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Mon Aug 6, 2012, 02:49 PM

I give up. How do you counter

the absolute witches brew of lies, distortions and half truths that the Rethugs and their willing handmaidens in hate radio and RW TV land of Faux spew into peoples' conscious and subconscious over the course of years now?

Had occasion to talk to a young guy who's putting in edging for some flower beds around the house. Turns out he's 20 years old, married a girl who he didn't love at 17 because she had a kid with another guy who left her and had nowhere to turn, is expecting his fourth kid soon and is struggling to start his own edging business. He loved to chat and I wasn't in any hurry. Somehow the topic of the November election came up and he asked me who I was going to vote for - I told him Obama.

He thought about it and then told me, "well, he (Obama)'s OK but I won't vote for him." So I asked him why. "It's because he's adding 14 billions of dollars in defect to the economy every year". I did my best to try to explain to him the deficit Obama was left with because of things like the Bush off-balance sheet wars, Medicare prescription drug expansion, etc, and he seemed to be getting it. But then, when I thought I might have actually made some progress he floored me with "well, it's really because of Obama's Health Plan that was caused when the Congress couldn't pay for the debt last year".

I tried my best to explain to him what had happened with the debt ceiling hostage negotiations last year and the Bush tax cut extensions, but I could see it just wasn't making any impression. What was apparent was that he had ingested a steady stream of RW talking points day after day, year after year and, although he had them all mixed up in his mind and didn't really understand any one of them clearly, what was clear is that his mind was made up. He's voting against Obama. Period.

How do we reach people like this nice kid who's one of the people Obama's policies will MOST help when they've been poisoned with the steady drip-drip of Rethuglican invective? Wish I knew...

13 replies, 2008 views

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Arrow 13 replies Author Time Post
Reply I give up. How do you counter (Original post)
COLGATE4 Aug 2012 OP
jillan Aug 2012 #1
hollysmom Aug 2012 #2
1StrongBlackMan Aug 2012 #8
hollysmom Aug 2012 #9
1StrongBlackMan Aug 2012 #11
hollysmom Aug 2012 #13
JaneQPublic Aug 2012 #3
1StrongBlackMan Aug 2012 #4
sibelian Aug 2012 #5
Motown_Johnny Aug 2012 #6
dballance Aug 2012 #7
SheilaT Aug 2012 #10
just1voice Aug 2012 #12

Response to COLGATE4 (Original post)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 02:52 PM

1. The only hope you would have with him is to show him. Show him graphs, facts.

That is if he is still open minded.

I find alot of rw wackos that I come across are just that, wackos that will only believe what faux told them to believe.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Original post)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 02:56 PM

2. I don't know, some people are giving up

I post on a TV board that has separated out the political fans for the sanity of the rest of the board and we have a mix of conservatives of different levels and everyone i generally polite or they get banned for life. Oddly enough every single person in the political thread is for gay marriage, but then we all branch off into different conversations. Some people quote Truthout, some quote newsbusters. today things got testy because Obama wants to stop the military from voting came up meme again. no matter how much a person disproves it, it keeps coming back. When someone cited Snopes as a valid site to debunk it, the other person started on Snopes is a liberal front.

It is frustrating as hell. I finally told them to look up the exact wording in the suit and then come back to me. I swear people select what they believe on the internet and will constantly use opinion as fact, it is damn frustrating.

The frightening thing is how people do not use critical thinking. Lies work, that is why people lie, even blatant lies wear some down.

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Response to hollysmom (Reply #2)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:20 PM

8. I had this discussion (on-line) earlier today ...

 

today things got testy because Obama wants to stop the military from voting came up meme again. no matter how much a person disproves it, it keeps coming back.



And true to form, "Snope" is a liberal front" and "the media is biased" and so on.

Then I posted this:

COMPLAINT FOR DECLARATORY AND INJUNCTIVE RELIEF
Plaintiffs, by their attorneys, file this complaint against Defendants and allege as follows:
Nature of Action
1. Plaintiffs bring this lawsuit to restore in-person early voting for all Ohioans during
the three days prior to Election Day – a right exercised by an estimated 93,000
Ohioans in the last presidential election. Ohio election law, as currently enacted by
the State of Ohio and administered by Defendant Ohio Secretary of State, arbitrarily
eliminates early voting during the three days prior to Election Day for most Ohio
voters, a right previously available to all Ohio voters. This disparate treatment
violates 42 U.S.C. § 1983 and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and can be rectified by the Court enjoining enforcement of statutory changes that eliminate early in-person voting for most Ohioans during the three days before an election.

2. Specifically, taken together, Amended Substitute House Bill Number 194 (“HB
194”), Amended Substitute House Bill Number 224 (“HB 224”) and Substitute
Senate Bill Number 295 (“SB 295”), all enacted by the 129th Ohio General
Assembly, impose different deadlines for in-person voting prior to Election Day
(“early voting”) on similarly situated voters. Prior to the enactment of these laws,
there was a single uniform deadline of the Monday before Election Day for inperson
early voting. After the enactment of these laws, voters using the Uniformed
and Overseas Citizens Absentee Voter Act (“UOCAVA”) may vote early in-person
at a board of elections office up through the Monday before Election Day, while
non-UOCAVA voters can vote early in-person at a board of elections office (or
designated alternate site) only up until 6 p.m. on the Friday before Election Day.

3. The differential treatment of UOCAVA and non-UOCAVA voters with respect to
early voting appears to be the result of a confused legislative process initiated by the
Ohio General Assembly after citizens of the State commenced the process to subject
HB 194 to a referendum. HB 194 was a 300-page bill passed by a Republicandominated
legislature that limited voting rights in a number of respects, including by
shortening the time period for early voting – an option more likely to be used by
groups of voters that tend to support Democratic candidates. While the referendum petitions on HB 194 were circulating, the Ohio General Assembly passed HB 224 with “technical corrections” to the early in person voting laws. Then, after Ohio
citizens exercised their right to hold a referendum vote on HB 194 by qualifying for the general election ballot, the Ohio General Assembly passed SB 295 to repeal HB 194, but failed to also repeal the corresponding “technical corrections” made by HB 224 in the interim. Whether caused by legislative error or partisan motivation, the
result of this legislative process is arbitrary and inequitable treatment of similarlysituated
Ohio voters with respect to in-person early voting.

4. The Ohio General Assembly has failed to articulate any justification for this
differential treatment of UOCAVA and non-UOCAVA voters, and no justification
can be discerned. Indeed, these different deadlines exist despite the fact that, for
purposes of in-person early voting, both UOCAVA and non-UOCAVA voters are
identically situated, i.e., they are qualified electors who are physically present in
their home county when they desire to vote in-person at their county board of
elections office prior to Election Day.

5. This inequitable approach to early voting will have a significant impact on voters.
Between 2005 and 2011, Ohio successfully administered an early-voting system that
included in-person voting in the three days prior to Election Day. This early voting
system increased participation among voters, including those for whom work or
family obligations make it difficult to vote on Election Day, and reduced the
congestion that caused such severe waits during the 2004 presidential election in Ohio that some citizens were effectively denied the right to vote. Indeed, as noted above, approximately 93,000 Ohioans voted in the three days prior to the 2008
presidential election. Now, as a result of HB 224 and SB 295, most Ohio voters will not be permitted to vote in the three days prior to Election Day for no apparent reason. Without early voting in these last three days before Election Day, tens of thousands of citizens who would have otherwise exercised their right to vote during this time period, including Plaintiffs’ members and supporters, may not be able to
participate in future elections at all.

6. This unequal burden on the fundamental right to vote violates the Equal Protection
Clause of the United States Constitution. Plaintiffs have no plain, adequate, or
complete remedy at law other than the relief requested in this Complaint. Unless the
changes made to Ohio Rev. Code § 3509.03 by HB 224 and SB 295 are enjoined by
this Court, Plaintiffs and the voters they represent will be directly and irreparably
harmed in upcoming elections.

7. For these reasons and those specifically alleged herein, Plaintiffs seek a declaratory
judgment, preliminary injunction, and permanent injunction prohibiting Defendants
from implementing or enforcing the HB 224 and SB 295 changes to Ohio Rev. Code
§ 3509.03, thereby restoring in-person absentee voting on the three days
immediately preceding Election Day for all Ohio voters.

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/documents/ObamaforAmericavHustedcomplaint.pdf


While the Bulletin Board has a "Thumbs Up/Thumbs Down" function, my posting of the actual lawsuit's language has received plenty of TDs, I'm still waiting for someone to restate the lie.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #8)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:32 PM

9. Thanks, I do post links there when I have the time

But getting them to read the links is another story, heh
horse water, old story.

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Response to hollysmom (Reply #9)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:39 PM

11. That's why ...

 

I post snippets of what's in the link. Usually, I post significantly less, but at that particular site, I have been accused of selective editting.

But that said ... Yeah, getting them to read is the real problem.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #11)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:42 PM

13. we have limited quoting at this site,

they have been hit with cease and desist a few to many times and one site sued them. Since hey are teeny and privately run, they discourage quoting.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Original post)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:00 PM

4. I think ...

 

you made more head way than you think.

He said President Obama was "Okay." Then, when you addressed his first "concern", he accepted it and moved to his next "real reason."

But to answer your question, you get through to them by taking the time to talk with them (not at them) and explain how their choices are likely to affect them personally. For example, explaining the benefits of (President) Obama's Health Plan and how people that have had their jobs shipped overseas are unlikely to have someone else edge their lawns.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Original post)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:00 PM

5. People are sinking into a strange introspective fog.


I think it's because the world is becoming too psychologically hostile to bear.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Original post)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:04 PM

6. He saw a TV commercial he didn't understand.

 

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2012/aug/01/crossroads-gps/crossroads-gps-pins-4-billion-day-debt-obama/


^snip^




Both parties share in the blame for the debt that is set to rise down the road as result of enacting expansions in entitlement programs and tax cuts, and for failing to reach an agreement on how to control rising debt.

The economic downturn explains most of the new debt and that began before Obama took office, Gordon said. The tax cuts that have lowered revenue and increased deficits over the last three years have had bipartisan support, as have nearly every spending bill over the last two years.

"So, it is impossible to attribute the debt to any single politician or party," Gordon told PolitiFact. "Furthermore, the increase in debt tells you nothing about what legislative proposals by the candidates would do in the future -- and it is the future debt growth that matters most."

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Response to COLGATE4 (Original post)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:08 PM

7. Try the graphs and facts. But even that doesn't always work.

 

One of the most annoying news stories I've watched in the last year was a reporter interviewing Tea Baggers at one of their rallies in DC protesting the ACA as unconstitutional. The reporter asked several of them what part of the constitution it violated? NONE of them - that's right NONE, NONE, NONE of them could cite an article and section they thought it violated. But they just knew it was unconstitutional. I guess because FAUX news, Hannity, Limbaugh, Beck and their ilk told them it was.

The other startling thing is that none of them seemed to know about or understand the "commerce clause" or "full faith and credit clause." One lady flatly denied that the commerce clause was part of the original constitution despite the fact it clearly is in Article One of the originally ratified constitution. She wouldn't concede to the fact, finally telling the reporter they'd just have to agree to disagree about it being in there.

You can't fight stupid and obstinacy like that.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Original post)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:36 PM

10. Wow. His personal history

 

is that of someone who doesn't think very clearly about things that really matter to him:
20 years old, married a girl who he didn't love at 17 because she had a kid with another guy who left her and had nowhere to turn, is expecting his fourth kid soon

Maybe you ought to find out what kind of health care plan he currently has in place. I'll bet none at all, other than perhaps Medicaid. If you can, over the rest of the summer, just point out to him what Obama and the Democrats have done and will do for him and his family, while showing how they Republicans will do their best to abandon him and his family, then maybe you'll change that voter.

I have a friend, now 70 years old, retired, doing okay in retirement. Her son is married to a right-winger, and lately my friend has taken up telling them that she may well have to move in with them in a few years if Medicare and Social Security get cut. She also tells them how much her medications cost (and she's not on all that many, compared to many her age) and again suggests that they may have to pay for them in a few years. No doubt none of this will change how those two think, but one can hope.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Original post)

Mon Aug 6, 2012, 03:40 PM

12. You are correct to give up, (R)s are resistant to learning by choice

 

You can choose to try to share something but they will ignore it, on purpose. There are too many reasons to list why (R)s do it, most of it is mental illness.

Propaganda is another feature in public discourse, it's been used so well for 100 years it's an art form now, most people can't even tell what is or isn't propaganda. For instance, here's a definition of propaganda, note that if your insert "news" in place of "propaganda" there's no difference in today's media:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

---Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the chosen result in audience attitudes.

As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of political warfare.---

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