* Output:
Caught bitset<N> overflow
Type class std_overflow_error, "Wypipo thread count overflow: reduce Wypipo thread count, or assign count to 64-bit register"
*

[LearnedHand]

53. Perfect code. Wrong output

On edit: Reread the code and realized I had laughed too soon. As DU is a discussion board, it feels disengenuous to police the number of wypipo discussion threads.

[Sailor65x1]

63. Dude, really?

C'mon, it's a funny take on this thing that has DU twisted up in knots.

Besides, the Catch block offers the option of assigning the count to a wider register! So it doesn't police anything.

[LearnedHand]

65. It is funny

[AllyCat]

42. Well said B.B.

That is a better way of explaining than what I do. Next time I explain something to others from my “trying to be woke self” I would love to use some of this

[Chemisse]

48. Thank-you for sharing.

It really helped me to see things from a different perspective. I know there is racism everywhere and I know it has to be really hurtful to live under that cloud, but it's good to get an inkling of what it actually feels like from time to time, and that's what your post did for me.

I love the kind and gentle way that you ended this: "If you are opposed to the term, maybe you don't see the problem from a minority point of view?"

It's not an attack; it's an invitation to understand.

[PatrickforO]

50. I have a story...that may take some people out

of their comfort zone.

Background: I'm a white male, now aged 59 years. I'm educated and have been incredibly lucky in my life career wise and also family wise.

OK, so now the story:

Many years ago, when in my late twenties, I was a youth service worker for a summer youth employment program. This means that I managed cases of kids who were between 14 and 18, mostly, who had never worked and wanted a summer job. So, they would work half-time in a federal government subsidized 'job' called a 'work experience' that was designed to give them just that - some good work experience in a job they otherwise wouldn't be able to touch on their own. These were decent positions with local governments, mostly. We had kids working in animal shelters, in school bus barns, in libraries, and in offices. The other half of the day was spent in school - we at the time used a mastery learning system developed by Bob Taggart.

One the of the best worksites we had was in a city government building maintenance office. It was one of the best, not because of the work - basically general building maintenance - but because of the supervisor, a black man named W who was amazing with the kids. I mean, this guy was incredible. He really understood what we were trying to do with the young people and he really helped many kids over the time I worked with him (until Newt's lock-step House basically ended this program in 1995). At the time, W was in his late forties, probably, or maybe early fifties.

Anyway, I did a lot of driving, especially on days when I'd pick up timesheets so we could pay the kids, and I always liked to visit W.

So one day, I dropped by his office to pick up a kid's timesheet. This was maybe halfway through my day, and I still had a bunch of stops to make.

W asked me if I'd like to have lunch, and I replied, no I can't, I've got a bunch more stops - sorry.

The smile fled W's face and he backed up a step. Said he 'understood.'

I looked at him puzzled, and then with horror realized that he thought I refused because I didn't want to break bread with a black man. That wasn't the case at all, though, and I'd have been happy to have lunch on another day with him. But I didn't say anything because his face had clouded over, closed.

I've felt bad about that for many years now, because it was genuinely a misunderstanding. But be mindful - W was maybe 50 at the time and the year was maybe 1990. So he'd been born during the Jim Crow era and had lived it. He had seen the movement, the freedom riders, the heros who marched across Pettus bridge into vicious dogs, fire hoses and truncheon wielding cops. That was some sick shit, and I'm positive he had been singled out before by racists and had probably suffered because of it.

W is long gone now, and it is me - in my late fifties - telling this story.

If I had it to do over again, knowing what I know now, I would have said, "W, I didn't say 'no' because you're black and I don't want to break bread with you. I said 'no' because I have a bunch more stops to make and I'm in a hurry. Can we take a raincheck?"

I have a feeling that if I'd said that, things could have been OK, but I didn't. I was in my twenties, maybe just 30, and I'm so sorry that I was too freaked out at the time and let this stand. And I'm not blaming W for having a strong reaction, either. He is (was) who he is (was) and was a child of his time and his place of upbringing - which I don't know where.

But I would have been happy to have lunch with him. He turned so many young lives around with his excellent supervision and mentoring that it wasn't even funny. I mean, some of those kids, who came from very poor often dysfunctional families, are now leaders in the community, and I have a feeling that W played a big part in that.

My own take? Well, it is easy to self-justify, wring my hands and simply regret it. W is probably dead now, or quite elderly, and I have no idea where he is. The funny thing is, I've had a pretty solid career and I've genuinely tried to be a good person, to make the world a better place because I've lived. But this one little thing goes with about three or four other little things that are genuine regrets. I have often wished I could live that moment over, and say, "Sure, let's go!"

But I can't.

[LearnedHand]

66. I feel your anguish, PfO

Thank you for your story. You awareness and reflection on the situation from W’s eyes is how we melanin-lacking people can begin to expunge any traces of wypipo-ness and maybe, just maybe, strive for a shred of wokeness. I myself have a very long way to go in identifying my blind spots and default assumptions.

[TCJ70]

58. Understanding flows two ways

You can't take a racial identifier, turn it into an insult, and then be surprised when people of that race give pushback. This seems kind of like gaslighting to me. We already have words for the things encompassed by wypipo:
- Racist
- Bigot
- Apathetic

But now those things are being lumped together under an umbrella term that is just a respelling of white people. These traits aren't limited to any one group of people. There are certainly racist, bigoted, apathetic people of all races. I'm trying to think of what the reaction would be if any other racial identifier were transformed this way. I'm pretty sure we all know it wouldn't be acceptable, as it shouldn't be.

As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing acceptable about race based insults. If you have a different standard, that's on you. But it's OK for people to express their disagreement on it as well. In response to that disagreement with race based insults myself and others have been labelled with this word. Certainly you don't think someone who thinks racial insults aren't OK has earned this label?

[egduj]

61. Every race-based insult has a community where it accepted and often encouraged.

Wypipo has found a home in this community. People have to decide whether a community is for them, even if there are a few neighbors you don't get along with.

I just want to know why wypipo still shows up when I do a spell check.

[TCJ70]

62. You're the first user of the word to at least acknowledge that is a race based insult...

...that I've seen so far so credit for that. How does the acceptance of this racial insult work with the DU rules?

No divisive group attacks
Do not smear, insult, vilify, bait, maliciously caricature, or give disrespectful nicknames to any groups of people that are part of the Democratic coalition, or that hold viewpoints commonly held by Democrats, or that support particular Democratic public figures. Do not imply that they are fake Democrats, fake progressives, conservatives, right-wingers, Republicans, or the like.

Why we have this rule: Substantive disagreement on important issues is always welcome on this website, but our members should not be made to feel unwelcome simply because they hold a different point of view. Democratic Underground welcomes all people who are members of the Democratic coalition, including the full range of center-to-left viewpoints and supporters of all Democratic public figures.

No bigotry/insensitivity
Members are expected to respect diversity and demonstrate an appropriate level of sensitivity when discussing related topics. Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or other forms of bigoted intolerance are not permitted.

Why we have this rule: Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes people of every race, sex, religious belief (or lack thereof), sexual orientation, gender identity, body type, disability, age, etc. We want to promote a welcoming atmosphere for all of our members, and do not want to provide a platform for bigotry.

[Solly Mack]

69. K&R