Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:21 PM

guillaumeb (26,263 posts)

Claims That ICE Agents Were 'Just Following Orders' Won't Save Them From Liability

From the article:

Claims That ICE Agents Were 'Just Following Orders' Won't Save Them From Liability for Children's Suffering, Legal Scholars Warn...

A new report finds that individual Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents could be held personally liable for the suffering of families and children under the Trump administration's "zero tolerance" immigration policy—and warns that the confirmation of Judge Brett Kavanaugh to the U.S. Supreme Court could harm the chance of anyone being held accountable for the forcible separation of families.

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14 replies	Author	Time	Post
Claims That ICE Agents Were 'Just Following Orders' Won't Save Them From Liability (Original post)	guillaumeb	Jul 11	OP
The Nuremberg defense	vlyons	Jul 11	#1
See my post #2 below (n/t)	PJMcK	Jul 11	#3
But the US considers itself to be above the law.	guillaumeb	Jul 11	#7
I hate to be a pessimist	PJMcK	Jul 11	#2
Things will change after the Nov election	vlyons	Jul 11	#5
I've been an optimist throughout my life	PJMcK	Jul 11	#13
At this point, you are correct.	guillaumeb	Jul 11	#8
The linked article is talking about civil suits by the victims, not criminal prosecutions	Jim Lane	Jul 12	#14
"Just following orders".	smirkymonkey	Jul 11	#4
It does sound familiar.	guillaumeb	Jul 11	#9
Lock them up	malaise	Jul 11	#6
At Guantanamo?	guillaumeb	Jul 11	#10
It would be very bad for the people of Cuba	malaise	Jul 11	#11
True. eom	guillaumeb	Jul 11	#12

Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:28 PM

vlyons (4,440 posts)

1. The Nuremberg defense

Guess they never heard of the Nuremberg trials of the Nazis at the end of WWII. High level Nazis claimed that they were "just following orders" from their superiors. Superior orders defense, aka the Nuremberg defense, did not save them from receiving death sentences.

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Response to vlyons (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:32 PM

PJMcK (7,745 posts)

3. See my post #2 below (n/t)

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Response to vlyons (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 07:25 PM

guillaumeb (26,263 posts)

7. But the US considers itself to be above the law.

And I am certain that Trump would hand out pardons like candy.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:31 PM

PJMcK (7,745 posts)

2. I hate to be a pessimist

Who is going to hold the ICE agents to account? Trump's Department of Justice?

Trump is getting away with destroying our country and the GOP Congress has done nothing to put a check on him. As he commits more crimes, they will tut-tut and move on.

The ICE agents aren't even a blip on the radar scope.

I'm sorry but it seems that everything that happens-- and that Trump does-- is always the worst possible choice.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #2)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:44 PM

vlyons (4,440 posts)

5. Things will change after the Nov election

Assuming that Dems take the House, there will be mucho House congressional investigations into all sorts of Trump era crimes and corruption. Then there's Mueller still quietly working away in the background.

“We must believe that the arc of the universe is long, but that it bends toward justice ..."

- Martin Luther King Jr.

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Response to vlyons (Reply #5)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 10:28 PM

PJMcK (7,745 posts)

13. I've been an optimist throughout my life

These days, not so much.

My pessimism doesn't accept that we'll have fair elections in November. Russians will once again hack our election systems. Republicans will cheat. I'll believe that Democratic candidates will prevail when the votes are counted.

Until then, the future looks bleak.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #2)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 07:26 PM

guillaumeb (26,263 posts)

8. At this point, you are correct.

Guantanamo has been a scandal for many years, and it has also fallen from the radar.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #2)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 12:17 AM

Jim Lane (10,951 posts)

14. The linked article is talking about civil suits by the victims, not criminal prosecutions

The affected families wouldn't need the DoJ's permission, nor would their case depend on the Democrats' taking one house of Congress (although Congressional investigations could certainly help the plaintiffs prove their case).

There are circumstances under which individual federal officers can be required to pay money damages to people whose rights they have violated. The big problem would be that the Trump-ized judiciary, notably the Supreme Court but also many lower courts, would interpret that well-established principle narrowly, or perhaps even overrule it entirely.

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Response to guillaumeb (Original post)

Wed Jul 11, 2018, 06:41 PM

smirkymonkey (35,472 posts)